Divorce Strategy Advice, Experts, Lawyers, Custody

[ForeverDad]

If she won’t start talking about anything then I’ll tell her she’s not leaving me a choice and that I’m starting a divorce action and she needs a lawyer. (If she does start talking I’ll react to that but regardless I am starting a divorce).

That’s how I plan to ease her into this and try as best I can to minimize the volatility, which may be impossible but at least I will feel i tried.

One of our wonderful qualities is our care and concern for others.  One of our worst qualities when facing a divorce is... our care and concern for others.  No, not a typing mistake.  What I mean is that our natural (and otherwise wonderful) inclination is to look out for others more than ourselves.

Divorce is a matter where we need to put our interests as parents above our interests for the stbEx.  Why?  Here is a "what if" that has happened to many of us, myself included.

What if you inform your ex that you will be filing for separation/divorce.  What if she rushes out, files abuse allegations (either DV or child abuse), files first for you to have no parenting or at most supervised visitation?  Then you're cast as playing defense and catch up.

Court will not care how "nice" or "overly fair" either of you are.  Yes, you don't want to be outright nasty, but as long as you behave normally as though the judge is looking over your shoulder then you don't have to put your own strategies and position at risk of her sabotaging you.  Believe me, she will do enough of that on her own despite your careful preparation.

To file first is not being nasty.  (You telling her in advance would enable her to rush out and file first.)  The point is that with you filing first then false allegations and ridiculous demands could be reduced.

If my wife isnt participating I need them to bring some things and clothes to my new place. They will be worried she will be upset about their choices if she isn’t providing feedback or helping them make decisions sort of like “dad are you sure we should be doing this?” way. Not sure how to best help them or avoid setting them up for an awkward or angry exchange with their mother, mostly over clothes. (I am buying two of everything else they possess like coats, tablets, chromebooks etc).

When my stbx is served with the divorce papers, because she has been so uncompromising I, per legal advice, need to move for temporary orders on money and seeking 50/50 parenting time.

Better to phrase it as "50/50 parenting time at a minimum".  You will be filing with some details of her poor behavior?  But only ask for equal time?  Yes, your court might be reluctant to grant more to a father, but position yourself as the substantively better behaved parent.  Do not limit yourself needlessly.

If you ask for equal time and she asks for 99%, might the judge  "split the difference" and grant her temp custody and 75% majority time?

Even equal parenting authority can be problematic.  Ask your lawyer whether it's possible to seek Decision Making or Tie Breaker status.  There will be many times your spouse will refuse to agree to common sense solutions.  Sure, having that decision status isn't a perfect solution, your stbEx could still protest it in court, but at least you wouldn't have to wait months for some professional to decide the outcome.

My history... Upon our separation some 15+ years ago - she was arrested for Threat of DV - that court gave me temp protection by assigning me in possession of our home.  She rushed over to family court and filed her own ex-parte protection order against me and included our preschooler.  Within a couple weeks we both appeared for the hearing and the CPS investigator stood up and stated they had "no concerns" about me.  So our child was excluded from her petition.

But family court still had to set a temp order going forward.  Despite her pending Threat of DV charge, me in possession of our home and CPS having no concerns about me, she got temp custody and temp majority time.  (That's how I learned that a spouse's poor adult behaviors does not automatically impact a spouse's presumed parenting ability.)  Of course everyone told me that my lack of custody and only alternate weekends was "just temporary" but I was stuck with that until the divorce's final decree TWO YEARS later.  Our sort of cases take longer than most.

[livednlearned]

Telling the kids can be really hard.

Your situation will be specific to you, and how they react. You might be surprised at what they say or how they process it.

Apologies if I'm repeating myself here but one thing I remember reading (after I left with my son, who was 10) is to drop into their worldview as much as you can. "Mom and dad both love you" is not necessarily what a 13-year-old is thinking about when suddenly there will be two homes.

Things like, "will I have two toothbrushes?" and "do I have to tell my friends" are probably racing through their minds more than who loves who. And it's probably better to focus on what you know -- you love them. Let them work out what love means when it comes to their mom without labeling it, because for all they know, that kind of love is extraordinarily painful.

One of the best books I read post-divorce was Bill Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids. It's what led me to think of myself sort of like an emotional tuning fork. I was so stressed and anxious and so guess who was also stressed and anxious . S10 developed tics that popped up and went away almost to the moment I realized how much I needed to help center him by getting myself centered.

It's tough when you have a firehose of pain and abuse pointed at you 24/7 but you'll be in your own space, where you get to be you, and the kids will be attuned to how that feels, even as they surf their own confusing feelings.

My kid's nervous system is vulnerable so it might not be as pronounced, but I kinda think all kids are hoping someone's got this thing and is leading them to a more stable, safe environment, even when they're acting out or mad at you.

It's really sad it's come to this, and it's so tragic that there's not much that can be done when someone refuses to seek treatment or blame everyone else for their pain.

Your relationship with your kids might be different so this might not be advised, but my kid felt more confident when he saw I was confident. One day as we headed into our new apartment he said, "I feel bad for dad because he's probably lonely." And before I could check myself I answered, "He should've thought about that when he was being mean to us." He kind of lit up because that's how kid logic works and he knew it to be true. I spent a lot of years making excuses for his dad and that got really confusing. Being mean is being mean. Sometimes it's best to call it for what it is.

Kids aren't dumb. My son had friends at school but some of them concerned me, including a kid who behaved like a covert bully. After changing our family circumstances, and after S10 started a new school, he seemed to pick better friends. I think leaving his dad gave him a pick-me-up that I never anticipated. It signaled that you don't need to take it in the chin day in and day out. People can't just walk all over you.

Yes, it's true the family is breaking up. You're also choosing safety and well-being and defining what happens when people treat you like garbage. "I didn't like how I felt, how I was being treated" turns out to be a really helpful thing for kids to see modeled for them.

Hang in there, and lean on this board for support when you need it. 

It's going to be hard, and change is exhausting, but there's a good chance things will settle down into something that lets you feel like you can be more like yourself, giving your kids permission to be that way too.

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks - I’ve got a great relationship with the 13 yo. She does confide in me. Thanks for turning me back to focus on the emotional abuse. It is subtle so I will think about whether I am not giving it sufficient weight.

[AlleyOop23]

The cautionary tale is is helpful. Thank you for delivering it. Rather than scare me it makes me feel better. It makes me feel I’m getting advice that helps me consider more angles and possibilities. And it affirms my resolve to be unwielding.

I’ve gone cold and hard inside. I crossed some line and I can’t even force myself to feel bad for her right now. I’m just sick of it. I can’t wait to get the temp orders and get out of here.


On those few occasions when it’s the three of us without her and I just let them be kids and I can feel them depressurizing it just makes me feel good.

[AlleyOop23]

I’m dealing with some micro decisions could use your input.

1. We have 4 tickets to a
Show Friday. The kids are excited they’ve not seen it. I have a conference over the weekend and was going to fly out Saturday morning. It has now gotten so hostile I don’t want to go. I also
Don’t want my kids to think I am not excited to go with them. Left to myself, I would simply go to the conference that’s my preference.
If I skip the show do I tell my kids the truth? That I prefer to go but their mother is making it so awkward and difficult I’m just not going to go? Thereby upending the “united front don’t blame the other parent” convention.

2. Daughter 13 hurt her back a few weeks ago. And she really did. Both her mother and I now suspect she is exaggerating the injury to avoid returning to swim team.  (Using injury to avoid something is a LONG standing behavior by this kid going back
To like age 4).

We both agree this kid has to do something and she can quit swim but needs some sport. Also it’s too soon to quit this. She’s actually good at it.

This morning in front of her sister and two sleep over friends her mother  decided to call her out on it. When I intervened she turned on me (outside their hearing) and essentially said I was a dupe easily manipulated by our daughter  and  prone to believing her false tears and that she (mother) had intentionally brought it up in front of friends (though did not explain why).

I’m left in the messed up position of letting these things go or weighing in and making it worse.  Any advice? Plus I do need to deal with my kid on this. She’s not being honest, I don’t think. mom isn’t imagining it.

I believe I have to think about these things in the now but also for years. These are two perfect examples.
1. I will probably avoid things like parties at my stbx’s jouse or
Limit involvement due to stbx’s behavior. And that’s the only reason.


2. There will be legitimate issues that arise on which we disagree and I see having the additional job of trying to keep daughter’s self esteem intact without over correcting into being indulgent.


Theee are big issues I realize there’s no perfect advice but if you have thoughts or experiences please share!

[AlleyOop23]

Ps my kids are perceptive. I’m sure they know when I avoid things that their mother’s aggression is part of it. So not only do I want to make sure they know it isn’t them. But I also want to quit bullPLEASE READting them.

[ForeverDad]

1. I will probably avoid things like parties at my stbx’s house or
Limit involvement due to stbx’s behavior. And that’s the only reason.

Ended acting-out PD relationships require long lasting policies.  In my own case, the conflict had risen so high that we never entered the other's home once separated and divorced.  (Now that son is grown and custody is not an issue, it's not such a strict rule but I am always aware that literally any comment could trigger her all over again.)

So, what to do for parties or events?  Ponder your situation.  Some members here have decided to have two birthday parties.  If you have the event that year (usually alternated) then your ex can have her own celebration at another time.  If you don't have the event that year then you can set a date for your own alternate event.  Same concept with other holidays.

Some kids grow to like having two sets of holidays.

And the benefit is that you can maintain the need for separate households, separate celebrations.

Of course that won't work with school events, you can't double them.  But they're not at ex's house, right?

[EyesUp]

@OP
Sorry, I don't see the schedule conflict with the show on Friday night and a Sat AM departure.  Are you saying that due to conflict with your partner, you no long want to go to the show, and using an early departure on Friday as an excuse?

My $0.02. Always prioritize what's best for the kids. If sitting this one out is best for the kids, do that.  It has nothing to do with your schedule, which isn't really in conflict this time. The kids will come to recognize that doing things with parents individually is the new normal - make this is as easy and seamless for them as possible, as their mom might not...   If you're not comfortable leaving your kids with mom at this point, you have a different answer.

About the swimming thing.

It sounds like there's a method to mom's madness... i.e., engage social pressure. We know this is often an important factor for PD'd individuals, so it's not surprising that mom might actually view this proactive parenting...  fwiw, I agree with you that it might not be the best approach.

In any case, I'd prioritize your daughter's well being.  If you feel that the serious injury has been properly addressed and your daughter is well enough to return to swim, then you need to address the underlying avoidance behavior associated with this instance, as well as with a more established pattern that goes back to toddler years.  Given the changes that are likely coming to your family, have you considered either family therapy (super difficult with a PD'd participant), or individual therapy for your kids?  If possible, it's good to have those relationships established before the D process is rolling - so that the kids have an objective 3rd party in place to help them navigate a lot of feelings and uncertainty as things progress.

As for joint events with mom...

In my case, I think I could do it, but my uBPDxw projects all responsibility for the failure of the marriage on to me, is easily triggered, etc., so I have not pushed on this topic.  So far (coming up on 3 years since separation, and 2 years since D was finalized), all b-days for 3 kids have fallen during my ex's parenting time.  My ex scheduled the parties (and asked me to pay but not to attend...), but I still celebrated with a small cake, etc., when I'd see the kids a day or two later.  This year, two kids' b-days fall on days they are with me, and so I will celebrate at my house.  I do wish that we could coordinate to throw a party together, but that's not in the cards.  It's also less important for some kids as they get older.  My uBPDxw never wanted to include family in the kids' parties when they were young - we did the usual gym / arts / ice cream place parties when they were toddlers and in pre-school, but as they aged out of those formats my ex wanted to do "afternoon tea with mommy" and make the special day about her... (N traits? Probably), and so the kids don't really expect a large gathering with friends or family at this point.  I share this story because perhaps it will help you think ahead better than I did to ensure you celebrate in whatever way is best for you, your traditions, your family - and most of all - for your kids.

FWIW, when I always greet my ex-inlaws warmly at school concerts, recitals, etc. - and make a point to let the kids know (directly or indirectly) that I'm always going to be there for them, and I'm not going to put them in any kind of conflict-bind with their mom or mom's family.

[AlleyOop23]

So many times my stbx has had a mental crisis requiring me to drop everything and go deal with it. We did that again yesterday. She screamed at me for an hour. At this point I am tolerating this to keep it from spilling over when the kids are home. I used to do it because I was afraid of losing her and of being a bad spouse.

After I leave I get these messages. Background she’s had suicidal ideation and I’ve gone behind her back to make sure her psychiatrist and doctor know about it. She’s sees them both regularly.

Texts-
I can hold on anymore with this much pain.
You’ll never know how much worse that all made it for me. That was truly a cliff you pushed me over.
Be a good dad to them. Figure out what that means.
Make sure they are heard and loved. And don’t compromise what best for them for what me you cimforwbleZ get them what they need make sure if if
Make sure! You have to give them everything I’d give them
They’ll need you so much.
It will all be beentre this way
You’ll finally have to figure it out without me around
I really hope the three of you can have a good life


So I turn around and call 911. The police come I get there and she’s furious. Still furious. I was honestly scared she’s never talked like that before. But aware it could be manipulation. I’d have been back with the kids within an hour and I really doubt she’d risk that kind of experience for them.

After they leave she tells me she said whatever they needed to hear to leave. She says “you should have let me go.”. And “you don’t know what was actually going. On and now I’ll never trust you.” She accused me of calling the police to pad the record for a custody fight. She told me to move out immediately. I said I would not. That I’ll be out by the end of February latest but not abruptly and not without preparing the kids. In our state I risk the temporary custody result if I move  out now before a hearing.

I’m putting this up here not knowing what I’ll get back. I realize if she actually does want to commit suicide I cannot stop her. My belief is that wasn’t a real threat or attempt. If it was manipulative hopefully the fact that I’ll call 911 made that less attractive. But I called 911 because I thought they’d get there before me. (They didn’t)

It was really messed up and I feel like o got run over emotionally. Ot was a real low point.

[EyesUp]

@AlleyOop -

You're in the thick of it. Making that 911 call was absolutely the right thing to do, on every level. 

As an aside, I had to make a similar call, and I don't regret it.

Your stbx is going to be extra extra spicy from here on out - Expect it.

If holidays and kids' birthdays and other "normal" events can be triggering, you don't need to imagine what the uncertainty and emotional turmoil of separation and divorce will bring... 

Don't lose sight of this:  You're also experiencing this separation and divorce, and it's also a major change for you. But are you raging at your stbx, threatening self harm, or otherwise acting out? 

You have the benefit of self-awareness, reflection, objectivity...  your stbx does not. Chaos is generally surprising, but somehow less surprising when it happens all the time. Expect more of the same from your stbx. Just for reinforcement... From here on out, you need to continue to be a sphinx, a statue, unmoveable - grey rock.

Make sure that your mediator and/or atty are aware that of the text communication prior to the 911 call, as your stbx will likely try to reframe it. PD'd individuals are super triggered when exposed - I expect that she will strongly resent that you made that call, and may attempt to deny it or somehow change it or to take revenge for it. She will not be able to accept responsibility - she will try to shift it to you.
 
Don't be surprised if whoever responded to the 911 call has a follow up action to interview you. Be prepared to calmly and concisely explain the situation. Do not be surprised if your stbx makes her own 911 call and makes a false DV (domestic violence) claim. Now is the time to have your dvr (digital voice recorder) running 24/7 as long as you continue to cohabitate - whether legal in your state or not, it is the only thing that will save you if your stbx makes that allegation. I know it's slightly reckless to advise recording if it's illegal in your state, but - people have been in your situation and have been saved by recording. Try to find evidence that anyone has ever been convicted of illegally recording in their own home after presenting audio evidence... it doesn't happen. When the police come to your house, you will be arrested without much discussion unless you immediately say: "I have a recording of the past 24 hours that shows all claims are false, and I will make no further statement without my attorney present". You may still get carried away to the station, but at least her motion for sole occupancy, restraining order, etc., based on DV will be denied (and she will be exposed again).

If she makes some call to CPS, do not speak to them without an atty present, period. If they come to your house, don't open the door, tell them you'll be glad to schedule a time to speak with them at your atty's office. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but as the saying goes: Hope for the best, Prepare for the worst.

How's it going with resources for the kids? I'd advise proposing therapists to your stbx via email. This will help document that you're the parent with the kids' interests front and center as you go through this.

Words of encouragement: As I went through this, and finally started to see my uBPDxw more clearly, my resolve to proceed only got stronger. When my D process started, I was still ambivalent. I didn't want a D, but I accepted that I didn't have a healthy marriage. But as I moved through the D process, I came to embrace the D - in the end, it couldn't happen fast enough. Separation did help to chart a new routine. I never slept better than that first night of separation... 

Hang in there.

[SaltyDawg]

AlleyOop23,

   You absolutely did the right thing by ringing 911.  You didn't know if your wife was manipulating the situation, or she was genuine - one simply cannot tell how serious they are about doing this, it can go from manipulation to a serious suicide attempt in mere seconds - I have witnessed this with my own wife (putting pills in her mouth) and with another person too.

   Since you are moving through divorce, absolutely preserve that text message, and get a copy of the 911 report too, and turn it over to your attorney, they will be able to use this documentation if your stbxw has a different narrative that what is evidenced with the text.

   Now that your stbxw knows you will ring 911 if she does that - if I were a betting man, I am willing to wager that you will no longer see this kind of behavior from your wife as she will experience this consequence of her actions (unless she actually follows through, and then it will be the police letting you know after someone finds her).

   Encourage your stbxw to text or ring 988 if she feels this way again instead of messaging you, where you will be compelled to follow through on the boundary of ringing 911.  988 will do an assessment if it needs to be escalated to 911, otherwise, the conversation she has with 988 will be kept in confidence in accordance HIPAA rules.

   If you want the 'screaming' rages to stop from your stbxw, consider putting in place a stronger boundary in place, that you can manage.  For my uBPDw, I've put an end to my wife's screaming, even though it returned briefly this past Tuesday in an episode (it used to be as frequent as being done on a daily basis and on a few occasions more than once per day, now it averages about once per month for the past half year).  I will simply not engage (with JADE, or any other conversation) when she becomes this way.  I give her a warning, and then follow through with it - in essence I 'gray rock' her when she does this, our former therapist wanted me to give her 10 minutes, this is not enough time for her to re-regulate her emotions, so I offer to talk about it again tomorrow morning (it requires a sleep cycle for my wife to re-regulate, and occasionally two).  I record my wife's screaming deregulation (when I can) on my cell phone.  You might want to do the same here, as you want to limit the amount of abuse that goes to our children.  Since I have boundaries, my wife took it out on our daughter (17) initially, until I intervened - when you toughen yourself up from her target of blame, it may shift elsewhere, as it did for me, and you need to have a plan to protect your children from this kind of behavior as my 12 yo has also been her target occasionally before I can put myself between them.  No one should be subjected to this kind of behavior.

   Be sure to do some self-care, as I am sure this took a lot of your emotional energy, to fill your cup back up, so you have enough energy when she does this again.

   Take care.

SD

[AlleyOop23]

Well, Monday I canceled my day and spent 6 hours listening to my stbx. She was unsatisfied and thought I should have followed up later that night of the next morning. I’d planned to. Doesn’t matter. 915 am she calls me at work losing her mind and rage texting me for neglecting her. I go home and she screams at me for 45 minutes straight. At the end she grabs a yeti water bottle and slams it into the kitchen counter as hard as she can, repeatedly. She leaves. She texts insisting I leave tonight. She makes veiled threats about an altercation over it and calls to the police.

I spent a lot of time on the phone with lawyers. Do I stay and risk jail? Or leave and be cast as an abandoning father.

Mostly I get “can’t you just avoid her?”

When I get home she assures me if I try to stay I will have to physically assault her.

I decided she was serious. She also hid my meds contacts and glasses to ensure I’d leave. The criminal attorney I talked to was pretty blunt about me going to jail and getting a no contact order .  So I left after my kids went to bed.
I’m sleeping at the place I rented in a sleeping bag.

My plan currently is to file for divorce and get a restraining order against her. I can’t live by threat. I was not going to do that.

How did my life end up like this? My poor kids didn’t ask for this.

[ForeverDad]

Do you have any documentation or witnesses of her aggressive behavior?

I separated over 15 years ago when all I had were so audio files from voice recorders with her ranting and rages.  She did virtually all of her acting-out in private scenarios such as at home or while we were driving.  I figured that if she claimed to be a helpless victim then recordings of reality would reduce my risks of allegations.

She still made allegations but somehow I managed to avoid getting arrested. My lawyer said that was a real risk and it would be very, very expensive to defend myself.

I've since then come up with a wonderful way to describe why I recorded.  "I was only recording myself to document I wasn't the one being aggressive and abusive.  If others there were recorded too, well..."

It is important that you don't leave the kids behind.  However, it can be difficult to bring them with you since attempting that would likely create a nasty incident.  The legal but darned slow way would be to file for a protection order and include the kids, assuming you have some documentation of her poor parenting behavior.  At the least you ought to be able to walk out from the hearings with a "temp" custody and parenting order.

Problem is, many courts may still be likely to ignore that mothers can be abusive.  Back when I separated my court defaulted to a preference for mothers.  (She had been charged with Threat of DV yet she got temp custody and majority parenting until the final divorce decree two years later.  Apparently a person could be a bad adult yet not impact her mothering?)  I hear it's better in many areas now, but it's still a risk that you could face resistance to fathers stepping up to parent.

[AlleyOop23]

You sound like my lawyers. Dont move out and don’t get arrested.

I’m literally going to have to camp out in my room and wait to get jumped and hope the police don’t arrest me.

I have never felt this alone and helpless in my entire life.

[kells76]

Have you already tried setting up a meeting at the police station where you can discuss your concerns and ask them to either make a record of the meeting, and/or ask them what they'd recommend?

You can go down to the station on a lunch break from work, for example, or other non-crisis time. Describe your situation to them, ask to get this meeting on the record somehow, and ask them what you should do if XYZ happens. Or, call the non-emergency number first, and ask if you can just drop in or need to set up an appointment.

Also, review if your US state is a "mandatory arrest", "discretionary arrest", or other state. Sometimes, if a DV call is made, the police may be required to arrest one party no matter what. Other times, they may be able to use their own discretion and an arrest isn't legally required. This list may be helpful, though definitely double check with your local police.

Getting something on the record ahead of time about your concerns may mitigate the fear that the police will just arrest you. They may not -- see if you can work with them ahead of time.

[ForeverDad]

When I called emergency line, first time, two police cars responded.  One officer asked me to hand my quietly sobbing preschooler over to his mother and "step away".  My kid shrieked and clung tighter to me.  He refused to go to his angry looking mother.  (I know, kids don't get choices.)  I suspected me stepping away was to cart me off.  The officer pondered me for a moment, said "work it out" and they left.

Months later when I got a new lawyer (for the separation morphing into a divorce) he remarked, "I used to be a police officer.  We always separate the couples after responding to a family dispute call.  We always default to removing the man.  I'm surprised they didn't."

I always say, my preschooler saved me that day.

[EyesUp]

I spent a lot of time on the phone with lawyers. Do I stay and risk jail? Or leave and be cast as an abandoning father.

Mostly I get “can’t you just avoid her?”

When I get home she assures me if I try to stay I will have to physically assault her.

I decided she was serious. She also hid my meds contacts and glasses to ensure I’d leave. The criminal attorney I talked to was pretty blunt about me going to jail and getting a no contact order .  So I left after my kids went to bed.
I’m sleeping at the place I rented in a sleeping bag.

@AlleyOop

I'm going to switch into straight-talk express mode.

If you leave the marital home, you are essentially saying "I'm 100% comfortable leaving the kids with her" - you need to get back in there ASAP and don't work with any attorney that tells you differently. 

Tell her it was a cooling off period.  If she immediately rages, be ready to take action.

Do you have a voice recorder yet?  Get one ASAP, and use it 24/7 - essential before you go back, and essential whenever you have any contact - at home, on the phone - all the time.

The recording of her comments re: physical assault are/were your get-out-of-jail card. 

You can't get a restraining order against her from wherever you are.  You need to get back in the house, immediately call 911 when she rages, and then get the restraining order.  If she makes a false call against you, present your voice recorder.

You can file for D anytime, you don't need to get the restraining order first, but - be ready for anything.

As you continue dialog with attorneys, you need a litigator - not a negotiator.   You're seeking a veteran family law attorney with experience in litigating (not negotiating) high-conflict cases.  Be explicit about what you want to accomplish, i.e., goal to be primary parent, but no less than 50-50 parenting time due to your many concerns.  Attorneys will ask about evidence - mention the prior 911 call... 

Good luck and hang in there.

[livednlearned]

I have never felt this alone and helpless in my entire life.

We're here with you. You're not alone.

<Breathe>

You're in the part of the hero's journey where it can seem dark but there are people here who care about you and can help guide you.

If you haven't already, write down everything that happened. If there's someone you trust, tell them what happened. Or have them write things down and send you an email after the call detailing what you told them, with a recommendation to speak to a criminal lawyer.

We had a member on this board from years ago named Matt. I'm channeling his advice here -- if your wife is making threats about false allegations, consult with a criminal lawyer to help you stay a few steps ahead. Hopefully, you won't need to retain that lawyer, that advice is there to protect you from things getting any harder.

I gotta say ... it's good she's telling you this is on her mind. I know it feels horrible where you're at, but better here than having her blindside you with an actual allegation. A criminal law attorney will probably be thrilled that you're calling from your sleeping bag versus jail.

Family law attorneys usually specialize in negotiation. A criminal attorney is going to give you very specific advice about dealing with a false allegation.

I agree too with EyesUp about making sure your family law attorney is able to litigate. Mine was and it makes all the difference, something I didn't understand until my ex cranked up the drama and became a vexatious litigant. We were in court an average of once a month for 4 years  . Some lawyers are good at paperwork and some are good at arguing on your behalf, and ideally yours will be the latter.

When you consult with a criminal attorney ask what steps to take. That will help build that trail of documentation so it's crystal clear who the aggressor is. I'm not sure if threatening to falsely accuse you is the same as falsely accusing you -- a criminal lawyer who specializes in DV will be able to tell you.

Only a criminal lawyer can tell you whether to return to the marital home or not. Your family law attorney probably hasn't walked this razor's edge and is simply telling you what will make the case easier, versus what to do with an actual threat.

I know these emotions are probably flooding you. Dread is the worst.

This board helped me through some similarly dark times and guided me through these hard forks. You've got people here who really understand what you're going through 

[SaltyDawg]

AlleyOop,

I agree 100% with Eyes Up.

I also agree with LnL, and to do some self-care even if it is just 'breathing'.  We know this is stressful for you. 

I will add the following, that I can personally attest, once you get out of the picture, the target of blame and bad behaviors will shift to the next most vulnerable person that she loves in her immediate vicinity - the child(ren).

This has been observed in both of my current and past pwBPD romantic relationships.

Take care.

SD

[Skip]

A cautionary word...

AlleyOop, you sound motivated, but you do not sound prepared at this point. Please don't be offended by this. I say it to help you and your family. And I say this as someone who has watched "this story" (your story) play out many times in other families.

It sounds like you've decided to leave your wife, which is probably right for you. The question is how to do it without traumatizing the children and yourself and losing your kids in the process.

Transitioning from a family (however conflicted) into two households with an emotionally immature spouse in the Northwest family court system is a tricky sea to navigate.

How bad can it get?

One BPDFamily member's story ended up on national television and he was rebuked as an awful father by the morning show anchors (including Matt Lauer) and on multiple networks. Read about it here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Psycho_Ex-Wife). His children was humiliated in the community. Their relationship with dad was destroyed.  

We have another father who ended up on Dr. Phil with his daughters, telling Dr. Phil that their dad sexually abused them. His name and photo ended up being distributed on Facebook by a child abuse agency.

There are many other, less sensational but difficult, stories in our archives.

You have two battles.  The court and legal side.  And the battle to maintain the relationship with your children...

Yes. Yeeter is telling you that this is your achilles heal... often overlooked. You need a lawyer and advisors who get this - genuinely get it (not just lip service).

Moving out before temporary orders are agreed to is typically not in the father's best interest - both in terms of splitting the assets and in terms of setting custody schedules - as has been mentioned by some posters earlier in this thread. Dig into this with members.

In your state, 50/50 visitation is only ordered 20% of the time. The most common visitation for Dad is every other weekend.  Judges generally won't order 50/50 unless the parents clearly have an interest in doing this and they can manage it without making the children's lives an exchange drama. If there is conflict between the divorcing spouses, 50/50 is typically not seen by Judges as being in the children's best interest.

And in a divorce with an "emotionally needy" spouse, Parental Alienation (PAS) is more common than you might think. Children hate it when parents break apart - it shatters the foundation of their lives. They can be vulnerable to one parent playing the victim and blaming this tragedy on the other parent. Some kids will rush to protect mom from dad.

I'm not saying this to convince you to stick out your marriage, but you may need a good plan. Know your risks and get advice/plan how to mitigate them or find acceptance in some of the harsh realities of family court.

Sorry to be a downer, but it's better to hear this now before you find yourself in the middle of something very different than you expect.

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks all. I had roughest day ever. Talked to a criminal attorney, divorce coach, therapist and my family law attorneys. The criminal defense attorney is pretty conservative, former prosecutor, assured me if the police came 99% I end up in jail overnight with a no contact order completely undoing the goal. So staying loses my kids and leaving loses my kids. I told my attorneys I needed serious legal help and a plan.

Given the threats of assault and false reports, hiding the meds and glasses and threats of suicide my family law attorney and paralegal (both as it turns out with extensive domestic abuse work background) recommended I seek a domestic violence protection order. I agreed and they said it was so bad they likely would withdraw if I hadn’t said yes. They’ve done this a lot and given recent events and evidence are certain I’ll qualify.  Working on requested terms tomorrow. Adjusting to demand for full custody in the D case. I went to the house to get some necessary items with a hired PI.

I believe we have the best possible plan. We’ll ask for custody, figure out residence request tomorrow guardian at litem, custody eval and a mental exam and meaningful therapy. 

I do actually feel prepared and represented for context.  The therapist, attorneys, coach, were all great in helping me move forward.

My stbx is really spiraling. She is up and down. Assuming the dvpo is granted she’ll be served with it by law enforcement. I understand that she can’t be my problem. And even that this might help her actually see herself and maybe actually get real help. But I am very worried about her. She’s cut herself off,  burning friendships. If she’s ordered to leave I don’t know where she goes. Or who helps her.

I struggle with the guilt of setting this in motion though it isn’t my fault in the first place. This is the only viable and responsible path. It’s the best optional for my kids. I don’t want to keep them from their mom. Maybe we can figure something out in the dvpo.
And it could flop. I am overwhelmed at the possibility of single dadding 2 traumatized kids, getting myself thru this and running my business.
I’m a long way from anywhere near done.  But decent step.

[SaltyDawg]

AlleyOop,

   Thank you for sharing this glimmer of hope when things seem so dark for you.  It sounds like you have surrounded yourself with a good team that has your best interest in mind. 

   I didn't see any mention of a safety plan in place - if you don't have one yet, get one (use this one for starters https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety-first-dv-1.pdf )

Thanks all. I had roughest day ever. Talked to a criminal attorney, divorce coach, therapist and my family law attorneys. The criminal defense attorney is pretty conservative, former prosecutor, assured me if the police came 99% I end up in jail overnight with a no contact order completely undoing the goal. So staying loses my kids and leaving loses my kids. I told my attorneys I needed serious legal help and a plan.

Follow the advice of all of these people, and if there is a conflict in advice, defer to the family law attorneys recommendation. 

Given the threats of assault and false reports, hiding the meds and glasses and threats of suicide my family law attorney and paralegal (both as it turns out with extensive domestic abuse work background) recommended I seek a domestic violence protection order. I agreed and they said it was so bad they likely would withdraw if I hadn’t said yes. They’ve done this a lot and given recent events and evidence are certain I’ll qualify.  Working on requested terms tomorrow. Adjusting to demand for full custody in the D case. I went to the house to get some necessary items with a hired PI.

What I put in bold, please reflect and ponder statement - even though us 'guys' don't like to admit it, we also can be the victim of DV.  The family law attorney would have withdrawn from representing YOU if you had not agreed to filing a DVPO - this is very serious.

I believe we have the best possible plan. We’ll ask for custody, figure out residence request tomorrow guardian at litem, custody eval and a mental exam and meaningful therapy.

 

Guardian ad Litem - is a court appointed attorney to represent your children's best interest, not yours, not your wife's.  If possible, have your family law attorney make recommendations to the court on who should represent your children's best interest and who they should avoid, if at all possible - just like in any profession, you have good ones, and not so good ones.

I do actually feel prepared and represented for context.  The therapist, attorneys, coach, were all great in helping me move forward.

You are much better prepared than a few days ago.  Just like learning about BPD, learning about this is a process.  The more involved you are, as you have a 'vested interest' you can be of great help to your attorney (and it will help shave costs) - ask your attorney what kinds of information that (s)he needs to aid you and your children's situation so you can have the best possible outcome for your children and yourself.

My stbx is really spiraling. She is up and down. Assuming the dvpo is granted she’ll be served with it by law enforcement. I understand that she can’t be my problem. And even that this might help her actually see herself and maybe actually get real help. But I am very worried about her. She’s cut herself off,  burning friendships. If she’s ordered to leave I don’t know where she goes. Or who helps her.

I struggle with the guilt of setting this in motion though it isn’t my fault in the first place. This is the only viable and responsible path. It’s the best optional for my kids. I don’t want to keep them from their mom. Maybe we can figure something out in the dvpo.

As soon as she is served the DVPO, this is when your stbx will become most dangerous, for the next day or two - she will have lost any perception of control of the situation, and she will become very desperate with a 'nothing to lose' mentality and has the potential to emotionally explode in an irrational and possibly unforseen way(s) towards you - make sure you have a body camera on you person at all times, it is fully charged, has plenty of room on the memory card, and is recording as this will be your 'get out of jail free card' should she physically attack you as a result of this order being served to her after law enforcement leaves.  Make sure your cell phone is fully charged too in case you need to call 911 and get the back ASAP.

Right now you need to keep the children away from her, at least until you know what her mental state is.  I will share with you, now that I have hardened myself with strong boundaries against 'abuse', my wife has shifted her violent tendencies towards my daughter for the first time ever where she threw a shovel in anger towards her - I am taking this very seriously, I did share this with our couple's therapist, a former CPS LCSW and is in agreement with me.  Please be under no illusion that your stbx may lose it on your children, if they are not with you to protect them!  I know my wife is capable of it, as she demonstrated it through her actions, last week even though she professes otherwise where she 'cares for the children' - the facts do not mesh with her stated version of caring.

And it could flop. I am overwhelmed at the possibility of single dadding 2 traumatized kids, getting myself thru this and running my business.
I’m a long way from anywhere near done.  But decent step.

Until it actually 'happens' it could flop, so have a backup plan in place.  It is very overwhelming that you  have to go through this.  Perhaps brainstorm with your therapist and/or close confidante on how to pivot and shift to being a single dad of 2 traumatized kids.

I'm glad you realize that you are a long way from being 'anywhere near done', and yes, you have taken a few decent steps towards this.  Use your team for support, come here and vent, and we can offer you emotional support as well.

In any event, be mindful that your stbx might be recording you too, in addition to your own recording device (which can be subpoenaed).  ALWAYS keep your cool, do not display any anger, contempt, or do anything that could make you look bad in a custody battle, even if it is tearing you up on the inside.

It is okay to cry, it is okay to feel the way you do, even if you feel a lot of FOG (fear obligation and guilt) right now towards this situation, this is what makes you, human with a heart, compassion, and empathy towards this situation.

Now, more than ever, please do self-care, whatever that might look like for you, as you need to fill your cup to keep 'being there' for your children, and yourself with your business.

If you know the date/time the DVPO will be served, and when you will get custody of your children, perhaps plan a trip for a few days with your children, out of town (at least 50 miles if not more), perhaps an indoor water-park to distract both your children and you from the situation, and this will put a distance between you and the stbx so there can be no physical altercation (still have your body cam on, in case she has tracking on your phone, and/or your children's and locates you - turn off the GPS position on each of these devices if you can prior to going on the trip).  If she shows up in violation of the order, it works to your advantage as it will show 'intent' on deliberately violating the order as she has gone 100+ miles and several hours out of her way.

Take care.  You 'got this'.

SD

[AlleyOop23]

Thanks. Lots of FOG. I get things done and then cry. I try to picture the future reality of the family so I can frame it for my kids but of course I can’t. My subconscious keeps trying to minimize all this so life can be ‘normal’ and not awful.
I keep trying to figure how I’m going to frame this for my kids. They know things are bad.  But they don’t know things are dvpo bad. Or even that situations like this happen

I can’t think of anything like this in my community as a child I can relate to.  Certainly not with the mom.

[Tangled mangled]

Thanks. Lots of FOG. I get things done and then cry. I try to picture the future reality of the family so I can frame it for my kids but of course I can’t. My subconscious keeps trying to minimize all this so life can be ‘normal’ and not awful.
I keep trying to figure how I’m going to frame this for my kids. They know things are bad.  But they don’t know things are dvpo bad. Or even that situations like this happen

I can’t think of anything like this in my community as a child I can relate to.  Certainly not with the mom.

You are right in the middle of the worst part of all this. Being stuck literally in a situation that could go awfully wrong.

Please be sure to keep video recordings of your dealings with your pwbpd. When I was in the same situation the police advised me to have video records to support my claim. In my case I faced the fear of being physically attacked by someone who is almost twice my size. In yours your biggest threat is a false claim of DV.
Things got better after I left and although the children were upset and blamed me initially, they are doing well 8 months after the separation. We are no longer in flight or fight mode.
Hang in there and protect yourself with body cameras.

[Skip]

Trying to understand the plan...

Are you hoping to serve a DVPO on her and have her move out of the marital home (and away from the children) until the end of February and? In that time you are going to serve with divorce papers asking for full custody, and try to get before a judge to get temporary orders in place? In temporary orders you are asking for full custody (or 50/50)?

And then you will move to your new place under the terms of the temporary orders?

I understand that this is just unfolding... just trying to get our hands around it.

[AlleyOop23]

I’ll file for divorce asap. It’s unfolding. Probably full custody we are deciding today on what to do about the home and where to live. I don’t want to live there. But the place I rented I just got and have ZERO furniture not e en a garbage csn

[AlleyOop23]

I can’t get my head around my 13 yos bat mitzvah. It’s in 3 months. Mom and 13 yo planning a big party. I’m a non Jewish spouse and parent.

I didn’t crest this situation but I am mindful of the pace in my 13 yos psyche that a ruined bar mitzvah holds if it is ruined due to a restraining order.

[SaltyDawg]

Thanks. Lots of FOG. I get things done and then cry. I try to picture the future reality of the family so I can frame it for my kids but of course I can’t. My subconscious keeps trying to minimize all this so life can be ‘normal’ and not awful.
I keep trying to figure how I’m going to frame this for my kids. They know things are bad.  But they don’t know things are dvpo bad. Or even that situations like this happen

I can’t think of anything like this in my community as a child I can relate to.  Certainly not with the mom.

I would recommend contacting the national domestic violence hotline at https://www.thehotline.org/ and they should be able to point you in a good direction to frame it in an age appropriate way, or your own therapist should be able to help too.

How old are your daughters?  I know one is 13, can you remind me how old the other one is?

How much of the violence have they witnessed, perhaps you can explain that mommy has an illness (in the head) and needs help, and is going away in order to get this help and to keep them (your children) safe.  Try and coordinate her being served with the DV order while the children are at school.

Those are my initial thoughts on this matter.  I have a S12 and D17, with whom I explain in an 'age appropriate' way of my wife's behaviors that are not normal, when she has a major 'episode', and my S has had therapy on this as well, so if and when it happens they will already have an understanding of the circumstances behind it, even if they may not like it.  Children know a lot more than you may think, when I started talking to mine about it, they had already teamed up between themselves in order to deal with mom and dad's "toxic" (invalidating) behaviors.  I was included, as I would often validate my wife's opinion (when appropriate). 

Talk with them, and you might be pleasantly surprised on how much they already know, and it will be incredibly validating to them that you know as well, and that you have their back - this is what happened to me.  Just be sure, that they know that you are their parent, and you will still need to do the parenting - they will understand and respect boundaries if they push back on you.

Encourage them to ask questions, and answer them to the best of your ability, in an age appropriate way.  If you don't know the answer, tell them you don't know (write the question down) and tell them you will find out.  It is important to validate your children's feelings during this time.  Focus on their feelings, and only address the facts if they force the issue.

By talking to them about it, ask them what they know (put them in the driver's seat), weigh what they tell you, and use that as a starting point from their respective perspective - this is what I have done, and I am glad I have already done this, so if and when a PO is necessary I will be as prepared as I possibly can.  I suspect you haven't done this yet, so you are a little bit behind the 8-ball on this; however, when you do have the conversation, understand what they know, and run with that information to get them to a better place.  Perhaps schedule a family therapy session an hour or two after school to deal with this.

Will CPS be involved with the DVPO?  If so, they will be on your side, and can be a valuable resource in this matter.

Lots to think about, keep getting stuff done (even if you are in tears doing so). 

Take care.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

I can’t get my head around my 13 yos bat mitzvah. It’s in 3 months. Mom and 13 yo planning a big party. I’m a non Jewish spouse and parent.

I didn’t crest this situation but I am mindful of the pace in my 13 yos psyche that a ruined bar mitzvah holds if it is ruined due to a restraining order.

3 months is a very long time away right now - revisit this after the dust settles from the DVPO and initial custody hearings when you know more of the facts.  I strongly suspect it will most likely be possible to have the bat mitzvah, add this to your list of questions for the family law attorney the next time you talk to them on how to handle this.

[EyesUp]

@AlleyOop.  A lot of moving parts, but you're moving.  The hardest steps are the first steps, and you're stepping...

Very good comments from Skip.

Do you have that voice recorder or cameras going?  Do not sleep on this.

In regard to the GAL.  This can be requested or ordered.  If requested, I encourage you to ask your atty to recommend 3 options that can be presented to your wife.  You should have some comfort with the options, rather than leaving it up to the judge/court to assign their buddy or whoever is next in rotation.  Some GALs have the right training for cases like yours, some don't.  If this is a request, then you have some chance to influence the selection process by at least completing your own review to ensure that the options that are presented to your wife have the right background.

The GAL request may not be entirely necessary - it really depends on how the next steps play out, and what your wife and her counsel may or may not be prepared to accept.  There's a chance that when facing huge consequences for her behavior, her entitlement and rage may begin to deflate... or, lacking funds to engage a protracted legal battle, she may be prepared to settle - at least for a moment - in which case, you might be able to side step the GAL, at least for a moment.  

Please try to separate your need for emotional support from your need for legal support.

Come here and speak with your T for emotional support (plus some practical advice from those who have been through it).  This will help reduce your legal expenses (no point paying them to listen to you vent unless it's to help make the strategy).

Not to cast doubt, however I am slightly concerned that your counsel is hot to trot on the GAL before the basic filing and or request for DVPO are complete.  It's good to anticipate and learn and prepare for this possible path, but it may also indicate that your atty sees a high conflict case and is ready to sign you up for the ultra-delux, all-inclusive, most-expensive divorce package.

In cases like ours, it might not be avoidable - but still better to go in armed with knowledge of options so you can proceed with confidence.

But here's the thing you need to keep in mind:  You cannot fully outsource this.  You can hire a "team" of "experts" - but much like your business, it's up to you to run this thing.  They all work for you.  You are the President and CEO of your divorce - and your life.

The way it works in my state, you're not assigned a judge until you file.  And your attorney might want to advise strategy based on experience with the specific judge in the case... Some judges are more nimble with the GAL process than others.  

Signing up for a GAL before you're at that point might be a great idea - from your atty's POV.  I'd simply want to be sure I fully understand that POV.

It's so much to absorb in very little time, under the most stressful conditions...  

Hang in there.