Hi jj0804 and

That would be really disappointing, to start to have hopes for a future together, and then to feel like things kind of fell apart. I know that hurts.

How long were the two of you in a relationship, before the "big event"?

Could mean a lot of things -- probably at some level, it's about whatever is going on inside of her, and her trying to get her impossibly deep emotional needs met, while coping with wildly varying and often harmfully intense emotions.

If BPD is involved, then a key part of the acronym to remember is that it's Borderline Personality Disorder -- so the ways pwBPD try to get their needs met won't necessarily "make sense" (disordered thinking).

A big question for you would be -- no matter why she does what she does, are you OK with having that kind of behavior in your life? You're in the driver's seat for what you choose to let in.

Thanks so much for your thoughts guys - I appreciate it so much.

Yes, his actions have massively confused and hurt me. He has come in hot offering the world and begging forgiveness... then changed his mind and gaslighting me into thinking he wasn't actually offering that... so so SO many times now. Coming back and forth like the wind. Obviously I've stopped letting him come in again, but even allowing the opportunity for him to even be suggestive about it gets into my head and throws me completely off balance. So I do need to get to the point where there's no contact. It's just been baby steps to get there.

Our pattern has always been that I feel incredibly uncomfortable about leaving things in an unresolved/unpeaceful place and I make contact with him to soothe, resolve and tie it all up nicely. It seems my nervous system needs that. Especially because we live in the same community and see each other around. But once I've done that, he comes back in again... sometimes it takes him minutes, sometimes days/weeks and in the past many months and a relationship for him in between. But he always comes back. And he goes hard with the love-bombing.

I told him the other week about how anxious I was feeling about him reappearing and then disappearing again... he went through a range of reactions to that - first he tried to gaslight me into thinking he hadn't 'reappeared again'... then he was really nice about it and said he understood, and then in the same conversation thought we could maybe hang out and have coffee sometimes... and then he tried to tease me about my anxiety... which I went along with, but when I teased him back about being indecisive, he got nasty... and he sent me a meme about being a 'stage five clinger'. And when I told him I would be upset if that's what he really thought of me... he got angry... shut the conversation down.

I tried to explain to him what effect the back and forth has had on me... how it's actually taken me to a dark place and made me anxious and insecure in ways I didn't used to be. He didn't respond to that. It's obviously easier to label me an anxious, clingy, psycho ex... than to acknowledge that his actions have upset and damaged me.. as they would upset and damage anyone.

When I talked to my psych about it, I was able to see that I just keep going to him with how I feel and hoping he will suddenly get it or acknowledge it... and that's because 1 or 2 times out of 10 he WILL acknowledge it and be kind. But the other times he just ignores me or gaslights me, which makes me even more anxious. It's like a fruit machine. And that's the intermittent reinforcement that keeps me hooked into the game.

Over time I have turned from being a high-value partner who he didn't feel he deserved and had to work at to keep in his life, to a low-value partner who he can pick up and drop whenever he wants. Neither of those positions are healthy. So while I want to keep compassion and love for him, it's important to state that I really don't like the way he has treated me, and I do want to catch my heart up with my head... really hoping therapy will work, but I'm also reading articles that suggest interrupting thoughts about him with other things, and re-reading the truth of the relationship and how bad it was for me... to start re-wiring my brain.

Hi Garlic70;

As odd as it sounds, you could consider contacting a local DBT clinic, explaining your situation (that you don't have BPD but are processing the end of a relationship with a pwBPD), and asking for either an external recommendation, or if they're willing to see you as a client.

Even if your city/town/location doesn't have a DBT clinic, maybe find a larger city in your state/province, and call them up. It's possible that they could provide telehealth services (if you're OK with remote sessions).

Have you officially ended things with your current therapist yet?

Hi dalrym and

You're among friends here -- so many members have experienced the same roller coaster you were on. The disjointedness stood out to me, how after all you two went through, she could say she "didn't understand what you were talking about". I've experienced that with my H's kids' mom (she has many BPD type traits).

In a sense, even if what's going on isn't labeled or diagnosed as BPD, the real issue isn't what it's called, it's that the behaviors and actions are so difficult. Maybe that can be part of your processing -- taking a moment to figure out if you can be OK with not knowing if it was "really" BPD or not, because again, the issue isn't what it's called, it's how it affected you, and how it seems to have left you feeling so down.

That can be an important step in your grieving and healing journey: not trying to escape the pain and loss and grief and hurt, but allowing yourself to feel those feelings instead of stuffing them away. I haven't heard of any way to accelerate the process; the only way out is through the feelings.

Have you had a chance to check out some of the Lessons on Detaching From the Wounds of a Failed BPD Relationship yet? You could consider starting at "Healing, the big picture" and seeing if that resonates with you at all.

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Has she tried to contact you at all, in the last week or so?

You may have, without knowing it, hit one of the most common things in BPD/NPD relationships! My bet is almost everyone here has experienced this kind of projection. As somebody said above, accusations are confessions. It is SO HARD to wrap your brain around.

I'll give you an example that I've tried to wrap my head around. At 11am the day before going camping with my ex, on one of the two afternoons I had off during the week, I called my ex and told her I wanted to go do the grocery shopping for our camping trip. I knew she had a list of foods she liked to bring camping (it was mentioned in passing once, and I was kinda pleased with myself to for remembering it...and excited to do this for her and show her the love I had for her to remember this detail)

Her response, immediate and very angry, yelling :"you don't want to go grocery shopping! you're just trying to cover your a*s!!"

In no way, shape, or form was I trying to cover my a*s. I had no inkling or thought that I needed to cover my a*s. What had I done that required me to?

After much thought, I realized that the concept of 'covering one's a*s' was on HER mind, was part of HER thinking. Perhaps SHE would try to cover her a*s with a false offer of help or assistance when she didn't really want to do something. Or, she expected that all other people do that because of victim thinking that everyone is out to take advantage of her??

Yes, calling the person a narcissist is very, very common. I experienced that same thing with respect to her ex...he was the narcissist, he was the abuser. My therapist made it very clear to me that I'm not a narcissist, and that HER words and behavior were very consistent with someone with BPD/NPD.

I haven't been called a narcissist (yet), but I've been called emotionally abusive, a neglectful parent, etc. In general, my xwBPD likes to accuse me of all the things she has been over the years. I guess it's that whole projection thing.

I think most people here probably ask themselves if maybe they have BPD/NPD -- and the act of asking themselves that likely rules it out.

Sorry you're having to go through this.

Sounds like a tough situation, but it seems like you are doing everything you can to look out for your child. So credit to you.

I don't have advice, but I can tell you that my older child (14) already wants to spend majority time with me and minimal time with my xwBPD. Once children get into the teen years and start to develop agency and a stronger sense of self, they become more aware of the distortions, emotional instability and general insanity of living with a parent with BPD. My older child also spends a lot of time at friends' homes, so he sees what functioning parents are like and is able to make that comparison.

So as your child gets older and develops more independence and their own social network, they may realize how dysfunctional the other parent is and began to emotionally or even physically distance themselves. (I'm not sure what it's like where you live, but in my area the courts will generally respect the wishes of a child over 12 when it comes to parenting time and where they want to be.)

Thanks for sharing the reading list. I've read Raising Resilient Children and Stop Walking on Eggshells and found them quite useful. Do you think any of them would be appropriate for a 14-year-old? I've been wanting to find something my child could read but haven't had any luck so far.

Ahhh, thank you for responding. Definitely feels like projecting her internal attributes onto me. “Accusations can be confessions….” Is a  perfect way of putting it!!!

Hi Justdrive and welcome back 

My H's kids' mom has many BPD-type traits, and is married to a guy with many NPD-type traits. Mom seems to struggle with identity via getting caught up in sociopolitical "causes du jour". It is not surprising to me that a person with a weak or lacking sense of self and continuity would try to find external sources of selfhood and would sort of hop through them without a sense of "gee, but wasn't I ________ last week"? So we have walked the path you are on. Yes, identity struggles/exploration began for both of H's kids around age 11-ish. It has been difficult and has stretched H and I quite a bit, for similar reasons: from our perspectives, it appeared that the kids were parroting Mom, but they weren't going to hear that from us.

Minor children, whether they can articulate it or not, seem to experience a "life and death" feeling of dependence on parents -- this is normal. Kids may not be able to describe why they do what they do, but they are so resourceful at getting needs met in unusual ways, including the most basic needs to feel accepted and cared for and "in the tribe". So again, it's not surprising to me that your D11 is "team Mom" in terms of interests -- D11 is being resourceful about getting attention and support.

I think you're right that 11 is young and that the coming years, especially how you interact with D11 (likely more so than exactly what you say), can make a big difference in how D11 sorts out who she is, and that there may not be anything legally actionable about the situation right now, despite the effect it is having on D11.

My H's kids are now 16 and 18 but for many years (like >10) I truly thought that SD18 would always be "team Mom and Stepdad". She began hitting her limit over the last couple of years, culminating in sharing some stuff with H and I a few weeks ago that were reportable and resulted in a CPS call and investigation. She never wants to have a relationship with Stepdad again but is struggling with deeply wanting her mom to love her. SD18 is at the point that she can call Mom's household abusive, and recognize that she wants long term therapy for herself, but she isn't quite at the inflection point of putting together the pieces of "oh, I felt really alienated from my body for all those years, and it isn't necessarily because I'm [insert identity here], but maybe because of my FOO issues". SD18 is still committed to wanting to transition and take hormones, and has a SO who is also a female who wishes to transition and take hormones. Being able to speak into that situation will require more deposits into the trust bank before making the withdrawal of asking her to hear some thoughts from H and I, but we have worked hard to be nonreactive, to listen genuinely, to not take things personally, to stay calm, and to focus on problemsolving, for many years, and it has built a foundation of trust.

She's an adult so the choices are in her lap, and I don't control her choices. My hope would be that she would be willing to consider the role and contribution of FOO dynamics into her self-experience, and explore that in therapy, before making permanent choices to change her body. I wouldn't be telling her why she feels what she feels, or that I have any say over her decisions, just hoping she would be willing to hear that perspective and treat it with respect.

SD16, too, wishes to make permanent changes to her body. I am working on empathy and compassion (after all, if I had to live with Stepdad, I'd want to permanently change parts of my body, too  ) and keeping in mind that she is 16 and may change her mind many times. I work on not reacting in big ways when she says "I plan to get _______ surgery" -- trying not to feed that with attention -- but not shooting it down, arguing with her, explaining why she's wrong, etc. I try to find parallel examples of working through/with body issues that are not so third-rail (I had an eating disorder as a teen, so I try to be open about that). Ultimately, though, where H and I have had to land is that we do not have control over what the kids choose to do with their bodies, and all we can do is keep loving them as they struggle to work with their pain.

All that to say, my thoughts in regards to your questions are:


If D11's mom is like H's kids' mom, she might escalate in psychologically manipulative ways if/when status quo is threatened or if/when more 3rd parties get eyes on the situation. You do seem to have a pretty good structure in place right now, with 50/50, good relationship with D11, and therapists involved.

When I made the CPS call the other week, it did feel like "this was my one shot" -- I'd held back for a while but it finally became abundantly clear that the escalation was needed and I was kind of backed into a corner. So my thought is that sometimes, if you aren't sure about changing status quo, that can be a sign that it isn't needed yet, and when it is needed, it can be pretty clear, not ambiguous. Maybe it'd be a good exercise to get down on paper what your "lines in the sand" are, or what situations might come up that you feel you can handle via conversation between you and D11, and what situations are beyond that.

If you have/had a lawyer, consider checking in with your L about what counts as "change of circumstances" in your area.


Lots of spending time focusing on shared interests, not identities. Praising the kids for diligence, helpfulness, kindness, etc, versus praise for any kind of sociopolitical involvement. Modeling doing sacrificial things to help the community (giving time/money/items), versus superficial "help" ("I wore a bracelet", "I put a sign in the window") that costs us nothing. Non-shaming responses when the kids bring up something they don't know much about (not "how could you not know Detail about Issue X", but "that's cool you're thinking about Issue X... lots of people don't know that actually, ______").

Lots and lots of parallel discussion versus hitting the issue head-on. SD16 especially is sensitive to confrontation and just shuts down -- we have to try to approach hot button issues kind of from the side. We have really pulled back from any kind of long lecturing -- she just is gone. It has to be small doses with her.

I truly hate social media but have worked hard to not get reactive about that with the kids. SD16 especially spends a lot of time on apps (Mom bought the phone, we did not have any say) so I try to cultivate an attitude of curiosity: "So how does it work to put a video on tik tok -- what do you do first", or "Wow, you almost have X number of followers, are you going to do anything to celebrate", or "any new favorite instagram reels, I'd love to see them", or "so how do you play that game on the discord server, I have no idea how".

Keeping the kids talking about their lives and interests, whatever I think about it, has been key. I try to find ways to support both of them with their interests that I can do while keeping my integrity. SD16 has an interest that I really don't like, but part of it involves sewing, so I do feel like I can meet her there and focus on how skilled she is at sewing.

I think our ratio of non-reactive listening to laying down the law has probably been something like 50:1. Lots of deposits in the "trust and listening" bank, few withdrawals.

Keep yourself grounded in remembering what it was like to be a teen/preteen. Maybe it's different for boys, but for girls, there's a big drive to be accepted and in a peer group, so she may be picking up various interests not only due to Mom, but also due to peers. Find ways to have some neutral discussions about those things with her, maybe raising a question at the end, but not intense: "Wow, tell me more about the crystals... what do you like about them? What do people say they do? OK, so you put that one in the corner, and that one by your bed -- is that how it works? What do you hope will happen?... How do people know if it worked or not?"

Really be clear to yourself about your hill(s) to die on. For us, SD16 also went through a crystals phase, and I have friends with 12 year olds also going through that phase. We definitely let that one go, though each family is different. We did "die on a hill" with clothing twice; once, SD18 (at 15) wanted to wear just her bra down to the local skate park. That got a No, and she was so mad (obviously we were prudes who were embarrassed of bodies and trying to control her). The other time was an international trip, where we said No, you cannot bring clothing with obscene, profane, anti-religious, or military markings. That went better. When it's a real safety issue we will "die on that hill"; when it isn't, we've had to let a lot go. SD16 is currently in a "punk" phase and wears many patches with offensive phrases. We are working hard not to make conflict over that a reason she won't spend time with us. I may try the "parallel" approach of "wow, if I heard someone say All ____ are ____, that just seems like making assumptions, and I know you hate it when people make assumptions about you", but it's hard to gauge.

Truly emotionally validating your D11 will be gold, as will the counterpart of stopping being invalidating, even inadvertently. Not sure if you've seen this book yet -- The Power of Validation (for parents) by Karyn D. Hall, PhD has been helpful for real-life scenarios.

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Well, that was a lot! I should wrap this up. Feel free to click through my old posts; we've "been there done that" on the teen identity journey, too.

It sounds like D11 is cooperative about the parenting schedule (i.e., not saying things like "can't I just go back to Mom's", or threatening to walk away, etc)?