But what is empathy?

[Springle]

I'm still turning over in my head and trying to establish if I do indeed have BPD or not .

I am currently investigating therapy but sadly I am in a position at the moment where I can't take time out of week days and most local counselors are already booked up evenings and weekends.

But here is my toughest hurdle, trying to figure out if I feel empathy or not. Like what is empathy? How would you know you feel it? Rather than just sympathy. I'm very confused, I mean, I think I feel it but perhaps it is more compassion or something else. How would you know? What is it truly?

[Turkish]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=210574.0

DSM 5 Empathy Assessment Levels

Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing. Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.

Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent is awareness of effect of own behavior on others.

Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.

Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering. Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.

Extreme Impairment (4) Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance). Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.

[Algae]

I'm still turning over in my head and trying to establish if I do indeed have BPD or not .

I am currently investigating therapy but sadly I am in a position at the moment where I can't take time out of week days and most local counselors are already booked up evenings and weekends.

But here is my toughest hurdle, trying to figure out if I feel empathy or not. Like what is empathy? How would you know you feel it? Rather than just sympathy. I'm very confused, I mean, I think I feel it but perhaps it is more compassion or something else. How would you know? What is it truly?

Empathy is... .(I'm not a doctor or anything , just a college kid)

Well heres an EXTREME example of empathy that I have.  I was watching a show a while back.  In it there was a crazy serial killer who murdered everyone in a sick sadistic way.  Blood... gore... lots of it.  The killer was autistic though.  And in the ending scene of the show... he was shot in the leg at a carnival and fell to the ground screaming for his mommy.  He was crying and rolling on the ground as the carnival lights went off and carnival rides made happy sounds.

It made you think about him and his life and it made you feel sorry for him.  It made me almost want to cry for the killer, even though he did so many bad things.  It made you think about his life, and his mom, etc.  He probably just wanted to have fun at the carnival, and it wasn't his fault he was autistic but, whatever.

The feeling of empathy it struck in me was almost a disturbing feelings.  I couldnt get it out of my head for days.  I couldnt sleep because of it.  I couldnt eat right.  I kept trying to think about him and his life from the show and how he felt.  Empathy is good... but I have so much of it that I have to restrict myself from watching War movies, playing videogames, or watching what I watch on TV for even a PICTURE I see in a magazine will make me insane to where im sitting in a shower thinking... just thinking.  I get depressed because of somebody elses pain.

So I guess empathy is jsut thinking about someone else and having it move you.

[Fluff]

I too really struggle with the question ":)o I have empathy or only sympathy"

Algae, I think that's what it not is. It sounds like sympathy.

I can for example care a lot about people, get angry at injustice done to other people and so on. But I don't let their feelings enter me. There's no room.

I don't know. This empathy/sympathy thing is weird, because can you really sympathize without empathy? maybe you can if you put yourself in their shoes, instead of feeling what it's like for them.

Edit: Scratch everything, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Nicolai]

Ahh... My BPD ex had the same way. "I think I feel empathy, but I am not sure". Classic! She used to say that she thought she was just aite bit cold or cynical. But as I later found out, she was a complete borderliner. One does not ask yourself if one has empathy. It just is a feeling. You recognise the same feeling that goes through the one you sympathise with. If you have to start wondering if you have it, well... Then you try make logic of it. I am afraid I just got to be honest. Perhaps you are a cold cynical, perhaps you are just really self-absorbed, perhaps you do not have a healthy understanding of other people's emotions, and therefor cannot recognise yourself with them. It might be a million different reasons for it, other then BPD. Only thing they have in common is that they are all negative! Hope this comforts you!

[Turkish]

I was thinking of a quote from the novel To Kill A Mockingbird, where Atticus tells his daughter about "walking a mile in someone's moccasins," which is an old Indian proverb.

www.planetofsuccess.com/blog/2011/developing-empathy-walk-a-mile-in-someone%E2%80%99s-shoes/

The noun em•pa•thy refers to

•   the ability to comprehend another person’s actions and emotions



•    the identification of thoughts and emotional states within others



•    the capacity to understand a persons (emotional) reaction



•   the awareness of another’s problems, without experiencing them

Surprisingly, the ability to empathize with others is relative to a person’s capacity to identify, feel and understand his own feelings and thereby being able to project one’s feelings onto others.

I take this as the capacity for empathy regarding others may be tied to the capacity to empathize with ones' self.

At the opposite of the spectrum is sociopathy, which is another misunderstood term, because surgeons, emergency personnel and others in similar vocations do have to have a certain amount of detachment in order to do their jobs well. So does that mean that empathy is something like feeling, plotted on a scale of emotional attachment to ourselves, projected onto others?

[ajr5679]

the way I think of empathy is that my never and would not take care of me if I was sick. I said to her that my biggest  fear with you. is if I get sick with cancer you wont be there to help me. and when we get older you wont help me. I was on my own. and she said I would not be able to handle it. and she would shut down . if someone needed her for something emotionally she would run just so she did not have to deal with.

[shellbent]

Never really thought of this until I really started thinking about this.

I mean as a kid anytime I saw someone suffering I felt like I had deep empathy for them. Even with an animal. It was to a point that would be even to much to bare. Watching the news, made me feel like a real empath.

However more recently in the past few years perhaps, this seems to be somewhat conditional. After breaking up with my ex I went through a lot of different phases. I don't want to go into them all, but in all of my pain, I did feel like I was unable to feel "empathy" for anyone other than myself. Somehow at this stage I realize that I am so digested by this pain that I simply do not care about what others are going through when I feel bad. Not sure what is causing this, but usually I used to run away from my problems, act like they weren't so serious or that they were nothing to worry about, nothing I can't handle, then by listening to other people's problems and giving them advice I wasn't focusing on myself so much. I think this mostly happens with people who don't understand the type of pain we are going through. So reading all of your stories on here, I care tremendously, it feels like a lot of times I am reliving these feelings by reading your accounts and there is a true feeling of empathy. By relating I can feel it.

Now on the other hand since the b/u I have a hard time thinking of anyone else but myself. (only second to my ex ) Of course I kept telling myself that I can save her, that I can make her pain go away. I guess this blinded me to her real needs and I may have just been totally oblivious to what she was trying to accomplish.

I think once the trauma and broken dreams ware off, I will stop complaining about how effed up this whole situation is. What I can't quite put my finger on is if whether I really cared so much about my ex that I was willing to make her happy even if she was with someone else, or whether I cared about myself so much that I convinced myself that I care about her more. (mind twister)

I try to keep my chin up and keep my eyes open to what kind of future awaits me, we must keep thinking that all that has happened will make each of us change for the better. I know that right now I feel like I have something rotten inside me, that I don't want to ever love anyone the way I did love her. So but was it a healthy love? Yes at one point I felt like there could be no other, but if I'm completely honest with myself, maybe this love was based on my need to feel validated by someone who's inner child also has been scarred? Maybe I just felt as peaceful and secure like being in the womb again. But if I really dissect this feeling, shouldn't there be something great about my ex that I can show? Thinking back now, it was the best I ever felt about myself, yes I felt like she was special and that she understood me better than anyone. But in the foreground, a lot of it has to do with how they made us feel. She is a loving and compassionate person, her loving and compassion however was covering up all of her other traits. I can't remember what she was like anymore. It was just about emotions really, I mean in some sense this r/s was very limited to certain things.

I think we all need to realize what we were meant to learn about ourselves.

I keep thinking of a couple people that I know. Like my uncle has been divorced for 30 years, and he prefers going everywhere alone. He is a very intelligent person, and for all anyone knows he is the happiest person alive! These are the things that I can't identify with. Of course some people don't find it so important to have someone, but I guess in reality we don't need anyone. It gives us comfort and joy to share a life with someone, but it will end one day. What if we are old, if we were never happy with who we were on our own, we would have much less luck living the rest of our lives in peace.

[Blimblam]

The way I see empathy is our relation to others which corresponds to relating on an emotional level how we relate this emotion to our relationship to the corresponding archetype in our mind. How we at that moment relate to that archetype will determine how our empathy triggers our reaction to it. I see these as all filters for the "lonely child".

[Springle]

See, I hate to say it but I still am unsure if I feel empathy.

When people are in a hard fix I find it very difficult to comfort them, I just don't know what to say so tend to just sort of make a sad sort of 'aw' and perhaps say something like 'it will be ok'. I think I can often feel very detached from others emotions/problems because I regularly feel like I have enough of my own to deal with and taking on the weight of someone else's problem means I will buckle; I feel I cannot cope sometimes.

That and over periods of my life I have learnt that if you get too caught up in other people's problems it's hard to escape, you end up not enjoying your time with people because you know all their troubles. I guess in some terrible ways I have painted black and white before .

[Springle]

Following on, I was curious and did some searching and found this test for EQ (Empathy Quotient).

www.psychology-tools.com/empathy-quotient/

I did it and got 20 out of 80, lower than average; lack of empathy, and apparently, more common in people with autism or aspergers :S.

[Blimblam]

Hmm

I scored a 60 I could easily have answered slightly different and scored maybe a 50.

I'm not a big fan of the questions.

[Skip]

I'm not a big fan of the questions.

I don't like the test either.  I think there are fake questions (5. I dream most nights.) in there to keep the core questions no so obvious (60. I can usually appreciate the other person’s viewpoint, even if I don’t agree with it.).

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=210574.0

DSM 5 Empathy Assessment Levels

Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing. Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.

Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent is awareness of effect of own behavior on others.

Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.

Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering. Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.

Extreme Impairment (4) Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance). Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.

Empathy is simply the ability to routinely understand where someone is coming from without being blinded by your own feelings and agenda (see definition above).

This is at the center of emotional maturity.  Many of us have not taken the time to learn this skill.

It is valuable in understanding others, understanding seeming not-understandable situations, and understanding ourselves.

How would others rate you on scale above? 0, 1, 2, 3, 4.

I have a good friend who is a solid 4 (best to rate others).  I think I rate somewhere between 0 - 1.  I really work at it in my life.

[caughtnreleased]

•   the awareness of another’s problems, without experiencing them

Surprisingly, the ability to empathize with others is relative to a person’s capacity to identify, feel and understand his own feelings and thereby being able to project one’s feelings onto others.

Hi, I think actually the awareness of another's problems, without experiencing them... .is the key.  I couldn't understand why I was surrounded with people who were unable to support me when I was dating my BPDex.  I told one of my friends all the things my BPDex told me about himself (mostly his cutting, and having BPD) and instead of helping to calm me down (after all I was the one involved with this guy) she FREAKED OUT! She yelled at me to get the hell away from him... . So on the one hand I had a mess of a guy, on the other, I had a totally emotional friend who was not supportive of me.  What I needed in that moment in order to make a proper decision was someone who could simply understand that I found myself in a difficult situation, with someone that I was very much attached to, but who was clearly unstable.  I needed a friend who could remain sufficiently UNINVOLVED in my problems in order to provide me with objective advice so that I could listen to myself and decide for MYSELF what I needed to do in that situation.  Not tell me what to do... .or make the situation worse by yelling at me and making me feel ashamed of being with him.

So it's being able to understand a person's distress, even if you do not experience their pain or their negative emotions, but are still able understand it, and provide a calm and supportive voice that is not totally involved in their pain, but empathetic to it.  

I think that's maybe why a pwBPD cannot stick around when someone is in difficulty... .perhaps they FEEL the other's pain, and therefore cannot simply be there and supportive, as they experience the pain/fear as well.  

I know I used to lack empathy. Anyone who experienced depression I secretly thought was a loser, or anyone who actually who showed some kind of vulnerability. I ran like it was the plague. I've changed a lot I think. And now I'm trying to cultivate more empathy... .it's hard.  It was never shown to me growing up.   First person I accepted "vulnerability" and "empathy" from was my BPDex... .or at least they were little tiny temporary flakes. I decided I wanted more, of the real thing of course. Still working at it.

[Mutt]

See, I hate to say it but I still am unsure if I feel empathy.

When people are in a hard fix I find it very difficult to comfort them, I just don't know what to say so tend to just sort of make a sad sort of 'aw' and perhaps say something like 'it will be ok'. I think I can often feel very detached from others emotions/problems because I regularly feel like I have enough of my own to deal with and taking on the weight of someone else's problem means I will buckle; I feel I cannot cope sometimes.

That and over periods of my life I have learnt that if you get too caught up in other people's problems it's hard to escape, you end up not enjoying your time with people because you know all their troubles. I guess in some terrible ways I have painted black and white before .

I feel empathy for my BPDex. I have boundaries and I'm detached. She's impulsive and causes her own troubles. I don't rescue.

[peiper]

When getting to know my ExBPD she was telling me about her crappy childhood when she got done I started to tell her about mine. She replied "get over it everyone had a crappy childhood" , Wish I would have actually payed attention to those  

[Blimblam]

I would consider myself a 2 right now.

I've definately been in states where I was a -2 after spending considerable amount of time in the woods. It was like I could hear everyone's thoughts and it was sort of painfull.

[Mutt]

When getting to know my ExBPD she was telling me about her crappy childhood when she got done I started to tell her about mine. She replied "get over it everyone had a crappy childhood" , Wish I would have actually payed attention to those  

She was waifish and wanted sympathy and to be rescued.

[Blimblam]

Honestly I think in the aftermath of a rs with a pwBPD we tend to become self absorbed to heal our wounds. Which I think is sort of necesary to protect ourselves and heal after giving so much of ourselves away. So I think being critical on oneself before one has healed fully from a rs like this is not accurate to who we will be once we have healed. Maybe it's fleas?

[Mutt]

I'm not sure that pwBPD are self critical as they project shame, guilt and feelings of unworthiness on their partners and family. Having said that, how do you catch fleas in that context of being self critical?

I can feel empathy for someone and it doesn't necessarily mean I'm tackling their life problems.

[Blimblam]

I'm not sure that pwBPD are self critical as they project shame and guilt on their partners and family. Having said that, how do you catch fleas in that context of being self critical?

Well I myself became very self critical when I was being devalued and after being discarded and when I decided to break things off. It is still an issue I am working through.

I was like this before I met my most recent ex and was conditioned into this state by my previous ex. Nothing was ever good enough for her. She even told me some of her exes after me broke up with her because they were, "tired of jumping through hoops."

After my breakup with my uBPD ex i didn't know up from down and could barely recognize myself in the mirror left with a black hole of pain and confusion in my chest and I collapsed in on myself to heal.

[fred6]

Wouldn't a good example of empathy or lack of be our exBPD. My ex had no empathy in regards to what I was going through while she was splitting with me. Therefore she didn't change her behavior.

On the flip side, if I was causing someone that much pain. I'm fairly confident that I would have to amend my behavior.

I'm probably wrong about all of this though... .

[fromheeltoheal]

At the opposite of the spectrum is sociopathy, which is another misunderstood term, because surgeons, emergency personnel and others in similar vocations do have to have a certain amount of detachment in order to do their jobs well. So does that mean that empathy is something like feeling, plotted on a scale of emotional attachment to ourselves, projected onto others?

To me empathy is just the ability to feel what someone else is feeling because we've been there, we get it.  If someone is in pain, or happy, because of something we haven't experienced, we can sympathize with them, but not empathize.  Also, we can have the ability to empathize but not the obligation, we can turn it off when and if we need to, which is what emergency personnel and the like do.

See, I hate to say it but I still am unsure if I feel empathy.

When people are in a hard fix I find it very difficult to comfort them, I just don't know what to say so tend to just sort of make a sad sort of 'aw' and perhaps say something like 'it will be ok'. I think I can often feel very detached from others emotions/problems because I regularly feel like I have enough of my own to deal with and taking on the weight of someone else's problem means I will buckle; I feel I cannot cope sometimes.

That and over periods of my life I have learnt that if you get too caught up in other people's problems it's hard to escape, you end up not enjoying your time with people because you know all their troubles. I guess in some terrible ways I have painted black and white before .

We can empathize with someone we don't know, and don't even have to say anything to them, it's just the ability to feel what they are feeling, we can relate.  Comforting, validating, invalidating, whatever, is step two, after empathizing, and I for one have screwed up before by trying to validate someone without empathizing first, being totally off base, and looking like a jerk.  Yes, I can admit these things today, from behind a computer to anonymous people... .

Consider this Springle:  your neighbor's dog gets hit by a car.  It's owner goes and picks it up out of the street and desperately needs a ride to the vet clinic to get the dog's broken leg mended and pain dealt with.  What is your neighbor feeling?

[ciel]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=210574.0

DSM 5 Empathy Assessment Levels

Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing. Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.

Empathy seems to be easily confused with sympathy or compassion, but the DSM definition is quite technical and clear: it is the ability to identify and understand other people's emotions and motivation, even when you do not agree with them.  

It's not about feeling sad for a person suffering a loss, but about the ability to see that they are sad and understand why that might be the case.  Obviously you can't express sympathy, that you are sorry for their loss, or feel compassion for them, unless you first identify what they are feeling.  Same goes for anger.

In a recent counselling session with my (soon to be ex) uBPDh, I finally understood that he has little or no empathy in the technical sense.  He just cannot understand that his words and actions all these years were causing me tremendous distress and pain---he didn't see it, even when I made it explicit, even when the effects of my anxiety and depression were right before his eyes!  He didn't see it!  

For example, about seven months after the birth of our child, and after months of daily manipulations and abuse causing me tremendous suffering, I had reached a point of desperation.  I got the number of a psychologist, went to my husband and told him that I needed help and was going to make an appointment.  His response?  He got angry, listed one by one all the bills he pays, then said, I'm not paying your f'n psychologist.  I said I wasn't asking him to pay, I'll pay, no problem, I'm just letting him know.  He then went into a rage: "your problem is that you're selfish, irresponsible, stupid, lazy etc... .you just need to grow the f up and accept that this is your life."  And so on.  My daughter was in my arms.  I never made that appointment.

Now when I bring this up, he still is bewildered.  He had no idea I was suffering or that his words were hurtful.  No idea!  He didn't know I was depressed and in despair!  He still thinks of that period as part of the "good times" in our relationship!  

No ability to identify my emotions, then or now, or to understand the motivation behind my decision to end this.  No empathy.

[susanleona]

In my experience most normal people register on the DSM scale between 0-1, but my BPDex matched the definition for DSM 3 in every way.  Most of us can sense other people's emotions and may or may not choose to show sympathy depending on how close we are to them.  But a BPD simply cannot get other people's painful responses to anything they say to them, so this implies they cannot learn empathy either.  The inability to accept a different opinion is true as well, and this leads to many arguments and breaks with others as compromise will not take place.

[fromheeltoheal]

He just cannot understand that his words and actions all these years were causing me tremendous distress and pain---he didn't see it, even when I made it explicit, even when the effects of my anxiety and depression were right before his eyes!  He didn't see it! 

He had no idea I was suffering or that his words were hurtful.  No idea!  He didn't know I was depressed and in despair! 

No ability to identify my emotions, then or now, or to understand the motivation behind my decision to end this.  No empathy.

Yes.  My ex was the same way.  Borderlines are painted as malicious, mean, cruel, evil, whatever choice terms come up here on the Leaving board, but it's not that at all, other than someone who's in constant pain is going to lash out at people now and then, but the core of it is that borderlines simply aren't capable of connecting with how other people feel.  That's strange to us, hard to get your head around, and that's what mental illness looks like.  Then again, 'mental illness' is a term that suggests rubber rooms and Thorazine, but the lack of ability to connect is just a result of arrested development, a failure to develop mental and emotional capability beyond a certain point, creepy when you think about it, and definitely threw me off guard, for one.

But my ex sure tried hard; I'd catch her intensely watching me, looking at my face, searching for hidden emotions or thoughts exposed by my subtle facial expressions, or so she thought.  Of course the intensity was fueled by a complete lack of trust, she had convinced herself that I was going to leave, to abandon her, that ever-present overriding focus, and that I was covering it up, so she was digging hard.  She had to rely on analysis and scrutiny of my facial expressions, and her own misinterpretations, because she was incapable of the emotional connection that would have allayed her fears.  Sad that.  One of her favorite phrases was "people are ugly", part projection and part a belief that people are always up to something, have hidden agendas, and are lying, and an ability to connect would have solved all of that, but it was not to be.

[Springle]

Consider this Springle:  your neighbor's dog gets hit by a car.  It's owner goes and picks it up out of the street and desperately needs a ride to the vet clinic to get the dog's broken leg mended and pain dealt with.  What is your neighbor feeling?

Wow this thread really expanded since I was last about to get online.

I would say my neighbour feels upset, sad, angry, distressed, worried, scared and panicked.

Is... .is that right? :S, see i just don't know if I can trust my instinct in this sort of thing anymore.

[Blimblam]

He just cannot understand that his words and actions all these years were causing me tremendous distress and pain---he didn't see it, even when I made it explicit, even when the effects of my anxiety and depression were right before his eyes!  He didn't see it! 

He had no idea I was suffering or that his words were hurtful.  No idea!  He didn't know I was depressed and in despair! 

No ability to identify my emotions, then or now, or to understand the motivation behind my decision to end this.  No empathy.

Yes.  My ex was the same way.  Borderlines are painted as malicious, mean, cruel, evil, whatever choice terms come up here on the Leaving board, but it's not that at all, other than someone who's in constant pain is going to lash out at people now and then, but the core of it is that borderlines simply aren't capable of connecting with how other people feel.  That's strange to us, hard to get your head around, and that's what mental illness looks like.  Then again, 'mental illness' is a term that suggests rubber rooms and Thorazine, but the lack of ability to connect is just a result of arrested development, a failure to develop mental and emotional capability beyond a certain point, creepy when you think about it, and definitely threw me off guard, for one.

But my ex sure tried hard; I'd catch her intensely watching me, looking at my face, searching for hidden emotions or thoughts exposed by my subtle facial expressions, or so she thought.  Of course the intensity was fueled by a complete lack of trust, she had convinced herself that I was going to leave, to abandon her, that ever-present overriding focus, and that I was covering it up, so she was digging hard.  She had to rely on analysis and scrutiny of my facial expressions, and her own misinterpretations, because she was incapable of the emotional connection that would have allayed her fears.  Sad that.  One of her favorite phrases was "people are ugly", part projection and part a belief that people are always up to something, have hidden agendas, and are lying, and an ability to connect would have solved all of that, but it was not to be.

Wow this post is going to really have me thinking back over things.

[fromheeltoheal]

Is... .is that right? :S, see i just don't know if I can trust my instinct in this sort of thing anymore.

Which suggests at one time you could Springle.  When we are enmeshed with a mental illness, with all its tricks, we can begin to doubt ourselves, sometimes entirely.  Part of healing is taking our power back, and with that comes relearning to trust our instincts.  Start tomorrow; see if you can connect with the feelings of people you interact with.  If you could once you will again, and it won't take long, with practice, to get back where you were, and once you notice the ability returning your confidence in it will come with it.  Take care of you!

[ciel]

Borderlines are painted as malicious, mean, cruel, evil, whatever choice terms come up here on the Leaving board, but it's not that at all, other than someone who's in constant pain is going to lash out at people now and then, but the core of it is that borderlines simply aren't capable of connecting with how other people feel.  That's strange to us, hard to get your head around, and that's what mental illness looks like. 

But my ex sure tried hard; I'd catch her intensely watching me, looking at my face, searching for hidden emotions or thoughts exposed by my subtle facial expressions, or so she thought.  Of course the intensity was fueled by a complete lack of trust, she had convinced herself that I was going to leave, to abandon her, that ever-present overriding focus, and that I was covering it up, so she was digging hard.  She had to rely on analysis and scrutiny of my facial expressions, and her own misinterpretations, because she was incapable of the emotional connection that would have allayed her fears.  Sad that.  One of her favorite phrases was "people are ugly", part projection and part a belief that people are always up to something, have hidden agendas, and are lying, and an ability to connect would have solved all of that, but it was not to be.

Yes... .yes.  My stb ex did this, too: was constantly focused on signs of rejection, and found them everywhere.  He was unable to connect to me, and so of course I was unable to give him the reassurance he desperately sought.  It's sad.

You've helped me to have greater empathy and compassion for my stb ex.  It doesn't change my decision to leave, but it helps.  Empathy can keep up from just splitting them like they do to us... .understanding their core shame and profound alienation from being unable to connect, yet desperate to do so. 

[tinkerbellsmom]

My BPD dd does not have empathy.  The biggest difference is that she seems to believe that when she is not around, I don't exist, my life just is frozen in time somehow. She also thinks that my feelings are tools for her to use to get me to do what she wants.  She can criticize me harshly for something one min. and then turn around and do the exact same thing herself  but somehow for her it's different. 

[fromheeltoheal]

You've helped me to have greater empathy and compassion for my stb ex.  It doesn't change my decision to leave, but it helps.  Empathy can keep up from just splitting them like they do to us... .understanding their core shame and profound alienation from being unable to connect, yet desperate to do so.

Yes.  And the other piece for me is that I was doing everything right, in that I was emotionally available, trying to make the relationship work, making her needs a priority; my heart was in the right place, and it didn't work not because she's a bad person, she's a sick one.  Then again lots of relationships don't work out, for lots of reasons, but at least I know I went into that one the right way, and will do it again the same way, only this time be much more aware and present to see what I'm getting back.

[fromheeltoheal]

The biggest difference is that she seems to believe that when she is not around, I don't exist, my life just is frozen in time somehow.

That's because a symptom of BPD is a lack of object constancy, meaning out of sight out of mind, literally for a borderline.  Mine once asked me to leave a dirty t-shirt with her, so she could use my 'smell' to connect me to her.  You could say it was romantic, but in her case she knew people ceased to exist for her when they weren't with her physically, and she was trying to do something about it, which I give her credit for.

She also thinks that my feelings are tools for her to use to get me to do what she wants.

Yes.  BPD is all about need fulfillment, getting needs met, by using another person, and the pain they're in justifies it to them.

[Blimblam]

I've been remembering and a entire series of moments that my ex would begin to dysregulate would come to mind. Basically anytime my experience was beyond the limits of her empathy/mirroring. What it was she connected to is how she could relate to the interaction and she projected her knight in shining armor fantasy world she lives in. At the same time I could connect to this fantasy as it exists within myself and I projected how I related to these parts of myself which has a lot more depth and complexity. I projected how I related to these parts of myself onto her and she projected those parts she could relate to onto me.

She has the 6 pack if crayons and I have the 107 pack.