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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: This just doesn't makes any sense - 4  (Read 4049 times)
FallenOne
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« on: January 18, 2017, 08:23:19 AM »

When I read the posts on this forum, I see a lot of negativity, and rightly so as these people put us through a lot and we all have similar stories and experiences.

People seem to think that BPD's (or any personality disorder) or people with narcissistic traits are hopeless, that they'll never be able to maintain a relationship, and that they have no empathy, no conscience, and only care about their own feelings and needs.

This is how I felt a great deal in my relationship also... However, my ex did show empathy, a conscience, and cared for me a great deal when I was painted white... When I was painted black though, absolutely not... .I was the worst person in the world then.

But this topic is about the people around the internet who claim to be BPD or have narcissistic traits and claim to have overcome them or become aware of their own behavior.

My ex did NOT seem to be aware of what she was doing... Either that or she was lying, or her behavior just came natural to her and she thought it was normal in her mind...

If you go to youtube and search for this stuff, you'll find hundreds of videos of people who admit to being BPD or narcissists and how they managed to train themselves (in their own creative way) and have overcome most of their behaviors and symptoms...

So, are these people just fakers? What's up with this? Are they just not truly BPD or narcissistic and are only making these videos/stories for other reasons?

I'm asking because everyone makes it sound as if these people will never admit their faults, never admit their wrondoings, are in complete denial of their behavior etc.

So, if that's the case, then why are so many of them around the net and on youtube claiming to have "cured" themselves? Can someone explain this?


Prior:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=304431.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=305602.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=305603.0

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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2017, 08:43:39 AM »

Here is a list of cognitive distortions:
Checklist of Cognitive Distortions

I'll make up some examples on the spot now... .

Overgeneralization: "All persons with BPD will never get better."

All or nothing thinking: "Persons with BPD are evil, stay away from them, they are inhuman."

Mental Filter: " My ex with BPD only messed with my mind, tried to hurt me every chance (s)he got, never looked out for me or cared for me, the relationship was only filled with bad stuff, her cheating, her lying, etc. idk why I stayed so long."

I can go on, but maybe you get the point.

Imo, we attract persons at similar maturity level as ourselves.
It is no wonder you read a lot about them... ."never admitting wrong doing, not having empathy ever, etc."

Look at your source!
Is it a reputable mental health organization that you are learning from re pwBPD "never getting any better or never having empathy?"

Or is it someone who was dating one and is coping with loss?



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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2017, 08:49:12 AM »

This is stuff I have read on this very same forum... Or other similar forums, like psych forums. These things are from other peoples accounts and experiences... .
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2017, 08:56:53 AM »

I think it's manageable if you get intense therapy... .and stick with it.

What you need to realize is that the BPD faces several obstacles if they decide to seek treatment. These "obstacles" often trigger their fear of abandonment issues.

There have been many studies done in regards to BPD and treatment. You've heard that phrase "birds of a feather flock together"? Well many BPD's behavior has been accepted by their immediate family and enabled. Usually the immediate family is not stable and has issues which did not help the BPD. Their actions are often excused and sometimes defended.

"Oh so and so is just the black sheep of the family. This is how they always are"!

Well sometimes the "black sheep" is actually a person with much deeper issues.

When a BPD seeks treatment often their biggest fear is that they will be ostracized by their family who has come to accept them acting out this way, regardless of how heinous or inappropriate their actions are.

Getting help can cause the BPD to lose support, their army of enablers who are always there when they eff up. That's what's really sad.

I don't buy into the whole "BPD can be cured" because it's not a mental disorder, it's an engrained personality disorder. You cannot change your personality. But can you behave better... .

Yes.

With hard work I think BPD's can live productive lives and can manage their issues. Unfortunately, many do not attempt therapy nor stick to it long term to make any difference in their situations.
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2017, 09:08:52 AM »

My ex has stuck with therapy, is on a lot of meds, and has stuck with it for years... .

She is aware that she has a problem, but doesn't seem to understand her own problems... She still has most of the traits of a borderline.

So, she's getting and sticking with treatment, but it doesn't seem to be the "right" treatment...

It's VERY sad, because I feel like if she knew more about her own issues (since she's already clearly willing to work on herself) then she could be so much better than what she is and it could change all of this... .
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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2017, 09:10:17 AM »

Excerpt
I'm asking because everyone makes it sound as if these people will never admit their faults, never admit their wrondoings, are in complete denial of their behavior etc

Literally everyone does not do that.  I have not, many others have not.  This is hyperbole. Or an overgeneralization.  

Can you trust the accuracy of the info from persons who are communicating in cognitive distortions?
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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2017, 11:26:44 AM »

Mine certainly would not admit her faults. If she would have , we would have had something to work with. She absolutely would not own her bad behavior unless she thought I was going to leave her. She would say she couldn't see her part in the demise of the RS but at other times you could tell she know she wasn't quite right. At first I thought it was all lies, but some of the time I think she was so messed up that she truly couldn't see or remember all the horrible things she did and said to me. I believe in her case some of it she  really couldn't because she was so disordered and other parts of the denial and blame and rewriting history to make me look like the villain and her the victim were just outright lies on her part.
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2017, 11:33:22 AM »

is the question about the statements members here make, or about the veracity of what youre looking at on the internet? both?

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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2017, 11:38:48 AM »

Both. I'm comparing... I see people on these boards (and other boards) saying that these people will never change, they're hopeless, and I see people talking in absolutes... They'll ALWAYS do this, or they'll ALWAYS be that way etc...

Then, I go on youtube, and I see hundreds of videos of accounts of people with BPD and narcissists who are admitting their behaviors, admitting their wrongdoings and changing themselves for the better...

So this is a complete contradiction from what I read bout versus what I'm seeing in these videos on youtube...
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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2017, 11:42:01 AM »

Either these people are capable of admitting their faults and healing or they're not...

My ex, for example, I found admitted to some of her faults and KNEW she had something wrong with her, even after getting her diagnosis of BPD, she was able to admit that she was guilty of certain things (not without the tears flowing of course)...

Yet her treatment and therapy don't seem to make her symptoms/traits go away... Which makes me question whether or not she's even getting the proper treatment?
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2017, 11:53:16 AM »

dont lose sight that this is a spectrum disorder and that every individual is different. it gets said, but it cant be stressed enough. to echo  Bullet: contents of text or email (click to insert in post) Sunfl0wer, you are reading posts from members who are hurting, and speaking from a depressed place. if you are questioning the veracity of over generalizations, i think thats wise.

and as this is a spectrum disorder and every individual is different, if you are looking for a "BPD perspective" you will get a wide variety of people of all walks of life, some more self aware than others, some in treatment and some not, and any bit of it may or may not apply to you and your relationship. personally ive skimmed a bit here and there, but cant say ive ever read/heard/seen much that spoke to me.

so are you asking which is true, or are you telling members "hey guys, what youre saying just isnt adding up"?

moreover, how is it speaking to you and your detachment process? what applies in what you are reading here vs what youre viewing on youtube, to your ex and your relationship, if any of it?

and if thats your goal, to identify how it all applies to you, i recommend seeking out clinical, factual information on BPD (a great deal of what you will find on the internet is far from it).  
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2017, 12:07:19 PM »

Excerpt
Either these people are capable of admitting their faults and healing or they're not... .

IMHO... .the issue lies in categorizing/stereotyping a group of people as "these people" whether it be Irish, Blue Eyes, pwBPD.

If you think of pwBPD as human... .
Yes, just like you and I, sometimes we can admit our faults, sometimes we cannot, sometimes we will, sometimes we will not.  Some humans/people, are more insightful, more mature, more introspective, more easily able to admit or share what is on their mind.

Also, sometimes what you see as my fault may not be to me considered a fault.  It can be subjective.  I may like that I am "strong willed" whereas you may see me as inflexible or stubborn.

There is a reason "admitting faults" is not on DSM as a trait... .my guess... . we all lie!  We all can struggle with insight.  This does not help classify folks to help treat them, also, it is subjective to a degree.  It often rarely serves therapeutic endeavors to lay blame on a person.  Quite different to have introspection and insight on why a behavior is getting one a certain result than labeling stuff good or bad and laying blame.

The idea that seems most helpful to me, other than sterotyping, is look at how the behavior "functions" or does not function and serve the person or serve in a relationship with another person.

I will admit a fault/stereotype, I generally don't date cars salesmen.  I just have an issue with folks not listening and running their agenda down my throat.  :)oesn't really mean they ALL do.  :)oesn't really mean if a person does that at work, they will do that at home.  I just generally am guarded, until I learn otherwise.

PwBPD do struggle, often lack internal locus of control, instead thinking their life is happening TO them vs they are responsible for it, they often have issues with emotional regulation, returning to baseline, being oversensitive, black/white thinking.

Yet, just as all of us, we are all individuals and come in a variety of expressions and mixes of traits and all.

I too have read blogs and such written from the pwBPD perspective and have seen some really fricken brilliant and insightful stuff.  Now, idk if they were able use same insight in the moments of their relationship and apply it... .I won't assume.

I do have/had a friend who has BPD. (We faded away, not painted black) She sought professional help, found out her Dx of BPD, and worked her butt off to save her life and make changes and to learn and understand herself.  She IS married, has a family, and from social media, appears ok.  Yet, idk her struggles, and I won't assume.  Last I talked they were not to severe compared to me without BPD, and she was aware of her abandonment issues and such, but struggled, but also showed extreme gratitude to her husband because she aknowleged his efforts.  She was working, working was hard, but she was managing, and she seems like she has been stable some time.

That does not mean every pw BPD is capable of her insight and hard work.

I tend to play... .
"Spot the cognitive distortion"
Then it changes my viewpoint of trusting that persons insight, awareness, etc.

As soon as I realize I am listening to biased info, I often tune out.
It is usually up to the individual tho to determine bias.
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2017, 12:13:14 PM »

What we have to bear in mind is that for a pwBPD their behaviour is normal. Its a matter of perspective. If the family have strong BPD traits then growing up it would seem normal. My exgf found it odd that I didn't argue. She felt that arguing was part of a normal relationship.

So if a pwBPD has grown up thinking it normal then them realising it isn't wont come easy. Its the realising that theres something wrong which is the biggest hurdle in change.
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2017, 12:13:40 PM »

so are you asking which is true, or are you telling members "hey guys, what youre saying just isnt adding up"?

moreover, how is it speaking to you and your detachment process? what applies in what you are reading here vs what youre viewing on youtube, to your ex and your relationship, if any of it?

I'm asking which is true, because the detachment stories I read about definitely resonate with me and I see the similarities between the experiences of others and my own, but people who are hurt and detaching seem to just say that these people can't and won't change, and then I see stories from people with the disorders saying they can and did change, so it's confusing and contradictory.

I just know that my ex was diagnosed, but at times did apologize and did admit faults and guilts, and if it's possible for her to change and minimize her traits that would be a great thing...

It speaks to me because I'd like to think that deep down, somewhere deep inside my ex's mind, she is capable of changing and improving.
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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2017, 12:17:50 PM »

Excerpt
Yet her treatment and therapy don't seem to make her symptoms/traits go away... Which makes me question whether or not she's even getting the proper treatment?

Well, like any illness, say, diabetes for example... .
Just because someone is attending appointments to see their doctor, and symptoms seem to not go away, does not mean the course of treatment the doctor perscribed was not "proper."

There are a myriad of reasons why symptoms do not simply "go away" without treatment.  I am sure you can come up with a bunch yourself.

Yet, it not being the best treatment is one possibility, amongst a host of others.
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« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2017, 12:23:11 PM »

What we have to bear in mind is that for a pwBPD their behaviour is normal. Its a matter of perspective. If the family have strong BPD traits then growing up it would seem normal. My exgf found it odd that I didn't argue. She felt that arguing was part of a normal relationship.

So if a pwBPD has grown up thinking it normal then them realising it isn't wont come easy. Its the realising that theres something wrong which is the biggest hurdle in change.

She knows she has BPD and that there's something wrong, but I don't think she understands her own symptoms well enough to make a change... I don't think she has researched her own disorder as much as I have. She just does what her doctors tell her to do...

She's still stuck in the black and white thinking, putting her needs above others, blaming others, victimizing herself, painting people white and black... These seem to be her most common issues.
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« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2017, 12:25:44 PM »

Hi FallenOne,

Excerpt
People seem to think that BPD's (or any personality disorder) or people with narcissistic traits are hopeless, that they'll never be able to maintain a relationship, and that they have no empathy, no conscience, and only care about their own feelings and needs.

I just wanted to touch on this quickly, if you read clinical information on BPD, think about all of things that's going on inside that person, it's not just BPD but other mental illnesse's as well, I'll use a mood disorder like depression as another example. Now if you're looking from the outside in, can you see why someone would be self absorbed? It's something that our exes are going through internally, it can be incredibly difficult for someone to understand the needs of others when you're overwhelmed inside, it's not personal to us.

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« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2017, 12:26:04 PM »

It speaks to me because I'd like to think that deep down, somewhere deep inside my ex's mind, she is capable of changing and improving.

so youre wondering if your ex can and/or will change?

sure shes capable. we all are, though change is hard, and some will embrace it, some will fight it. whether she will is anyones guess, and you know her better than we do.

we all learn from and change as a result of close relationships, i think, and we approach things differently. sometimes we learn the wrong lessons. sometimes we keep banging up against the very same outcomes (repetition compulsion). sometimes we accept that the issue is us, and we embrace that notion and take responsibility rather than run from it.

that type of change is scary and hard for anyone. i think its noble you wish her the best as opposed to rooting for her failure. whatever happens is ultimately in her control.
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« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2017, 12:31:08 PM »

She's aware that she has BPD and that she has "problems" but any time she's confronted with honesty about what is really going on with her and what she's really doing, she reacts with aggression or just leaves the situation (goes home, runs off, leaves the room, won't listen)... .

It's like a type of denial or unwillingness to face the truth?
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« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2017, 12:42:38 PM »

It's like a type of denial or unwillingness to face the truth?

sure. its also shame, projection/denial of shame, heightened sensitivity to rejection, cognitive distortion, a feelings = facts mentality, amplified emotions, a fundamental belief that she is "bad" coupled with a victim mentality and split others as a defense mechanism.

its a complex and sad disorder. these aspects of it do present obstacles to change.
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« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2017, 04:40:06 PM »

Matt S. The easiest response to this is to say, there is no cure. All that can be done is to try to regulate the disorder - not cure. Of course most are aware, or they would not be on their best behavior in the beginning. They have in a sense trained themselves as to what is acceptable responses. They do not have a sense of who they are at their core though, so eventually they will exhibit the responses that everyone has described in these boards.

As far as knowing the truth? It is common for most of them to confabulate. Best example of this was in my college phyc class, they did a study with 4 year olds, wont go into long details, but they told an experience that the child had not experienced, after time, not only did the child (all the children in the study showed the same results) believe that they had experienced it, but added their own details to the story.

I only tell this to show that with these disorders, I think they keep telling themselves facts or events that did not happen, but after awhile i think they truly believe they did.
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« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2017, 04:52:15 PM »

No words of wisdom here(and I  think you are saying this) and back to the  spectrum that BPD is on.  In my case( over and over) it happened that where a event really did happen, but what was said or done is really distorted and changes over time.  alot to do with feeling = facts i suspect.  Sadly they wear you down... over time, and at least in my case, started believing the distorted version
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« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2017, 11:02:20 PM »

First and foremost -- The great Marsha Linehan who created dialectical behavior therapy created it for herself to put her own borderline personality disorder in its proper place.  Look her up.  University of Washington.  She's as good as it gets.

To cage BPD as much as possible, there must be a huge commitment to intensive therapy.  The general consensus among psychologists who treat BPDs is a few years of 2+ visits per week. 

Many BPDs will admit, deny, deny, deny, admit, deny, admit, admit, deny, deny, deny ... .it's a pattern that traps most and prevents them from proper therapy.  And hey start therapy, then quit.  Find a new therapist, then move on.  Time passes, maybe find another, then quit that one too.  Gotta keep everyone away from the heart, heart of the matter that is.  BPD walls others out.  Therapy threatens to uncover/reveal; scary stuff.

All the YouTube videos?  I would suggest reliable and valid materials.  Scholarly, academic, that will provide the information closest to the truth.
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« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2017, 03:48:40 AM »

They are not hopeless.
The BPD individual has the capacity to change if they want to.
Who knows if our exes in particular will change for the better or not.
Being in intensive therapy certainly helps and the right therapist who knows how to work with people with BPD effectively. Like you said about her not understanding her own problems. That's a huge issue right there and she might not be with the right therapist. It is hard to say.
They don't know who they are so they need to find a way to understand themselves better to be more aware of what they do and how their actions impact others and themselves. BPD are known to hate themselves and have a very negative mindset and they would need to figure a way to manage/change that. I don't know all the ins and outs of DBT therapy but Mindfulness is a huge part of recovery.
We are no longer with them, so we should not worry about whether they will change or not? Maybe?
What would that mean to us if we knew they could or could not change if we are no longer with them?
If they came back and asked for another chance maybe we'd wonder again if anything has changed? maybe?
If I found out my ex has changed her ways and she is honestly really happy with herself and her life then I'd be very happy for her. It really sucks to have BPD. She told me she's happy now with the replacement. I don't know how long they will last but I hope that the replacement can make it last and she becomes a better person somehow rather than have history repeat itself over and over again for her. But that's a lot to wish for at this stage just knowing what she is like and that mine is not in therapy. Sometimes she wants to but last time no. Maybe one day she will really want to. I do wish she gets better for herself but that's up to her.
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« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2017, 12:06:41 PM »

So she's basically just a piece of unstable trash who isn't worth anyone's time and she realizes this herself (but will never admit to it) and is perfectly okay with it? Or is that why she loathes herself so much and wants to commit suicide?

And I'm just the poor sod who was fooled by it for 4 years.
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« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2017, 12:07:22 PM »

Outstanding response PW!
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« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2017, 02:10:09 PM »

My exBPDgf was very self-aware of her destructive behavior... .she referred to herself as a "tornado" always leaving a wide path of destruction. However, her self-awareness never transferred into her getting into treatment... .she had been in DBT for perhaps a year before she met me and was also prescribed drugs by a psychiatrist... .but she didn't like how the drugs affected her and the DBT therapist was digging up too many painful memories, and he was a quack. In our 5 months together I encouraged her to get into treatment frequently in her times when she was most lucid... .and she always said she would, but would never make the call. She was always sorry for her behavior and how she treated me... .but her intellect always amazed me because she came across as so knowledgeable about her disorder and the destructive effects of it on romantic relationships, friends and family. In some ways it was more terrifying for her to be so self aware because she still was not able to control her impulsivity and numerous addictions... .
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« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2017, 05:32:26 PM »

My recommendation is to not watch the videos that people with disorders make. It is their perspective of the disorder. Not discrediting their opinion, but think about it, they are going to play it down. And yes there are not absolutes, but it is like saying someone is a little pregnant! They have a disorder, a mental disorder, that is severe enough that medical professionals have created studies on, countless hours! This is not like diabetes!  This is an issue with thier BRAIN! And it CAN NOT BE CURED!
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 330


« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2017, 06:20:06 PM »

I wanted what she gave me for the first 4 months, the love and affection and the fantastic person she was.
She showed that person again at times but it didn't last, she would start her hurt and irrational behaviour again.
To me I thought with enough love she would revert back to the person I fell in love with, but when she did it was short lived.
Maybe the real her was the horrible one?
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
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« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2017, 09:42:24 AM »

this is in my opinion, essentially, the best video on the disorder out there. it features the prominent experts on the disorder, three pwBPD in treatment, and their families.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=117774.0
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