500K posts and not one happy ending

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Skip, if most of the people discussed here would not qualify for a BPD diagnosis, and the focus should pretty much exclusively be on ourselves, are there plans to change 'bpdfamily.com' to 'It's-really-Us, not-Them.com', or something similar? Could be beneficial.

lmao I've thought that too.

While I think there is a problem with laypersons diagnosing others with BPD, I'd say the majority of us have/have had partners with the actual diagnosis.  Not only that, but those of us who have had partners with the actual diagnosis are as expert on the disorder as the experts in terms of identifying it and the behaviors.  We just aren't qualified to treat it.  But we have LIVED IT.  Intimately.  A typical therapist will see x-number of patients each week, with a wide range of disorders, and they will see each of these for maybe an hour a week.  The partner of the patient will spend the vast majority of their quality time with the therapist's patient, and we KNOW a good therapist will always solicit input from the partner of the patient for this very reason.  If most of us don't know what we were talking about, then this site shouldn't exist in the first place.  We know our partners better than any therapist ever will, and we know them better than anyone else on the planet ever will.  WE KNOW.

I felt this was a very accurate reflection of REAL life. It's not all theory and university degrees. If that filled the real need for non's to understand and comprehend the disorder and pwBPD to improve and heal themselves then this website would be completely redundant. The fact is. This website is needed. These stories are real, and the information (and tools) shared here are invaluable.

Cosmonaut wrote---

Here are a few articles .  I've quoted relevant portions of results for each.  Treatment isn't a cure all, and it does take dedication and work on the part of the person with BPD, but the evidence says that it can work.  BPD was once seen as a hopeless disorder, but that is not the conventional view anymore.

=====The last 2 articles show the effectiveness of DBT, which is an excellent treatment.  The first article showing "77 percent of patients no longer meeting criteria for BPD"  is not convincing.  The sample size is very small, the time span of the study is only 6 months (symptoms can temporarily improve and then flare up later), and "no longer meeting criteria" can mean having 4 BPD symptoms instead of 5.

<br/>:)BT is a very formal and expensive treatment modality which is why it not even offered in my geographical region. When researched in depth the published studies of the "success" rate of DBT involves small groups that suffered from severe traits like suicide attempts and self-harm via cutting. The published success rates pertain to those patients not committing suicide and refraining from further self harm. While that is great for those involved and those committed to treatment and getting better, it is hardly indicative of the general BPD population and the complexity of this disorder.

There is good reason that only a relatively short time ago this disorder was considered untreatable and hopeless. That is not a good start, and while I would not want to remove hope to those partners or indeed the person suffering from BPD. The skeptic in me can see there is a lot of $$$ to be made in treating what was once untreatable. That said I do believe that taking responsibility and accountability on the part of the pwBPD can go a long way to making progress even that relativey simple step is an extremely difficult thing to accomplish.

The last 2 articles show the effectiveness of DBT, which is an excellent treatment.  The first article showing "77 percent of patients no longer meeting criteria for BPD"  is not convincing.  The sample size is very small, the time span of the study is only 6 months (symptoms can temporarily improve and then flare up later), and "no longer meeting criteria" can mean having 4 BPD symptoms instead of 5.

We're starting to get far afield here, but the point is that improvements can be made.  No one is suggesting that BPD can be cured, only that it can be improved.

Again, this quote is an ACCURATE portrayal of the studies that have shown improvement. The terms are loose, the improvement vague, it does seem like the studies which are conducted by the treatment modality specialists themselves seem a little optimistic and more than a little biased toward a positive vested outcome.

I'm sure improvements can be made but when you research the MRI studies that show physical changes in the brain of the suffer you know this is not going to be easy to reverse or even significantly improve. We all suffer limitations of the human condition, but this science is undeniable.

This thread is very refreshing in its brutal honesty... .and I would like this view to be made redundant and possibly it will with the passage of time but don't quote a few instances here and there and very specific individuals that have made it their life's work and have usually written a book (or two) as reflective of the general BPD population.

pwBPD often seem irretrievably broken by life events as a young person. This is a simple fact. Although their is a degree of genetically predisposed sensitivity, it is the great environental trauma to the soul that brings about this terrible disorder.

The truth is these relationships are very much hard work and far harder than a "normal" relationship and in many instances impossible to remain healthy. The improvements are often three steps forward and two steps back... .if not completely back to square one.

Or in the case of the posters on here... .much worse off than before they even started.

I don't like to place blame and I see my BPD relationships as a gift of sorts but the fault (if there is one) lies with the person who is responsible for the worst behaviour... .which is often terribly destructive on a scale to the depth of the disorder of that individual.

And that my friends, is the very DSM definition of BPD.

[JohnLove]

Skip, if most of the people discussed here would not qualify for a BPD diagnosis, and the focus should pretty much exclusively be on ourselves, are there plans to change 'bpdfamily.com' to 'It's-really-Us, not-Them.com', or something similar? Could be beneficial.

lmao I've thought that too.

While I think there is a problem with laypersons diagnosing others with BPD, I'd say the majority of us have/have had partners with the actual diagnosis.  Not only that, but those of us who have had partners with the actual diagnosis are as expert on the disorder as the experts in terms of identifying it and the behaviors.  We just aren't qualified to treat it.  But we have LIVED IT.  Intimately.  A typical therapist will see x-number of patients each week, with a wide range of disorders, and they will see each of these for maybe an hour a week.  The partner of the patient will spend the vast majority of their quality time with the therapist's patient, and we KNOW a good therapist will always solicit input from the partner of the patient for this very reason.  If most of us don't know what we were talking about, then this site shouldn't exist in the first place.  We know our partners better than any therapist ever will, and we know them better than anyone else on the planet ever will.  WE KNOW.

I felt this was a very accurate reflection of REAL life. It's not all theory and university degrees. If that filled the real need for non's to understand and comprehend the disorder and pwBPD to improve and heal themselves then this website would be completely redundant. The fact is. This website is needed. These stories are real, and the information (and tools) shared here are invaluable.

Cosmonaut wrote---

Here are a few articles .  I've quoted relevant portions of results for each.  Treatment isn't a cure all, and it does take dedication and work on the part of the person with BPD, but the evidence says that it can work.  BPD was once seen as a hopeless disorder, but that is not the conventional view anymore.

=====The last 2 articles show the effectiveness of DBT, which is an excellent treatment.  The first article showing "77 percent of patients no longer meeting criteria for BPD"  is not convincing.  The sample size is very small, the time span of the study is only 6 months (symptoms can temporarily improve and then flare up later), and "no longer meeting criteria" can mean having 4 BPD symptoms instead of 5.

<br/>:)BT is a very formal and expensive treatment modality which is why it not even offered in my geographical region. When researched in depth the published studies of the "success" rate of DBT involves small groups that suffered from severe traits like suicide attempts and self-harm via cutting. The published success rates pertain to those patients not committing suicide and refraining from further self harm. While that is great for those involved and those committed to treatment and getting better, it is hardly indicative of the general BPD population and the complexity of this disorder.

There is good reason that only a relatively short time ago this disorder was considered untreatable and hopeless. That is not a good start, and while I would not want to remove hope to those partners or indeed the person suffering from BPD. The skeptic in me can see there is a lot of $$$ to be made in treating what was once untreatable. That said I do believe that taking responsibility and accountability on the part of the pwBPD can go a long way to making progress even that relativey simple step is an extremely difficult thing to accomplish.

The last 2 articles show the effectiveness of DBT, which is an excellent treatment.  The first article showing "77 percent of patients no longer meeting criteria for BPD"  is not convincing.  The sample size is very small, the time span of the study is only 6 months (symptoms can temporarily improve and then flare up later), and "no longer meeting criteria" can mean having 4 BPD symptoms instead of 5.

We're starting to get far afield here, but the point is that improvements can be made.  No one is suggesting that BPD can be cured, only that it can be improved.

Again, this quote is an ACCURATE portrayal of the studies that have shown improvement. The terms are loose, the improvement vague, it does seem like the studies which are conducted by the treatment modality specialists themselves seem a little optimistic and more than a little biased toward a positive vested outcome.

I'm sure improvements can be made but when you research the MRI studies that show physical changes in the brain of the suffer you know this is not going to be easy to reverse or even significantly improve. We all suffer limitations of the human condition, but this science is undeniable.

This thread is very refreshing in its brutal honesty... .and I would like this view to be made redundant and possibly it will with the passage of time but don't quote a few instances here and there and very specific individuals that have made it their life's work and have usually written a book (or two) as reflective of the general BPD population.

pwBPD often seem irretrievably broken by life events as a young person. This is a simple fact. Although their is a degree of genetically predisposed sensitivity, it is the great environental trauma to the soul that brings about this terrible disorder.

The truth is these relationships are very much hard work and far harder than a "normal" relationship and in many instances impossible to remain healthy. The improvements are often three steps forward and two steps back... .if not completely back to square one.

Or in the case of the posters on here... .much worse off than before they even started.

I don't like to place blame and I see my BPD relationships as a gift of sorts but the fault (if there is one) lies with the person who is responsible for the worst behaviour... .which is often terribly destructive on a scale to the depth of the disorder of that individual.

And that my friends, is the very DSM definition of BPD.

[myself]

I agree with you, Turkish, this site has helped me come to many better understandings about myself, and my past, as well as the person I was recently with and the relationship we shared. Partially due to clearing away the FOG and having better personal boundaries, the r/s ended, so it hasn't lead to a happier ending as much as a less disordered one.

The PI board is kind of hit or miss. What would be welcome here would be a board where pwBPD/traits felt free enough to post their thoughts and feelings. Their experiences. Their 'side' of things. It seems they're chased away more than encouraged to participate, yet more knowledge and closure, to just mention two vital pieces of this puzzle, could possibly occur if they were included. There could even be more 'happy endings' for the pwBPD, as we could all be helping each other face the facts and heal. Together. Honesty would be a real key there. Maybe that's just a daydream though... .

I'll say that "emotional maturity" can include staying with someone you love for as long as you can, and isn't always based on our own needs, fears, or mistakes. "Common behaviors" are common behaviors yet are often dismissed under the umbrella of 'we should've known better/left sooner'. It's on Us, yes, but we are also affected by outside forces sometimes.

[Lifewriter16]

Myself said:

I'll say that "emotional maturity" can include staying with someone you love for as long as you can, and isn't always based on our own needs, fears, or mistakes.

I agree. We need to give our stayers more respect, generally. Leaving doesn't necessarily come from emotional maturity, staying doesn't necessarily come from emotional immaturity.

It seems to me that, many many leavers here would have preferred to have been able to stay with their pwBPD had that been possible. Those here, who did stay, challenge our tentatively held belief that we did the right thing and make us feel uncomfortable, totally unintentionally, of course. As leavers, we are often grieving, often angry and desperate to feel we did the right thing because, deep down, we see ourselves as the cause of our own suffering. We can't bear to accept the blame anymore than our pwBPD can. The thing is, it's not about blame. Even taking responsibility for ourselves isn't enough. The disorder is a big issue even if we can do things to ameliorate the impact of it.

We have to remember that every couples' relationship is different, because pwBPD are very different even if there are behaviours in common. I think it's time we stopped passing judgement upon each other. We are all doing our best and suffering terribly because our best doesn't seem to be enough or because we're devastated by our loss. I'd like to celebrate all those men and women who commit to change themselves so they can love their partners more effectively, whether as stayers or as leavers. Personal change is a difficult road. It is painful, long term and often unsupported therapeutically due to financial constraints.

Love

Lifewriter

[Skip]

Skip, if most of the people discussed here would not qualify for a BPD diagnosis, and the focus should pretty much exclusively be on ourselves, are there plans to change 'bpdfamily.com' to 'It's-really-Us, not-Them.com', or something similar? Could be beneficial.

We could name it "black and white".   

[Learning Fast]

My mid-20s daughter struggled who struggled with alcohol and drug addiction has been sober for three years.  She was in a dual diagnosis program which treated both the addiction and her underlying psychological issues concurrently (there is an 80% comorbidity).  Four months of 8 am-10 pm seven days a week inpatient treatment involving DBT, psychotherapy, trauma/grief, FOO and a host of others.  I recognize this is tangential from the BPD focus but the commonalities for success are:

---Commitment to a ongoing recovery program for the rest of one's life

---Highly skilled therapists and care providers

---Supportive family/peer group

---Progress measured daily with success measured in months and years

---Financial resources (sadly this is one of the chief reasons most efforts fail)


My point would be after having lived thru this entire process is that recovery CAN happen (whether it be alcohol and drug addiction or BPD)but unless it includes an incredible amount of courage, commitment and stamina on the part of the addicted/disordered individual it WON'T happen.  Even throwing this amount of effort behind recovery results in a fairly low success rate.  Additionally, my daughter only had to unwind about six to seven years of disruptive behavior habits.  Many posters on these boards have pwBPD partners who have been afflicted for decades.  My 2 cents worth for what it is worth.

[shatra]

Myself wrote---

What would be welcome here would be a board where pwBPD/traits felt free enough to post their thoughts and feelings. Their experiences. Their 'side' of things. It seems they're chased away more than encouraged to participate, yet more knowledge and closure, to just mention two vital pieces of this puzzle, could possibly occur if they were included. There could even be more 'happy endings' for the pwBPD, as we could all be helping each other face the facts and heal. Together.

---My view is that if a pwBPD is/was also involved in a relationship with a pwBPD, then they would be more welcome. Yes, the feedback from a pwBPD can give us insight. It is also important, though, for boundaries to be in place. It is similar to having alcoholics go to AA and their relatives go to Al-Anon---2 separate support systems.

JohnLove wrote---

DBT is a very formal and expensive treatment modality which is why it not even offered in my geographical region. When researched in depth the published studies of the "success" rate of DBT involves small groups that suffered from severe traits like suicide attempts and self-harm via cutting. The published success rates pertain to those patients not committing suicide and refraining from further self harm. While that is great for those involved and those committed to treatment and getting better, it is hardly indicative of the general BPD population and the complexity of this disorder.

-----True.  The DBT studies I have looked at reflect a reduction in suicidal behavior and hospitalization rates (which are very important) but not as much progress in the areas of other traits.  It's also important to look at who is measuring those traits----the pwBPD (who often splits themself as all good)? The clinician who is part of the research study, who sees the pwBPD weekly? They may not be accurate reflections of how the pwBPD is making progress at home 7 days per week. 

  Progress is possible, but it's important to keep in mind that this is a "personality disorder"---meaning it is about the person's personality, character, and enduring, chronic, long-term traits. As opposed to an acute diagnosis which is very different, and has a different future outcome.

[Mutt]

Good topic of discussion. I'm grateful that we have a support system on the air like bpdfamily. Everyone's personal story is different but my ex is not diagnosed. I was told by a family member after the break-up that she has traits of BPD.

I think that the most emotionally distressing feelings that I experienced is that a lot of people in my support system didn't want to flirt with the idea that she suffers from mental illness. Even if they did I don't think that they could connect with me or give me guidance, advice, information and the tools to turn a hopeless situation into an empowering one.

I felt hopeless talking to my T and P when it came to my ex wife because she's not diagnosed and I felt like they weren't hearing my side of the story with how I really experienced. They said its best not to diagnose her, which is true but we can look at traits if the borderline personality type. It helps that I understand BPD psychopathology and know the dynamics and tools so that I can lead and coach with my ex wife with co-parenting when she's emotionally unstable,  projects, blame shifts because she's floundering.

All of the information, support, guidance is all in one place available 24 / 7. I felt like I had nobody in real life to turn to that would hear what I had to say and give me guidance to turn things around. From my perspective, bpdfamily helped me turn my life around and my family thrives. I'll never forget all of the wonderful people here.

[Michelle27]

Good topic of discussion. I'm grateful that we have a support system on the air like bpdfamily. Everyone's personal story is different but my ex is not diagnosed. I was told by a family member after the break-up that she has traits of BPD.

I think that the most emotionally distressing feelings that I experienced is that a lot of people in my support system didn't want to flirt with the idea that she suffers from mental illness. Even if they did I don't think that they could connect with me or give me guidance, advice, information and the tools to turn a hopeless situation into an empowering one.

I felt hopeless talking to my T and P when it came to my ex wife because she's not diagnosed and I felt like they weren't hearing my side of the story with how I really experienced. They said its best not to diagnose her, which is true but we can look at traits if the borderline personality type. It helps that I understand BPD psychopathology and know the dynamics and tools with so that I can lead and coach with my ex wife with co-parenting when she's emotionally unstable,  projects, blame shifts because she's floundering.

All of the information, support, guidance is all in one place available 24 / 7. I felt like I had nobody in real life to turn to that would hear what I had to say and give me guidance to turn things around. From my perspective, bpdfamily helped me turn my life around and my family thrives. I'll never forget all of the wonderful people here.

My ex is undiagnosed too, although he was supposedly in the process of getting that going when we split and he quit when I ended things.  This place has been invaluable for me too, realizing that I'm not alone.  My own family members don't "believe" in mental illness so I don't have their support.  My healing has involved dealing with my own FOO issues and I have chosen distance from people who can't/won't be there for me whether they are family or friends.  I have so much support from a core group of amazing friends that it isn't a huge loss, but it does hurt. 

[AwakenedOne]

I bet even if there is the rare post of a success story here or somewhere else that very possibly the next day after that nice post the NON unexpectedly ends up getting cheated on or possibly instead got punched in the head and had to call the cops, was ripped off or just got abandoned. Maybe the Non wasn't able to post an update to the previous thread with something such as a "I spoke too soon" failure post. Maybe the lack of a follow-up is due to embarrassment or depression. Also a failure to update the story could be explained by understanding that the pwBPD stole the NONs computer before abandoning the relationship which left the NON without internet access. My X took the money but didn't steal the computer fortunately.

[Panda39]

I bet even if there is the rare post of a success story here or somewhere else that very possibly the next day after that nice post the NON unexpectedly ends up getting cheated on or possibly instead got punched in the head and had to call the cops, was ripped off or just got abandoned. Maybe the Non wasn't able to post an update to the previous thread with something such as a "I spoke too soon" failure post. Maybe the lack of a follow-up is due to embarrassment or depression. Also a failure to update the story could be explained by understanding that the pwBPD stole the NONs computer before abandoning the relationship which left the NON without internet access. My X took the money but didn't steal the computer fortunately.

AwakenedOne,

... .you Cynic... .

Panda39

[hopealways]

Most relationships with pwBPD do not lead to happy endings.

Those that are said to be "successful" (which are few and far between) are ones where the 'non' partner learns to not take the abuse as personally, there's very sporadic intimacy, the codependency gets twisted into an over-reliance on extra validation, etc. Not the healthiest of connections.

Yes, it's up to us to make our own best moves. The less FOG the better.

AMEN!

[JohnLove]

My mid-20s daughter struggled who struggled with alcohol and drug addiction has been sober for three years.  She was in a dual diagnosis program which treated both the addiction and her underlying psychological issues concurrently (there is an 80% comorbidity).  Four months of 8 am-10 pm seven days a week inpatient treatment involving DBT, psychotherapy, trauma/grief, FOO and a host of others.  I recognize this is tangential from the BPD focus but the commonalities for success are:

---Commitment to a ongoing recovery program for the rest of one's life

---Highly skilled therapists and care providers

---Supportive family/peer group

---Progress measured daily with success measured in months and years

---Financial resources (sadly this is one of the chief reasons most efforts fail)


My point would be after having lived thru this entire process is that recovery CAN happen (whether it be alcohol and drug addiction or BPD)but unless it includes an incredible amount of courage, commitment and stamina on the part of the addicted/disordered individual it WON'T happen.  Even throwing this amount of effort behind recovery results in a fairly low success rate.  Additionally, my daughter only had to unwind about six to seven years of disruptive behavior habits.  Many posters on these boards have pwBPD partners who have been afflicted for decades.  My 2 cents worth for what it is worth.

Hello Learning Fast, your 2cents is completely valid and I am very happy to hear your daughter is now sober (and doing well?).

The point of difference here is that drug and alcohol issues start later in life but do have underlying physiological issues. The person is using them as a form of escape.

With BPD, this psychological disorder sometimes involves self harm (with drug and alcohol abuse) but it is my experience that these things are used to self sooth an extremely serious mental disorder that usually started very early in life. BPD has it's roots often in infancy.

I wholeheartedly agree with your points that were the method to which your daughters success followed... .it seems recovering alcoholics are always recovering alcoholics.

What is interesting about BPD is my previous uBPD partner is still abusing alcohol (25+ yrs) and my current dBPDgf has abused alcohol and went to 1 seminar but is easily able to abstain from it.  

On those points my observations are:

With or without a diagnosis pwBPD like to pretend nothing is actually wrong with them.  

Highly skilled (in BPD) therapists are as rare as rocking horse poop.  

Family and peer groups are most often painted black, or simply do not understand.   :'(

It is usually seemingly impossible to measure improvement daily with BPD as just when you think they've made progress or even enjoyed a deeper understanding, it is undermined just as fast.  

And as for financial resources, every BPD I know are extremely impulsive and squander their financial resources almost to the point of ruin.    I'm guessing that's where you came in to facilitate your daughters recovery.  

Thanks for sharing your story. I want hope for myself and others, but I'm also sticking to the facts where BPD is concerned.

[Learning Fast]

JohnLove,

Agreed in that this was more of an apple to oranges instead of an apples to apples comparison.  The point that I was trying to make is that in both instances commitment, stamina, support and finances are virtually mandatory in order to achieve a positive outcome.  Sadly, even with all of these resources deployed success is elusive and variable.  I applaud any of those who are afflicted that are able to reach this milestone.

[Learning Fast]

JohnLove,

Forgot to add---congrats to your current dBPDgf on her abstinence!  Additionally, talented and experienced BPD psychs are a needle in a haystack compared to substance abuse experts.  Very unfortunate as the resources are simply not available for those afflicted with BPD.

[JohnLove]

Thanks Learning Fast. I agree. In any recovery, total dedication by the sufferer and deep support from those around them are often vital to any continued or long term success.

All the best to you and your daughter. 

[Learning Fast]

JohnLove,

Thanks and of course to you as well.

LF

[Reforming]

Worthwhile discussion with a lot of good insights.

There are some posters here who have managed to find a way to make their relationship with a BPD succeed. From what I've read it seems to have a taken a lot of work on both sides and that seems to be absolutely key. It's rare but it can happen

A relationship with someone who either has traits or a full blow personality disorder exposes our vulnerabilities in ways that are very hard to understand unless you've lived through it.

Would we tick along fine if we hadn't had a relationship with someone disordered?

Perhaps but there of plenty of dysfunctional relationships and broken marriages that don't involve people with PDs.

And I think most of us are drawn and stay in these relationships for various reasons. I know I was...

As far as treatment goes I think BPD is very hard to treat and it's even harder to find good therapists who understand how to treat it.

DBT seems to work well for managing the most severe symptoms and Schema Therapy seems to be a good tool for building on that.

But there's no miracle cure and it takes a huge amount of time and commitment and money.

In my experience deep sustained change is very very hard whether you suffer from a PD or not

I didn't discover BPD Family until after my relationship ended but it's provided a huge amount of insight and support and really helped to unravel what happened with my ex. A big part of that has been learning to examine and understand my own behaviour and personality. Not always comfortable but enormously helpful

Reforming