Do they ALL cheat?

[goochiegirl]

This, actually, is what hurt me the most, out of all the abusive behaviors. When we first started dating, he told me he left his wife (who I know he loved very much) because she cheated on him, and he couldn't bear it. 

Yet he didn't seem to have any problems cheating on me, and couldn't understand how I could make such a big deal out of it! (I got excuses like, "we weren't really serious back then", "it happened because I was drunk", etc.).

Do they all do it?  Why, why, why?

And, if WE were to start seeing other people, would they be horrified and finally leave us alone?

[Liam Ludwig]

Interesting question/thread.

My xBPDgf insisted that I was having affairs, but I never did. She would always say things like "I hate it when people cheat. I've never cheated on any of my boyfriends. It would break my heart if you did and blah blah blah... ."

But, near the end of our relationship, I suspect that she was screwing around on me. Her behavior suggested that she was.

I had a thought - is it possible that at any given time, if in their minds that the relationship is over (or sometime soon will be), even though neither person has 'formally' broke it off, would it not be considered cheating to a BP?

I don't know if they all cheat, but it would not surprise me if they did, since they seem to have all of their ducks in a row, and move from partner to partner so quickly.

[goochiegirl]

I had a thought - is it possible that at any given time, if in their minds that the relationship is over (or sometime soon will be), even though neither person has 'formally' broke it off, would it not be considered cheating to a BP?

I had that thought too. I even thought that perhaps they consider it a convenient way to get out of the relationship. Or to have their back-up plan if they sense the relationship isn't working out.

In my case though, when he cheated on me one year ago, and I found out when I "caught" them, he very dramatically ran after me though I did everything I could to shake him off, and she was trailing behind HIM, sobbing, because he was telling me "she means NOTHING to me" etc.  He called me over 30 times that night, showed up at my door, wouldn't leave until I let him in. I did end up going on vacation a couple of days later, not seeing him for 2 weeks. When I got back and got back together with him, our relationship took off and became better than ever before, and increasingly got better and better, for the next 8 months.  (Prior to the infidelity, we had been together 10 months).

So, in my case, I know he wanted to stay with me. It wasn't a question of him wanting out.

[Hikergal72]

my ex pulled the "my wife cheated on me, so I will never"... .bullsht too! and I know for a fact he was cheating in the end, his back up plan... .found a girl who would give him the one thing i refused to... .a house!  lucky me that he's gone... .grrrr.  So does that initial declaration perhaps constitute a warning that they will cheat?

[John Galt]

Are we talking about do all MEN cheat or do all BPD's cheat?

My answer will fit for both anyway.If the number of men cheating on wives is 37% for example,I think that across nations,religions,mental illnesses,races ,doctors,etc etc etc is always going to be close to that number.

Now ,I know that people are not going to agree with me and I can imagine the answers such as in this country or race or whatever it is more acceptable but I think that only changes the number slightly,a couple of percentage points.

Also, I just know that people will quote one of the 9 criteria being sexual addictiveness or something to that affect,but I still think that would only sway the numbers slightly.

The thing is is that if someone is in a unhappy relationship,and yes with these BPDs' their perception is their reality then they sometimes get involved elsewhere.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Marc

[Monty]

Hikergal, I dont believe that someone telling you that they will never cheat should be seen as a warning. I have made the same claim to past partners and, at 43, have never been unfaithful or even seriously entertained the idea. I think that there are many other red flags that are better indicators that one might be getting involved with a problematic partner.

As for BPs cheating, my XBPGF told me that her ex-husband cheated on her and that is why she left him. Of course I believed her. She said it crushed her and told me that she couldnt imagine how one human being could do such a destructive thing to another. After we broke up for the last time, which has been over a year ago, I found out that she was actually the one who had cheated on him. I also discovered that she had been cheating on me throughout our relationship. In fact, unbeknownst to me, when we first met, she was using me to cheat on her current boyfriend. All this cheating from the one person whom I would have bet anything against, including my own life, would never cheat on or lie to me.

I believe most here will support me when I say that, if you have been involved with someone who has BPD, it is more likely than not that you have been cheated on and lied to, even if you are currently oblivious to it. Its how most with this disorder survive. They are incapable of sustaining appropriate behavior in intimate relationships. What a sad and miserable existence for both partners.

Monty

[deliza]

My ex was always accusing me of cheating, whether I looked at someone, said hello, thought of someone who was the opposite sex, etc. I was his prisoner!  I realize now that he was either cheating on ME, thinking about it, or wanting to.  His stories constantly changed about a so-called "chance meeeting" with his ex before me.  Yeah right!  But then again -- I was ALWAYS the bad guy -- you know, must be nice to gothrough life not taking any responsibility whatsoever for your actions -  WOW ---

d

[goochiegirl]

Are we talking about do all MEN cheat or do all BPD's cheat?

Actually, I am referring to BPDs. Is this something they mostly have in common?

And yes, mine was always accusing me and interrogating me too. Even if a guy opened a door for me, he would get jealous and suspicious. We would have hours-long interrogation sessions about my fidelity.  And I never once was even close to being unfaithful. Hell, I wasn't even thinking about it. I never so much as looked at anyone else, because I was so deeply in love with him that no one could even capture my interest. 

Which makes me wonder...   if you're so in love with someone, (and I KNOW he was with me) then what fascination does anyone else hold?  This is what I don't understand about cheating.  I could understand why someone would be attracted to or infatuated with someone else if they're not that into their partner, but what if they're madly in love with their partner?  How can they stomach having sex with someone else?  How could they even WANT to?  Is that a male/female biological difference?   ?

[karategrrl]

My Ex never cheated... .Instead, she would break up with me... .move out... .and then have her fun. Then came back to me and we would get back together. I had no idea this was going on until the last break up. This was how she justified it in her mind. When we first started dating, she told me she had never cheated on anyone. And in her mind, she never did.

[Jamlad]

I never caught my Ex cheating on me but suspect that she was. She would disappear on her all night benders (leaving me at home with our baby) so she had lots of opportunity.

She was the master at projection and I could identify this even before I knew about BPD. She would accuse me of cheating all the time even though ALL my time was accounted for and it was obvious that I was not cheating. I would make a trip to the corner store to buy milk and she would wonder if I was having an affair during the 10 minutes it took me to make the trip. If an attractive woman walked by she would grill me about my intensions towards the woman. I would keep my eyes to the ground in fear that I may be caught glancing in an inappropriate direction.

Crazy Making!... .good times.

[trapptdad]

jamlad

I know what your talking about.  I have tried looking in the other direction in hopes of avoiding confrontation. It doesnt work.  She gets mad and says "go ahead and look, I know you would if i werent here!"

I have also spent many hours trying to defend every minute of my day to her so that she would believe me that i wasnt cheating.  It never satisfied her, she would just jump to something else that i did wrong.

As far as the projection goes i havent figured her out yet.  She has been adamant that she would never cheat on me. She used to go out 3-4 times per week to bars with her friends. I stopped going because i got sick of being accused of want to f--- every pretty girl in the bar.  It got to the point that i would have to call her in the morning to come home so i could go to work.  4 years into that behavior she woke me at 3 am with tears in her eyes saying she had something to tell me.  Well, you can understand what i thought was coming next, but i was floored when she told me she had been doing drugs not cheating.

I never thought she would be capable of that and now i am not so sure i believe her when she claims fidelity. I still give her the benefit of the doubt. not that she would ever extend that courtesy to me.  I have learned that anything is possible with her.

anyway didnt mean to hijack the post. just decrapping my mind (if thats a word)

[JoannaK]

My answer will fit for both anyway.If the number of men cheating on wives is 37% for example,I think that across nations,religions,mental illnesses,races ,doctors,etc etc etc is always going to be close to that number.

Now ,I know that people are not going to agree with me and I can imagine the answers such as in this country or race or whatever it is more acceptable but I think that only changes the number slightly,a couple of percentage points.

Also, I just know that people will quote one of the 9 criteria being sexual addictiveness or something to that affect,but I still think that would only sway the numbers slightly.

The thing is is that if someone is in a unhappy relationship,and yes with these BPDs' their perception is their reality then they sometimes get involved elsewhere.

Ruthless, in a mental illness that is marked by severe problems with intimacy and often sexual impulsiveness, the percentage of people with this mental illness who cheat will be astronimically higher than the "average". ? With BPD, we're not just talking about the color of someone's skin, we're talking about an all encompassion personality disorder that manifests itself in severe social problems. ?

Having said that, I don't believe that all with BPD cheat. ? I think that many do not cheat, but I think that the cheating is wayyy over the norm.

I think that many people start to cheat when the relationship is breaking down, so just because someone cheats at the end, it doesn't mean that they are BPD. ? My exh did not cheat until the bitter end... .I'm 99.99999% sure of that. ? But he was a very probably NPD/BPD-ish type (not diagnosed). ? A bf that I dated for 3 years in my 20's cheated at the bitter end. ? But I still see him as a good guy... .not a BPD/NPD-ish bone in him. ? But our relationship was disintegrating and neither of us could make that final split. ?

So we have to be careful not to mix apples and oranges when we talk about BPD behavior and cheating.

[Skippy]

link=topic=37997.msg350895#msg350895 date=1129267596]

I had a thought - is it possible that at any given time, if in their minds that the relationship is over (or sometime soon will be), even though neither person has 'formally' broke it off, would it not be considered cheating to a BP?

This "in her mind" seemed to apply to a lot of things including cheating, being "broken up"... .even getting married... .

She announced to her familiy we were getting married... .at the time, she wasn't speaking to me.

What was wierd (as this may have topped the wierds) is that the "getting married"  had everything to do with her and she really didn't even feel she was missing the part where we shared the moment together... .

"In her mind"... .

[djbett]

My ex had a lot of issues, but never cheated on me. ? My ex was never worried about me cheating. ? My problem was the opposite... where my ex was very attached to me, relied on me, etc... .so no cheating.

[goochiegirl]

Oh God, that is just TOO bizarre, Skip! But, what's even more bizarre is that this doesn't surprise me in the least bit?  Because mine would do this kind of stuff too?  And I would just spend hours over the course of our relationship, thinking about this stuff:?  basically in my own thoughts, thinking about the way his mind works - as if I were watching a fascinating kaleidescope, or as if I were watching the scene of a grisly accident and I couldn't bear to look, nor could I bear to look away - it was too astonishing.?  That's how I view his mind, his mental processes... just fascinating to me.

I think that was a big part of my attraction to him too... because I LOVE complexity... I have an insatiable mind, and a deep thirst for knowledge.?  I always have to be learning, researching, solving some "mystery" of life.?  It's relentless.?  He provided me with a lot of material!


(BTW, love your new tagline?  Made me laugh hysterically?  ? )

[talion]

I don't think that my ex ever cheated on me.  She did like to joke (don't think it was joking anymore) about having a "plan B" should we fall through.  So I think she definitely had somebody waiting in the wings but unless I was absolutely oblivious to it I don't think she ever did anything while we were together.

[John Galt]

I know what you mean Joannak but... .I think that it really is closer to the norm than one would think.I think that if I took an informal poll here asking nons if there BPD s.o. did not cheat,or did not think they cheated,we would get lots of ''no's'' as well.

In those 9 criterea 1 point is the sexual,gambling,drinking,drug thing that people use to escape reality,but sex is only 1 of those ''escapes''

I do understand your point about the intimacy part of this disorder and really,I am not trying to justify the fact that I do not believe my wife has not cheated on me(maybe I'm wrong,but I do not think so).I just really think that the numbers are closer to the norm than closer to ''just about all BPD's'' based on everyones personal experiences.

Just one mans belief,

Marc

[lennic]

In the waves of folks who come aboard our community this issue is a fixture. So many feelings are attached to acts of infidelity and bottom line... .it hurts. The act itself and the immediate slap accross the structure of established trust is paralizing but then the images begin to be created surrounding the act. This is a slow death. And each image we create gets associated with a feeling... .generally destructive.

I have been on both sides of the act so I can't claim some sanctimonious position on the sinful nature of infidelity. It is always wrong... .but despite that reality there are aspects to the "process" that can be understood. And it is more a process than an event. There is a sense of infidelity prior to a commission. A participant in the union is flawed or the union itself is dysfunctional. In my case, I was flawed and attempted to find sollace from a problem by creating one. Obviously, things only got worse. But that is another story.

My XBP cheated... .several times. As a matter of fact, the monkeys are still falling from the tree many months later. I am still informed about liasons with new "gentlemen" from time to time. And each time it hurts. But as the list grows longer the nature of my hurt has changed. Along with this lengthening list came a more complete understanding of the nature of Borderline suffering and associated behavior. I now hurt for her. She literally has no choice.

I remember like it was yesterday the first time this powerfully destructive issue entered our relationship. She got drunk on Superbowl Sunday... .met a fellow hard consumer, went home with him, and screwed like banchies. The following day after she didn't show up to the studio, I called and called. No answer. Finally in the early afternoon, she called and asked me to come over. She sounded terrible.

On entering her bedroom she was curled in a fetal position with the covers tight up under her chin. She looked far worse than she sounded. Hungover, bloated, and a crying face.  You know that face that is swelled by many tears and the rubbing that follows. The only real bad part of crying as far as I'm concerned, but that is just me.

"What's wrong?" I asked.

"Something terrible Lenny"... she wimpered.

"What is it... .tell me. Did somebody die?" I implored.

"No".

"Then what XXXX, what could it possibly be? A DUI? An Accident?"

"No... .worse"... .she responded.

I looked at her and I knew. I was rubbing her forehead now while sitting on the edge of the bed.

"It was a man wasn't it?" I was able to ask already knowing the answer.

She looked at me and hesitated before nodding yes,,and tears began to leak from her eyes again.

I stopped rubbing her head and began to rub mine. Not saying anything... .just rubbing my head with my elbows on my knees.

"Why?" I asked.

"I have to find a way to stop loving you." she said between tears.

"Why?" I said again.

"Because it hurts to much"... she said quietly."Can you forgive me Lenny?" she added.

"Why do you want my forgiveness if you don't want my love?" I asked heartbroken.

"Because this hurts worse"... .she finished.

In that exchange the true nature of the borderline is completly revealed. The pain that intimacy expects overwhelms them. Any solace, any escape is preferrable to the fear of losing this love. And then when it is pushed over the edge they frantically clamor to reach for the fading hand. It is living hell.

I learned much about what we were against that day. I forgave her and truely tried to understand a way for her to let go of her all definning fear. In the many months that followed I would try many ways. None worked. The hand that she reached for finally faded away.

When I left her that day I knew how hard all of it was for her. In the end she tried to use Truth to push me away. It didn't work that day... .but one day it did.

I turned to her as I left that day and said.

"That was the classiest thing I ever saw anybody do. I know you don't think so but it was."

Lenny 

[Bigbob]

 Do they all cheat? Hum, the jury's out on that one----how about this., Would anyone consider this cheating?

One fine day, my wife starts to rage at me for absolutely nothing. I see the storm brewing, so I leave. I went to a bar in town, sat by myself & had a drink.

The next thing I knew, the bartender comes over to me and says, Say isn't that your girlfriend/wife at the end of the bar?"

I was mortified---she tracked me down to find me, and was talking w/several strangers pretending I wasn't there. When I first confronted her I asked "what are yoou doing here"--her reply was "hey, no one said I can't go out for a drink".

THEN, I go back to my seat for 5 minutes then i turn around, and now I see her Flirting w/two strange guys!(One them she later claims was an old childhood friend of her sons'

Pissed to no end, I walk up to where they're sitting and i said really fhitg loud--"excuse  me, do you know my WIFE?" She just smiled at me, nad the guy said, "Actually no, hey, I'm so & so" (to my wife), and they keep talking.

I walk out, 'cause I was about to "rumble".

Here's the worst---I find her car at Another bar till closing time. I wait secretly till I see her coming out of the bar, holding the same guy's hand, laughing and all happy & sht---till I pull right up on them and I hear her say "Oh x-x-x-x, it's my husband!"

I nearly went to jail that night---I almost killed them both---all I saw was red. We didn't fight, but he didn't get in her car either, which is right where he was headed. She was really scared and very drunk.

You want to know what my "concellation"was the next day just before I left her?---

She cried and cried and said "Oh I'm so sorry Bob, but I didn't Fhit him I swear!"

Would you call that cheating?

p.s. we're married

[goochiegirl]

In that exchange the true nature of the borderline is completly revealed. The pain that intimacy expects overwhelms them. Any solace, any escape is preferrable to the fear of losing this love. And then when it is pushed over the edge they frantically clamor to reach for the fading hand. It is living hell.

Wow. I had no idea. So, if I'm correct in understanding this, BPDs can't bear to not be in a relationship, but neither can they stand the pain of being in one?  It is too intense for them?

[brucey]

My experience was nearly the opposite of what happened to Lenny.  My ex loves carrying on illicit affairs, sees nothing wrong with them, adamantly denies that she is cheating, but eventually dumps her "true love" and "soulmate" and moves in with the next victim.  She feels no remorse.  In fact, she said to me, "I guess I got it from my mother.  I need to jump from boyfriend to boyfriend."  Except I was not her "boyfriend."  I was her fiance with whom she had lived for two years.  And before me, she had a husband.  When she was done with me she happily took her golf clubs and went golfing with her new "boyfriend."  Since then I have seen her with two other men.  She does not fear being dumped, she is not afraid of abandonment, she does not follow other common behaviors of borderlines, though she is a cutter and makes suicide gestures.  But she is a major cheater and admits that she loves illicit affairs.  It is the illicit or secretive nature of these affairs that she is attracted to.  She is not doing it to escape from intimacy or to move toward intimacy.  She likes having men adore her and be sexually attracted to her.  She studies movies like Lolita and Poison Ivy.  She is histrionic in addition to borderline.

[kevincar]

[---]

lucky me that he's gone... .grrrr.  So does that initial declaration perhaps constitute a warning that they will cheat?

Well, I for one think that cheating is one of the signs of many personality disorders.  But I'm not really qualified to make that assumption;  I just suspect that it's so. 

I could never, EVER take the responsibility of the effects that occurr in a comitted relationship  from the effects of cheating- they will usually last the lifetime of those that have been cheated upon and the children that live in the house... .I know this first hand.

A BPD will cheat, and then justify the behavior by saying

"... .the relationship was rotten WAY before I cheated on my SO... ."  This is how the BP justifies his/her behavior... .they will run the relationship into the ground because they SAY the relationship is run into the ground-  rather than try to work things out.  ... .With THAT being said, I guess you could place cheating as one of the syptoms for narcissistic PD, Oppositional-defiant PD and prolly antisocial PD, and a lot more.

WHY they cheat?  I think because they know it's so dangerous and hurtful, that it consequently is the shortest road to Personal power inside the relationship.

I can actually sympathize with how they must feel:  They have such powerful internal insight into their own personal pain, but they have zero insight into their own external bahavior- coupled with their perception (usually wrong) that we know nothing of their internal pains.

But add on top of all of this the fact that there isn't anything we can do to change their opinions, and sooner or later, they're going to cheat.

Sorry to ramble so-  but it's a great thread.

kevin

[zenguy]

Lenny

That is a great piece of writing, and really great insight. I guess that I feel that such behavior is still a choice on their part. They chose to do what they do, and when it doesnt go well, they move on to greener turf, to repeat the learned behavior again.  Sure they are compelled to act out that way, but my BPD was able to muster restraint when it behooved her. But again, there are many levels of functionality associated with the disorder, and its not wise to generalize or compare.

[lennic]

Hi.

Bigbob.

Yes it was. She used the attentions of another to escape some set of feelings... .either for you or of her. Sad. Seems you responded but not in kind.

Goochie.

Yes. You seldom ever see a borderline alone by choice. Sometimes certain circumstances will limit or eliminate their ability to create a relationship but if they can they will. If love enters the picture... .the paint begins to run.

Brucey.

Yes I do agree that your EX does seem to get some joy from her antics. Her Histronic overlay might include vengence aspects to her abandonment issues. She seems nitorious.

Kevincar.

I admire your position on infidelity. I don't believe I am personality disordered but will admit that my alcoholism certainly made it's mark.

Also denial/justification mechanisms are aspects to all negative behaviors. Think on what folks tell themselves about smoking or driving while drunk.

Zenguy.

I seldom use the broad brush on descrbing anything and I concurr that generalities are nearly useless. But compare I do... .it helps in establishing baselines. My experience with borderlines leads me to believe that many of their fear driven behaviors are like blinking. We can consciously resist blinking but we will blink sooner or later.

[Rufio24]

Personally I think if they truely are bp then YES they all cheat and lie.  Its almost unavoidable, its in their programming to be charming, seductive and rack up another victim in their stable.  I've read somewhere that to bp's when their partner isn't there, they convientently forget about them, "outta sight outta mind."

I think cheating has everything to do with the disorder itself and little to do with them not loving in the non in their own way.  But to them because of their checkered childhood, where rape, molesation & beatings were most likely the norm, they use cheating as a defensive strategy to avoid emotions they don't know how to deal with and don't want to deal with.

Having random sex fills many things that fall within the traits of BPD.  It fills their spur of the moment outside the box thinking, it fills their need for excitement and sex as we all know is a feel good activity.  IMHO cheating for borderlines is much more likely once the problems have arised real or imagined in their current relationship and will continue from that point on.  The fact that they can act so loving and caring in the midst of all the cheating is usually what destroys the non since the emotions are in full circle.

I find it really hard to believe for the nons here who have said they are positive their BPD partner didn't cheat on them.  There is NO WAY you could know what they were up to when you weren't around.  Not to say that you couldn't be right, but lets just say the chances of them cheating are about as likely as the sun coming up tomorrow.



Sunny

[Oy-vey!]

I had a gut feeling that he was cheating on me, but I had no positive proof (didn't catch them or see them together).  There were many late night private phone conversations between the two.  Many later than usual nights home from tennis or work.   I seriously suspected it - and in Ann Landers-like thinking fashion - therefore it was most likely true.

My S.O.'s BPDxW accused S.O. constantly of cheating on her.  I doubt that he had enough energy to even clean out his car at the end of the day while he was married to her, let alone try to carry on an affair and run a start-up business. 

His perspective is that she was likely cheating on him.  She had quite the reputation of projecting her behaviors onto him.

This topic also brings up other types of 'cheating'.  Emotional infidelity is something that comes to mind immediately.  I think ALL people BPD commit emotional infidelity.  They are incapable of being emotionally true in any way shape or form.

[been there]

?  No, not all those who suffer from BPD cheat, altough some do.

? It depends more on the person, and what else might be co-morbid with BPD.

?  If cheating was one of the defining traits of BPD, there would be more people then 2% diagnosed.

?  Mark

[GlassTower]

Do they all cheat?  Who knows.  The personality type certainly fosters it.  I know my BPxh would carry on as though I had conducted an affair, if I had been seen in public with another man.  It didn't matter if it was our minister, he would say that anyone seeing us might not know that it was our minister and would assume the worst.  You would think that our not doing anything at all suspicious looking in public would certainly avoid that, but to a BP, whatever they have in their hearts they project onto us.  In the end he was carrying on affairs with women he met on the internet and finally decided that it was inconvenient being married and he wanted his freedom so he could run around without even having to pretend to be faithful.

[KeithJ]

Are we talking about do all MEN cheat or do all BPD's cheat?

Which makes me wonder... ?  if you're so in love with someone, (and I KNOW he was with me) then what fascination does anyone else hold?  This is what I don't understand about cheating.?  I could understand why someone would be attracted to or infatuated with someone else if they're not that into their partner, but what if they're madly in love with their partner?  How can they stomach having sex with someone else?  How could they even WANT to?  Is that a male/female biological difference?  ? ?

Goochiegirl:?  I don't think its a male/female thing.?  I never would even consider cheating on my love (and trust me I get enough looks that I could), even when things were not going right.?  She's the one that went out, found someone and lined them up, then let me know about it after the fact.?  Then lead me on for weeks saying she wasn't interested in them, while through my own little investigative expertise found out she was a lying, cheating wench.?  So no, it's not a male/female thing.?  Probably most, if not all, BPDs pretty much cheat and lie, some in their own little unique way.?  Mine probably cheated on her ex before me, with me.?  I have no evidence, but what I understand and know now, I wouldn't doubt it.?  

I still have trouble thinking of being with someone else emotional and physically because I still feel in love with the woman, or fallacy of a woman my ex was a year ago.?  I'm still in love with that person, though I know that she is not that woman.?  And the fact she cheated on me reminds me that she is not the one for me.?  It will take time I know.

[lisasport]

I dated my pd for two years. He said how much he loved me and wanted to get married found out he cheated the whole time