Do NONs create/enable BPs? [1950f3 replies to Jerryz]

[Depression = 72% of members]

Do NON's create BPD's?

  - a question posed by 1950fs

original text /no edits - click above to visit original thread

here  goes.

maybe you are not looking from your BPD side, but your non side. everyone here seems to feel the nons are great and the BPD's are saintan spawns.  but the BPD's go through buckets of normal people that say "yea you may be a hot nut case, you are still a nut case and I  don;t need that in my game."  even though, they all seem to be able to find themselves a non or we would not be here. I have to say, and I don't mean this in a negative way, I searched BPD when I thought my wife may have it, but what I learned here is I HAD contracted  non! and nons are not right either.  there is something in nons that allow them to stay here and talk about this and complain but not really ever be normal. and I know this is a place for growth and working on becoming a secondary non.  but finding these women atractive may just be that you are a hardened non.  BPD's cannot exist without nons and nons need their BPD's or we may just be discussing the world cup instead of the prospect of your 6th wife. again I say this truely out of love. 

if anything I think you being a non is more of the problem here them you being a BPD'er I mean think about it everyone here feels veminously about BPD, but you have the oprutunity to take out BPD one at a time by not being a non, their condition cannot exist without you or someone like you(all). and if you have been in 5 relatiionships, all with BPD you know the dance well, at this point you could fesably teach that dance to a outsider, and make your own BPD bride. I did this with my wife, my inlaws are a high functioning non/BPD couple, my wife saw them as perfect, she had some tendancy but not much. I went to her father for advice becasue she saw their relatioship as perfect, and I thought that is what she wanted, he tought me to be a non, which in turn threw my wife into full crazy BPD. had I stayed myself and stood up, and did all the things that were me (I hated taking his advise but I was hoodwinked into believing it was the way)she  would not be a totally full blown BPD today. I know this for sure.

again this is in love and I only mean to share my experince to further explore the relatioship between these two personality types. and good luck

- 1950f3 [/size]

[Skippy]

Do NON's create BPD's?

  - a question posed by 1950fs

original text /no edits - click above to visit original thread

here  goes.

maybe you are not looking from your BPD side, but your non side. everyone here seems to feel the nons are great and the BPD's are saintan spawns.  but the BPD's go through buckets of normal people that say "yea you may be a hot nut case, you are still a nut case and I  don;t need that in my game."  even though, they all seem to be able to find themselves a non or we would not be here. I have to say, and I don't mean this in a negative way, I searched BPD when I thought my wife may have it, but what I learned here is I HAD contracted  non! and nons are not right either.  there is something in nons that allow them to stay here and talk about this and complain but not really ever be normal. and I know this is a place for growth and working on becoming a secondary non.  but finding these women atractive may just be that you are a hardened non.  BPD's cannot exist without nons and nons need their BPD's or we may just be discussing the world cup instead of the prospect of your 6th wife. again I say this truely out of love. 

if anything I think you being a non is more of the problem here them you being a BPD'er I mean think about it everyone here feels veminously about BPD, but you have the oprutunity to take out BPD one at a time by not being a non, their condition cannot exist without you or someone like you(all). and if you have been in 5 relatiionships, all with BPD you know the dance well, at this point you could fesably teach that dance to a outsider, and make your own BPD bride. I did this with my wife, my inlaws are a high functioning non/BPD couple, my wife saw them as perfect, she had some tendancy but not much. I went to her father for advice becasue she saw their relatioship as perfect, and I thought that is what she wanted, he tought me to be a non, which in turn threw my wife into full crazy BPD. had I stayed myself and stood up, and did all the things that were me (I hated taking his advise but I was hoodwinked into believing it was the way)she  would not be a totally full blown BPD today. I know this for sure.

again this is in love and I only mean to share my experince to further explore the relatioship between these two personality types. and good luck

- 1950f3 [/size]

[Skippy]

Hi "1950"

You raise a number of questions in your recent post, most notably, do/can NONs create BPDs?

My initial reaction is that you may be blaming yourself, unrealistically, for the BP relationship problems - you feel that had you conducted yourself differently, things would not have gone "bad".  You cite the fact that things were better until you began to mimic your gFs NON-father (married to her BPD mom).

From my understanding, I would say to you that BPD is not at all a temporary or transient state - only the acting out is transient. 

BPD is a way of processing  what is happening in life and if she has BP or had significant BP tendencies, this all pre-dated your involvement with her.  The fact that her Mom is BP is at least circumstantial that an unhealthy upbringing was likely.

Can someone enable BP behavior (not BP) - I think that is very true.  There has to be a target for deflection, for the black/white. Some personality types or behaviors will catalyze higher incidence or more extreme episodes of acting out.  This is true in any relationship combinations.

But is the opposite true?  Can certain personality types cause the acting out to stop... .or cause the BP to go away... .nothing I've read or experienced suggests or hints this at any level.

There may be a cause and effect relationship between your "change" and her acting out or it may just be coincidental.  Behaviour tends to surface after time or with "events".

==================================


You also suggest the NONs suffer more than BPs (therefore - you would be better to be a BP).

This is an interesting point... .and may very well be true in the short term (2-5 years)... .or in cases of a "hardened" NON, as you call them, which I assume you to mean repeaters (repeat BP relationships).

I guess it really comes down to recovery skills - are you (am I) a transient NON or a "hardened" NON.  And I would agree with you... .

==================================

And I guess your last point (I think), is that all of the bashing of BPs and the NON self pity are sign of increasing "harden-ness", or "harden-ness" tendencies... .not recovery. 

I think you have a point here too... .although this is one of magnitude.  A reasonable amount of anger, indignation, even self pity is part of the recovery process.  But there is a magic point where you cross over and start to move more toward "hardened" NON than recovered citizen.

Thoughtful ideas.  Just some comments, back to you.

It's non you, 1950, that caused the problem.  Maybe you could have managed it better, but if she is BP, you are past that point.  And you are right to think that recovery is not to disparage her for months on a message board.  You've got to go a lot deeper than that and if you feel like you "contracted" NON... .its a good sign that you realize that you are nearing the crossover point.  Just knowing means you probably won't go over.

Skippy

[JMR]

I don't think a non can "create" a BPD.  By definition, the disorder must exist over a period of time, and present itself in a variety of contexts.  I have also never heard of any normal personality developing the condition as an adult; being a personality disorder, its roots come from the initial development of one's personality, which happens long before one has intimate adult relationships.

there is something in nons that allow them to stay here and talk about this and complain but not really ever be normal. and I know this is a place for growth and working on becoming a secondary non.  but finding these women atractive may just be that you are a hardened non.  BPD's cannot exist without nons and nons need their BPD's or we may just be discussing the world cup instead of the prospect of your 6th wife. again I say this truely out of love.

 

I think the first part of this statement comes form the somewhat skewed perspective presented by a forum like this.  I'm sure lots of nons come here, complain, grow, look at themselves and become normal. . . and stop posting after a time.  We just see a snapshot of people's lives.

With regard to the idea that "BPD's cannot exist without nons. . . ," I disagree. Their personalities are not dependent on ours, and would exist regardless. I do agree, however, that a number of us are "enabling" types who unwittingly help perpetuate their problems.

[brucey]

Nons encourage and feed bps, but don't create them.

Bps learn their behaviors because they work.

I would much rather be my ex than be me.  She is happy, gets what she wants, has no guilt, and has no penalties.  She can get any man she wants (and she does), and feels no remorse or regret when jumping from one to another.  She uses people indiscriminantly, and is happy about it.  She enjoys it.  It is more than a great hobby, it is her career.  She has a much, much, much better life than I do.

[Skippy]

I would much rather be my ex than be me... .She has a much, much, much better life than I do.

Interesting thought Bruce... .but you could be her.

Target older women (with money) and preferably at some point of vulnerability - death, or divorce. 

Work really hard for a year or two establishing trust and being Mr. Wonderful.  You have to be willing to sacrifice what you like to do and totally adopt everything she does and be good at it.  Do you like Big Band music... .and chick flicks?  You need to emerse yourself in whatever it is she likes.  Maybe you can have a weeekend movies marathon with all Alan Alda flict - she loves him.

When you have her reeled in then slowly start to pout and say you need more or you're leaving.  See what she will ante up to bring peace back into her life.  Let it ride a bit then do it again.  Be sure to nuke her birthday... .tell her the next day that she is the love of your life... .that really works great... .cheap rings are a winner too.

Take what you get and start over with someone else... .maybe the new girl likes Bing Crosby and bird watching. Need to get those cool shorts.

Sounds great! ;==

Skippy



PS Please - no Scuds from Alan Alda, Bing Crosby, and Big Band fans.  It's all meant in the spirit of fun.  Same for older women with younger men, bird watchers, recent widows, and people with unconventional shorts.

[brucey]

Well, I know you are being sarcastic, Skip, but the life you described would be better than mine.  The catch is that I can't do what you joked about.  First, I wouldn't be able to carry it off because I wouldn't be feeling it.  My ex is not faking.  She really feels it with each man.  Second, I would have a guilty conscience about what I was doing.  My ex does not.  She is content with what she does and even rationalizes it (She wrote an essay in high school in which she argued that a person should never pass up a sexual opportunity or they would regret it later in life -- I saw this after she left me).  My ex watches movies about young sexy girls seducing older men.  She enjoys it.  I would simply be faking if I did that.  Third, there are no older women who would be interested in me.  I have tried to get dates.  It doesn't work.  So, although you were being sarcastic, Skip, I really would like such a life IF: 1) I liked what I was doing; 2) I had no guilt or remorse; 3) There were no penalties or admonishments; 3) It worked and I got what I wanted.

My ex is not a typical borderline.  She is part narcissist and part antisocial and a lot histrionic.  Since she is young, thin, beautiful, bubbly, educated, and sexy, she has it made in our society.  I would love that.  She is having a great life, can do anything she wants, and enjoys it.  Seriously, I'd much, much rather be her than me.

[splitzville]

brucey, c'mon

really?

i kinda know what you mean

mine is lazy, selfish and self absorbed, and yet its like he has some sort of charm, i mean really good luck, and people favor him.

the thing about the original subject-

apparently you can be a strong trigger for behavior, but still not be the cause of the bp?

my bf says (and ive spoken to ex's and friends)

that he;s never been like this with ANYONE else

which of course makes me feel like im horrible, or deserve it, or created it somehow

he says hes been normal, and yeah he was a little strange b4 we dated, but never screaming, throwing things, crazy man.

did i make him this way?

seems like hes calmer when im not around.


the other thing is hes never been diagnosed, or seen a therapist

makes me think im that frustrating to him, and i made him nuts... .

[bewildered2]

Brucey,

Wow, I feel for you.

At least my ex-BPGF is very unhappy, has been in therapy at least four times, has had suicidal thoughts, and has been on anti-depressants. You wouldn't know it if you met her in a bar, at least I didn't! I thought she was a great fun sexy together girl and you would too.

All this should make me feel sorry for her, but at the moment, and given all the pain she has put me through, I am really glad because I know that despite the good act that she is fundamentally unhappy. And she is just a Borderline slut, nothing more, nothing less.

Bear this in mind, Borderlines are good actors. Don't be so sure that your ex isn't putting on an Academy Award level performance.

Some 8-10% of Borderlines commit suicide (I've read). And I've also read that people who commit suicide often appear to be very happy, even to their closest acquaintances. I'm not saying she is a candidate, but she fooled you once, maybe she is still fooling you... .and others around her.

I would not be envious of anyone with a mental illness. Nor should you.

You come across as sane, sensitive, intelligent. Stick a personal ad in the local paper that says "great, sane, sensitive guy (allergic to nuts) looking for female equivalent" and see what you get.

Don't wallow in the post-OZ quagmire. The best form of revenge is to live well. Make an effort and don't give up. You deserve it.

B2     

[JMR]

Well, brucey, I believe my dog enjoys his life, too, but. . . .  The person you describe lives a life without ever feeling genuine love, which is nothing I would envy.  I don't regret the love I felt for my BPD x, despite the pain it caused, and wouldn't want a life without such feelings.

[Skippy]

First, I wouldn't be able to carry it off because I wouldn't be feeling it.  My ex is not faking.  She really feels it with each man.  Second, I would have a guilty conscience about what I was doing... .

JMR... .I might like being my dog,  but thats another story, another time  :

Bruce... .Yes, I was being sarcastic... .hopefully not in bad taste. 

There is no question in my mind that what a BP does works for them.  That is why they do it... .it simply works.  And as you point out, you wouldn't do it - you would be concerned about the consequences to yourself and others.  This small point is likely a huge dividing line between the two... .

Everyone here... .in some ways, it is true, the BP partners seem like they survived better than we did.  I'm sure, in my case, there was laughter and smiles and peace of mind during the same weeks that I was paining my way through the early stages of NC.  But I know she hurt too... .she had a dream too and reality crushed it... .and unrealitic or not... .it hurt her badly... .and she defended against the pain it in her way... .she deflected, she sub'd for me... .she didn't let it shut her down.

I do want to point out that what you are saying Bruce (and some others are thinking for sure) is pretty much 1950f3's premise... .that we come here (or where-ever else we go) and become "hardened - Nons"... .And if that is the case, as he says, we would have been better off to have been the BP in the relationship... .which, when compared to being a "hardened NON" is like choosing bewteen a bad apple or a bad banana in the fruit basket.

Everytime I read a BP bash from those that go on with it over and over (this is a general statement), I can't help but feel that more of that "ugly" is spilling on to their life - BP is gone and not reading here - they are just contracting advanced, possibly terminal "NON".  Being angry and feeling sorrry for yourself is part of recovery (and I read that often here), but eventually rolling that energy into something more positive is how that energy can be best channeled... .not left unchecked and consumming.

One thing the BP has better than many of us  -  survival skills.  Not a one of them stressed over the fact that there are not other, good potential partners in the world.

To this point, they see more reality than we... .but we can catch up.

Skippy

PS:  OK, JMR, I'll share with you my secret desire to be a canine off line... .8)

[suncleap]

Now, THAT is what the Doctor ordered! 

It is a good thing I have lost the anger that gave me strength.  It is now just futility in motion.  I am just empty now.  I feel like Luke Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi's spirit is telling me to "let go of my feelings---feel the Force... .anger is a path to the dark side!"

Then when the ghost stabs me with the invisible knife of fear, Yoda tells me ":)on't give in to fear!  Fear leads to ANGER, anger leads to hate, hate leads to SUFFERING"

Thanks for the good words about anger 1950f3!

[splitzville]

speaking of star wars,

darth vader is so borderline,

i mean same thing

close to padme, fear of that, pushing her away, turning to the dark side,

now he spreads darkness wherever he goes... .

and yes we as nons, must be strong jedis... .

[JoannaK]

Suncleap, yep, anger can be a very good thing, a very necessary part of healing.  We were treated like dirt by the BPD people in our lives.  The expression "pearls before swine" came to me over and over as I was considering my marriage and making plans to get out.  Most of us have repeated tossed our pearls before swine, and watched those pearls get trampled into the dust.  We have an absolute right to be angry; we need to be angry.  And then we need to move on.

It's funny, but I was just reading some intro posts and my first thought to all of them was "You've got to be kidding, right?"  As in, why are you even in this relationship and why can't you see it as it is?  This has got to be a joke post, right?  Is it April Fool's Day?

So, with that thought, I will say that a BPD is a BPD is a BPD.  The disordered thoughts, feelings, and actions that mark a BPD person as a BPD stem from either trauma in childhood and/or a biological/genetic predisposition to the emotional problems of BPD.  It has nothing to do with having a "non" in his/her life.

So nons certainly do NOT create BPD people.

Now, do nons enable them?  Could a BPD person be "normal" if he/she wasn't attached to an enabling, passive, sniffling, rescuing, victim-type non?  Well, most won't "attach" to anybody but either an abusive creep or an enabling, passive, sniffling, rescuing, victim-type non.  We seem to think that the BPD's in our lives are so compelling that they can get anyone they want.  This is simply not true.  Most healthier people will not be pursuing (or allow themselves) to be pursued by BPD types... .or they will leave as soon as they see crazy, difficult behaviors.  Read through the intro posts... .read through people's descriptions of the early stages of their relationships... .read through the circumstances of their relationships.  Most here walked into a spider's web.  People here have taken on people without jobs, people without assets, people without homes, people who came up to them in a bar and asked "wanna ___?", people who were 20 years younger or 20 years older, people who were strippers, people who smoked a lot of dope, people who were in AA, people who were still involved with someone else (or people who got involved with them while they were still involved with someone else).  Then they wonder why the mess didn't work out?  Hello!  It was doomed from the start!  Most of these situations weren't normal from the getgo, but they were very, very typical of BPD relationships.

About the specific situation in question... . 

I did this with my wife, my inlaws are a high functioning non/BPD couple, my wife saw them as perfect, she had some tendancy but not much. I went to her father for advice becasue she saw their relatioship as perfect, and I thought that is what she wanted, he tought me to be a non, which in turn threw my wife into full crazy BPD. had I stayed myself and stood up, and did all the things that were me (I hated taking his advise but I was hoodwinked into believing it was the way)she  would not be a totally full blown BPD today. I know this for sure.

Let's look at this situation:  Let's assume that the woman involved was not an obvious mess... .that she had a good job, that she had a place to live and her own money, that she didn't have three prior kids by three different men, that she wasn't a stripper, ex-con, drunk or obvious slut.  That she seemed like a nice woman, ready to get married and settle down.  Let's say that 19, out of courtesy to her, went to her dad to talk about marriage.  What if 19 listened and thought, what, giving in to women to keep them quiet?  Placating them all of the time?  This sounds shtty to me... . I don't think I'm going to do that.  

Would his woman never have shown full-blown BPD traits?  Let's be honest here, everybody.  Would 19's wife have continued to be sweet, charming, agreeable, faithful, not selfish, etc., if he hadn't listened to dad?  :)oes anybody really believe that this relationship would have been long-term, healthy, and happy?

She would have continued to push up against him with increasingly difficult behaviors.  If he didn't give in, she would have considered him abusive.  Perhaps she would have left him.  Perhaps she would have engaged in passive-aggressive behaviors or had an affair... .in which she would complain about her nasty, abusive husband.  But the big thing is that somewhere in heart of hearts, she KNEW that he would behave as he did.  She knew that he would cowtow and let her ride roughshod over him.  She knew that he wouldn't stand up to her; that's why she hadn't left him before the wedding!

Now... .if at any time, he had put his foot down to the increasingly lousy behaviors and said "enough is enough"... .Either you get some help with your btchiness (not phrased that way, of course), or I'm out, perhaps she would have valued the relationship enough to seek help.  Perhaps.

But, no, listening to the henpecked father in law, being "good", didn't turn the daughter into a raging butt or BPD... . She was there already.  She just picked the right guy.  

[JerryZ]

I really want to respond to this, but I do not know where to begin. There seems to be quite a few issues here. So, I will scan and make remarks and include quotes where appropriate.

First of all, let me say that I have come to some very remarkable realizations. I did put myself in the position of being a voodoo doll and I now know why. In addition, even though I will never put myself in that position again, I also do not have any regrets because I would not understand things like I do now if it wasn't for those experiences.

As for the suffering issue: IMHO, we all suffer, and the suffering is relative. What causes one to suffer brings happiness for another and everything in between.

As for the enabling issue: There is no doubt that we are all enablers to some degree, and it is true for both sides (i.e. we enable them and they enable us). But, as JMR said, no one can create a BPD.

Nons encourage and feed bps, but don't create them.

Bps learn their behaviors because they work.

I would much rather be my ex than be me.  She is happy, gets what she wants, has no guilt, and has no penalties.  She can get any man she wants (and she does), and feels no remorse or regret when jumping from one to another.  She uses people indiscriminantly, and is happy about it.  She enjoys it.  It is more than a great hobby, it is her career.  She has a much, much, much better life than I do.

I agree that BPD traits are learned behaviors. However, I do not agree that your ex's life is a good life. If you define this as a happy life, maybe you need to reexamine your definition of true happiness. I see this lifestyle as imperminant or short-term. It cannot last forever. I see someone like her looking for external pleasures and that cannot, IMHO, be a source of true happiness. True happiness, IMHO, comes only from within. It seems to me that she is actually unhappy with herself and needs others to define and validate her existence. This does not sound like a good life to me.

Bless,

Jerry

[JMR]

Everyone here... .in some ways, it is true, the BP partners seem like they survived better than we did.  I'm sure, in my case, there was laughter and smiles and peace of mind during the same weeks that I was paining my way through the early stages of NC.  But I know she hurt too... .she had a dream too and reality crushed it... .and unrealitic or not... .it hurt her badly... .and she defended against the pain it in her way... .she deflected, she sub'd for me... .she didn't let it shut her down.

I think it's true, skip, but would add that "survived" is the key word here. Linehan, the originator of dbt therapy, talks about the BPD's "suppression of grief," and how dealing with the suppressed grief is part of the necessary recovery process.  I believe that BPDs do everything possible to avoid feeling pain and hurt, because they're afraid of it, feel they can't handle it, and that to a large degree they are often "successful." But the pain and the grief never fully go away, and require active effort to continue suppressing the feelings, all of which is part of why they live the way they do, victims of their own defense mechanisms.  I believe that my BPD x is filled with pain and grief from all the relationships of her life (starting with her parents), and that the relationship with me is just the latest example.  No one fully escapes the feelings, we just deal with them in different ways, one of which hurts a lot now, and the other of which hurts you forever.

I've read somewhere (but have no idea if it's true) that people with BPD often go through a sort of "reverse" grief process.  Where most people initially feel tremendous hurt, and gradually get over it, the suggestion was that people with BPD feel fine at first, and that the grief slowly emerges over time, never fully going away.  I have seen some indication of this with my x. It appears she felt just fine for a couple of months, and then started feeling something like grief, resulting in her recent effort (after 5 months) to get me to be her "friend," which I saw, at least in part, as an effort to avoid dealing with the hurt she was finally beginning to feel, by attempting to get back what she threw away.

JoannaK, I pretty much agree with all you say except for the suggestion that there's something inherently suspect about a relationship with someone in AA.  Surely you're not serious?  They're the people who are doing something about their problems; would you say one should avoid relationships with people in therapy, too?


P.S. Skip,  I envy my beagle, too, but have to remind myself that although he appears happy, he doesn't even know that he is.  He just thinks everyone everywhere is happy.

[JoannaK]

JoannaK, I pretty much agree with all you say except for the suggestion that there's something inherently suspect about a relationship with someone in AA.  Surely you're not serious?  They're the people who are doing something about their problems; would you say one should avoid relationships with people in therapy, too?

  Yep, Skippy, I caught that too when I reread what I posted... .I didn't mean it the way it sounded.  What I meant to say is the dynamic of people using AA as a dating service.  We've had many here who mention "I met in AA."  It's not the AA itself, which is of course good and necessary for many people...   It's the people who seem to use AA as a dating service.  About the therapy... .  Hmm, I think that meeting someone in your therapist's office might not be a good thing, but it would all depend on the person's issues.   

[JMR]

Probably not worth quibbling with, JoannaK, but does one conclude that someone is "using AA as a dating service" because they met someone there with whom they became involved?  When people get together in groups -- any grounds -- dating is something that naturally can occur, and is no more suspect in one group than another, imho. As a practical matter, people often like to date people with whom they have some things in common, and recovery from alcoholism can be one of those things.  I met someone in AA, but wasn't "using it as a dating service" because of that fact. I've been to thousands of AA meetings in 18 years, have dated one person. I guess it would be suspect if one did go to AA meetings just for that reason.

[lennic]

Congrats on your sobriety JMR. I too celebrate that number this year. I don't think your quibbling here but I do have to lean towards Joannak's take on this. In my experience with AA, NA, CODA, group therapy and even church for that matter a measurable percentage are there for many of the wrong reasons. None of these programs can work if you don't work it. Early in recovery we look for someone who "understands" and the intimacy, relief from the aloneness, and the power surge of conquest that a relationship offers. Our self esteme is terribly diminished and having someone tell you that you are wonderfull is "curing". The number one cause of relapse is relationships. In my years of working in the rehab world we could spot them as soon as they walked through the door... ."the needy"... .obvious because of the strut or arrogance and the simple fact that the war was still on... .this was just a breather. The problem(s) were all still external. It was only a matter of a few short days before their understanding of a cure was a hook up.

Considering the numbers of those who die clean and sober after addictions... .1 out of 36 and the number one cause of relapse is a relationship then these "meat lockers" as some old timers call AA mixed meetings are sources of extreme problems. The real serious folks IMHO are those that attend only men's and womans meetings and step meetings.

But then again, as you state in your case, there are success stories. I simply tell any man that I am working with in sobriety that if they wish to stay clean and sober,,stay away from the women. Few listen,,and you know the rest of the story.

Lenny

[JoannaK]

I don't mean to be negative about AA or any of the people who are coming to AA in the hopes of getting and staying sober.  I've heard that people are urged not to date anyone in AA unless/until both parties have been solidly sober for a year.  So somebody new to recovery meeting someone also new to recovery would be in a difficult situation.

I've also read dozens of stories here at bpdfamily about relationships played out on the backdrop of AA meetings.  One woman couldn't bring herself to marry a man, active in AA (she wasn't active in AA), but he picked up with someone else fairly new to AA.  She knew the drav

My bf was a psychiatric nurse in the field of chemical dependency for many years.  He's got a terribly negative take on AA, and has actually referred to it as a "dating service for drunks".  That seems unfair to me, as it doesn't fit many AAers, but that's his take.  It's based on his observation that so many people get quickly hooked up with a fellow AAer and they think their substance abuse problems have ended.

There was a man who used to post here a year ago or so (Christopher), who was active in AA and insisted that people only attend AA in same-sex groups so that the temptation to hook up would be minimized.

And my bf's brother (having grown up in a family where alcohol was a problem) has just hooked up with a woman who is very recently sober and has just started attending AA meetings.  He's driving her everywhere because her license has been revoked, and she can't get a job in part because she can't get to work due to not being able to drive.  If this whole thing goes downhill, why should he be surprised?  It's not the AA in this situation, of course; it's that she's been sober for a very short amount of time.  (And she "cleaned out" his medicine cabinet, "throwing out" some pain pills that he'd had prescribed for some dental work last year.  She didn't tell him about the cleaning until he wondered where they'd gone.)

Again, my point is that people get into situations that are obviously difficult right out of the box, and then they are surprised that things aren't working out and they are miserable.

[Mystified]

It's funny, but I was just reading some intro posts and my first thought to all of them was "You've got to be kidding, right?"  As in, why are you even in this relationship and why can't you see it as it is?  This has got to be a joke post, right?  Is it April Fool's Day?

Weren't you once where they were?  If you were, have you forgotten what that's like? (Sure sounds like it to me.)

Are you familiar with stages-of-change theories?

So nons certainly do NOT create BPD people.

This, I agree with.

Now, do nons enable them?  Could a BPD person be "normal" if he/she wasn't attached to an enabling, passive, sniffling, rescuing, victim-type non?  Well, most won't "attach" to anybody but either an abusive creep or an enabling, passive, sniffling, rescuing, victim-type non.

Are you implying that all nons are "enabling, passive, sniffling, rescuing, victim-type" nons?  (And is it really necessary to pile on the adjectives there? Like "sniffling"?) 

I'd rather be too compassionate than not compassionate enough, any day. 

Read through the intro posts... .read through people's descriptions of the early stages of their relationships... .read through the circumstances of their relationships.  Most here walked into a spider's web. 

And many nons were involved with, or friends with, high-functioning BPs whose illness they (the BPs) were able to hide for quite a while.

It can take quite a bit of time for it to become clear that what at first seemed like isolated blips on the radar -- occasional incidents; or little things that seem "off" but in subtle ways that can be hard to pinpoint -- were actually part of a pervasive pattern.

~Mystified

[JMR]

I understand where you're coming from, Lennic and JoannaK, and would certainly agree that people who are recently sober don't need, and shouldn't have, the added distraction and stress of a new relationship.  If two people are able to handle a relationship, I don't think it matters where they meet.

On an individual level, I think I was just being a bit defensive in response to the initial statement that "People here have taken on people without jobs, people without assets, . . . people who were in AA. . . ."   The apparent suggestion was that people attending AA meetings are inherently suspect as SO's because people who attend such meetings are alcoholics (recovered or not) and accordingly not appropriate for a meaningful relationship. Seemed to be a bit of prejudice creeping through there.

More generally, the post seemed to express a somewhat formulaic approach to what is a "normal"  relationship that can be "long-term, healthy, and happy."  I'm no fan of abusive relationships with BPDs, but believe that many relationships outside someone's perceived norm can be healthy and happy.  I don't necessarily think that whether it is "long-term" is crucial to either.  I tend to think that long-term and short-term relationships are simply different, serving different purposes, neither one better or worse.

[JoannaK]

To move away from the AA discussion... .I didn't mean exactly what I wrote... I was posting too quickly this morning, and I think I went back and tried to explain exactly what I meant.

About the rest of it:  I do believe that many of the nons here got involved in situations that were problematic right from the getgo.  I think that perhaps a significant minority or even a majority got involved in situations that would have sent someone more emotionally healthy running for the hills from day 1.  Then there were another whole bunch who saw waving red flags early... .but they still stayed.  My point in the context of this thread is that someone who has BPD has BPD has BPD.  The way the non acts doesn't create BPD in someone else.  If a non is with someone who is "suddenly" exhibiting BPD traits, he/she shouldn't be surprised if the situation was unhealthy from the beginning, it's not because the non has somehow caused the BPD.  I'm still not sure if that was clear or not.   

About short term and long term, JMR... .   What is a short-term relationship?  Does anyone really want a relationship to be short term?  Someone may think he or she does... .but what happens?  Well, I really only want a relationship with someone right now until I move to Timbuktu in a few months?  Or... .maybe just a year or two and then I'll move on to someone else?  Then what happens at the end of that time?  The two people involved say, "yep, I knew this was only going to be a year or two and our time is up, so let's shake hands and go our separate ways?"  When does that ever happen to anybody?  My sense is that just about everybody goes into a relationship hoping that this may be the One, and they will ride off happily into the sunset.  Perhaps there are some people who are thinking, well, this could be fun for a year or two... .but do they bother telling their partner that's they only think this will last for a year or two?

I've known many people who have gotten involved in relationships that are not the norm... .  Particularly people who are either unhappily married who have decided to find someone on the side just to have fun with ... .or the people who latch onto someone already married or involved.  These aren't normal relationships, and I don't know one such relationship that turned out happy and healthy for any length of time.  I'm sure there are some, but I don't know them.  I've known women who are the "other woman" who are miserable in the role.  I've known people who try to have things both ways, and then the spouse finds out and the whole thing is a major mess.  I've known people who go into other relationships as an escape from a lousy marriage... .  I was there for a few months until I finally got up the courage to bail.  It wasn't a happy or healthy time of my life. 

I think the feeling that two people can meet, have good sex from time to time, and have this "friends with benefits" relationship while other things are going on in their lives very rarely works.  In fact, I can think of many people who were in those kinds of situations, and I can't think of one person who felt things worked out as expected.  Generally somebody got hurt... .often badly. 

So "long term" is relative.  I suppose a short term relationship would have to be a mutual goal...   both parties would have to realize that the relationship is just going to last for a short time and be content with that.  But the happy and healthy... .  if you were happy and healthy in a relationship, why would you want it to end? 

[blade]

I agree with you JoannaK... .I am one those who KNEW early on I was the short term boy toy of a single mom, and I really KNEW but ignored red flags when they showed up... .I though I was strong enough to handle "Friends with Benefits". I then began projecting into the relationship a person who wasn't there... .Then I met her daughter and fell in love with the idea of a sweet family by day, and my sexy, younger, Dream MILF in bed at night, which she was for me. I worked really hard to keep the whole game going, but she kept raising the stakes, and I stayed in the game because after a while I was addicted to the whole thing... .I have to own this unpleasant part of myself, and owning the fact that I am not the righteous person I thought I was is what hurts. I thought I had surrendered my stud ego a long time ago, but the middle aged man in me wanted one more ride on the thrilling sex roller coaster, with a spinkle of family life mixed in... .just enough to fool myself into thinking it would last Forever. At least I was "real" and in the moment with her five year old daughter for three years... .I never faked or phoned in any part of that. The kid part was a gift to me. I do know I didn't cause her BPD, even though she says I made her crazy.

[JoannaK]

I didn't respond to mystified's comments:

It's funny, but I was just reading some intro posts and my first thought to all of them was "You've got to be kidding, right?"  As in, why are you even in this relationship and why can't you see it as it is?  This has got to be a joke post, right?  Is it April Fool's Day?

Weren't you once where they were?  If you were, have you forgotten what that's like? (Sure sounds like it to me.)

Are you familiar with stages-of-change theories?

Sometimes it is a situation like the one I was in.  Sometimes it is just very extreme.  And, yes, because I do understand the stages of change I don't often post "what were you thinking?" or "you're kidding, right?"  In fact, I've only posted things like that if serious physical abuse was involved (and the person seemed not to realize how much danger they were in) or if someone who had been around bpdfamily for awhile announced that he was going back to his partner... . when it seemed as though he was "safe" and out.  

My exh was high-functioning when I met him.  On the surface, he didn't meet any of the "red flag" categories.  No drinking or drug issues, good job, good apartment, decent car, friends around, not in a relationship.  But he had an early episode of splitting me and he vanished.  Then I took him back.  That was my issue.  But I didn't know anything about BPD back then and there was nothing like bpdfamily.  So I struggled on.  

Are you implying that all nons are "enabling, passive, sniffling, rescuing, victim-type" nons?  (And is it really necessary to pile on the adjectives there? Like "sniffling"?)  

I thought that this was clearly a bit of hyperbole... . I would suggest that any non take whichever of these adjectives applies to him/her and leave the rest.  If you aren't sniffling (I think I meant "sniveling", then you aren't.

I'd rather be too compassionate than not compassionate enough, any day.  

To someone new, certainly.  But if someone has been here awhile and seems to be going through the same thing ad nauseum, perhaps we need to be a bit less compassionate, and a bit stronger in our responses to that person.  Clearly, it depends on the individual.

And many nons were involved with, or friends with, high-functioning BPs whose illness they (the BPs) were able to hide for quite a while.

It can take quite a bit of time for it to become clear that what at first seemed like isolated blips on the radar -- occasional incidents; or little things that seem "off" but in subtle ways that can be hard to pinpoint -- were actually part of a pervasive pattern.

Yes, that is certainly true.  I wasn't talking about those people.  I was talking about the ones who walk into situations that are absolutely goofy from Day 1.  And sometimes the reason that someone doesn't first put the pieces together is because it is a long distance or an internet relationship... .so easy to hide behind those keyboards.  Or because the person is someone that the person only sees occasionally... . then they get involved and things rapidly go downhill.

I don't know the percentages, but a huge percentage of people here got involved in situations that were difficult from the beginning... . like my bf's brother getting involved with the woman who has only recently stopped drinking... .and has come out of a bad marriage within the past year... .and has no job... .and who moved in with him because she was "homeless".  

I feel as though I'm repeating myself, so I will just go ahead and post.

[JMR]

Now it's my turn, blade and JoannaK, to say I  didn't explain myself very well.  I didn't mean to suggest that I enter into relationships wanting them to be short-term, and certainly agree with the idea that if it's fulfilling for both parties, why would one want it to end.  I think I just meant that I don't consider a relationship a failure if it doesn't last long-term, and don't enter into them with the goal in mind that they must be long-term to be worthwhile, if that makes sense.  For example, if I wanted to have a relationship with someone I knew would have to leave in a year, and that neither of us might be willing to relocate at that time, I don't think it would discourage me from getting to know the person and seeing where it went. Some people I know would eliminate any possibility that didn't have crystal-clear long-term potential.  I don't mean to suggest, either, that I believe the kind of extra-marital relationships referred to by JoannaK would likely lead to any satisfaction for anyone.  I just meant that I can't see eliminating, in my mind, whole classes of people simply because they have no assets, are recovered alcoholics, or perhaps have had more than "their share" of problems.  I guess because I consider myself one of them, and would like to think I wouldn't be scratched off someone's list because I am a recovered alcoholic, had a not great marriage and a dysfunctional relationship with a BPD.  In my mind, it makes me sadder but wiser, not a walking red flag.

[Skippy]

Now do you understand why I covet my dogs life?

As JMR said, "I envy my beagle... .he appears happy, he doesn't even know that he is.  He just thinks everyone everywhere is happy."

Sounds good, huh?


            Here Skippy.  Sit Skippy.  Good dog.

[Mystified]

from mystified: Are you implying that all nons are "enabling, passive, sniffling, rescuing, victim-type" nons?  (And is it really necessary to pile on the adjectives there? Like "sniffling"?) 

I thought that this was clearly a bit of hyperbole... .  I would suggest that any non take whichever of these adjectives applies to him/her and leave the rest.  If you aren't sniffling (I think I meant "sniveling", then you aren't.

Joanna, hyperbole isn't the issue for me here. Parts of your post -- including that part -- just sounded very judgmental. To me, it sounded scornful of people who are just at the beginning stages of seeking help -- when they first come to bpdfamily and are most vulnerable. I'm sure their situation isn't funny to them.

It also sounded like you were writing off whole classes of people (as JMR mentioned), and like you're the arbiter of what constitutes normal and healthy. Obviously, you're entitled to your opinions.  I think I'm just tired of seeing posts (general comment here, not directed at anyone) with sweeping generalizations about "all nons."  Like "we're all enablers" and so on.  Well, no, we're not all one thing. And some of us nons on the Chosen board are also Unchosens (speaking for myself, anyway) who have worked very hard to hang on to our identities and to overcome whatever maladaptive coping mechanisms we learned while young. Ya know?  It's like there's a bunch of all-or-nothing thinking slipping into bpdfamily at times, and that's part of what I want to get away from. 

(You don't need to answer that, Jo. I just wanted to clarify what I was reacting to earlier.)

As far as my earlier comment that I'd rather be too compassionate than not compassionate enough any day, that was mostly a general one, although I was also thinking about brucey and his post saying that (if I remember right) he'd rather be his ex than himself. Brucey, I hope that changes for you.

I wouldn't trade places with my BPD friend for anything. When I finally realized just how disturbed she is and how much damage she can inflict without remorse, I thought "what kind of turmoil does someone have to be in, to do the things she does?"  My own brain chemistry & personal history are a good deal less than optimal, but I'm already much further along in recovery than she is likely ever to be. (She'd never even admit to having a problem.)  My issues suddenly looked a lot more manageable for me, and way, way less damaging to the people around me.

~Mystified

[Skippy]

 ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice:


Hi Guys,

This is Skip, a former enabling, passive, sniffling, rescuing, victim-type" non.  I sniffled and I cried.  I'm OK to say it.  I got loved here, coached, insulted, and kicked in the pants a few times.  I've been misunderstood on more than one occasion.  I'm OK to say this too... .

Question... .are we debating the subject or are we picking on each other here a little today (yesterday, etc.). 

The debate is such an important part of learning.

I know one thing.  I respect the opinions of  JMR, brucey, splitzville, bewildered, suncleap, JoannaK, Lenic, and Mystified.  I never question your sincerity or caring.  I have read all your posts for some time.

Lets be sure to be beating up the subject and not each other.

Otherwise, I might start my sniffling again.  That would be ugly.  :'(

Skippy




;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice: ;p olice:

[Skippy]

.    ... I was also thinking about brucey and his post saying that (if I remember right) he'd rather be his ex than himself. Brucey, I hope that changes for you.

I wouldn't trade places with my BPD friend for anything. When I finally realized just how disturbed she is and how much damage she can inflict without remorse, I thought "what kind of turmoil does someone have to be in, to do the things she does?" [/size]

You know, I wonder sometimes about the turmoil.  I've read a lot here that talks about how a BP suffers and I did see this at times in my realtionship... .

But I also saw something else... .skimming the top of the pond.

Her x-mother in law, who adored her, died rather suddenly.  We were just starting to date at the time.  I offered to loet her have time, or bring dinner by her house, or just sit with her.

She came home from the viewing - without any perceivable grief or hurt.

I'm not sure how much she ever hurt, or if hurt was just so devastating that she learned to just fly over it.

I've seen idealization.  I've seen falling in love.  I've seen ambition. I've seen worry and chaos.   I've seen anger.

Hurt?

No.


Skippy

[JMR]

Lets be sure to be beating up the subject and not each other.

I agree skip, appreciate the confidence in our sincerity, and don't want to beat up on anyone -- we've all had enough of that.  I too respect the posts and sincerity of everyone who's expressed their opinions here, and don't mean for my comments to be perceived as personal attacks.  I think I'm just trying to clarify for myself the message/lesson I take from my BPD experience, my relationships, and all that I've learned here.  Not sure I've got a lot more to say on the general subject we've been talking about. I am, as always, immensely grateful for the many different viewpoints which are expressed.