Is it possible to be TOO detached?

[vortex of confusion]

A quick thought... .question about the "realness" of feelings and actions.

Does it change the way you approach things if you put "for now" on what he is say and doing... .also on your impression of what he is doing.

Then... .throw in some extra interesting spice... .when you realize that he "cycles" or flips a switch much faster than we "nons" do.

If you put those two concepts above into your thinking... .how would that affect your decision to be vulnerable or not?

I have been looking at things from the other side, which is that I have put "for now" on what I am saying and doing. I am living day to day with a faint hope that maybe my feelings will change and I will be okay with being truly vulnerable again.

If I look too long at what he is doing or isn't doing, even if it is "for now", I find myself becoming resentful and angry. I want to be able to be imperfect "for now" and have somebody give me some consideration.

The "for now" is also what has led me to test the waters a bit on occasion. And, for me, I realize that I am a bit afraid of what I might say if I were to become truly vulnerable and truly share my feelings with my husband. I know I would sound bat crap crazy because I have bitten my tongue and kept stuff to myself for years to keep from hurting my husband or going down the path of him dysregulating and getting goofy. It is easier to detach than it is to be brutally honest with him. That is on me, not him. I think what I think and feel would likely destroy him.

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[Michelle27]

A quick thought... .question about the "realness" of feelings and actions.

Does it change the way you approach things if you put "for now" on what he is say and doing... .also on your impression of what he is doing.

Then... .throw in some extra interesting spice... .when you realize that he "cycles" or flips a switch much faster than we "nons" do.

If you put those two concepts above into your thinking... .how would that affect your decision to be vulnerable or not?

Thinking his feelings and actions are real "for now" would be difficult for me.  I long for stability and the knowledge about where I stand at all times.  Not without healthy disagreements and resolutions of course, but that's the issue... .nothing is ever resolved and put to bed.  No matter what we end up agreeing on in any issue, it comes back later as if he needs to hash it out again and come to a different agreement. Life has been so chaotic that I really do need that stability in the relationship and I don't know if it's even possible.

[Michelle27]

My take on what is "real"

A pwBPD will paint you black, and heap abuse on you.

a pwBPD will paint you white, and heap praise and love on you.

Neither one is more real than the other.

Neither one is a healthy way to relate to another human being; the pwBPD doesn't have a core sense of who they are in either version.

Both are sincerely felt/believed by the pwBPD at the time.

As YOU grow and become healthy... .neither one feels 'right' to you.

Interesting.  I wonder if that's why I am having trouble with this.  I have done so much work on getting healthy in working on my side of things and maybe that's why painting me white and love bombing feels just as wrong to me as when he's raging.  And that means that I have no  peace waiting for him to flip from one to the other.

[formflier]

 

His painting you white and love bombing you... .is the way he feels.

It is quite common for people in a relationship to not agree with each others feelings.

I like your analogy of working on "your side" of things. 

Can you apply that to the issue of him love bombing... .

At the moment... .the thinks you are the best thing since sliced bread... .that's his opinion... .he is entitled to it.  Even if you don't agree with his opinion.

You have a more moderate view of yourself... .that's your opinion... .you are entitled to it.  Even if your SO doesn't agree.

Your feelings on yourself are just as valid as his feelings about you. 

Does this help to look at it in this way?  Let him have his opinion... .and you have yours. 

[vortex of confusion]

Thinking his feelings and actions are real "for now" would be difficult for me.  I long for stability and the knowledge about where I stand at all times.  Not without healthy disagreements and resolutions of course, but that's the issue... .nothing is ever resolved and put to bed.  No matter what we end up agreeing on in any issue, it comes back later as if he needs to hash it out again and come to a different agreement. Life has been so chaotic that I really do need that stability in the relationship and I don't know if it's even possible.

I know how difficult it is to be in this position as this is where I have been, especially with wanting to revisit issues and come to different conclusions depending on the day, the time, and the mood.

One of the things that I am trying to do is to stop caring so much about where I stand at any given moment. I am pretty certain that my husband isn't going to leave. I am trying to STOP talking about issues. If he brings an issue up again, I try to remind him of the original agreement and NOT talk about it again. This is where boundaries come in. The confusing thing for me is that when he changes his mind, I find myself changing my mind too. I want peace yet to attain that peace I am having to create waves by setting boundaries and refusing to rehash things to death.

In a "normal" relationship, it is normal for people to change and grow and revisit issues as new information comes to light. That doesn't work because of the feelings being perceived as fact. I have to figure out what I want and what will work for me and then make sure that I don't get caught up in conversations where I become as wishy washy as him.

FF was posting at the same time as me.

It is easier to deal with the love bombing and the rages when YOU get to a place where YOU are clear on who you are and what you want. And, it helps to find a way to not let his opinions about you or anything else influence how YOU feel. It isn't easy. It also reminds me that there are a couple of ways to detach. In some ways, I am not detached enough and in other ways I might be too detached. As long as I am still bothered by his feelings, then I am still probably too attached/enmeshed with him.

This makes sense in my head but I am not doing so good at explaining it. I am still too detached from my own thoughts and feelings, which is why I have a difficult time acknowledging them and owning them, which is part of what allows a person to be vulnerable. At the same time, I am still fretting over what he is thinking, how he is feeling, and how he is acting. I am working on that and have made a lot of progress.

[Michelle27]

His painting you white and love bombing you... .is the way he feels.

It is quite common for people in a relationship to not agree with each others feelings.

I like your analogy of working on "your side" of things. 

Can you apply that to the issue of him love bombing... .

At the moment... .the thinks you are the best thing since sliced bread... .that's his opinion... .he is entitled to it.  Even if you don't agree with his opinion.

You have a more moderate view of yourself... .that's your opinion... .you are entitled to it.  Even if your SO doesn't agree.

Your feelings on yourself are just as valid as his feelings about you. 

Does this help to look at it in this way?  Let him have his opinion... .and you have yours. 

I think this is absolutely a big part of why it's so hard for me.  I do have my opinion/belief of myyself (that I am not black or white but many shades of grey).  When he's painting me as white as can be and love bombing me, he wants constant reassurance that what he's doing is so very much wanted and appreciated by me.  And for that, I can't pretend because this cycle has repeated itself so many times that it gets harder and harder to relax into it.  I know without a shadow of a doubt that anytime I'm "white", it's going to be followed by a period when I'm as black as black can be.  How can I possibly relax in that kind of relationship and enjoy the good stuff when I know the bad is coming at any moment.

[Michelle27]

Thinking his feelings and actions are real "for now" would be difficult for me.  I long for stability and the knowledge about where I stand at all times.  Not without healthy disagreements and resolutions of course, but that's the issue... .nothing is ever resolved and put to bed.  No matter what we end up agreeing on in any issue, it comes back later as if he needs to hash it out again and come to a different agreement. Life has been so chaotic that I really do need that stability in the relationship and I don't know if it's even possible.

I know how difficult it is to be in this position as this is where I have been, especially with wanting to revisit issues and come to different conclusions depending on the day, the time, and the mood.

One of the things that I am trying to do is to stop caring so much about where I stand at any given moment. I am pretty certain that my husband isn't going to leave. I am trying to STOP talking about issues. If he brings an issue up again, I try to remind him of the original agreement and NOT talk about it again. This is where boundaries come in. The confusing thing for me is that when he changes his mind, I find myself changing my mind too. I want peace yet to attain that peace I am having to create waves by setting boundaries and refusing to rehash things to death.

In a "normal" relationship, it is normal for people to change and grow and revisit issues as new information comes to light. That doesn't work because of the feelings being perceived as fact. I have to figure out what I want and what will work for me and then make sure that I don't get caught up in conversations where I become as wishy washy as him.

FF was posting at the same time as me.

It is easier to deal with the love bombing and the rages when YOU get to a place where YOU are clear on who you are and what you want. And, it helps to find a way to not let his opinions about you or anything else influence how YOU feel. It isn't easy. It also reminds me that there are a couple of ways to detach. In some ways, I am not detached enough and in other ways I might be too detached. As long as I am still bothered by his feelings, then I am still probably too attached/enmeshed with him.

This makes sense in my head but I am not doing so good at explaining it. I am still too detached from my own thoughts and feelings, which is why I have a difficult time acknowledging them and owning them, which is part of what allows a person to be vulnerable. At the same time, I am still fretting over what he is thinking, how he is feeling, and how he is acting. I am working on that and have made a lot of progress.

The bolded part of your post above really resonates with me too.  I am much less enmeshed than I used to be when he would spiral.  In the past, I would see the signs of a spiral downwards and my mood would be affected even before the rage happened.  Heightened anxiety on my part likely fueled the inevitable rage into bigger than it would have been and/or more painful for me.  I've done a lot of work on this lately and the last few times I saw the spiral begin, I consciously didn't let it affect me the way it used to and that felt good.  However, the rage that followed affects me still the way it used to unfortunately.

[vortex of confusion]

The bolded part of your post above really resonates with me too.  I am much less enmeshed than I used to be when he would spiral.  In the past, I would see the signs of a spiral downwards and my mood would be affected even before the rage happened.  Heightened anxiety on my part likely fueled the inevitable rage into bigger than it would have been and/or more painful for me.  I've done a lot of work on this lately and the last few times I saw the spiral begin, I consciously didn't let it affect me the way it used to and that felt good.  However, the rage that followed affects me still the way it used to unfortunately.

I think it is normal to be impacted when you see a loved one in distress.

Something that I am seeing about myself is that I have been so distressed about his distress/rage/goofiness, then I am not seeing things clearly and I am not thinking clearly. It is all part of the fog.

I have participated in a lot of parenting forums over the years and helped a lot of parents with situations like that with regards to children. If a child rages and has a tantrum, do you let it ruin your day? The obvious answer is "No, you don't. She is a child and doesn't know what to do with all of those big emotions. It is nothing personal." I am really angry with myself because I could see how it applies to my relationship with my children but I never made the connection and didn't apply this same logic and thinking to my relationship with my husband. I have told lots of parents that children react way better to a parent that is calm and firm and is unaffected by negative behavior. If a child is out of control and you respond in an out of control manner, that only escalates things and makes them worse. If a child is having a bad day and you let it ruin your day, then there is no chance of recovering the day. If you see it as a bad moment instead of a bad day, bad week, bad relationship, then that allows me to keep a certain level of normalcy going, which sometimes soothes things a bit. I can implement this with my kids all day long without batting an eye. But, with my kids, I can say, "No ma'am, you are NOT going to do this. I am NOT going to let you be a jerk and ruin our day." I have done this a time or two with my husband and it has worked. It doesn't feel good though because he is an adult and I expect him to act like one. That leads me to rethink MY expectations, which are NOT realistic at all because I am projecting my idea of what an adult should be and do on him rather than seeing him for who he is.

(Sorry for the rambling. I hope you can make some sense out of it. I am reaching a new level of awareness and trying to figure out how to translate that into action.)

[Michelle27]

That makes perfect sense.  And I struggle with it big time because my idea of a healthy marriage is two adults, not one that has to act like a parent to the other in moments like this.  Complicating it in my situation, when my husband "crashed" 9 years ago, I took over every single responsibility of his and got put into the parent role, taking care of everything around the house and leaving him the only responsibility of showing up to work.  For years even he joked that he was our family's 4th child.  I own my part of that... .at the time I thought I was being caring and helpful but I now see I was allowing him to wallow in his own pain which just deepened his shame and deep hatred of himself. 

[formflier]

When he's painting me as white as can be and love bombing me, he wants constant reassurance that what he's doing is so very much wanted and appreciated by me.  

Tell me more about this... .can you give some word by word (or close to it... examples... )

FF

[Michelle27]

When he's painting me as white as can be and love bombing me, he wants constant reassurance that what he's doing is so very much wanted and appreciated by me.  

Tell me more about this... .can you give some word by word (or close to it... examples... )

FF

Almost every day he will point out the positive things he has done like bringing me flowers after I did our taxes last week, taking me out for my birthday dinner last month and this or that compliment and that after 9 years of literally doing almost nothing around the house, he has started to take initiative and do things.  I always validate by saying that yes, I appreciate those gestures.  He will then use that to say I should then become completely open and vulnerable with him because of it.  I tell him that I'd like to be, because to me, that's what being in a healthy relationship requires, but that I am unable to because of the recurring rages and my  almost constant anxiety about when the next one is going to hit.  He actually can acknowledge that, but always says, "I'm working on it".  I do see him trying by seeking help but when push comes to shove, when he dysregulates, all of the tools he's learning and back up plans (like leaving when it happens) doesn't happen.  And after a rage, he fully acknowledges that he should have used the tools and/or left but that he is unable to see it because the rage takes him, in his words, "like an out of control freight train" down a path he is unable to see clearly from. 

[Michelle27]

I have also told him that I would prefer to not have the "love bombing" in exchange for the peace of knowing that when he does dysregulate, he won't put me in the eye of the storm.  He absolutely validates that for me, but only when he's not dysregulating.  He isn't at the point it seems to know it's happening until afterwards.  He's even come up with various ways for me to point it out to him when I see it, with promises to do whatever it takes to keep the storm to himself, but in the heat of it, he denies until after it's over.

[vortex of confusion]

Almost every day he will point out the positive things he has done like bringing me flowers after I did our taxes last week, taking me out for my birthday dinner last month and this or that compliment and that after 9 years of literally doing almost nothing around the house, he has started to take initiative and do things.  I always validate by saying that yes, I appreciate those gestures.  He will then use that to say I should then become completely open and vulnerable with him because of it.

I think I know what you are describing as my husband does something similar. He announces all of the good things he does and looks for praise. For years, he did very little if anything. Now, that he is doing stuff, he wants recognition and praise for it. I feel like he wants me to see all of this good and relax and go back to the way things were.

In my mind, he isn't doing anything that is great or special. He is doing things that are part of being a parent and part of being a household. I don't get thanked for putting the kids to bed. I don't get thanked or appreciated when I do laundry or pay the bills or any number of other things. It is difficult for me to find ways to validate an adult that is acting like an adult instead of a child.

One time, I tried to draw the analogy between room mates. If you lived with somebody that wasn't a spouse, would you expect them to thank you and praise you for doing your share of the work? It is tricky because I do appreciate what he does and I try to share that with him in a way that works for me. The problem is that it feels like no amount of thanks and praise is enough.  

I have also tried to explain that it took us a long time to dig ourselves into this hole. It is going to take a while to dig ourselves out. I need time. I need to see him doing things consistently more than for just a couple of days or weeks. It seems like he is of the mind that him doing something right now means that he is going to do it forever and it automatically erases everything else. That isn't how things work.

He actually can acknowledge that, but always says, "I'm working on it".  I do see him trying by seeking help but when push comes to shove, when he dysregulates, all of the tools he's learning and back up plans (like leaving when it happens) doesn't happen.  And after a rage, he fully acknowledges that he should have used the tools and/or left but that he is unable to see it because the rage takes him, in his words, "like an out of control freight train" down a path he is unable to see clearly from. 

It is good that he is showing some self awareness and realizes how he gets when he is in a rage. Since the tools that he has now aren't working for either of you, can the two of you try to come up with other alternatives that don't involve putting him in a position where he has to do any thinking? Would it be safe for you to demand that he leave? How would he react to you raising your voice a bit and demanding that he leave? Or, would it be better if you planned to leave or go to another room? If what you are doing now isn't working, try something else.

[an0ught]

I have also told him that I would prefer to not have the "love bombing" in exchange for the peace of knowing that when he does dysregulate, he won't put me in the eye of the storm.  He absolutely validates that for me, but only when he's not dysregulating.  He isn't at the point it seems to know it's happening until afterwards.  He's even come up with various ways for me to point it out to him when I see it, with promises to do whatever it takes to keep the storm to himself, but in the heat of it, he denies until after it's over.

It is always worth discussing things but in the end behavioral changes need work when behavior is happening.

When you are loved bombed pushing against it in that moment would be invalidating and will increase such a behavior. Validating the expression of love excessively (to match his high flying bombing altitude) and then taking the validation a level back on a medium positive level to take him down a bit. Acknowledge but don't engage too much. Won't solve the problem but with validation it is drip, drip and drip.

Another option is to validate the guilty feelings driving the love bombing when the love bombing is happening. Be careful though as the happy love facade might be "real" enough to mask those feelings and addressing guilt would be perceived as invalidating.

Last but not least would be boundaries e.g. refusing to accept big gifts or gestures. Likely there will be rage or an extinction burst. Still boundaries generally provide the most reliable relief.

It may be worth considering replacing the big love bombs with smaller acceptable expressions. Making up can be an important part even a healthy relationship. Rather than saying "no" saying what you find acceptable and apprechiate.

Addressing the love bombing is worth it. It is a good sign of your progress here that you are being concerned about excessive positive emotions. The more time our loved one is reasonably regulated the better for all concerned.

[formflier]

I have also told him that I would prefer to not have the "love bombing" in exchange for the peace of knowing that when he does dysregulate, he won't put me in the eye of the storm.

How often can he actually successfully do this... .versus how often do you end up in the eye of the storm?

[vortex of confusion]

When you are loved bombed pushing against it in that moment would be invalidating and will increase such a behavior. Validating the expression of love excessively (to match his high flying bombing altitude) and then taking the validation a level back on a medium positive level to take him down a bit. Acknowledge but don't engage too much. Won't solve the problem but with validation it is drip, drip and drip.

This reminded me of something that I have done with a little bit of success. When my husband starts in with the love bombing and telling me how great I am, I will dispassionately say something like, "What makes you say that?" Usually, his response is something along the lines of "You have to be a saint to put up with me." or something like that. It usually turns into him talking about how bad he is and how difficult it must be to put up with him. I listen and respond with something simple like, "I see." or something simple that acknowledges that I heard him but doesn't get me engaged in any kind of arguing or invalidation.

Another option is to validate the guilty feelings driving the love bombing when the love bombing is happening. Be careful though as the happy love facade might be "real" enough to mask those feelings and addressing guilt would be perceived as invalidating.

I have found that it works best to let my husband share the guilty feelings without saying much. In that moment, those feelings are very real. I am getting better at listening and acknowledging without really addressing anything. Trying to address anything or get some understanding feels like opening up a minefield. I have to be mentally prepared and on my A game to attempt that.

Last but not least would be boundaries e.g. refusing to accept big gifts or gestures. Likely there will be rage or an extinction burst. Still boundaries generally provide the most reliable relief.

How does one refuse to accept big gifts or gestures? How can one set a boundary around that without setting things too far back? I am thinking of the fact that my husband brought me home a stuffed gorilla not too long ago. In my mind, I was thinking, "This is silly and I don't really want or need a stuffed gorilla." At the same time, I was very excited that he actually thought about me for a change. There was no way that I was going to refuse that. To some, it would probably seem small and insignificant. In the context of our relationship it was HUGE.

[Michelle27]

I think I know what you are describing as my husband does something similar. He announces all of the good things he does and looks for praise. For years, he did very little if anything. Now, that he is doing stuff, he wants recognition and praise for it. I feel like he wants me to see all of this good and relax and go back to the way things were.

In my mind, he isn't doing anything that is great or special. He is doing things that are part of being a parent and part of being a household. I don't get thanked for putting the kids to bed. I don't get thanked or appreciated when I do laundry or pay the bills or any number of other things. It is difficult for me to find ways to validate an adult that is acting like an adult instead of a child.


It is good that he is showing some self awareness and realizes how he gets when he is in a rage. Since the tools that he has now aren't working for either of you, can the two of you try to come up with other alternatives that don't involve putting him in a position where he has to do any thinking? Would it be safe for you to demand that he leave? How would he react to you raising your voice a bit and demanding that he leave? Or, would it be better if you planned to leave or go to another room? If what you are doing now isn't working, try something else.

You are SO in the same place I am. I feel exactly the same way.  I didn't get praise during all the years I picked up his slack when he was "unable" to participate in parenting and household chores.  Nor did I want it... .at the time, I did what I thought I had to do as a partner.  I now think I took it too far and he got comfortable with having no responsibilities.  Now that he's working on participating in parenting and household chores, he actually expects me to be over the top grateful.  For doing what you should have done all along?  And I don't have faith that it will continue, so until then, I'm waiting for the ax to fall and I have to take over again.  Like you said, that will take time.

I absolutely understand him being unable to see clearly during a regulation.  He has asked me to tell him (and we even discussed the wording to use) by either asking him to take one of his anti anxiety medications or to leave.  It's all very rational and hope building when we have those discussions about planning ahead when he isn't dysregulating but it seems to go out the window when it happens.  He'll snap at me saying he doesn't need a pill while continuing to escalate.  If I ask him to leave, like I did 3 times on Saturday before I finally left, he refuses.  The very next day he acknowledges that he should have left but that's not good enough anymore for my own sense of peace which is why I asked him to pack a bag and move out for a week for now and we'll reevaluate at that point.  I expected having him gone and in a "being separated" status would have me very sad, but I'm not.  My overriding emotions centre around finally feeling "safe" and very proud of myself for standing up for a boundary I have had for a long time but never actually enforced.  Which also makes me wonder if I've detached so far that it doesn't even bother me that we are apart right now, and what that means.

[vortex of confusion]

You are SO in the same place I am. I feel exactly the same way.  I didn't get praise during all the years I picked up his slack when he was "unable" to participate in parenting and household chores.  Nor did I want it... .at the time, I did what I thought I had to do as a partner.  I now think I took it too far and he got comfortable with having no responsibilities.  Now that he's working on participating in parenting and household chores, he actually expects me to be over the top grateful.  For doing what you should have done all along?  And I don't have faith that it will continue, so until then, I'm waiting for the ax to fall and I have to take over again.  Like you said, that will take time.

Wow, we have very similar stories. I did the same thing as you. I think a lot of what got me into trouble is that I did have the "for now" attitude. I did all of the parenting and took up all of the slack to give my husband time and space to heal or work out whatever it is that was going on at the time. I figured that I could take up the slack until things returned to normal. Then, I could get his help and relax and recoup. I had the expectation of give and take. The problem was that I couldn't maintain that level forever and I reached my breaking point because he didn't really step up and step back into his role as a parent and partner. If anything, he stepped further back, which put more on me and I burned out. I reached out to him at one point and said I felt like I was drowning. Instead of offering me a life preserver to help me float, it feels like he threw me a brick instead.