This just doesn't makes any sense - 5

[FallenOne]

I'm not asking this question in regards to my own situation, so please no personal advice. I want to see what others have experienced and I want to hear opinions from people who know a lot about BPD and the relationships.


Both sides are guilty of doing the dumping... We leave the BPD and the BPD leaves us... From what I have come to understand is that we leave the BPD because we become too frustrated with their behavior and reach a point of having had enough and we leave... They leave us because they are afraid we will leave them (so they want to do it first) or because we are "painted black" because of a mistake, shortcoming, or an expectation we didn't live up to... Or possibly many other reasons. Is this true? Is this how it usually always works?

Now where does this come into play during or after a breakup?

When it comes to no-contact, who is more likely to contact who?

If the BPD breaks up with the non, how likely is it for them to contact the non? How hard is it for the BPD to stay in no contact? Even if they are the ones who initiated it, do they break their own no-contact rules typically? Will they only contact their ex non again if the replacement doesn't work out?

Does the BPD only break up with the non when they have a replacement lined up? Is there ever a case where the BPD breaks up with the non, without having a replacement, just to remain single? Can they remain single?

If the non breaks up with the BPD, and initiates no contact, how likely is it that the BPD will try to contact the non? And just the same, how likely is it that the non will contact the BPD if the non was the one to do the breaking up?

Is the BPD more addicted to the non or is the non the one who is addicted to the BPD?

If the non is addicted to the way the BPD made them feel then in that same regard isn't the BPD also addicted to how we made them feel?

Overall, who has the harder time staying in no-contact?

Prior:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=304431.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=305602.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=305603.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=304770.0

[ACObound]

The only thing I can come up with is that I was around my ex for so long that I just got habitually used to her traits and characteristics that some of them may have worn off on me too?

I think that its.  When I reflect back(I have been with uBPDw for 36 years) i see myself "joining in" when she painted people black and pushed people away just like she did and does.  I suspect thinking that would make her happy or win her over.   I hurt people in this way and has effected who I am.  But  then I have been dealing and enabling with this for so long I am not really sure I can remember what I was like.  I am struggling with shaking all this off.

[Ragnar1982]

It's gone both ways for me. I've traditionally been the one who can't stay NC and usually apologize, say I'll wait longer and try harder. The most difficult thing in our relationship that helps me stay NC now is reminding myself of that. It was a period of about two months where we talked every day like nothing was wrong, but she was stringing me along the whole time while back with her ex. Days quickly turned into weeks and months through a string of broken dates, obligations, etc. After we reconciled, and I found out she was with him again, and then a third time where I think she was having a full blown affair with me. As much as I love her, I remind myself of these things even though I broke up with her last, but she left me hanging with a very curious text message. I will not contact her, but if history proves right, I don't think this is the last I ever hear from her. I think she thinks right now that she has me in NC. Who knows? It's crazy.

[once removed]

SURVEY | Romantic relationship site surveys

these should probably cover it  

what do you see in the numbers, Matt S?

[joeramabeme]

The only thing I can come up with is that I was around my ex for so long that I just got habitually used to her traits and characteristics that some of them may have worn off on me too?

For myself, I think there are 2 parts to this. 

First, some BPD traits, taken apart from being part of the disorder, are shared by many people; ordered and disordered and are not necessarily unhealthy.  Take for example, mirroring; imitation is a form of flattery, it can actually be very constructive.  For example, an aspiring musician that imitates a performer that they admire.  Point being, that the traits of BPD are not always in themselves unhealthy,  but within the context of the disorder are incorporated into a larger pattern of unhealthy pathology.

Second, other people do impact us; both positively and negatively.  I have experienced hanging around with people that are overly critical and negative and after some time found myself doing the same.  With my ex, I was always up against a black and white model of thinking.  Over time, my decisions and thinking became more black & white. 

I forgot who said it but there is a famous quote; "show me a man's friends, and I will tell you who that man is".(or something like that).  Those we spend time with do have an impact on us and our way of seeing the world. 

You are fortunate, you can see these traits in yourself, and this shows a level of healthy self-reflection that ensures you will continue to grow into a better self.  Consider the possibility that you are not all bad, not all at fault and instead, give yourself some credit for being a good person with a healthy sense of insight that is growing into someone that is going to make better decisions.

[Dutched]

I agree with Pretty Woman
   There is nothing you could have done differently to make this work

Matt S  you say
‘I overreacted to her overreactions’ and ‘my lack of knowledge of BPD is the cause’
And ‘maybe I deserve to be in the situation I’m in now’ …   You deserve…? Really…?
 
I knew about BPD a couple of yrs. before the end. Learned the nature of the disorder, learned to use techniques Even listened and listened to Zig Zigglar about ‘courtship after marriage, romance can last a lifetime’, really inspirational. 

So did it help? Well the outbursts minimized, I knew how not to get involved in that Mt. St. Helens eruptionS.
Re reading my diaries, I read again that for almost a decade already, I tried to concentrate on the positive in exw because of my love, kids, vow I once made and to grow old together.

Start reading the stories on the staying section on how to coop, how to live, how to avoid, how to, how to…
What does it say? Do not engage, change your behaviour, change your reactions, try to understand, etc.
Read those who are in it for decades, as I was, with even 'High Functioning' PBD’s.

Basically I say try to change you personality, your character, better be a different person…
Being constantly alert (you must become your alteryou… ):
* for the way you look at her => WHY do you look like that at me!
* the way you walk, dress, eat => can you … like other people do?
* giving in to an argument => see, you are so weak
* holding on to your argument => you’re so dominant and selfish
* plain forgetting something = > see! You are not trustworthy !

Can one deny him/her self? What does it with one on the long term?
How fulfilling can such a r/s be, merely one sided as I experienced?

This old man,  once gave a younger lad on this board the following to over think.

You experienced the most unbelievable, are in deep pain, drag yourself forward day by day, etc.
You are young, there is no life long ‘bond’ or ties due to kids, you have still a lifetime ahead of you.
The most, really most important of all is that you learned to know yourself beyond imagination!
That very painful experience (maybe a gift?) will help you to find a partner with whom you can grow old, with whom the romance really lasts a lifetime, in a r/s with mutual respect, love and being a team.

[FSTL]

I can't go NC with my uBPDx, but do try for LC.

Once in a while my curiosity gets the better of me and we have discuss how her issues are going. She once dumped me because of how depressed I was, how negative I was, how I was "all over the place".

She has been in therapy for months (I helped her get help), but I had a coffee with her the other day and she told me how depressed she was the other day, how empty she felt inside, how she could never see anything through, etc.

She hasn't changed a bit, other than being a little more self aware thanks to therapy (ie the edges are a tiny bit less sharp).  She was incredibly judgmental towards me and hated what she saw in me, yet that's exactly how she was and still is.

I know there is absolutely nothing I could have done to have kept her as she is so broken she can't be fixed (save for years of work by her, not me).

Matt - please don't beat yourself up... .this isn't about you.

[Skip]

This is a good conversation.

Should we challenge the concept of "blame". It appears 12 times in this thread and in many posts on Detaching.

I am sensitive from my ex blaming me so much, and me blaming myself so much. I think mental health professionals just don't believe it will do you any good to say "it was all her fault" etc.

I agree that this is true for many of us. A lot of us carry this sensitivity forward into future relationships and it does not play out well in the next relationship.

... .other people do impact us; both positively and negatively.  I have experienced hanging around with people that are overly critical and negative and after some time found myself doing the same.  

NO NO NO! Fundamentally it is a question of them not you. There is a huge gaping hole in the center of their souls.

What if, fundamentally, it isn't "about them"?  

Fundamentally, is it really about our ex (and not us)?  Is it about blame? Who was right/who was wrong? Who was healthy/who was not?

Why are so many of us consumed and often hypersensitive about blame? It sometimes goes beyond "our ex blamed us" and extends to "our therapist blamed us", a member here blamed us... .

What if, fundamentally, it isn't "about them"?  

When I say this, do you immediately feel that I'm saying it is your fault (I'm addressing this to anyone reading)? Why? If a golf pro said, your backswing is off, lets work on that.  Would your immediate reaction be... .it's not my fault that I have a bad golf swing?  And would that attitude help you become a better golfer?

Is blame at all useful, determining who was at fault, at all useful now that we are out of the relationship?

What else could it (fundamentally) be?

Many of use admit to having codependent traits? Many of us admit that we should have left the relationship when the handwriting was on the wall. Many of us admit to high number of recycles. Many of us admit to being locked in drama triangles and cycles of conflict over, litigating the same issues over and over.

What is the fundamental thread in all of this and the blaming? What differentiates the guy (or gal) that got involved, saw bad behavior and walked away rather than participate in endless up and down cycles, drama, devaluation, all the way to eventual abandonment?

I would suggest that psychologists would pin most of this on us having poor sense of self - or in more technical terms - poor differentiation. In less technical terms, fragile self esteem.

How did that play out in the relationship and now in the breakup?

In the relationship, we gained a huge lift when someone told use how valuable we were. A person with BPD over-expresses their emotions - they over-expressed the idealization that normally forms early in a relationship - and we hung our sense of ourself on it. This person gets me!

When that person (partner with BPD traits) had criticisms (equally over-expressed), our sense of self tanked and we tried very hard to get them to reestablish the lavish praise they laid on us before. This lead to a lot if drama, and cyclical arguments, and even recycles.

Now that the relationship is over, and we lived through the inverse of the idealization - devaluation, the over-expression of disappointment by the pwBPD traits - are we are still struggling with our lost self-esteem?

What is the cure for this bad "golf swing?"

Is it all about clearing up in our mind who was right and who was wrong in the relationship? Who was healthy and who was not? Which members here are our friends? Which members are just here to make us feel bad? Is reconciling of this going to help us - re-litigating the arguments of the relationship?

Or is it working on understanding our own sense of self worth and if we have some false conceptions/bad habits on how we value ourselves?

Test case. If a member pops into this thread and says, hey MattS, you disappoint me and you have bad character, how would you feel? My guess is, you'd dismiss it - what does that person know about me. But when you ex-girlfriend said it, something different happened - you believed that if she said it, it was true. You tried to convince her not to see you this way, because if she did, you feared it was probably true. You are still struggling with it, even knowing she is one of the more severe "BPD" member partners on the site. If she called you and said, "hey MattS, I've realized that you are really a good guy and anything that upset me in the relationship was just my distorted thinking", most likely you could accept all of this much easier. Most everyone here could.

Is it about her BPD traits? Is it about your self-esteem?

[Duped 1]

I would say it's a lot more about being with someone that's mentally ill than anything else. Did we play a part? Sure but it's pretty minor compared to the BPD in most situations.

[Skip]

Are you sure?

I started trying to understand how I become so dependent and pathetic with a person who treated me so horrible.

What was it that you were so dependent on?

I was the greatest man in the history of the world and what she had been waiting for her entire life. She smothered me with love and compliments, and texted and called so much it was hard to do anything but focus on her.

We this it - your self esteem - feeling like the greatest man in the history of the world?

[Duped 1]

Yes I'm sure. I've never experienced anything like this in any other rs. So yes I'm certain it had a LOT more to do with being with a mentally ill petson than anything else.

[Skip]

I know you spent some time in AA... .

  ... .was the fundamental problem alcohol or your reaction to it (addictive personality)?

Are there any parallels here?

    ... .was the fundamental problem a BPD woman or your reaction to her (fragile self esteem, not durable - poor "differentiation"?

I'm not asking this in a blaming context - rather its about trying to understand what is fundamentally affecting our "golf game" and what to change in "golf swing" so that we can be a better "golfer".

[FallenOne]

I've been posting here for over a month now, and have received some truly great advice and information from the many people on these boards. I couldn't be more grateful for that... Some of you have truly given me a lot of insight into this disorder as well as my own issues.

But it still truly baffles me how these people (with BPD) can do these things?

What baffles me is how a girl I was with for 4 years, who told me they loved me countless times, who stood by me and was supportive through my own ups and downs, who I was fully supportive of through her own ups and downs, who wanted to get married and have a child someday, can just leave me over something so silly and so suddenly?

Here I am, a guy who she had known for years. I'm doing well for myself, I'm attractive, I have a lot of good qualities, good sense of humor, we got along great, had the same beliefs, views, activities, and opinions...

All of the things we went through together... So many ups and downs... Great times, and awful times... We managed to endure and survive all of that... In the end I'm left over an argument over something that could have easily been worked out and paled in comparison to other things that happened in the relationship.

She leaves me, and starts dating a female who has no job and isn't even attractive... What does she see in this girl?

How is it worth it, to throw away 4 years together, all of those ups and downs that we endured, and everything else that we put time, energy and resources into, and leave for some female who she has almost nothing in common with who doesn't even have any great qualities?

This completely defies any reason that my mind can comprehend... .

No talking about it, no resolution, just decides over night that I'm "not the one" after 4 years and everything we had been through?

And even files a PFA against me, for practically nothing other than a few text messages pointing out some truth?

This is someone that I did homework with, helped her with homework, lived together with, sat in the hospital with her for hours, visited her in the hospital, took her on road trips to see her family, took care of her while she was sick, bought things for her, listened to her, gave her advice, helped her get her drivers license, let her use my car, let her use my apartment, was a step dad to her son, helped him with things, helped her move... .and the list goes on and on... .

And none of that mattered? In the end, all that mattered was that I left her in the hospital at one point and defended myself?

She seriously couldn't look past a few mistakes and thought that it was worth it to just throw all of this away over a silly argument and a few past mistakes?

It's just unbelievable... .

[Duped 1]

I'm not saying I was perfect in any way skip but I did try different reactions to her abuse and it wouldn't have mattered in the end. There is a reason she is single and wants more than anything to be married. She is a beautiful girl who treats her partners like s##t and thinks it's ok. It's her normal and she admitted never having a good rs.

[vanx]

Not trying to take over your thread, Matt, but I think it is really interesting, and the way it's developed has articulated a lot of interesting points.

What if, fundamentally, it isn't "about them"?  

When I say this, do you immediately feel that I'm saying it is your fault (I'm addressing this to anyone reading)?

It did, because I was feeling way wounded and sensitive. I'm starting to find the part of myself again that trusts people are trying to help.

I came across a phrase in a meditation book a while back, ":)rive All Blames Into One": "It is quite counterintuitive, quite upside down. What it is saying is: whatever happens, don't ever blame anyone or anything else, always blame only yourself. Eat the blame and it will make you strong."

And eating is is different from prolonged rumination. It's letting go (still practicing to get better).

I cared what she thought about me. I cared/still care about her. I think we all wanted to understand what was going on and get back to getting along. She saw what I loved about myself, and then what I was most ashamed of. Drive all blames into one.

"Or is it working on understanding our own sense of self worth and if we have some false conceptions/bad habits on how we value ourselves?"

Oh yeah. And we can fix this. This is a chance to fix this and never go back to anything less. It sure burns for a while though. The flip from from feeling close to distant hurts like hell.

Matt, you've been through a lot, man. You're not alone working through detachment. Remember that your feelings are worthy. If you did do anything wrong, can you forgive yourself? We deserve the love and forgiveness that we wanted to give to our partner. You deserve this, man.

"I agree that this is true for many of us. A lot of us carry this sensitivity forward into future relationships and it does not play out well in the next relationship."

True. Can't do this again. If we learn what we need to learn, we can stop unnecessary suffering.

Really helpful thread. Thanks to everyone for putting it out there

[once removed]

but I did try different reactions to her abuse

did you try leaving? i ask because i tried different reactions too (i imagine most of us did). for me, that was a very addictive dynamic. what about you?

[Duped 1]

did you try leaving? i ask because i tried different reactions too (i imagine most of us did). for me, that was a very addictive dynamic. what about you?

No but I wish I would have. I talked about it a couple of times and when she became very upset I was there for her, but not for me. My biggest mistake was not taking the red flags seriously and getting out early .

[FallenOne]

I wasn't in a good state of mind when I made this thread. I was blaming myself for the relationship failing... Now that I think about it, everything that I did to her, she also did to me. And she did it first!

Everything was one-sided... Let me think of as many examples as I can think of...


When she broke up with me, the assumption is that she filed a PFA against me because I pointed out (through text message) some of the truths about her behavior to my replacement and one of her friends... The fact of the matter is that she had been telling her friends and family for a while that I was abusive, ruined her life, screamed at her, I was a narcissist, etc... See how it's okay for her (in her mind) to say that stuff about me to those people, but as soon as I do the same thing to her, she takes legal action against me? See what she did there?

In her mind, I'm a "bad guy" for calling the police on her because she sent my replacement to my house to intimidate me. And apparently that's okay, but it's not okay for me to defend myself by calling the police on someone who came to my front door to intimidate me?

Throughout the relationship, it was "okay" for her to speak to her ex's, talk to other guys on social media and do whatever she pleased... But if I spoke to other women on social media, it must have meant I was cheating... If I did any of these things I got scolded for it and it started arguments... But I had to be "okay" with her doing it.

She did whatever she pleased, and if I ever had a problem with it, approached her about it, or told her I didn't like it... I was once again the bad guy! It's like she expected me to just be okay with everything that she did...

I committed a cardinal sin by breaking up with her in the hospital... But it was okay for her to ignore me when I was in the hospital (following an argument) where I called her and asked her to visit me, and she just hung up and said "don't try to control my life"... .

I could literally go on forever and ever with examples of this one-sided hypocrisy that I dealt with for 4 years...

It was okay for her to do something to me, or say something to me, or ignore me, or leave me... .But OHHHH BOY! If I did it, I was an awful, terrible, abusive, misunderstanding person who deserved to be punished... .

See how that works?

[Skip]

My biggest mistake was not taking the red flags seriously and getting out early .

Did you often find yourself in circular fights regarding your value that you couldn't let go of?

Did you often find yourself trying to rekindle the relationship and her idealized image after she devalued you and broke it off?

[Skip]

  Duped 1

My biggest mistake was not taking the red flags seriously and getting out early .

Did you often find yourself in circular fights regarding your value that you couldn't let go of?

Did you often find yourself trying to rekindle the relationship and her idealized image after she devalued you and broke it off?

  FallenOne

See how it's okay for her (in her mind) to say that stuff about me to those people... .

In her mind, I'm a "bad guy" for.

But if I spoke to other women on social media, it must have meant I was cheating... .If I did any of these things I got scolded for it and it started arguments...

I was once again the bad guy!  But OHHHH BOY! If I did it, I was an awful, terrible, abusive, misunderstanding person who deserved to be punished... .

See how that works?

Are these examples of her over-devaluing you and it hitting close to home and your need to change her thinking to feel good about yourself?

Did you yourself arguing at length and repeatedly over time in an attempt to get her to change her image of you - rather than just saying, "she's just distorted and impulsive state, when she returns to baseline she'll think more balanced", or "she's conflicted right now, and I can't fix it, and that's ok, it's better if she works it out herself (self-sooth)".

That is one of the most frustrating things right now... That I still love this person and they cut me out of their lives overnight and got an RO and I have no explanation, no reasons, no closure, no nothing... And I'm not even able to make any legal contact to try and resolve this

Do you hope, even now, to reconnect with her with a goal to square up your image in her minds eye, so you can feel better about yourself?

[once removed]

And she did it first!

reread that a few times  

Everything was one-sided... Let me think of as many examples as I can think of...

i think anyone here will give you that she didnt fight fair. i must have spent months having fights with mine in my head. it can be productive and have its place. it helps to know what we are doing when we are doing it - how we cope. and to remember the fighting is no more. we can let go of who is right or wrong and focus on whats within our power. its a big load off.

[Tosquinha]

I feel ya Matt.  Same here, except she'd always shove me away when there was some turmoil.  If she was in the hospital for a procedure, she didn't want me there.  If she was sad, I was not to comfort her.  For what it's worth, she left me for another female too, but I'm a lesbian as is she so go figure.  She refered to us as a power couple and then I guess found an employee who thought the world of her and so, distracted she is.  She left me sitting at home alone on Thanksgiving to go to her employees house. 

I'm started to see that's just how it is.  They keep us around as long as we think such great things of them but just as soon as they feel any disappointment, instead of working through it, they just go find some other person who thinks they are great.

I'm off this rollercoaster though.  i want to love someone and think they are great, but I want to be loved in return and not have someone run off when something difficult happens.  She broke up our family twice now and I've moved.  I've changed my number, she doesn't know where I live (and didn't even bother to ask when I moved).  I don't want any kind of contact with her.

My T told me recently that she isn't likely grieving the end of this relationship because she's distracted by another.  I don't know which is worse... .sitting here with the thoughts and questions and pain, or wishing I could just move on too. 

[Gear Jammer]

The biggest mistake is getting involved with a BPD, ya as much as you hate to kick somebody to the curb you have too.

As for fighting the BPD that was in my life it didn't matter if I fought back or not she actually thrived on fighting. When our relationship was going too smoothly she picked a fight I really don't remember on what it was because it happened frequently. When we were just friends she was un happy with her new relationship she would pick fights with me.

When she fought with the staff she worked with she would get angry and walk away they were plain anger fights. Fights with me involved emotions on both sides she wouldn't back off she would vent her emotions. If she didn't get a reaction from me it would hurt her even more. Its what I hated about being with her I don't partically enjoy fighting I avoid doing it.

Fighting is all to create drama which the BPD I was with craved she loved drama I told her I hate drama in my life I avoid it like the plague she kept creating it.

I've been away from her over 2 years she's out of my life I hate to say it but good riddance. I've seen/seeing the damage she's doing to the guy she's with now. I didn't let her damage me as much as she's doing to her current man who is nearly on his death bed because of her. Pretty sure he's an NPD its why they are still together feeding off each other.

[FallenOne]

Are these examples of her over-devaluing you and it hitting close to home and your need to change her thinking to feel good about yourself?

Those are examples of how hypocritical she was. It was seemingly justified (from her perspective) to do something, but if I did the same thing, I was this awful person. Why did I get yelled at for things that she was also doing that I seemingly had to accept and be okay with? The best example here would be telling her friends and family lies about me, but I expose the truth about her to someone and I am a threat? Huh?

Did you yourself arguing at length and repeatedly over time in an attempt to get her to change her image of you - rather than just saying, "she's just distorted and impulsive state, when she returns to baseline she'll think more balanced", or "she's conflicted right now, and I can't fix it, and that's ok, it's better if she works it out herself (self-sooth)".

Yes, I found myself in a lot of arguments that didn't seem to go anywhere and just frustrated both of us... But if I let it go for her to sort out herself, I was accused of "sweeping it under the rug" and trying to push it aside.

Do you hope, even now, to reconnect with her with a goal to square up your image in her minds eye, so you can feel better about yourself?

Yes. I just want to know why I'm only seen for the few mistakes that I made rather than the dozens of good things that I did? Why doesn't she see any of that? Why does she only see my shortcomings and mistakes?

[ynwa]

Hey Matt.  

I've seen you going through this and being present with your feelings.  I commend you also on learning what drives your ex to "make no sense".

It's got to be hard and you have handled it well. As well as you can.  In any relationship that ends, there will be many regrets, unanswered questions, and just plain old confusion right?  The end result is a divide that must stay that way, for little or no reason.  

But maybe a take a look at what answers and reason you DO have.  Your mind HAS comprehended it, and your feelings said "NO THANK YOU".

You mention often leaving her in the hospital.  I know that was tough, and I know you feel so much regret.  But something in you perhaps had seen and been through enough?  You needed a breath, and something in you had to leave to get it?

You maybe put yourself first for the right reasons, in a not so good situation?
In the long term, someone with BPD, even with high functioning traits, this is THEIR constant. Small issues and petty moments become the focus, while the actual BIG moments are just ignored. To stay with her, this would more than likely become your constant.

Matt, I wish you were not in this boat.  I and others are in boats right along with you.  

[stimpy]

It's just unbelievable... .

Matt, I get where you're coming from. It is literally unbelievable, and so hard to wrap your head around. The suddenness of the discard, the lack of attempts to resolve (or even identify) whatever the problem was leaves us bewildered and hurt. Like the relationship meant nothing. How can that be?

Which is where researching all we can on the disorder helps to rationalise what doesn't on the face of it make any sense and it helps to depersonalise it.

A couple of comments in your post rang very true with me as well.

we got along great, had the same beliefs, views, activities, and opinions...

Don't forget about mirroring. Without  a proper sense of self, she may have mirrored the better more positive aspects of your personality and character and that might be why it seemed like you'd met someone with so many similarities to you. And this will happen with the next person she meets, and the next... .and the next

Meanwhile all the talk if settling down and having children etc... .may well have begun to trigger her fear of engulfment (also linked to lack of a proper sense of self) and with that very destructive emotion rising in her, one final trigger might have been enough to set her fears into overdrive, and that led to the sudden discard.

And one other comment you made rang true to me as well.

This is someone that I did homework with, helped her with homework, lived together with, sat in the hospital with her for hours, visited her in the hospital, took her on road trips to see her family, took care of her while she was sick, bought things for her, listened to her, gave her advice, helped her get her drivers license, let her use my car, let her use my apartment, was a step dad to her son, helped him with things, helped her move... .and the list goes on and on... .

Did she reciprocate and treat you with equal kindness and generosity? Was it an equal relationship of give and take? I was the same as you, early on in my case she brought out the "white knight" in me (by doing the victim thing), and I felt I had to save this girl, and be better than all the other terrible people she had encountered in her life. So I helped her, bought her stuff, listened to her, etc... etc... .

But really, that was a huge mistake. The relationship was one sided, and if I upset her, wow could she punish - with silent treatment and blaming and shaming, all the usual things. For her, I think it was all a technique, a manipulation, to pull me into her world, and into the FOG, and for a time it worked.

Now though I know that she is a very damaged and damaging person, and she has finally disappeared out of my life after a year of stalking.

But like you, I look back sometimes, in utter disbelief at the discard, and how brutal it was. For me, things were going well (or so I thought), on the Wednesday I took her to my home town (about 200 miles fro where we lived) took her to all my childhood haunts, the schools I went to, the homes I lived in, and the special places that meant a lot to me. It was very personal, very much me emotionally opening up to her. It was an amazing day, and I thought we were set. Two days later, I get a text at midday saying she was thinking of me and hoping I was well. Five hours later I get a text saying I'm dumped and she doesn't want to have any contact with her.

To this day, it still staggers me that someone could do that.

But when I put my rational head on (not the emotional one), I know that this was the push after the pull. This was her feeling engulfed and not being able to stand it, and having to push as hard as she could to get me out of her life as I'd triggered deep emotional pain in her that I doubt even she fully understands herself. Feelings are facts, and her feeling was that of emotional suffocation, that was my fault, and so I am to blame, so I must be dumped.

The disorder wins, and she and I lose. It is so sad. In the months after the discard, I saw her sometimes, and she looked hollowed out, and aged so fast, really sad... .Even now it upsets me, where did the lovely vivacious funny girl I first knew go.

[FallenOne]

The suddenness of the discard, the lack of attempts to resolve (or even identify) whatever the problem was leaves us bewildered and hurt. Like the relationship meant nothing.

Right. The bewildering part is that so many other worse things came up over the 4 years and she never left then, from any of those problems, she worked through them with me... And then something comes along that seems like no big deal, and she leaves...

Why do they never give you any reasons or explanations?

Meanwhile all the talk if settling down and having children etc... .may well have begun to trigger her fear of engulfment (also linked to lack of a proper sense of self) and with that very destructive emotion rising in her, one final trigger might have been enough to set her fears into overdrive, and that led to the sudden discard.

She was the one who first started talking about children and settling down... I never pressured her with this topic. Why would she be engulfed by her own ideas?

[FallenOne]

Did she reciprocate and treat you with equal kindness and generosity? Was it an equal relationship of give and take?

Sometimes. I didn't have any serious needs like she had. Her life seemed to be a mess thus she needed tons of help with a lot of things... I didn't need that kind of help. She usually reciprocated my support with things like sex, or taking me out. When I did have things I needed help with, she helped me as long as she didn't have something she needed done... .which came first.

[stimpy]

Why would she be engulfed by her own ideas?

Because it became real.

[stimpy]

Why do they never give you any reasons or explanations?

From what I've read, for a person with BPD, that person's emotions are much stronger and more intense compared to you and me, and they in effect drive that person. They are overwhelming, but she doesn't understand them. She just knows she must get away from you (to avoid engulfment or to pre-empt abandonment), but the emotion is being driven from unresolved issues from childhood that have left her unable to process and control emotions properly.

Think of a 5 year old child trying to deal with adult emotions and then that 5 year old child trying to explain what she is feeling to you and explain how it is driving her behaviours.

Alternatively, if the pwBPD has narcissistic (NPD) comorbidity, then it could be a knowing manipulation, to pull you back in, as she will know that you will want closure, so it keeps an attachment going, and keeps her in the one up/control position as you chase to get that closure or try to re-engage.

[earlyL]

The disorder wins, and she and I lose. It is so sad. In the months after the discard, I saw her sometimes, and she looked hollowed out, and aged so fast, really sad... .Even now it upsets me, where did the lovely vivacious funny girl I first knew go.

This is where I see the disorder, my exBPD left me for someone else (married) but they are not actually together and all I see right now is someone broken and old looking, it is so incredibly sad. It seems ridiculous for her to put herself in that position but for whatever reason she feels she can't be with me.

[Stripey77]

We're all here with you. I promise you, albeit in varying forms and degrees.

Over a year ago, my amazing and pinch myself amazing boyfriend, the man I thought (and still feel) was my soulmate, just threw me away like a piece of trash over the most minor of disagreements. There wasn't even an argument really.

We were out on a day trip, and on the way up (he was driving) he was in love, loved up, so happy, singing, joking, holding my hand. 4 HOURS later he couldn't even bring himself to look at me or speak to me after I had dared to criticise him. I was dumped via text 3 days later after 3 agonising days of silence.

He has been in, and out, and back in my life countless times since, including 2 bouts of pretending I don't even exist and walking past me in town as if I were invisible, for several months at a time. This time last year I was on the brink of profound depression and almost hoped not to wake up from my sleep.

I spent last night and some of today with him. No I am not detaching brilliantly, but I am in a far far stronger position of understanding and knowing the monster I am dealing with.  I am still in love with him. But I know that everything EVERYTHING he does with regard to me and emotions is guided by this horrible condition. He is to the best of my knowledge, undiagnosed, but he knows something is wrong with him. I am so so sure it is BPD I can almost now predict his movements towards me. After 4 weeks of hard, hard radio silence on my part in an effort to heal, he suddenly reached out and contacted me in the middle of the night last night. I was expecting some kind of move toward me but not something so blatant. He is almost 'text book' if there is such a thing, and there is where I find my comfort, and my answers.

 Slowly, over time, you will start to see that the answer to your questions of 'how could she?' 'why?' 'what happened?' will be replaced with one answer: she is unwell. She has an emotional disorder. She has BPD. I almost now think of it as a  separate entity to either of us; yes, it's within him and your ex, and part of who they are, but it isn't WHO they are in their entirety.  How could she do it? Because she has BPD. How does she not seem to care about what she's done? Because she has BPD. How could she swing from one extreme to the other? Because she has BPD.

To use an analogy that people like to use so often with mental illness, let's imagine for a second that your ex had a broken leg, not a broken brain.  Let's say that the leg is in plaster and she is on crutches. Now let's throw some questions at this scenario... .

Q: But why can't she take part in the race?

A: Because she has a broken leg.

Q: But why can't she drive?

A: Because she has a broken leg.

Q: But how could she refuse to come and walk with me round the park when just yesterday she said she was looking forward to it?

A: Because she has a broken leg, and now she can't.


BPD is hidden, but it's not to those of us on the receiving end who got this close to the people involved.  It is ever present, and liable to show itself at any time. It's obviously not a broken leg, which will undoubtedly heal, but I hope my analogy goes some way to illustrate my point that the answer to your questions is actually ridiculously simple. No matter how much we ruminate, go round and round in circles, replay events in our minds etc. etc. etc... .the answer is the same. They did it because they have BPD.

It really is so sad, for us, and for them.

[FallenOne]

I realize that none of you truly know all of the details about my ex or my relationship, and only know what I have revealed on here in my posts, but I want an opinion based on a few different situations that happened throughout my 4 year relationship.


I feel like my BPDexgf cheated a few different times, but I never caught her in the act or had enough evidence to prove that she did, so I want to explain a few stories and hear what you guys think.


First incident.

Sometime in late 2013, while I was at work one evening, my ex was leaving class and we were texting. She told me she was "going to catch up with an old friend". I asked who and she just said "Courtney"... So, I said okay, and continued about my work duties. This was around 5pm... About two hours later, I text her to see what's up. No response. An hour or two later, once again, no response... I get home from work. I try calling. No answer. She wouldn't answer any texts or phone calls for the rest of the night... Thinking back now, I wish I would have just went to her house after work, but unfortunately, for some unknown reason at the time, I didn't do that... The following morning, around 10:30am while I'm sitting in class I finally got a text from her. I don't even remember exactly what it said, but she told me she was assaulted. When I asked her about this in person, this is how her story went... She told me that this girl turned on her, pinned her to my ex's bed, took her phone away from her and tried to rape her... And apparently she wouldn't let her leave her house... They sat there all night. Finally, in the morning she left... And that's when I received a text... She didn't know the girls last name, didn't know what kind of car she was driving, couldn't find a social media profile for her (even though that's how she initially contacted her) and she was indifferent about filing a police report...

This story ^^ is absolutely ridiculous and makes no sense in my opinion... Yet, I believed this bullsh*t and pushed it aside to save the relationship... Initially I didn't believe it, but she started crying and said "this happened to me!" and bawled her eyes out, so I let it go...

Second Incident

In mid September of 2016 (not that long ago) she broke up with me, out of nowhere, and went silent... I didn't argue with her this time about it and just let her go... Three weeks later, I put a written letter in her mailbox to clear up some things, and as soon as she got it, she contacted me, and we started talking again... She was with the girl she started seeing after she got out of the hospital in March (after our big breakup)... The girl she's currently with right now... Anyway, soon after we started talking again, I noticed there was a guy posting on and liking her statuses on facebook... I had never seen him before... So, I asked her about him, and she said he was an old friend from high school who she started talking to again, and that I had nothing to worry about... I didn't let it go at this though... I spoke to one of our mutual friends on facebook (who was also friends with this guy) and asked him about this guy... Just so happens that the this guy had a conversation with our mutual friend recently and was talking about how he was hanging out with my ex and was bragging about how "he smashed that last weekend"... .This would have been less than a week after she left me in mid September, and she was already dating this girl at the same time... I printed out the conversation that our mutual friend sent me, and approached her with it... At first I asked her if there was anything she wanted to tell me about and at first she just said "don't f*ck with me right now, Matt... " and then said "don't push my buttons, I don't want to think about any of that... " (whatever that means?) So I told her about the messages that our mutual friend sent me and how the guy she was talking to was bragging about how he "smashed that last weekend"... She said "what the eff?" "What are you talking about?" So I showed her the messages. She immediately started getting angry, and crying at the same time, and turned it around to be the victim... She said he was lying... She said she only talked to him for a few days and they only hung out a few times... She denied sleeping with him and said he was lying and then she said "Even if I had slept with him, we were broken up at the time, so it wouldn't matter." She was extremely upset about this situation, and actually came to my place, picked me up, and drove us somewhere to sit and talk about it (she never did this before). But all she did was deny the whole thing and say this guy was lying... When I talked to him on facebook though, he said they had sex...


These were the two major incidents... There are a few others that happened as well that I will explain now.


One time, I left work early and came home (this is when we were living together) and she was sitting at the kitchen table with some guy I had never seen before having a drink... When I went inside, I told her we needed to talk, and the guy immediately got up and left. She never told me she was inviting someone over, and I had no idea who he even was. I never saw him again after that.


One of her male friends who was a drug addict and recently got out of jail, was in the hospital one time... She went to visit him... Later sometime after he got out of the hospital, she was talking to him online and apparently he was really high and threatened to rape her (according to her)... I told her that she needed to block him out and stop talking to him, but she didn't... She kept talking to him... A few weeks later, when I was at her place, this same guy showed up and she let him in to hang out... After he left, we had an argument and I forbid her from speaking to him anymore, because he seemed a little dangerous and was an ex convict... She gave me the same BS about "trying to control her life and tell her what to do"... Besides, why the hell would someone want to hang out with someone who threatened to rape them? When I asked her this question her answer was that "he was just messed up on drugs at the time and didn't know any better"... Not long after this, I never saw the guy around again.


Each time we had a breakup, whether it was a few days or a few months, every single time she came back, there was a host of new people on her facebook friends list who I had never seen before... This never happened while we were together. Only during breakups...

A few times she admitted to sleeping with some people while we were broken up, and was pretty honest about it... So, if she did sleep with others, why was she honest about some of them but not all of them?

What do you all think about the stories above? What do you make them out to be?

[SoMadSoSad]

Yes. I just want to know why I'm only seen for the few mistakes that I made rather than the dozens of good things that I did? Why doesn't she see any of that? Why does she only see my shortcomings and mistakes?

Because it is a coping mechanism. Now what will you do with that answer.

[infjEpic]

This story ^^ is absolutely ridiculous and makes no sense in my opinion... Yet, I believed this bullsh*t and pushed it aside to save the relationship... Initially I didn't believe it, but she started crying and said "this happened to me!" and bawled her eyes out, so I let it go...

Second Incident

In mid September of 2016 (not that long ago) she broke up with me, out of nowhere, and went silent... I didn't argue with her this time about it and just let her go... Three weeks later, I put a written letter in her mailbox to clear up some things, and as soon as she got it, she contacted me, and we started talking again... She was with the girl she started seeing after she got out of the hospital in March (after our big breakup)... The girl she's currently with right now... Anyway, soon after we started talking again, I noticed there was a guy posting on and liking her statuses on facebook... I had never seen him before... So, I asked her about him, and she said he was an old friend from high school who she started talking to again, and that I had nothing to worry about... I didn't let it go at this though... I spoke to one of our mutual friends on facebook (who was also friends with this guy) and asked him about this guy... Just so happens that the this guy had a conversation with our mutual friend recently and was talking about how he was hanging out with my ex and was bragging about how "he smashed that last weekend"... .This would have been less than a week after she left me in mid September, and she was already dating this girl at the same time... I printed out the conversation that our mutual friend sent me, and approached her with it... At first I asked her if there was anything she wanted to tell me about and at first she just said "don't f*ck with me right now, Matt... " and then said "don't push my buttons, I don't want to think about any of that... " (whatever that means?) So I told her about the messages that our mutual friend sent me and how the guy she was talking to was bragging about how he "smashed that last weekend"... She said "what the eff?" "What are you talking about?" So I showed her the messages. She immediately started getting angry, and crying at the same time, and turned it around to be the victim... She said he was lying... She said she only talked to him for a few days and they only hung out a few times... She denied sleeping with him and said he was lying and then she said "Even if I had slept with him, we were broken up at the time, so it wouldn't matter." She was extremely upset about this situation, and actually came to my place, picked me up, and drove us somewhere to sit and talk about it (she never did this before). But all she did was deny the whole thing and say this guy was lying... When I talked to him on facebook though, he said they had sex...

The first incident sounds more like a test of you, than cheating.
It's hard to say really.

The second incident, blatant lying imo... .I mean, the exact phrases she is using here are phrases which I can recall being told to me and I've seen others recount hundreds of times.


She sounds nasty... .I don't keep nasty people in my life.

[FallenOne]

She sounds nasty... .I don't keep nasty people in my life.

Honestly, when we were together, a lot of the time she was pretty balanced out... You want to know when things started getting really crazy? After I broke up with her in the hospital...

Ever since then, she's been on some kind of self-destructive sex and lying binge... .I wonder why that is?

[jonmnemonic]

Matt, at some point you'll need to stop trying to figure her out.  You don't need to understand everything in order to have closure.  You will never know the truth or motives about everything she did.  Accepting that she is a toxic individual and working through the reasons why you are attracted to someone like her would be most helpful to you long term.

Does it matter if she cheated every time you suspect she did?  You already know she's cheated on you and also had sex with other people while you were "split up" so what is your tolerance level for that type of behavior? 

[AustenJ]

Hey, Matt S.!

First off you have to let this stuff go... .it will make you crazy. Borderlines totally mess with your intuition... .you run any of these scenarios by a group of people who have never dated a borderline and I guarantee they all say... ."what's wrong with you, man? It's as clear as day... .she's so cheating on you!"  But like you and anyone else who has been involved romantically with a borderline, and we are balls deep in the relationship (pun intended), it's impossible to get a clear understanding of situations like this... .and we let them go because we are so in love and we do everything not to lose the loves of our lives... .

Before we lived together, my summer job was working part time at a golf course where I worked really early in the mornings. On the weekends I would go to her place after work around 7am and hop into bed with her and cuddle for the morning... .she always knew ahead of time that I was coming and would leave her door unlocked... .so after work on a Saturday, I showed up and her door was locked... .hmmmmm... .so I texted, called, banged on her door til she answered... .she is a really heavy sleeper and would always drink heavily on the weekends out with friends... .of course, she stepped out on the porch to talk to me instead of inviting me in and immediately told me that she and her friend Johnny had ubered back to her place after partying... .she always insisted that they were just friends... .and he was sleeping on the couch, promise! I had never met Johnny, but of course, my spider sense was not tingling, and I accepted her story... .I was more upset that she had forgotten about our morning cuddling session... .

so after work on sunday I show up again... .this time there is a strange vehicle parked in front of her place... .she lived in a duplex so I gave her the benefit of the doubt... .She usually parks in her garage... .I banged on the door, texted, called, leaned on the doorbell, no answer... .hmmmmm... .I even went over to her duplex neighbor and asked them if  that strange car parked out front belonged to them... .of course, they said they had never seen it... .hmmmmmmmm... .she finally texted and said she was running our trail and would be back shortly... .she never sent me many pics unless they were selfies of her... .but she sends me a pic of the trail like it's proof... .I ask her about the car and she says it must belong to her neighbor's friend... .and of course, I tell her that I already spoke to her neighbors and the car does not belong to them... .she doesn't know who it belongs to and sends me another pic of her car parked at the head of the trail... .more proof... .I tell her I'm across town but I'm actually sitting in a location where I can not be seen watching her duplex... .cuz i'm thinking that the guy is still sleeping at her place while she went for a run or that her car is actually in the garage... .I'm so intent on watching the door as it's the only way in or out, and the neighbor's door is right there too... .a guy comes from the back of the building and hops in that car... .hmmmmmm... .never actually saw her with the guy, mind you, but... .come on now... .I figured it out later... .they had run the trail together after spending the night together (same guy)... .she dropped him about a half mile from her place and he sprinted to his car... .still at this point it was crazily not a relationship-ender... .she was pissed that I pounded on her door again... .she was guilty as sin... .but you let all that slide when you are in love with a borderline... .they are very good at lying and providing misdirection... .

 You will make yourself crazy trying to figure out a borderline... .they have trouble figuring themselves out

[GlennT]

 I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard/read these BPD excuses for when they're cheating: "I'm busy working.", "I will be seeing an old/friend/family.", then they go ghost, and return saying they were "raped" or "assaulted". When they are actually caught with someone, or spitting BS, they all rely on the same old "insult and dismiss" school of discourse,and becoming even more insulting and dismissive when you counterattack. These are a couple of common BPD excuses and  procedures you've mentioned here imo.

[MiserableMostly]

But when I put my rational head on (not the emotional one), I know that this was the push after the pull. This was her feeling engulfed and not being able to stand it, and having to push as hard as she could to get me out of her life as I'd triggered deep emotional pain in her that I doubt even she fully understands herself. Feelings are facts, and her feeling was that of emotional suffocation, that was my fault, and so I am to blame, so I must be dumped.

This really rings true for me. About 6 weeks into dating I asked her to be my girlfriend. And he said yes right away. And then 5 minutes later she said she couldn't do it. And took it back. That was this being acted out before my very eyes.

[infjEpic]

Honestly, when we were together, a lot of the time she was pretty balanced out... You want to know when things started getting really crazy? After I broke up with her in the hospital...

Ever since then, she's been on some kind of self-destructive sex and lying binge... .I wonder why that is?

It's always worse after the break up.
Once you've become aware of the grandiose false-ego, it's never the same again.

The other 2 posters in this thread are spot on.
These are questions you will probably never get an answer to.

I don't think there is any problem with asking for a 2nd opinion. So my attitude is fire away - if it helps you.
But they have a good point in that - you will never actually get the truth, and these questions can incessantly eat at you. (speaking from personal experience)

My relationship lasted 126 days, with another 27 days of recycling until I finally went full NC.
I had come to the conclusion that she was a nasty individual three times in that timeframe.
It was the understanding it would never change, that i was waiting for. Couldn't move on, until  I got that.
In this way, the ASPD and NPD traits of my ex were actually a blessing in disguise. 3 months post breakup and 2months into NC, she was passenger in a car that tried to run me over in the car park of a local shopping centre.

But think about how short a timeframe that is really - that's barely enough time to finish the honeymoon period in a non-disordered relationship.
And yet I would dwell on the details. For a while, it really came to totally define me, more than anything else in my life.
That's not surprising, since there is so much hurt and betrayal. So much emotion and trauma.

But even to this day, I will still take time to ruminate about various deceptions.
I'm just much better than swatting those thoughts away now.
It's a time based thing for most people.
The counter starts ticking from the day you go FULL NO CONTACT.

My attitude is that, when it comes to BPD, always expect the most selfish explanation to be true.
You have prior proof that she was promiscuous, and the 2nd incident is screaming of deception and betrayal.

There were stats I was looking at on this forum the other day and in 65% of cases, the non was cheated on. About another 15 to 20% were 'I suspect, but have no proof'
About 5% were I don't know.
So that basically means, in 9 out of 10 cases, the BPD is more likely than not to be cheating.
And I suspect that some of those 1 in 10 are in denial in all honesty... .I've even heard some rationalise away the pain along the lines of "well, he/she didn't betray me, it was the disorder that betrayed me".
Well, in that case, Charles Manson is a free man, it was the psychopathy that murdered those people, not Manson.
Or it was the gun killed those people, not the person behind it.
Or whatever.

I think people will find a way to cope with all the pain in whatever way they can, but this method of blaming the disorder and not accepting the person in their entirety - while externally, it seems compassionate - it's actually very dangerous and deluded. Nothing is learned. No defenses are constructed, and the individual actually becomes MORE susceptible to later abuse - NOT less!

The bottom line here is that you have more evidence than you could ever possibly want, that this person is toxic.
And toxicity lingers in the host - long after the source has been removed.
That is why you are still dwelling on these betrayals.
Embrace the anger for a while and let it protect you - accept the betrayal - but then - let it go.

You can still be grateful for the good times, but you have an enhanced level of reinforcement against toxic people who may come your way in the future.

[once removed]

My biggest mistake was not taking the red flags seriously and getting out early .

The biggest mistake is getting involved with a BPD

its interesting how many members compare their relationships to an addiction (including members in this thread).

there are lots of people that experiment with drugs/drinking in high school and college that dont become addicts, much like there are people that have dated someone with BPD, experienced the unhealthy dynamics, reassessed, made changes and/or walked away.

an addict in treatment/recovery explores the relationship they formed with their substance of choice, and they learn a lot about who they are and how they got there in the process. they learn better coping mechanisms. they live a fuller life. 

some continue to point the drug - "if i just stay away from the drug, if i just hadnt touched the drug... .". do we really want to stop our journey there?

[Duped 1]

some continue to point the drug - "if i just stay away from the drug, if i just hadnt touched the drug... .". do we really want to stop our journey there?

If you are comparing having a rs with a pwBPD to a drug then the answer is definitely yes. How many people have actually have a mutually satisfying rs with a BPD? There is a reason even some trained counselors won't deal with them. My sister is one of them and there are many. So if you're asking if it would be best to just stay away from abusive people with the emotional intelligence of 4 years olds the answer is a definite yes.

[ynwa]

Hey Matt,

It's no easy thing to accept the things we have to with our loved ones.  Doing the emotional math fails us, doing the rational math fails us.  Because we are involved with these people who we accept and love, we think then they will to.

The things she has done and will do, are not about you. But BPD or not, this is what she will do throughout her life. You should not have to have gone through this, and I see you hurting and trying to clarify every feeling with an answer.

This is not your fault or responsibility, you did not make her do these things.
Letting go of that weight, is hard, damn hard. And there isn't any easy way to do it, then just letting it go, with a crash and a bang. 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111772.0

Try reading this, and practice 5-10 minutes of mindfulness. Just before you read it.

Just sit quietly, comfortably, start breathing and count to 10, 1 for inward breath, 2 for out and continue to 10 and repeat.  Concentrate on your counting, and let your body and mind relax and listen to how it feels.

[once removed]

If you are comparing having a rs with a pwBPD to a drug

you made the comparison, Duped, in several posts.

if youre saying the issue is the beer bottle and not the addict, fair enough. the problem is we learn nothing that way, we dont resolve in a balanced way, our relationship with the drug, or our complicated feelings around it, and we dont resolve the underlying issues, the dysfunction that we brought into the relationship, and we are extremely likely to carry all of it to future relationships.

[Soulcrushed4]

I agree with all the posters above.

I was cheated on endlessly start to finish. The blatant ones were met with a misdirection or further straight up lies. There were denials, double speak, blame-shifting and discussions of what was and wasn't cheating or an emotional affair or a physical affair or endless accusations, deflections or partial drop feeding of "truths". Or involving an uninvested third parties opinion on whether said behaviour was acceptable or not in their opinion. Or pointing out ways I had been imperfect in my dealings with the opposite sex so I must be the one projecting. I'm positive there are countless other indiscretions I didn't even have a clue about. In the end his convenient way to avoid accountability was putting it all on me for not "wanting to heal" or not "wanting or trying to trust" him, or living in the past... .completely overlooking the fact that he had lied and continued to cheat through so many supposed fresh starts but it fell to me to continue to as I had done foolishly before make the effort to keep rug sweeping the red flags because then he was not responsible for not causing more damage or needing to come clean since to him I wouldn't believe it anyway. I also think the cheating was his way of hurting me because it became a very clear weapon of choice if I didn't behave or treat him the way he deemed acceptable and of course it was also the perfect way to keep us from getting to close and in his mind justified by my imperfections or shortcomings.

I think wanting desperately to just have the truth truth, having all the puzzle pieces so to speak, or full story, relying on him to somehow show me I was worthy of his honesty is part of what kept me in the sick cycle.

My need/desire for fidelity and honesty was a massive stumbling block in the relationship.

It still is a raw wound. I still struggle with accepting that I won't ever have the full truth from him and I believe now that's my biggest hurdle to healing... .that and just accepting that I it happened and that I overlooked so many red flags I never have in other relationships. I'm working on accepting that I deserved the truth but that he isn't capable of or interested in facing it so I need to move forward.

Even if she didn't "cheat" physically or emotionally in any of the scenarios you mentioned it still isn't behaviour that to me is conducive to a healthy relationship. It's hard to make peace when we don't have all the answers but sometimes knowing more  just opens up yet another door of more heartbreak and trauma.
I'm realizing in doing the relationship autopsy solo that my spider senses were tingling early on and I'm trying to focus on how and why I ignored my gut soo many times so it doesn't happen ever again.

[Duped 1]

you made the comparison, Duped, in several posts.

if youre saying the issue is the beer bottle and not the addict, fair enough. the problem is we learn nothing that way, we dont resolve in a balanced way, our relationship with the drug, or our complicated feelings around it, and we dont resolve the underlying issues, the dysfunction that we brought into the relationship, and we are extremely likely to carry all of it to future relationships.

I completely disagree that I will be carrying underlying issues into future relationships. I've never had such a messed up rs before. Why? Because she is BPD and I was being attacked verbally on a routine basis.

[FallenOne]

You have to remember and remind yourself that you were treated poorly.

[FallenOne]

I'm asking because this is a board for people who have been through some pretty traumatic experiences and it's no surprise all of us (including myself) would have negative things to say about a traumatic experience...

The general consensus around the internet is that these relationships are impossible, or next to impossible... And 99% of you have said they never work, they always fail, and there is no happy ending or riding off into the sunset with the next partner...

Yet, if you go to a site like psychforums.com for example and go to the "BPD Relationships" board where it's the exact opposite of this board (people with BPD trying to cope with failed relationships) everyone on THOSE boards say things like ":)on't fret, there is hope for you afterall" "You can have a successful relationship" "You can overcome this and find a lifetime companion" "it's difficult but not impossible" etc. etc...

So are they all doomed... .or not? Are people just saying whatever they think will "soothe" us on either board? Is it no different than telling a suicidal jumper that "their life has meaning and it's not worth it... "?

I've read stories from people on here, and elsewhere, about these relationships lasting 20, 30 or even 40 years. That doesn't seem like a failure to me.

Also, If they don't grieve relationships, or they don't feel the pain that we feel after a breakup... .whether they initiated it or not... .then why are there boards offering BPD's support for failed relationships?

[once removed]

it seems you are still looking for exceptions to the "rules" youre reading about on the internet. there always will be. the world isnt black and white.

ill tell you of course not "all" of "their" relationships are "doomed" and that this is all or nothing thinking. someone else will be along to tell you that of course all of their relationships are doomed.

so, knowing this, what do you want us to tell you, and how can we inform your question?

[SoMadSoSad]

It can work with someone who is compatible. My ex made it work with the replacement and they rode off into the sunset. He does trigger her but he knows how to calm her down.

[Pretty Woman]

Matt, I can second that some people work better with them than others.

My ex is still nasty as heck to my replacement. My replacement tolerates it. She also handles it better than I did. Does that mean I suck? No. What it means is this was NOT the right relationship for me.

BPD or not you can continue to analyze all the "what if's" however, at the end of the day it's still the same... .you were not a good match for each other, BPD or not.

[infjEpic]

I've read stories from people on here, and elsewhere, about these relationships lasting 20, 30 or even 40 years. That doesn't seem like a failure to me.

Also, If they don't grieve relationships, or they don't feel the pain that we feel after a breakup... .whether they initiated it or not... .then why are there boards offering BPD's support for failed relationships?

My views - like anyone - are informed by my personal experience.
Also by extensive reading (and receiving counselling), rather than any formal training.

Given the volatility of the disorder and the relatively short time DBT has been on the scene, just going off base statistics alone, you're going to have a much higher percentage of people with a traumatic experience.
That probably answers at least part of your question.

I haven't looked on that other forum you mentioned - but I'd be very reluctant to post there anyway. I'd be concerned of the damage I could do to people unintentionally, besides having nothing constructive to offer.

I don't post in the 'making it work' sections here either.
To me, most of people are denial - not a criticism, I was in denial once too - but it's very difficult to help someone who is in denial. They usually require a revelation in the form of a nasty splitting episode or a devaluation cycle.

Part of my reason for posting is because I was blindsided by BPD. Totally ignorant.
Not only would I want to prevent other people experiencing the associated trauma, or help them to leave an abusive situation if they are in it, I also find it helps me to process my own thoughts and emotions, by helping others.
And I'm still learning new things also.

Another part of the reason I post - is because there is so little awareness of Cluster B disorders.
The media really do us a massive disservice.
Not only had I no idea what BPD was before my relationship... .I thought a Narc is someone who looks in the mirror a lot. Clueless (and most people would consider me well educated on a broad range of topics!)

I'll often read news articles where there is clear Cluster B disorder at play.
The best the media have to offer, are tactless or uninformative descriptions such as 'BunnyBoiler' or 'Psycho'.
They rarely delve below the absolute surface level description. No explaining. No informing.
Lazy Journalism. Therefore, it's free to propagate.
I'll often leave a comment in the article, to briefly explain what Cluster B disorders are, and that they don't all come under the banner of psychopaths.

Just imagine if dating sites forced you to read an article about BPD before you could sign up - at the minimum it would increase awareness. It's like cigarettes not carrying a carcinogen warning - except that the link between smoking and cancer is mainstream knowledge.

Like I said, I had no prior knowledge of it's existence. But now that I've been through it and come out the other side, I surprised by the amount of people who have a friend or a nephew or something, in a similar situation, even in the small city where I live.
I always offer to have a 10min chat with them to share my experience... .the thing is, it's much easier for people to 'be real' from behind an anonymous username, than it is in person.
Forums such as this should receive a government subvention imo - but I digress.


In terms of making it work - I'm an INFJ, which is supposed to be the most compatible type with BPDs.
I never had a relationship that lasted less than 3 years, until the BPD which lasted 126 days with 27 days of recycling before FULL NC.
I think if the BPD is willing to acknowledge they have a disorder, and they're willing to do DBT and whatever else is required, then maybe it could work.
But that takes years. And usually the BPD sufferer has to be single.
And that's before taking traits into account. If the sufferer has pronounced ASPD & NPD traits, then it's a whole different animal.

Most of the posts you'll see from people who post here, who have 15 or 20 years experience in a BPD relationship, are usually quite sad, like someone who just woke up from a nightmare, and questioning how they let it happen, how they became the abused etc.

There's no way I could live with myself, if I encouraged someone to stay through what I experienced, never mind years of abuse!, in the hope that there might be a payoff at the end.

I think I have a duty to inform.

[Rayban]

Matt S

You started  a thread on this forum stating that if you didn't react to her or if you would have been more accepting then you could have made it work with your BPDex. If she is untreated you have to outcomes; walk away or choose to stay and accept the inevitable cheating, lying, and eventual death by 1000 small cuts. God bless those folks who stood by in some cases for multiple decades of this. Longevity is not necessarily an indication of a successful relationship.

As for BPD suffers on the other board who are self-aware and seeking or getting help ... .well yes they can strive to healthy relationships if they are honest with their partners and taking actions, not just words to improve.

All that being said does it really matter in your case?

Are you willing to overlook the FACTS that your ex has;

Obtained a RO against you, villified you, lied to you, cheated on you, pushed you away to pull you back in stronger ... .does it really matter why some of these relationships last longer then other's?

Consider yourself lucky and start spending more time on making yourself a better person and less time trying to figure out why a mentally disordered person do what they do.

[vanx]

Matt,
I've been getting a lot out of your posts. They seem to generate some deep discussion. This one's interesting to me. Personally, I have a history of mental illness and difficulty finding healthy relationships. I know when my T says, "you know borderlines can't have relationships" etc, on some level it takes away some of the pain, but only in a superficial way. And also, it feels pretty damning in a hurtful way. I struggle with issues similar to her, so maybe that means I'm doomed too. How does a person with BPD cope with stigma and heal? Yes, it's an attachment disorder that definitely affects relationships. Like anyone, like us here too, pwBPD need to assess their issues honestly, but they also deserve hope and compassion.
I look at psychforums occasionally as well, because I like to learn about people with BPD from their perspective and experiences. From what I read on there, I see value in the support often offered there, because like I said, people suffering deserve hope and understanding. That said, though it's moderated and informed, it is also a place of opinions and personal stories, which will differ.

So are they all doomed... .or not? Are people just saying whatever they think will "soothe" us on either board? Is it no different than telling a suicidal jumper that "their life has meaning and it's not worth it... "?

I think you're right--there is a lot of soothing, because we mostly come here wounded, and we need people to understand us, but also, people on here will give it to you pretty straight I think when they're able, because we can handle some truth we need to get through! Also, to use your example, I think the person telling the jumper life is worth it really means and believes that!
I don't know for a fact, but I do believe there is hope for pwBPD, a lot of hope, but it also seems like a real challenge. It seems like early experiences can have a great impact on us, but also, if there is a will to change and hard work, it can be done. This kind of work I think has to be done within, however. Maybe a better way to frame it is, it's not really helpful to say that they are "doomed", but just that they have their own issues to deal with that they will have to face themselves to get better.

Also, If they don't grieve relationships, or they don't feel the pain that we feel after a breakup... .whether they initiated it or not... .then why are there boards offering BPD's support for failed relationships?

The "grieving" issue is one I am still interested to understand better. I think many of us know what you mean. My ex was uncharacteristically cool when she dumped me. With her, I think it was just how she had to cope with things, without having the skills or understanding of herself to have handled it differently. I don't think she feels a sense of loss of me as a person, but just probably feels not so great if the thoughts creep up. Just a wager though--who knows?
With the failed r/l support (someone correct me if I am wrong!) but I do think abandonment issues are definitely often triggered especially when the non dumps, and pwBPD do mourn the loss of the r/l, miss the person, want to reunite, feel ashamed at pushing someone away. This is something none can experience too, but with pwBPD, there may be more severe attachment issues that make the loss more difficult.

[Reforming]

This thread has been locked due to reaching its post limit. 

The discussion is continued here

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=305607.0;topicseen