The game: Our wants versus theirs, and the ensuing hurt.

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

How do you know that you're a gazelle and not a lion? How do you know that a bf/gf is not a gazelle?

What I'm saying is that when you're falling for someone you believe/assume that you're of the same species.

[hopethereishope]

How do you know that you're a gazelle and not a lion? How do you know that a bf/gf is not a gazelle?

What I'm saying is that when you're falling for someone you believe/assume that you're of the same species.

[oneflewover]

The thing here is, we should not have to worry about what kind of animal we are with our partners.  It should make no difference whatsoever.  When you can't trust your partner to be a good steward of your well-being than good God, who can you trust?

We should not have to fear our partner invoking harm upon us.

[hopethereishope]

We should not have to fear our partner invoking harm upon us.

No, but my guess is that we should not dismiss it either. The first time isn't going to be the last. My only conclusion is that it's their way of solving problems and dealing with the world in general. You just have to believe it the first time you see it (and walk away?).

[SOOOdone]

ugh...

people are who they are. as long as we expect rational behavior from someone intrinsically irrational we have a conflict. obviously a person can look rational until they prove otherwise. that's where the confusion sets in.

it sort of like having a 'phantom arm' after an arm amputation...one still feels and thinks it is there when it is not. was it there once? yes. is it there now? no. does it feel like it is? yes. is that confusing? yes. is there a time where one has to face the fact that it isn't there anymore? hopefully...

[Jeffree]

My problem is that I was a gazelle and she made it seem as though she was gazelle, only she turned out to be a lion.

--J

[oneflewover]

You know lions are king of the jungles.  They only kill to eat and when they do, they are the most humane of all hunters, they go for the jugular vein and take their victim down cleanly.  That is why they have the title and are respected.

I would equate our BPDs more to the hyenas.  Never fair, never clean, and never regal in nature.

But okay since we are on that an analogy, most of us didn't marry or align ourselves outside our kind where we feared sneak attacks.  We thought we were good.  So how did we know that we married a sheep in wolves clothing so to speak?  And when the teeth were bared, um, yeah it is no wonder we froze.   

[Jeffree]

Looking back, I can say that my ex's suicidal ideations were clear signs that she was mentally ill.

Nowadays that's not a lion's jaw I would put my head into. However, at the time, I thought, "How could I abandon her at her most desperate time of need? Let me help her through this." I fgured that was the best strategy for both of our sakes.

I guessed wrong.

--J

[SuddenlySense]

Several things in this discussion brought up some stuff for me.

First, the game analogy.  I thought I was playing with someone who had the same rulebook, equipment and sportsmanship that I did.  I thought this for a very long time.  I thought it was just me who didn't have the technique or skills to play that was hampering the progress of the game, or my (our) success in it.

Another thing which works with the game analogy is the fact that we were playing one game (say, football) before the marriage (for several years, off and on).  After we got married (as early as during the honeymoon), the game changed.  Picture a football team leaving the field and being replaced by an equally talented basketball team.  Any self-respecting opponent would question that, maybe refuse to play since that was not what they signed on for.  This is what happened to me.  Only I didn't realize it then, so I did not ask for a halt to the game.  I asked for explanations, but was told that this is what happened in all marriages...that we weren't kids anymore.  Unfortunately, I didn't ask for a second opinion!

The other thing here  is that, yes, it was a lot me...not the person who caused the problems, but the one who contributed to the neverending hashing out of them, over and over again.  I'm not going to beat myself up over this either...I didn't know any better. 

Stbx was still stating in emails after the separation that it was me who gave up on the marriage.  I stated then, and I feel now, that I finally decided I had done all that I could do without sacrificing either my sanity or my self-respect.  And I  am willing to give up neither of these.

[Jeffree]

Thinking like Quick for an instant if I may (I got spurs that jingle, jangle, jingle)...

I think he wants us to not let our dismay, anger, resentment, hurt, lack of trust, confusion, disappointment or the aftermath of our exBPD affect the rest of our life to such an extent that we can't enjoy the present.

We can't let one person force us into our shell for years just because he or she got the better of us. We can't not trust anyone ever again just because we did once with a BPD and got royally screwed.

In order to move on, I think he is suggesting that we take as much responsibility for our role in the BPD dance as we can.

I agree wholeheartedly with him on almost everything he says. I just happen to differ with him in the entent to which I am willing to take responsibility for someone basically switching on me. Ya, sure, I could tell early on that she was not well. However, she admitted that she had problems, pleaded with me for help, and took responsibility for it, so I felt comfortable staying with her and helping her though her stuff.

I had no idea she'd turn on me the way she did, though now I can see it was only a matter of time.

I don't blame myself for trying to make a good life with her. She showed me the potential to do right by me, and I took a chance on her. I do, however, take extreme issue with her flipping on me, having an affair, then trying to lay the blame for her infidelity on me...and trying to destroy me in the divorce process.

--J

[PDQuick]

IMHO, I think the lesson to be learned for all of is to see the rality, and recognize it, rather than believe in the dream, and give everything of ourselves to try to make it happen.

Looking back, it is very clear to me that the outcome was predetermined, and I did nothing but give of myself to delay it. Kinda like being out at sea, and being in a boat with a big hole in it. I bailed and bailed and bailed and bailed, until I had no energy left to bail. I bailed because first of all, I thought I could do something about it. Secondly, I valued the boat more than me to the point of wearing myself out completely bailing, instead of realizing that the boat was going to sink, and using my energy to swim to shore. After bailing, I had no energy left to swim, and everything I worked for was still sinking, and I took the brunt of that blame. The boat was going to sink. Period. It isnt my fault that it was sinking, but it is now my fault that I will drown, because I decided to waste my enegy bailing, instead of swimming. Thats my lesson, what about yours?

[Jeffree]

Hmmmmm...my lesson? Great question!

I learned that love between a man and a woman is just a part of what makes life worth enjoying. There's love of self, love of friends and family, love of pet, love of food, love of work, love of the experience of life, love of the people who are on the fringes of your life, love of hobbies, etc.

--J

[Chili]

IMHO, I think the lesson to be learned for all of is to see the rality, and recognize it, rather than believe in the dream, and give everything of ourselves to try to make it happen.

Looking back, it is very clear to me that the outcome was predetermined, and I did nothing but give of myself to delay it. Kinda like being out at sea, and being in a boat with a big hole in it. I bailed and bailed and bailed and bailed, until I had no energy left to bail. I bailed because first of all, I thought I could do something about it. Secondly, I valued the boat more than me to the point of wearing myself out completely bailing, instead of realizing that the boat was going to sink, and using my energy to swim to shore. After bailing, I had no energy left to swim, and everything I worked for was still sinking, and I took the brunt of that blame. The boat was going to sink. Period. It isnt my fault that it was sinking, but it is now my fault that I will drown, because I decided to waste my enegy bailing, instead of swimming. Thats my lesson, what about yours?

That is a great analogy. My time spent on the sinking ship was very short in comparison to most. I thank God daily that I found out about BPD, came to bpdfamily.com and got out as quickly as I did because I often think I would have drown had I not. Now, PM is drowning and I am not responsible for it. While I don't want him to drown, it's his own fault that he hasn't looked for the tools to repair the boat and get to safety.

My lessons have been very much about myself. I've had problems with relationships my whole life due to choices I made. I learned to look at my past, accept some things, forgive others and move forward with that knowledge.

Chili

[SOOOdone]

My lessons are:

I have limitations I need to respect.

The four most dangerous words for me have been ''I Can Handle It"...

I learned that getting into a relationship isn't much different than how I would buy a vintage automobile...ALL cars require work over time, so it's best for me to buy one that is already very close to how I want it to be, even if it is more expensive (takes longer to find) at the starting gate. If I buy one that needs a total resto, it ends up costing me a LOT more, takes FOREVER before I can actually drive it if I ever finish the job, and is a never-ending project. In the meantime, the time is wasted fixing where I could have been  driving already...

[oneflewover]

There are lots of lessons for me, good and bad.  But the single most lesson that stands out for me is there are no guarantees in life.  No guarantees at all.  So you have to live fully, capably, and ready to experience all that life can or cannot offer to you.  There is going to be heartache and disappoint just as much as there is going to be joy and success.   

Love always starts with the big guy, then within yourself and all else is well "gravy".  That is my only guarantee...

[foiles]

Lightbulb moment- too many to list.  Unfortunately it took awhile for me to open my eyes and look into the light.  Lessons learned-  Love yourself and everything else falls into place.  Acceptance of reality.  The truth does set you free. 

[ellefun2]

My lesson is learning to trust myself and seeing things for what they really are; not what I hope, dream or think they should be, but what is. 

PDQ, I like your analogy of the sinking boat.  My problem was that I refused to acknowledge that it sinking was inevitable.  I baled, I tried to patch the hole, I tried to cork it up.  Hell, who knows?  Maybe I even thought I could raise it off the surface of the water and make it fly.  I was in huge denial until I was up to my neck.  However, I did manage to salvage the emergency flares and realized it was time to signal a rescue team.     

[hopethereishope]

Lessons learned: put yourself first, trust yourself, rely on yourself, accept reality, most of all love, respect and be loyal to yourself.

[MathCoreChick]

i just wrote about this somewhere else.  it might take me a minute to lead into it.  bear with me.

for the almost 6 years i was with my EX i operated under several delusions.  one of them being that being in a 'good'  and 'stable' relationship would somehow erase/ make up/ negate any deficiencies i had from having such a sucky childhood and a very fragmented family  unit.  to participate in this delusion, i had to not only ignore red flag after red flag after red flag, but i had to stifle myself and get on the 'get along bus' WHICH WAS MY CHOICE.  most of the time when there was an issue with the EX, it was because my 'true self' had taken over for the false person i was being and put her foot down.  HARD.  this also involved doing just about everything you are not supposed to do to engage someone with BPD.  but then the fear would rule out and i would submit to whatever the *compromise* (i know and believe you me i am using that term verrrrrry loosely) was to maintain peace, harmony, and *equilibrium* ...you see i thought if i did all the 'right' things and said all the 'right' things then i would get a ring (which i had and pawned last christmas but that's another story) and then i would be surrounded by the unconditional love and safety my FOO never provided.  then one day i got so mad i just had it and we were finally done--it was mostly about him yelling me about not microwaving something the 'right' way and then he took back my returnables without asking.  i know, stupid, but whatever fight was in me finally came out and took over and kicked that other silly, weak, codependednt girl who i had made myself into straight to the curb.

that was the beginning of me not pegging myself as a victim.  once i stopped feeling sorry for myself and the anger and pist in me took over for the fear of the unknown/ fear of failure there was no looking back.

i will also say i think i got to the point where i cared more about 'winning' and being 'right' about the relationship then anything else.  when i realized this i think i finally understood that i couldnt just blame my EX, i had done my fair share of damage and drawn blood as well.

good topic.

[PDQuick]

This is all good stuff, and I appreciate everyone chiming in. What is it that you will carry from the previous relationship, into your next one? How can you make your part more stable?

[2bad2stay]

I will bring the parts of me that were good, like compassion, kindness, empathy, and patience.  Those are certainly part of a good, healthy relationship. 

But I will not try to become someone I'm not just for the sake of maintaining a relationship again.  If I can't be myself, be honest, and be independent, then I'm with the wrong person and would be better off alone.  I can do my part to make things more stable by examining myself, my actions, and my beliefs, then staying true to myself.  I won't rely on anyone else to take care of me, I have to do that.  And I also have to allow myself to feel and be vulnerable.  After years of developing a protective shell, I have to learn to be open.  And making those decisions has been deliberate.  I realize that I played a part in all of this previous mess and am taking the steps to not repeat those mistakes again.  It's not always easy.  But I make myself go beyond what is familiar for the sake of being healthier in the long run.  We do have the ability to change our actions and not repeat past mistakes.  It just takes effort.

[PDQuick]

Very cool 2Bad, very cool.

[Charles6722]

2B2S- Your right ON! and it does take work, perhaps the hardest part is, after finding the faults in ourselves, making an honest effort to "fix" it!


Charles-

[carolt0604]

I will bring sweetness, devotion, sympathy, adaptability, trust, dependability, sensitivity, a strong will, passion, and optimism and along with that my great smile and curves.  (just had to add that in for me).

Carol

[PDQuick]

I will bring sweetness, devotion, sympathy, adaptability, trust, dependability, sensitivity, a strong will, passion, and optimism and along with that my great smile and curves.  (just had to add that in for me).

Somehow, I am sure these things were all present before your experience. 

[2bad2stay]

2B2S- Your right ON! and it does take work, perhaps the hardest part is, after finding the faults in ourselves, making an honest effort to "fix" it!


Charles-

I know that you are staying, but that doesn't matter in the big picture.  I had to do so much work on myself before I could even get to a place I could think about leaving. This is something I have thought about a lot in the past few months.  Why did it take me about 3 years to get out after realizing just how messed up everything truly was?  Because I didn't have the tools or the strength to do it at that point.  I had been slowly beaten down for about 12 years before I knew I had to do something to change the situation.  And I at least realized that the only person I could change was me.  So I started working on myself.  The stronger I got, the better I felt, and the more convinced I became that I had to leave.  And I was finally able to do it.  But it was a very long road.  And things keep getting better now that I am out.  I feel like am a much more competent, complete person than I have ever been.  I am not saying that you need to leave.  But I am glad to see that you are working on yourself even while staying.

[oneflewover]

...and along with that my great smile and curves.  (just had to add that in for me).

I have no idea what I will bring into a new relationship but I definately know what I will not bring and that is anything my ex offered up.

[2bad2stay]

and along with that my great smile and curves.  (just had to add that in for me).

Yeah, I'll bring those, too.  Like I can leave them at home.  : xoxo

[carolt0604]

My self esteem building list.   

[carolt0604]

Thanks PD! Yes they were just took me some time to find them again.   

[LivingWell]

Thanks, PDQ!  That the best post I've ever read.

L