Inability to stay in relationship

[seeking balance]

Ok - I am going to go back to you and managing your feelings of worthiness when someone becomes self-centered.  What techniques have you learned in your therapy & recovery?

Suzn is on point in that you are triggered by him suggesting that he is leaving.  Let's look at this from his lens - does he know this hurts you?  Well, he knows it can get a rise and you didn't in the moment - good job.

The other side is he may actually be bored and since it doesn't sound like you have a clear relationship, he may just be mouthing off.  I mean, I have mouthed off to friends (even friends with benefits a long time ago) when I was processing boredom.

I don't you know him or much about your relationship actually, but is it possible you might be wanting him to read your mind? Have you used DEARMAN to explain it once neither of you are triggered?

I know when my "worthiness" button is touched, I lose ability for perspective for a bit - and taking some time away helps me balance out.    I hear you that so much of your life has been dedicated to narcissists - and I am sure this is all triggering all kinds of core worthiness feelings in you.  That is ok - it is normal based on the fact he wants to leave... .  

Sorry to go on a tangent, but besides posting here - do you have any other means to get that negative energy out so you can see this a bit more clearly?  Running, boxing, yoga, crying your eyes out... .   any and all of the above?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaybeSo]

I'm not clear why you think I'm not thinking clearly? Though I may be missing something... .  

He and I have done this for 5 years. I'm not bragging, more shameful if anything... .   it's just, this is what we do.

The only difference is I'm not nearly as hooked in as I was for so long. I'm bummed but I'm doing ok, regardless of what he does. I don't feel huge negative energy, I spoke with a good friend last nite right after he left. Shed a few tears, went to sleep. I'm sad but I'm okay. It's the same ol same old.

He cannot committ. He is comfortable for about 6-9 months, then he checks out and wants other women.

He does this with me, he does it with other women.

Last time he bullied me for three weeks until I left our home and fled to my own cottage. He

threw a party in my absence the week I left. He was online dating immediately and found the

new love of his life within a few weeks. He then left that woman. But when he gets like this, he

then compares me to the the the things he liked about the other woman. When I say enough! it's hurtful and insensitive to keep insinuating he wants me to be more like her ( before it was

yet another woman)... . He then feels like he can't share with me and feels persecuted. Yes, he

knows 100 per cent what I find hurtful. There's not even a tiny bit of doubt; we've done this for

well over five years. When he gets this way, I don't just imagine bad things will happen. They

happen.

He will likely go date someone else now.

Or not, but he is once again very unhappy. When he's unhappy, whatever r/s we have is on the

chopping block. This happens like clockwork.

If I listen quietly while I'm compared to other women and validate his feelings about the list of things about me that bother him derply,  it may stop the dysregulation. Maybe. But I don't want

to listen to him talk about other women and what he misses about them and what he wishes I'd

do more of. If it's the price of admission, my answer is no. I can't do it. We had a 5 year r/s, we

were like a married couple. I helped co parent his kids. He took many trips with me and my

family. He knows me very well.

When he gets this way he treats me as though I'm the left overs he has to succumb to in the

absence of the next best thing. I'm treated "as if" I AM unworthy. I think it should be triggering.

Who wouldn't be triggered? I don't buy it at face value, I know I'm worthy of more than what he

implies but it sucks to be near someone who sees you that way. And he seems to see me as

"less than" when he's in this dark place. The whole effervescence stuff is more comparison stuff,

too. The last gal was more social and bubbly. Ok, so go be with her. I'm me.

My way of coping is to get distance from him when he is like this 'cause it sucks to be around.   I don't want it in my home and in my space. I'm glad he's at his place and he's not here. And

while he is feeling this way, I don't really want him here in my home. It's bad ju ju. I don't like

it.

[MaybeSo]

I like David Richos work on being a grown up; I see a grown up as a person who can take care of themselves, is kind and flexible and honest in relationships, is capable of grieving, can maintain meaningful long term relationships, and has realistic expectations.

[maria1]

Let me tell you A MAN celebrates his woman,  and works hard to make day to day life for her a little less crappy. Any other man is a baby looking for mommy SOB. you are just one giant nipple to these louts. And just to be fair... .   it is the same the other way around when nice guys get jacked around.

There is some real truth to this.



I feel I am an expert in dealing with narcisstic men.

My father is a nice guy, but really, pretty codependent, narcisstic, and emotionally immature. And I love him. Have idealized him for many,  many years, even as he has let me and my siblings down over and over. This has set up a pattern of being with immature men who do really hurtful stuff and then thinking if I work hard enough it will get better and just feeling like that's what I can get, these kind of men.  Always earning their love.  If I can just get it right... .   then... .   then it will be fixed and they will love me.  I know there ARE men who ARE more grown up than the men I've been around all my life.  I know there must be some grown up men out there.  I wonder what they would think of me?  Would they even like me?  My freinds tell me men look at me a lot, and that I seem to not notice it.  My supervisor said I'm the only very attractive woman she knows that seems totally UNAWARE of the admiring glances and attention I get in public from men.  I do not take it in.  She notices it, and I don't. Why? What is that?  Attention from men, some of them no doubt maybe nice men,  makes me feel uncomfortable, why is that?Because you have never, ever felt it and you don't believe you deserve it. And it might mean true intimacy, which you've also probably never known? I am talking of me because everything you have written also sounds just like me. I could be way off base so forgive me if I am



But put a man in front of me that wants to hold court, and I'm on it. He talks. I listen attentively and admiringly. [/font]  

This immature stuff from men,  and meeting their needs, this is what loving a man feels like to me. I can be fiesty and stick up for myself, but I really can adore and labor tirelessly over a man who is really just immature.  I get way too mushy and sentimental and loving with men who really aren't grown-up and can be REAL JERKS to me in many core ways.  But all of them are at times really nice to me in some significant ways, too.  This only confuses the matter for me.  

But it always ends, it's not stable, it's just like the above, they need the nipple. My dad did not really parent me, he held court and allowed me to bask in the glory of his stories, his issues, his love life, his ups and downs and his coming and goings.   It's all about HIM. Always has been. I was the pefect mirroring object for my dad.  Always have been. If I'm not, he distances himself from me.  Just like my any man I've ever dated. All discussions are 98 % about HIM.  Same with my ex.  Maybe 2 % about me.  I can be neutral, happy or sexy... .   but if I'm anything else, sad, angry, perplexed, tired... .   etc, they don't want to know me AT ALL. This is the way of my people, this, it would seem is my normal, I am used to being around and loving immature, narcisstic, men. I'm good at it. I'm not proud of it, but I will say, I am good at it.  I listen and they talk talk talk talk about themselves. What do they want, what do they need, what they are happy about, what they are upset about, what I can do to make them happy, bla bla bla bla bla.  They in turn sometimes do really nice things for me until they get distracted and then theres nothing. They are not all bad, they are just not emotinally THERE and they are very young.  And they can be really hurtful and unreliable.  How my dad looks is always such a big deal to him, cause he's so handsome. He always needs a lot of validation.  My ex does too. Argh, so much work!  I'm really getting sick of these guys.    I do wonder what it's like to relate to a grown-up man who can show up and be like, a grown up man.  What is that like?  I've never really dated a grown up man.  I've dated professional, successful men. But they aren't really grown up.  

Maybeso

I have read this thread and I got to this particular post and I got really excited. The reason I got excited is that I believe you are at a turning point in your growth. You are getting sick of listening. It worked for so long. Yes- it worked for me too and it almost still works, the only reason I realise it doesn't work is that I'm getting out there dating and opening myself up to different types of men. Guess who I keep going on dates with? Men who go on and on about themselves AND I'M BORED.

Last night I went on a date with one who did the same old stuff but kept getting distracted with me because he was attracted to me, he kept feeding me bits of attention. I could feel myself melting a little but NO MORE. I was still bored. I could see the me from a year ago. I could see the me from then carrying on seeing this guy, this charmer who had a kind of magnetism everywhere we went. Who I went for a meal with because he insisted i had to eat even though I was fine not eating, who the waiter shook hands with and the bar staff chatted with.   I'm not there yet. I should have just left but I carried on with the date. It was interesting to sit with us and see the dynamics at play.

You can change what you are attracted to. It will change, it sounds as if it already is. The more you see this pattern and the more you try and allow yourself to open up to different things and do the work you are already doing the more you will change. BUT IT TAKES TIME AND PRACTICE.

The big problem? There aren't many grown ups out there! This may take a while. But that's OK because you are enjoying the rest of your life. I got off my ex's hook when I realised I was bored with listening to him. One of the last times I saw him and asked how he was he said 'Maria, please can we not make tonight all about me?' Then didn't shut up for 2 hours.  I'm bored listening to narcissistic men. I am bored with repeating the same old patterns in my life. I can see that you are too.

Time for change. Time for a grown up in your life. Hallelujah.

[maria1]

PS forget professional and successful it means diddly squat I've decided. Happy with what they are doing and where they are in the world is what matters. Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan were professionals. Would you want a date with either of them?

[MaybeSo]

Maria, I read yours and P&Cs and any posts re: limited contact and friendship with ex. and comment on them sometimes. I've been in a similar situation, or experiment.

Boredom is what it brings up for me regarding this recent saga. And I agree with you, I see it as a good sign. I am getting to the eye roll stage with this whole dynamic, and I think it's a good sign for me, as you say. There is very little juice even in this last incident with my ex; I do not feel panicked or freaked out. Im sick of my own attraction to this kind of thing, it's not mysterious and alluring anymore. I can see my upbringing did a number on me, but at least I see it very clearly.

Today I woke up in my own Home and it's so peaceful and nice. I just love it.

If I feel sadness or regret, it's just that I am sad that kids grow up with so many confusing, mixed messages about love and you get people like me and my ex. Really nice people, lots to

offer, but just so messed up in areas of attachment. I am sad there is something called BPD and

NPD that really prevents any stable connection as it's too frightening to get close. But, as I say

to many on this site, it is what it is.

He will be fine. He will do his thing, whatever that is.

I will be fine. It is what it is.

[Maryiscontrary]

Ma'am, he sounds like an epic douche. Lol. Set mr. Batsh!t crazy free, as he cannot comprehend true value.

Really, so,e people need to be put intheir place, which is a sewer river.

[turtle]

Nothing important to add... .   since I'm not around much anymore, I just want to make sure it comes up in my "unread topics" so I won't have to search for it later. This is a good thread - one I want to keep track of.

I will say this though.  If he wants "effervescence," he should take an alka-seltzer.

I, too, am bored with the same ol' men (boys) that I've been attracted to over the years.  I'm at a place where I just can't stomach the BS. I've actually gotten up in the middle of a dinner and walked out because I was repulsed by what I was hearing.  I view this as VERY positive change - not polite, per se - but positive.  I would rather be alone than be with another man child.

turtle

[turtle]

oh... .   and one more thing.

For me, staying in a relationship with someone who is has moments of dysregulation like you've described here is just not an option. I'm not saying it's not good for you, but for me it negates/diminishes much of the work I've done on myself over the years and I'm no longer willing to take steps backwards - even if it's temporary.

Like SB said, I suppose there are people who can make these relationships work - the Staying Board seems to support this, but I often wonder how much truth there really is there.  Anyway, I'm not one of the people who can make Staying work. Realizing MY limitations has become key for me.  I'm just not willing to do it.  I don't want a life filled with the kind of BS you are describing here.  I don't want it if it happens every 6-9 days, 6-9 months, or 6-9 years. For me, the positive NEVER outweighs the negative.

But, that's just me.

turtle

[AnotherPhoenix]

I've actually gotten up in the middle of a dinner and walked out because I was repulsed by what I was hearing.  I view this as VERY positive change - not polite, per se - but positive.

Bravo for you! I wish I could have seen that! 

oh... .   and one more thing.

For me, staying in a relationship with someone who is has moments of dysregulation like you've described here is just not an option. I'm not saying it's not good for you, but for me it negates/diminishes much of the work I've done on myself over the years and I'm no longer willing to take steps backwards - even if it's temporary.

I agree that being exposed to this stuff sets many of us back and can hurt good progress. My relationship with my BPDex set me back a lot.

Like SB said, I suppose there are people who can make these relationships work - the Staying Board seems to support this, but I often wonder how much truth there really is there.  Anyway, I'm not one of the people who can make Staying work. Realizing MY limitations has become key for me.  I'm just not willing to do it.  I don't want a life filled with the kind of BS you are describing here.  I don't want it if it happens every 6-9 days, 6-9 months, or 6-9 years. For me, the positive NEVER outweighs the negative.

But, that's just me.

turtle

Me too.

Regarding staying really working, I don't know. What I figured out "working" meant for my ex, S8, and me, wasn't even close to what I wanted or thought was best for S8.

I read another post in this thread about how difficult change is. It is, on so many different levels. Not only are we going out of our comfort zone, but for many of us, change means going against what we learned through our FOO and after. Yes, our brain is changing, and that takes time. I'm so glad our brain can change!

I frequently have to remind myself how very, very difficulty change is. As was stated in that post, it involves a sense of grief, of loss. Currently, I feel myself holding on because of the fear of the loss and of the grief. I also feel anxiety about whether or not all the effort and pain I go through to make the change will make a better life for me. I have to really use my wise mind to change. I push hard just for baby steps. One thing that is helping me is that I have learned to self-soothe (I still need to practice this more) and, more recently, I have learned to "pat myself on my back" for every thing I do, even for the little things.

Here's a big hug coming through the internet.   

AnotherPheonix    

[Maryiscontrary]

Wow turtle, thank you for being so articulate. You come off far less hateful than I... .   my description for how I feel, is literally baking in the right hemisphere,  where the metaphors and explicatives reside, and not regular polite person speech.

I get really, really upset at arrogant, presumptive, entitled behavior similar to when maybe so has described. I mean, there is no SET or DEARMAN that will work on these people. The only thing you can do is cut them off, or if you must deal, planning things so that you have their proverbial cojones in a nice brass vice grip that you will tighten until they comply. That is, you either go NC, or very agressively keep the upper hand to insure compliance. It makes me I'll to thnk that one must deal with fellow flesh and blood so heavy handed, but these people work on a zero sum game. Either not play the game, of be on the positive side of zero.

[turtle]

Wow turtle, thank you for being so articulate. You come off far less hateful than I... .   my description for how I feel, is literally baking in the right hemisphere,  where the metaphors and explicatives reside, and not regular polite person speech.

I get really, really upset at arrogant, presumptive, entitled behavior similar to when maybe so has described. I mean, there is no SET or DEARMAN that will work on these people. The only thing you can do is cut them off, or if you must deal, planning things so that you have their proverbial cojones in a nice brass vice grip that you will tighten until they comply. That is, you either go NC, or very agressively keep the upper hand to insure compliance. It makes me I'll to thnk that one must deal with fellow flesh and blood so heavy handed, but these people work on a zero sum game. Either not play the game, of be on the positive side of zero.

Maryiscontrary -- TIME... .   time is what tempers the hatred.  When I first started making these changes in my life, I was so over the top about it -- heels dug in!  Remember the movie "Network?"  All those people hanging over their balconies shouting "I'M MAD AS HE! AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!"  That's how I was in the beginning -- and it wasn't pretty.  I was soo HARSH. As time goes on, the pendulum swings back and forth and eventually it settles in a more "normal" range. 

That doesn't mean I can't get my panties in a twist over bad behavior -- I CAN, and DO.  Sometimes, we are required to deal with people that can't be easily removed from our lives (like family members,) and that's where I still struggle.  However, in other situations, I have finally come to a place of calm about all of it.  I mean it really does get pretty simple with most people.  I have defined what is and isn't acceptable to me.  If I CHOOSE to put up with poor behavior, that's on ME.  I can gripe about it all I want (and trust me... .   I still do that.)  But in the end... .   if I elect to keep someone in my world who I KNOW is toxic... .   then I will get exactly what I allowed.

turtle

[Phoenix.Rising]

I can relate the boredom experienced when people with narcissistic traits go on and on about themselves, basically dominating the conversation, leaving little, if nothing for you to say.  My father is a lot like this.  What I've been finding, though, is I can speak up in the conversation... . even cut in to what he is saying if need be to get my say in.  I've found that if I'm assertive in this way he will stop what he's saying and listen. 

I think for a long time part of me felt like I did not have a voice in these situations.  I do have a voice, my feelings do matter, and I am important.  Sometimes I felt like my FOO didn't want to hear what I had to say, or maybe they were afraid to, or maybe they were just too self-absorbed to notice.  It doesn't matter.  What matters is that I get my needs met.  And if I cannot get them met in those circumstances, it is important for me to go to healthy people who do listen and care what I have to say. 

I've found that I have the power to control the amount of contact I have with people who tend to drain my energy (if I let them).  I can't cut off all contact if I need to.  I did just that with both of my parents and my sister for nearly 4 years.  They didn't understand at the time, and they probably still don't, but you know what, tough sh!t.  That was for me.

[Phoenix.Rising]

Meant to say, I CAN cut off all contact with someone if I need to, and I have!

[turtle]

Meant to say, I CAN cut off all contact with someone if I need to, and I have!

I read you loud and clear and... .   GOOD FOR YOU!

[Maryiscontrary]

What civilized, articulate souls we have on this thread. I have maybe so feels better... .  

[seeking balance]

I think for a long time part of me felt like I did not have a voice in these situations.  I do have a voice, my feelings do matter, and I am important.  Sometimes I felt like my FOO didn't want to hear what I had to say, or maybe they were afraid to, or maybe they were just too self-absorbed to notice.  It doesn't matter.  What matters is that I get my needs met.  And if I cannot get them met in those circumstances, it is important for me to go to healthy people who do listen and care what I have to say. 

I am in the same boat as you here.  I have found I still may have an attraction to this energy as it is FOO familiar, but when I recognize it... .   I step away now.  That old saying, others will treat you how you allow yourself to be treated is so true.

I've found that I have the power to control the amount of contact I have with people who tend to drain my energy

Can I get an AMEN up in here 

[sm15000]

depressed, antsy, out of sorts, unhappy at work, morose, snarky... .   and admitted last night he wants to sell his business and just travel on his motorcyle for five years, and admitted he wants to see other people 

Don't tell me. . .he's about 50 as well. . .

Middle age + narcissism = run 

[MaybeSo]

Ma'am, he sounds like an epic douche.

Hilarious.

I will say this though.  If he wants "effervescence," he should take an alka-seltzer.

Hi Turtle!  Too funny!  I managed not to tell him to "F-off" when he started in on me,  but, honestly,  it was hard not to... .   the words were right there wanting so badly to come out.

For me, staying in a relationship with someone who is has moments of dysregulation like you've described here is just not an option. I'm not saying it's not good for you, but for me it negates/diminishes much of the work I've done on myself over the years and I'm no longer willing to take steps backwards - even if it's temporary.

Yea.  I know.  Yuck. He doesn't seem to get that a lot of his behavior when he's dysregulated comes off as hurtful or odd; to him,  it all seems normal. Like there isn't anyone on the earth who wouldn't feel like he feels and tell me the things he tells me. And I'm thinking, who does this stuff?  He implied his T even told him, he needs to let me know what his needs are. Yea,  maybe, but in a way that is palatable and makes sense in context.  That is still missing, completly.

To be fair, he has been very nice and very helpful up until he went to the dark side.  Once he goes to the dark side, as usual, what it always feels like to me, is that he is a TOTALLY different person than when he was feeling better.  

I would have jumped to work some more on the Staying Board in the past; but now. eh.  I don't know.  I don't really want to work that hard anymore.  We parted as freinds, so I don't feel the need to go fix anything, really.  

As mentioned, this was of my choosing.  I know he has this handicap (illness, disorder), I knew it was just a matter of time. He's done some good work in T (at least it sounds like it when he's not dysregulated) so I suppose I drank a bit of the Koolaid again in putting a tiny bit of hope aside that maybe this aspect of his cycle would be less or different with all the good work in T and with almost a year of us going NC... .   but so far, it seems pretty much exactly the same cycle.  After more than 8 years of therapy.  But, I wasn't holding my breath.  That's for sure.

I am in the same boat as you here.  I have found I still may have an attraction to this energy as it is FOO familiar, but when I recognize it... .   I step away now.

Yea I'm drawn to this energy, too,  it's so normal for me. I think from now on I am going to be very aware and active about noticing and handling this energy with people and stepping away or asserting myself.  

I have maybe so feels better... .  

I do!  

Don't tell me. . .he's about 50 as well. . .

Middle age + narcissism = run  

Ha Ha Ha!  Yup! You got it, we are both 49 years old; he seems pretty freaked out about aging, I'm sort of taking it in stride.  

 

[turtle]

To be fair, he has been very nice and very helpful up until he went to the dark side.  Once he goes to the dark side, as usual, what it always feels like to me, is that he is a TOTALLY different person than when he was feeling better.  

Ah yes... .   "the dark side."  Once you realize that "the dark side" exists, you have to decide if you are willing to put up with it because "the dark side" WILL surface.  History proves this.  I get that "they" are one way when they are feeling better, but -- for me -- and I'm speaking for no one else here --- that "dark side" is not something I'm willing to deal with. Once a person shows me that "dark side,"  I'm OUT!

However... .   we are talking about YOU here, maybeso.  So... .   when the dust settles and he returns (as you know he will,) what then?  What are you going to do?  Repeat this pattern?  I understand if you say that yes, you will repeat the pattern.  It's ingrained in us and VERY hard to break, so I get it if you return.  We've all done it.  I'm just trying to figure out where you are.

turtle

[MaybeSo]

So... .   when the dust settles and he returns (as you know he will,) what then?  What are you going to do?  Repeat this pattern?  I understand if you say that yes, you will repeat the pattern.  It's ingrained in us and VERY hard to break, so I get it if you return.  We've all done it.  I'm just trying to figure out where you are.

This may sound awful, but... .   I don't really care what he does.  I have my own place, and I love my own place.  When he is feeling really good and is helpful and sweet, it's kind of hard to turn that down.  Having a man help you install a new remodel on a guest bathroom or hang heavy, new light fixtures or heavy pictures etc., that's valuable to me in and of itself. He's good company when he's not being a douche and he helps me with things that I'd have to pay to have done otherwise. I do of course have to pay for help sometimes anyway, which is fine, but it's easier when he visits and he likes to be helpful that way. I would never allow such an arrangement in the past, but today... .   I'm letting my narcissism out a bit.  He's a peice of work!  And if I do have him in my life in some capacity, I want to make sure I get something out of it, you know?  And this time, I have!  He has been very helpful around the house.  This imacts my life in a positive way. I have something to show for my efforts.  This is how I have been viewing it.  I don't know if that's wrong or what, bu that's how I have been framing it.  My house is really done up nice right now, in large part to his help.  So... .   when he goes to the dark side, I send him on his way and I have my own, lovely home to be peaceful in and enjoy.

When he goes to the dark side, it's not like he stays with me or like we live together and I have to just suffer through it, like before. I only see him on weekends anyway, if he's being a douche, then I take distance and he doesn't come up to my place.  I don't have to live with his negativity.  I have my own place.  

I don't want to marry him, even when he's not in his dark side.

I don't want to live with him.

I don't really want anything from him other than a bit of his company when he's in a good space, but it's not a requirement.

I just live my life regardless, I do what I like to do, and my job, and my freinds... .  

My life doesn't really pivot around him and his moods.

So, I guess I just move along. I'm not really invested in what he does or doesn't do.  I may not see him for the next 6 months, who knows?  I'm not invested or pining away about it, either way.  :)oes that make sense?

[turtle]

This may sound awful, but... .   I don't really care what he does.  

That doesn't sound awful. It sounds realistic.

So, I guess I just move along. I'm not really invested in what he does or doesn't do.  I may not see him for the next 6 months, who knows?  I'm not invested or pining away about it, either way.  Does that make sense?

yes... .   actually that makes a lot of sense to me... .   but I question the validity in it.  Invested.  Not invested.  Care. Don't care.

If this is how you truly feel... .   what value does this relationship have?  Does a heavy door installation and some help with a remodel really make up for all the BS?  Maybe it does.  But what happens if Mr. Douche returns to help you around your house and someone shows up that you are really interested in?  That may or may not happen... .   but what if it does?  Do you just summarily kick Mr. Douche to the curb and treat him with the same disrespect he's shown to you?  (I'm a fan of that on some karmic level - and I would LOVE reading about it, but I think we're supposed to be trying to be better than that - )

Just curious.

turtle

[Phoenix.Rising]

Speaking of the dark side, I know a thing or two about it, but that's another thread!  Haha.  Anyway, on my way home from work last night they played an old song on satellite radio by George Harrison called Beware of Darkness.  I thought it was apropo.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YELBLoOxfms

[turtle]

And if he returns and you "hook up" again, isn't that the whole mixed message idea?  As in... .   if you only treat me like ___ on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays --- I will still like you (if you help me remodel my house) ... .   but if you throw Friday into the mix, I won't speak to you for a month.  Exaggerated, I know... .   but you get my drift.

Isn't there a part of you that really wants to say... .   "ride off on your motorcycle with your alkaseltzer and be happy." You can let him go... .   forever... .   and he can leave you in peace.  Then you'd never have to do this again!

turtle

[maria1]

I don't want to marry him, even when he's not in his dark side.

I don't want to live with him.

I don't really want anything from him other than a bit of his company when he's in a good space, but it's not a requirement.

I just live my life regardless, I do what I like to do, and my job, and my freinds... .  

My life doesn't really pivot around him and his moods.

It's so very hard to keep them at a safe distance though isn't it? Because you open the friendly door just a little bit and they wiggle a toe in and, before you know it he's remodeling your house?

My pwBPD has an awareness of how he damages relationships and that protects our 'friendship' somewhat. I hope. I try not to let him do anything for me but that hurts him, because he wants to help me. I'm not sure we can get anything from them for us but we have to try and find something because friendship has to have a pay off that isn't just a codependency feed.

Maybe it's just gotten a little too close, for both of you?

[Maryiscontrary]

Ok, so the poor little baby is scared of aging and has a dark side. Well BOOHOO.

He is just being helpful to distract your from all the other BS he has done. Bait and switch.

I tell you what, if you would like to massage your narcissistic side here are some ideas.

Take all favors, let him pay for everything. If he is good in bed, take it all in, no pun intended.

When he starts btching, get scarce and be dismissive. Create a boundary that if he starts btching, you will change the subject and make yourself unavailable.

If he want to date... .   ... .   make him wear rubbers. LOL!  Make him wash before he is with you.

I have scored a bit high on ASPD traits, even though I have tons of empathy. it's the asperger combined with extrem defensiveness.

But, don't get me wrong, if you want a business transaction, totally structured,  I can give you a ton of advice on how to approach it like a rAtional robot.

Is this what you want to do. Because I am not sure the others can help you. But ruthless, calculating mary can help you structure this "arrangement" so that you have mostly all upside

Lol... .   so whaddya think?

[Suzn]

are you willing to risk completely being alone and rebuilding yourself without a backup relationship and not settling to achieve your goal of a stable relationship?

You say you've done this. How so? Would it be fair to say when you got bored you reached out to him on match.com? Finding your way past the boredom and being truly alone and being ok with it for it's duration is the goal. I remember telling my T I was bored, of being alone, I was only seeing her twice a month back then. Guess what I got? A standing appt once a week, to get me through the boredom. I'm not trying to convince you to end your r/s MaybeSo, that's your choice of course.

I am getting to the eye roll stage with this whole dynamic, and I think it's a good sign for me, as you say. There is very little juice even in this last incident with my ex;

This "boredom" you speak of here is completely different from experiencing being truly alone.

I do not feel panicked or freaked out.

I don't think anyone is suggesting you are freaking out or feeling panicked. What I did read repeatedly throughout your thread are the words "no one will stay" (basically) and that you were taken back to core feelings from your childhood. The worthlessness, the disappointment, etc... . Forget the BS, what about this? If you truly long for a healthy r/s working on this first will be key.

You speak of your regrets and sadness, you have much to grieve MaybeSo. My hopes for you are, not matter what your decision to continue this r/s, that you will give yourself much deserved time to grieve these past hurts. You are worth it.

[MaybeSo]

Suzn,

I have been alone most of my life.

I was alone raising my daughter from 6 to 15; I was not hooked up with anyone.

Before my marriage to daughters father, I was without a bf for about 3 years while I finished my first degree.

Last break with my bf, I left, relocated and bought my own home under my own steam; we were mostly NC for about a year.

I met him in 2006 on match.com. My daughter was getting older, and it was time for me to

venture forth and date having been alone since she was six.

I can be alone. Truly. Alone is not a problem for me. If anything, I can lean a bit reclusive. I am very comfortable being on my own. I'm not bored being alone at all. I'm an introvert, I love my

solitude.

I mentioned "panic and freaked" not in response to any comments, but as a comparison to how

different it is now as compared to 2 years ago ... .   2 years ago, I'd be panicked and freaked out.

Now, I no longer feel panicked or freaked out like I use to;  that's all I meant.

Im in agreement that grieving is important; I have grieved more in the last 5 years about FOO than I ever have in my life. I'm speaking of FOO stuff on here as I've been grieving and working

on this very deeply. I actually see this relationship as the catalyst to so much old grief from the past; its been in some ways a gift because of this, though painful. Am I all done? No, but I've

come a long way on that count. A very long way.

[MaybeSo]

Turtle, I'm in the middle of a remodel project right now; I asked him to leave. I don't like being around him when he's this way, remodel or not. I will move forward anyway.

But when he's happy, he's good company (in light doses) and he's helpful. I also am helpful to him, but, I over did my helpfulness in years past. I worked for years on his house when I lived there, and spent probably 15k on moving 3x when he would go south. This feels like I'm taking better care of myself and recouping some of my losses from before. I worked tirelessly to make his life nicer for five years, I helped raise his two kids, did a lot of remodeling and repair and design work of his house/yard. This feels like I'm getting some of that back now for me.  I like seeing him put some effort back into my place. He feels guilty about some of his behavior and helping out lately makes him feel like he's not such a jerk. He makes much more $ than I do.

Works for me! I have a habit of giving but not receiving. I've let him give this time; it feels incredibly weird as I'm not used to it, but it's been good for me.

We have no committed r/s or promises. If I meet someone else I would be honest about it. I hate dating but sooner or later I may meet someone. If he has no commitment to me, then thats the way it goes I geuss. ?

He could meet someone tomorrow! That would be more likely!

[sm15000]

Yea.  I know.  Yuck. He doesn't seem to get that a lot of his behavior when he's dysregulated comes off as hurtful or odd; to him,  it all seems normal. Like there isn't anyone on the earth who wouldn't feel like he feels and tell me the things he tells me. And I'm thinking, who does this stuff?  He implied his T even told him, he needs to let me know what his needs are. Yea,  maybe, but in a way that is palatable and makes sense in context.  That is still missing, completly

When I read what he said to you, it got my hackles straight up. . .how dare he, who does he think he is - it triggered me to the heartless, callous things my ex said to me when (although I didn't realise it at the time) he was in dysregulating mode.

With an objective head on I realise in this state they are 'feeling' these things for real but they say it in the most spiteful way to off-load. . .the boredom, the dis-satisfaction with work, and so the need for attention off other women to buzz them up. . .but they transfer it all onto you.  It's not you, it's them.  Nobody can be everything to someone, and offer a personality to fit every mood    You handled it the best way you could because it's either that or "f**k off".

I mention the 'age' thing because before I questioned the 'personality disorder' aspect of my ex, I thought he was acting out a mid-life crisis.  I maintain he was/maybe still is?  I think these psychological feelings of ageing triggered/or exasperated his disorder.  You may find there is a period of 'storm' coming. 

I could not find the quote but I think you said you were on the phone to a friend because basically it sounded like what he said still 'got to you' somewhat.  I think this is where being involved with them - on whatever level - becomes a chore, and as you say boring. . .especially if this becomes more frequent.  Whatever 'type' of r/s you have with someone - committed and monogamous, open and casual, platonic - you're entitled to respect.  To me, he's gone over the line with this.