4.20 | Family systems--understanding the narcissistic family

[NewPhoenixRising]

2. How do we avoid getting caught up in triangulation?

B&W

I would guess by first recognizing when someone else is playing the role of Victim, Rescuer, or Persecutor.  Then using boundaries to refuse participation in the triangulation.

1. Does anyone have an elegant example of how a family with a BPD member(s) gets snarled up in triangles? (I'll post a case study later in this workshop.)

Okay, how about this ?  A BPD mother has been trying to make her husband do something he does not want to do (because BPDs need to control the people are around them).  Let's say she is trying to make him color code his files, and he just does not see it as a priority.  Since she cannot control him, this triggers her fear of abandonement (because if she cannot control, there is a risk of someone being independent, and therefore, leaving).  So she ruminates and gets very worked up and angry.  

Since none of her anger has ever been validated (because she does not live in the real world) all of that pent up anger is channeled by this rumination.  Her teenage daughter comes home and tosses her book bag on the chair by the kitchen table.  The uBPD mother explodes and rages at her daughter.  Since rage is not a reasonable response to this, the BPD mother has just become a Persecutor, and in doing so, has made her teenage daughter a Victim.  Now the search is on for the daughter to find a Rescuer.  Dad ? another sibling ?

[MyBigMouth]

2. How do we avoid getting caught up in triangulation?

B&W

I would guess by first recognizing when someone else is playing the role of Victim, Rescuer, or Persecutor.  Then using boundaries to refuse participation in the triangulation.

Recognizing it is the hard part for me because I alway's just did as I was told and thought about it later, since trying to heal and recover my own identity I can only recognize that Im feeling bad or angry at the way Im being treated.  I can sense something isn't right, mom is yelling and accusing me of not bringing something I said I was going to bring on Saturday, but it takes too long to figure it all out in my head, Im usually just playing the  rescuer I guess and just apologizing and trying to be the good girl.  Sometimes I can remember oh yeah, I said I would bring it on Saturday, and it's only thursday, don't pick a fight with me.  Then she would go on to say well how am I supposed to get everything done if no one else will do their part? what ? I just walked into the house. Like what NewPheonix Rising said, Now Im still stuck in the rescuer mode, do I tell her I'll bring it back right away or do I remind her I'll bring it on Saturday like we discussed and let her wallow in her own frustration.?  Dad would play the rescuer and usuall go out of his way to make it better.  I've been trying to detach myself and remind myself this is her hang up not mine, whatever she is mad about it's not my fault.  Still how else could I avoid this?  Back to your question black and white, is there anything else I could have done?

1. Does anyone have an elegant example of how a family with a BPD member(s) gets snarled up in triangles? (I'll post a case study later in this workshop.)

Since none of her anger has ever been validated (because she does not live in the real world) all of that pent up anger is channeled by this rumination.  Her teenage daughter comes home and tosses her book bag on the chair by the kitchen table.  The uBPD mother explodes and rages at her daughter.  Since rage is not a reasonable response to this, the BPD mother has just become a Persecutor, and in doing so, has made her teenage daughter a Victim.  Now the search is on for the daughter to find a Rescuer.  Dad ? another sibling ?

This was my life. In the middle, usually not knowing why or what but being made the outlet and the person she could just dump on whenever. I should also add that I would oblige her too, like a good little girl because I just wanted her love, and when your being yelled at and accused of not doing things correctly your not feeling loved. xoxo

[Bricolage]

Just want to express my appreciation for this topic. I keep coming back to this thread wanting to contribute, but then find myself shying away. Sometimes just reading it leaves me feeling tired and heading back to bed.

There is so much here I can relate to. I have had that "OMG! Were you part of my family too?" feeling many times. I am going to keep coming back to this thread and work through parts of it very slowly, using it as a springboard to exploration.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed. And  xoxox

Bricolage

[blackandwhite]

These are great examples!

A BPD mother has been trying to make her husband do something he does not want to do (because BPDs need to control the people are around them).  Let's say she is trying to make him color code his files, and he just does not see it as a priority.  Since she cannot control him, this triggers her fear of abandonment (because if she cannot control, there is a risk of someone being independent, and therefore, leaving).  So she ruminates and gets very worked up and angry. 

Since none of her anger has ever been validated (because she does not live in the real world) all of that pent up anger is channeled by this rumination.  Her teenage daughter comes home and tosses her book bag on the chair by the kitchen table.  The uBPD mother explodes and rages at her daughter.  Since rage is not a reasonable response to this, the BPD mother has just become a Persecutor, and in doing so, has made her teenage daughter a Victim.  Now the search is on for the daughter to find a Rescuer.  Dad ? another sibling ?

I can see lots of triangulation possibilities here. As NPR suggests, the father or sibling could come in and rescue the daughter, "Hey, give her [the daughter] a break!" Or the father or sibling could come in and rescue the MOTHER, ":)on't upset your mother/mom."

Then family roles come into play as well. Perhaps the sibling is The Good Child who tells everyone to calm down or The Caretaker who solves the problem by comforting the mother. Or The Mascot sibling could do something silly to try to distract and ease the tension.

Everyone is playing a role.

Recognizing it is the hard part for me because I always just did as I was told and thought about it later... .I can sense something isn't right, mom is yelling and accusing me of not bringing something I said I was going to bring on Saturday, but it takes too long to figure it all out in my head, I'm usually just playing the  rescuer I guess and just apologizing and trying to be the good girl... .Then she would go on to say well how am I supposed to get everything done if no one else will do their part? what  I just walked into the house... .Dad would play the rescuer and usually go out of his way to make it better.  I've been trying to detach myself and remind myself this is her hang up not mine, whatever she is mad about it's not my fault.  Still how else could I avoid this?

In this example, I see mom playing the victim and setting up MyBigMouth as the perpetrator. However, MyBigMouth is ALSO playing her family role as The Good Child or perhaps The Lost Child. As The Good or Lost Child, she's not supposed to be bad or have bad thoughts or get mad. But here is her mother, yelling at her and blaming her. Her brain fritzes... .what to do with this contradictory information? As she freezes, her mother keeps yelling and her father comes in and plays the hero, "rescuing" mom.

How does that analysis feel to you, MyBigMouth?

That moment is over, but these situations tend to replay. So you have a chance to step back, catch your breath, and plan for next time. One way to handle this is to think in advance about a clear boundary. For example, "if my mother yells at me, I will... .(leave, go to the bathroom to give myself time to think, tell her to stop and if she doesn't then leave)."

It also sounds like working on noticing your feelings earlier will help. That "freeze" feeling is itself a clue. It's like a deer in the forest startled by a noise. Is it a predator? The deer stops and hopes to blend in with the shadows, waiting it out. When you feel that prey-animal freeze, take a breath. Notice it. Maybe even give yourself a cue for it, like a word or a color. Start associating it with something that can jump in your mind quickly. (I do a lot of yoga, and I started to notice my own "freeze" reaction because I automatically began doing yogic breathing. My body sensed the anxiety before my mind did.)

Once you have it in out in your mind where you can see it, you can start to change your reactions. Eventually, as you feel more in control, you have the option of using boundaries (as above) or validation (validating your mother's FEELING of anxiety or frustration without agreeing with her), or a combination.

So to summarize:

*Look at the roles everyone is playing--this will help you see how these situations play out and plan ahead.

*In the moment, take a time out to give yourself a chance to assess your feelings. You can usually go to the bathroom or step back to the car because you "forgot something."

*Work on noticing your feelings and give yourself cues about them as you go about your day.

*Look for ways to soothe your feelings when they are anxious or panicked ("freeze". Breathing, affirmations, a soothing thought association can all help.

*Work in advance on a clear boundary and how you will maintain it.

Bricolage--I'm so glad you're getting something out of the workshop. You're smart to take things at your own pace.  xoxo

B&W

[Pilate]

I, too, am thankful that this workshop was started. I have been looking for a family systems graduate course for professional and educational reasons, but I have a strong personal interest as well. The start of this thread seemed serendipitous.

I echo Bricolage, too, that the thread is engaging and draining to read. This is a good sign for me because it means I am being challenged to think critically about our own family systems.

One recent triangulation episode occurred today. This morning, my visiting, enmeshed MIL told my non-DH that his PDsis is hurt that DH didn't say "thank you" for birthday gifts when she called to wish happy new year. When DH only responded with "okay," MIL gave a pointed, long stare. DH responded with, "You are looking at me as if you want me to say something." MIL stated, "Well, I'd like to hear you say you will do better next time and that you will consider her feelings." DH looked at his mom and said, "I'm not going to say that," and ended the conversation.

To me, my MIL is playing rescuer, my PDsil is the victim, and my DH is the persecutor.

For my DH, I think he did a good job because in years past, such a conversation could make him very unhappy, hurt, and slightly depressed. When we talked about it later, another response could be something like, "I know you want to help PDsis, Mom. If PDsis is upset with me, though, she needs to talk to me about it. I'm not going to discuss this with you."

Now that I have learned about the Karpman triangle through readings on this site as well as this workshop, I see triangulation as a common form of communication in my DH's family and in parts of mine, too. (Always easier to see it in others than in myself. )

One of the ways we are trying to avoid triangulation is not to engage in it ourselves. When my enmeshed MIL visits or calls, we do not ask about uBPDsil. If my MIL brings her up we nod, let her talk, say small conversation noises, but try to employ the "Wise Mind," so MIL can process her stuff with uBPDsil, but we do not get hooked or try to add anything that can be brought back to uBPDsil. Realizing all the time that MIL could spin that, too, but . . . meh.

Thank you for this workshop. I am very thankful for the timing of it!

Pilate

[justhere]

How do we avoid getting caught up in triangulation?

I'm sorry to say 'triangulation' has been a way of life for my family.  This is the way we relate to each other... .my younger sister talks to mom, my next sister talks to mom, then I talk to mom.  Mom then tells each of us in turn what the other sister says or maybe what she wants to tell us what the other sisters says.

So mom tells me that one of my sisters kept her bank card and now she's all upset that she has no money, so I run to the bank and drive over with money and now I'm angry at my sister. Then she tells this sister how I don't visit often enough or don't do enough for her so she gets angry at me.

Then she tells both this sister and I that my youngest sister hasn't even visited her for Christmas yet so now we are both supposed to be angry at her. Mom is in this way keeping us all separated just so she can keep control of us, so by the time she is gone there will be no family left.

This has been going on for as long as I can remember.  I have been NC with one sister and this of course was over mom too, till Christmas when she phoned me and talked to me like nothing had happened for the last 4 months but up till then mom told me almost every time she talked to me how much my sister hated me or my children.

I did tell mom that I didn't want to hear about my sister and what she thought about me but she kept sneaking in bits about her and since I'm didn't want to cause a drama like the last time I tried to stop her when she threatened she didn't want to live if I didn't talk to her, I just let it go.  Now I guess I can talk to this sister myself but, I think I would rather just go through my mom as I actually feel safer.  I can see triangulation happening constantly in my family but I don't know how to stop it and too be truthful I don't really want to talk to any of them.

justhere

[MiddleOne]

Here's a historic example of triangulation from my family. The context is that many people on Mom's side of the family are bipolar; some people on Dad's side of the family have PDs.   Bipolar Mom was unhappy with PD Dad and complained to her mother (MGrandma) and brothers (MUncles), but not to Dad.  Mom's family arranges for a rental house and helps her run away with us (3 young kids) without telling Dad!  :)ad comes home from work one day to find his family gone, no note, and no one in Mom's family will tell him where we are.  At this point in time the roles were: Dad-Persecuter, MGrandma & MUncles-Rescuers, Mom-Victim.  

Several months go by and it becomes clear Mom has serious mental health issues and can't take care of children on her own.  We move into MGrandma's house but Mom is too needy for her family to handle.  MGrandma & MUncles reveal our whereabouts to Dad without telling Mom!  :)ad starts to visit (I have no idea how Mom & Dad worked out this reconciliation), and becomes "Super Dad" on weekends.  Now the roles shift to: Mom-Persecuter, Dad-Rescuer, MGrandma & MUncles-Victims.

A year goes by, Mom & Dad fully reconcile and move to new house together with us kids.  Vicious cycle ensues whereby Dad is mean so Mom is needy.  Or was it Mom is needy so Dad is mean?  We'll never tease out cause and effect there, so let's just say they were a terrible combination. Dad continues playing Super Dad in public, and he complains bitterly about Mom to all who will listen.  :)ad's parents move from another state to be near us and help Dad.  The roles shift again:  Mom-Persecuter, PGrandparents-Rescuer, Dad-Victim.  (MGrandma passes away and MUncles promptly drop out of our lives for 20 years.)

Mom is miserable with PGrandparents living nearby, Dad being a private jerk but public angel.  Mom has several breakdowns and hospitalizations, complains to doctors, social workers, public interest lawyer etc.  Mom is discharged and moves to her FOO's house where bipolar MGrandpa resides and files for divorce (Yes, My bipolar mother divorced my PD father, not the other way around!)  The roles shift again:  PGrandparents & Dad-Persecuters, MGrandpa-Rescuer, Mom-VIctim.

Triangulation continues for years, but I'll stop here having shown how Mom and Dad played multiples roles in the drama.  

[blackandwhite]

More great triangulation examples!

Since we focused so much on this topic because triangles are such a key feature of dysfunctional families, I wanted to point out that triangulation patterns are not the only ones. Harriet Lerner (Dance of Anger, Dance of Intimacy, etc.) writes very clearly about a variety of binary patterns as well.

The distancer-pursuer, for example, is a pattern where one person distances from the other, especially in times of stress, causing the other to pursue relentlessly. Or there is the overfunctioner-underfunctioner relationship, where one person takes on the lion's share of the responsibility, so the other does not have to be bothered. There are also triangles, where a person takes their frustration with one relationship to another person, adding a third person into the original relationship and causing power, control, and communication imbalances throughout.

(Source: www.associatedcontent.com/article/1829707/learning_with_dr_harriet_lerner.html?cat=38 "Learning with Dr. Harriet Lerner: The Use of the Dance of Intimacy in Therapy." I added the bolding.)

Back to triangulation... .here is the promised case study to add to the examples already given. A psychologist who answers questions online posted this case study. There is no mention of a family member having BPD, but I think the scenario will have a ring of familiarity.

On the Family As A System and the Problem of Triangulation

Allan N. Schwartz, LCSW, Ph.D. Updated: Feb 27th 2009

(source: www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=29045&cn=51)

Following is an E. Mail Case Example that was posted February 24, 2009

"Fiance's mother from hell:"

"I'm dealing with the fallout of a mother like this.  My fiance's mother was successful in driving us apart.  When my fiance stood up to her, she spread lies about me and my family to all of his extended family in Los Angeles, convinced my fiance's family to stage an intervention on his not marrying me, and was horribly rude to my family in an irreparable way at my fiance's grandfather's memorial service. (this is in addition to calling me up the day after my fiance had said generally where and when we were to be married, and saying that she wished we would wait two years before doing so.)

Although I was technically the one that broke it off because he said he could not stand up for me against his family, I am very hurt and confused at how in the heck ?"

__________________________________

Family Systems and Triangulation:

The posting above, sent by sent by a confused and hurt young woman, is a good example of a family system operating with a dysfunctional pattern referred to as "triangulation."

First, it is important to understand the family as a "system" and what that really means.

Viewing the family as a system means that the members of the group interact with one another and those interactions are governed by certain rules and regulations. Whenever something happens to one member of the family it affects the interactions of all the family members. In addition, one set of rules that govern the interactions among members of the family system have to do with setting and maintaining boundaries. For example, there are rules governing sexual behavior in the family. Parents engage in sexual relationships to the exclusion of the children. Once adult children leave the family and find appropriate sexual partners of their own in the outside world. This is sanctioned by the entire society.

Within the family are patterns of interaction that shift and change with time. Many of these patterns (but not all) are dyadic in nature. In other words, alliances form such as a child in alliance with the mother against the father and other siblings. Another scenario is one in which the siblings ally against one or both parents. In fact, in the  history of a family, there can be many types and patterns of interaction as each challenge, change and crisis comes along.

It is always important to remember that the family system has, as one of its goals, the preservation of itself. To this end, a family will do what it can to meet with and defeat any perceived threats to its existence. At the very same time, a healthy family system is flexible enough to admit new members to its circle and to allow for and adjust to changing circumstances, such as meeting each stage of the children growing up towards adulthood. Some of these circumstances include moving from the nursery to the nursery and then public school. Later, there are movements towards the recognition of the changing status of the children such as rituals around reaching adolescence, High School graduation and leaving home either for job training or college education. Always, the healthy family recognizes and encourages, in gradual and appropriate ways, the movement of the children towards adulthood and emancipation.

However, if the family system is dysfunctional and one or more of its members is not able to tolerate change and emancipation trouble can loom either ahead or all along the way. Partly, this is due to the fact that change and growth are viewed as threats that must be stopped. Change, in many circumstances, is resisted because it provokes enormous anxiety. Sometimes, in the case of the dysfunctional family, threat is dealt with through "triangulation."

Triangulation means that a third person either within the family or someone from outside, is brought in and selected as a way to protect the integrity of the family by ending any perceived threat to the system. Part of the way triangulation works is that it occurs without any direct verbal communication between the threatened member or members and the individual viewed as posing the threat.

This is what happened in the case sited above in the E. Mail.

Explanation of the case example:

The young woman complains that her fiance's mother spread lies about her and her family after he asserted himself with his mother, presumably in protecting his girlfriend and soon to be wife. Obviously, the young man's mother objected to the wedding. Her objections were so strong that she called for an extended family meeting with the purpose of stopping the marriage from moving ahead. Tis family meeting, referred to as "an intervention" was successful in causing the young man to decide that he "could not stand up to his family," and the engagement was terminated. How could this happen?

Discussion of the case:

For some unknown reason, the mother viewed her son's wedding engagement as a threat. There is a lot we do not know about the family or this mother, making it more difficult to reach solid conclusions but it is possible to make some educated guesses.

Educated guess One:

This mother clearly viewed her son's engagement and impending marriage as a threat to her authority and to the integrity of the family. Recall from the E. Mail that this mother demanded that the wedding be postponed for two years. In addition, this mother decided when and where the wedding would take place which she communicated to this young woman. In addition, she viewed the threat as so powerful that she and her family behaved in ways that were quite rude to this young woman's family at a funeral. I think you will agree that this type of behavior is harsh. It is also extremely meddling.

Educated guess Two:

For a son to cave in to the demands of his mother and extended family in this day and age indicates that there is something not right going on with this young man. Why? Now more than ever, it is possible for young people to make decisions whether their families like it or not. As a result, the son's decision to "not stand up to his family" indicates that, emotionally, he seems to not have achieved real emancipation from a psychological point of view. Gaining a real sense of individuation and autonomy means, among many other things, that an individual feels self confident and strong in knowing who they are, what they want, what they want to do and knowing or considering the possible consequences of what they do.

It seems that this young woman was "triangulated" or selected as a threat, possibly, to the authority of this mother over her son. It is speculative but within believability to guess that mother and son has a strong dyadic alliance within the family for a long time. I think it interesting that the young female writer says nothing about her boyfriend's father. We cannot know why and the E. Mail is very brief.

In effect, the mother succeeded in terminating the engagement between her son and the young woman. Thereby, she protected her relationship with her son, kept him within the family and prevented, at least for now, his continued growth and development. She did this by portraying the young woman and her family as damaged or dangerous in certain ways and by enlisting the support of the entire extended family against the marriage. Prior to this set of unfortunate circumstances, it is possible to speculate that she succeeded in keeping her son dependent and somewhat "undifferentiated or unindividuated from both herself and the family. Given his lack of psychological separateness, he could not rebel and marry the woman of his choice.

If I am correct about this explanation it is better, in the long run, for this young woman to have stopped the engagement. The reason is that this young man might never find it within his psychological means to separate from his mother. Add to that, if he is able to summon psychological energy to marry this young woman, he might never have the will to keep his mother from meddling in their marriage with the result that the hypothetical marriage could end up in divorce. At least, that is the way I see it based on the little we know.

Allan N. Schwartz, PhD

[MyBigMouth]

Well there is definately the trianglulation pattern going on in my family.  I see my father and mother switch roles, but usually my father will be the fixer and my mother is the one telling everyone what to do.  When I stand up for myself Im then the bad person, when she is mad at my dad he is then the bad person and Im supposed to sympathize with her.  So the question is still how to avoid the triangulation, the only way I have found is not to play the game, to take myself out, but then that still pursues the triangulation because then she just spouts bad things about me and tries to get my dad to think Im the worst adult child ever. 

There is very little honest communication in my family, unless you relentlessly pursue the with rightouseness the honest truth of the situation, wich is still part of the triangle, so I don't see how to avoid being in the triangle.

[NewPhoenixRising]

The distancer-pursuer, for example, is a pattern where one person distances from the other, especially in times of stress, causing the other to pursue relentlessly. Or there is the overfunctioner-underfunctioner relationship, where one person takes on the lion's share of the responsibility, so the other does not have to be bothered.

I have been on both ends of both of these dynamics in 'romantic' relationships.  I guess because I came from such a dysfunctional family dynamic (which included both of these and lots of triangulation), I experimented with about as many other unhealthy dynamics as there were.  I wanted so much to have a good and close relationship, I tried everything I could try.  However, since I could not be truly intimate in truly being emotionally honest with my gfs, I was not able to reach a healthy balance.  Now I feel I have a much better shot at it.  

[boarderchic]

*skewed responsibility--children meet parents' needs instead of the other way around. Children are parentified.

This feature was definitely present in my family.  From a young age I was parentified and expected to mother my mother.  I cannot remember ever receiving comfort or mothering from her.  As a result of this parentification, I learned:

1.  I was responsible for mom's mental health.  

2.  I was obligated to provide comfort on demand.  

3.  Any rejection of my duty to mother my mother was selfish and cold-hearted.  

4.  Having my own needs was selfish and cold-hearted.  I was to think of mother and only mother.  

5.  Being a good person means taking abuse and any rejection of abusive behavior is selfish and cold-hearted.  I was wrong to hurt my abuser by not allowing her the opoprtunity to treat me badly whenever she needed the opportunity to vent her rage and frustration with life.  It was my job to be her whipping post whenever she needed me to be and to not do so means I'm a terrible person.  

6.  Being my own person was unacceptable.  I was not to have a personality beyond a drive to fill my mother's endless needs.  I was not to have boundaries as mother needed to engulf me lest she feel abadoned and rejected.  I was to allow that and anything less was cold and selfish, and made me a terrible person.  

7.  I was not entitled to a life of my own.  My life belonged to my mother.  

*reactive and reflective--"rather than act on their own feelings in a proactive way" (better not to have feelings that cannot be expressed or validated), "children wait to see what others expect or need and then react to those expectations." Children learn not to have needs or to expect needs to be met.

I certainly learned not to have needs or expect them to be met, and I learned not to have feelings.  It has taken me a long time to really be able to identify the range of emotions I tried so hard to suppress as a child.  This suppression served me well as a child and helped me escape from my dysfunctional family environment, but to become truly functional and healthy I had to re-learn how to identify my feelings and even allow myself to feel them.

I was also pretty much a doormat for a long time because I simply could not put any importance on my own needs.  If someone else had a need, it was automatically and subconsciously deemed more important than any need of mine.  I was often angry and resentful after doing so, yet also couldn't bring myself to assert myself and stand up for my needs because I thought I was a selfish and bad person if I did.  It took a lot of work to become more assertive and realize that no one (except my mother) would hate me or think I was a bad person if I had needs, even if my needs conflicted with theirs.  Conflict didn't have to mean raging argument.  Compromises could be reached to accomodate everyone and I didn't always have to bend over backwards and bury my needs to maintain relationships (work, friends, romantic... .relationships of all types).  

*problems with intimacy--children unlearn trust. Although their needs may have been met as infants and toddlers, as they develop and their needs are more complex, the family system buckles. Children learn not to trust their caregivers and, by extension, others.

Although seemingly confident, I was really extremely insecure in my relationships.  I simply seemed confident because I could successfully pretend not to care, a defense mechanism that helped me survive living with my raging mother.    

Overtly narcissistic families are the classic dysfunctional families--easy to recognize, for a therapist at least, if not the individual. The authors point out that even obvious dysfunction is often repressed or denied by those within the family system, noting "the patient who can readily identify the reality of his or her upbringing is the exception, not the rule." In these families, there is often physical abuse, sexual abuse, severe emotional abuse, and/or neglect.

It took me a long time to recognize the full scope of my family's dysfunction.  It was easy for me to recognize my mother's raging, insults, criticisms, and intentional humiliations as abuse.  It was obvious to me that screaming vile names at your daughter was abusive.  It was obvious that chasing me around with a hammer was abusive.  It was not so obvious that it was abusive to make me feel responsible for my mother.  After all, society itself tells us that children should be responsible for their parents, and honor them no matter what.  So when she told me I was a bad person for not bowing to her every demand, it was an easy message to internalize even though on the surface I rejected it.  I knew intellectually she was wrong.  But it took a long time to change the internalized message or even recognize that I had internalized these messages.  Actually, the recognition that my self-esteem was incredibly low and I was a doormat, for instance, was harder than actually changing those things.  I had told myself my mother was wrong to say I was a bad person and thought my self-esteem and confidence hadn't suffered as a result of her constant barage of criticism.  But in reality, I had internalized the message that I was a bad person at the same time I was telling myself she was wrong, and until I accepted that I was a doormat.  Therapy helped a lot as did these boards, because it opened my eyes to the full scope of the abuse and let me recognize it, the first step to fixing it.  

Covertly narcissistic families are more subtle, harder for the therapist--and of course the family member--to recognize. The family may appear "normal," but the "needs of the parents were the focus of the family, and that the children were in some way expected to meet those needs." In these families, there is often emotional abuse and neglect; one sibling may be strongly favored, or a parent may draw all attention to him or herself or expect caretaking from a child or children from a young age. Emotional incest may be an issue.

My family was covertly narcissistic at first, but my mother became less and less capable of hiding her dysfunction over the years.  It is now at the point that she has been banned from several local stores due to her behavior.  But despite how normal we appeared for a long time when I was a child, I realize now that many people noticed something was wrong.  They just couldn't put their finger on what it was.  But somehow my mother's dysfunction was transmitted to them and they felt it.  

[methinkso]

I'm wondering, and B&W and others, I hope you will chime in on this.

Just how much does abuse of power play into the triangulation and how deeply can it run?

One of the numerous triangulations that have gone on, and still go on in my Foo was that momster parentified me but WHILE being a controlling and 'militant' mother (queen). An example for me is that I'd have established plans to go out on a particular evening in my late teens. Momster would brush past ordering me to "Stay home and watch the kids". No discussion, total compliance on my part. Aka my needs, wants and humility did not exist. Not much good for self-esteem I'd guess.

Also, not that anyone has made an issue of this on this thread, but this same triangulation (power) is what feeds into and allows emotional and sexual abuse within the nuclear family, IMO. How many have heard professionals state that the mother is never unaware that a D is being sexually abused by the father? I've heard many. I know that my father knew momster was emotionally abusing me and his quietness granted her permission. This alone could open up more cans of worms. In that scenario there seems to have been no rescuer.

I think that there is never a clean cut triangulation. I think that it gets messy and complex depending also on how many family member's are involved.

I hope the issue of power in triangulating will be probed.

[Cordelia]

So how do people avoid triangulation?  In my family, this happened all the time - if me or my sister misbehaved, my mom used that as a weapon against dad, my mom has said that she saw me as a representative of her mother, as well as, at times, of my dad, and fought out those conflicts in her relationship with me, and she would also tell us, through direct instruction and example, that dad was not to be trusted, and to live in fear of him, that he was unpredictable, judgmental, and potentially violent (none of this was true - it may well have been true of her father, though).  

Since adulthood, my strategy has been to avoid talking about my sister or father with mom, and if she complains about their behavior, to say that she should talk to them about her feelings, not me.  I have also rejected her attempts to get my advice on her relationship with potential love interests, saying I don't have specific advice since I don't know the situation and she surely knows better than I do what the best course of action is.  At first, I gave her innocuous information about my in-laws (i.e., grandma is sometimes forgetful, a new college grad seems unsure what to do with his life, etc.) but have started shutting down those conversations as well, for fear that they will give her more material for manipulation.  All of this shutting down leaves us with very little to say, naturally!  I'm not really sure how to deal with it other than not to respond, and drop with subject, with dead silence if necessary.  With the result that our relationship consists of a symbolic call (which means, I haven't cut you off, we still have a relationship) but no substance, just her complaining about how others mistreat her and silence on my part, padded with her false double-edged happiness for my "perfect life."  It's pretty bleak.

[methinkso]

Hit post too quickly.

Triangulation/power would be a 'must' in a narcissistic family since narcissists operate by having power/control. An interesting statement I once read is that the narcissist demands other's to 'obey'.

[MyBigMouth]

author=methinkso link=topic=108970.msg1074992#msg1074992 date=1262634753]Also, not that anyone has made an issue of this on this thread, but this same triangulation (power) is what feeds into and allows emotional and sexual abuse within the nuclear family, IMO. How many have heard professionals state that the mother is never unaware that a D is being sexually abused by the father? I've heard many.

Being the mother of a children who were sexually abused I would have to disagree.  I knew that he was emotionally abusive, I would plead with my daughter just do the dishes or he will get mad. I thought he was having an affair. He would leave and work in another state for a week, etc.  He was abusive verbally and I would run after trying to make it all better. It was because the kids didn't do enough chores, etc. I was running in circles and he knew that and he kept the facade going then once in a while he would be nice and help out and I thought wow ok we are making progress. The times he said I'll go to the grocery store you stay here I'll bring (eldest daughter) and that way you can stay and I can have help. It sounded harmless and I thought he was actually listening to my cries for help.  He was molesting her on those trips. I never had one red flag, other than his behavior was weird.  His nice, seemingly understanding persona also filtered to my other kids. I see now his manipulation and his way's of keeping me from seeing what was really going on. Now anything strange or out of the ordinary is a red flag but I still get manipulated by people very easily and it feels like crap. I believe I am not in tune with these things because of the lack of trust for my fear, anger, etc.  So in essence yes I believe the whole triangulation does lend itself to abuse of all sort, however I have to disagree with your thinking that the other person involved see's everything as it is. I do know because he told the DA that I knew that he was doing it, wich he may actually think I did know and somewhere in his messed up head he thought that gave him permission, who knows if he was truthful in that statement or not. From the bottom of my heart I had no idea that was what was going on, I thought he was abusive though and I wish I had the gut's to get out of there sooner.

Being the child of a uBPDm I do know for a fact that my father saw and heard the mean things she did and he chose to ignore it.

[MyBigMouth]

Since adulthood, my strategy has been to avoid talking about my sister or father with mom, and if she complains about their behavior, to say that she should talk to them about her feelings, not me.  I have also rejected her attempts to get my advice on her relationship with potential love interests, saying I don't have specific advice since I don't know the situation and she surely knows better than I do what the best course of action is.  At first, I gave her innocuous information about my in-laws (i.e., grandma is sometimes forgetful, a new college grad seems unsure what to do with his life, etc.) but have started shutting down those conversations as well, for fear that they will give her more material for manipulation.  All of this shutting down leaves us with very little to say, naturally!  I'm not really sure how to deal with it other than not to respond, and drop with subject, with dead silence if necessary.  With the result that our relationship consists of a symbolic call (which means, I haven't cut you off, we still have a relationship) but no substance, just her complaining about how others mistreat her and silence on my part

This is exactly what I have done, but everytime I want to make conversation and I give in and let tidbit's out, she manipulates it. Sarcasm or tone of voice inuendo suggesting I dont know what Im talking about, duh how stupid of me?  I want to get out of this invisible child role, and stand on my own two feet in front of her not just when she isn't around.  It's hard to sit without having anything to say! It's hard to hear her complain about this or that and not say something! It leads to a very uneasy feeling in my stomache and anxiety wether I stick to my guns and deflect like you suggested with directing the responsibility back to her or just have no opinion. The anxiety is higher than I can tolerate and I then get flashbacks of how stupid she makes me out to be. If Im quite Im stupid, if I have an opinion it's stupid. It's a no wind situation and the triangle continues.

[NewPhoenixRising]

I think that there is never a clean cut triangulation. I think that it gets messy and complex depending also on how many family member's are involved.

I agree with this.  I think often the waters become murky when there are multiple family members involved, complicated alliances, and such.

One Christmas, a very infamous one in our family, my sister and I teamed up against Mom and Dad.  It all started with Sister trying to clear off the coffee table, so there was one surface in the house that did not have a mess of papers and miscellaneous junk on it.  Mother would not allow her to do it.  It escalated and Sister was yelling at both Mom and enDad  that 'things had happened', that our family was dysfunctional and parents played an integral part.  Momster was 'fighting back' and I stood up for sister.  enDad backed momster.  Momster and sis began pushing each other (the only time I remember the fam getting physical like that).  I yelled in support of sister, but did not take part in the physical stuff.  Brother was having his own meltdown just wanting us all to stop.  This led to an alliance between sister and I against Mother and enDad.  Although she was still looked on as the main Persecutor, a fissure had formed in the static triangulation where it had been Sister-Persecutor, Mother-Victim, Dad-Rescuer.  I think Brother and I were co-Rescuers, although much lesser than enDad, for Mom before this event.  Before this, Sister did not have a Rescuer on her private phone calls with mother, when I think they were both Persecuting each other.

[blackandwhite]

Boarderchic, thank you for sharing your responses. Really interesting. These points struck me especially as among the common "lessons" of the narcissistic family:

1.  I was responsible for mom's mental health. 

2.  I was obligated to provide comfort on demand. 

3.  Any rejection of my duty to mother my mother was selfish and cold-hearted. 

4.  Having my own needs was selfish and cold-hearted.  I was to think of mother and only mother. 

5.  Being a good person means taking abuse and any rejection of abusive behavior is selfish and cold-hearted.  I was wrong to hurt my abuser by not allowing her the opportunity to treat me badly whenever she needed the opportunity to vent her rage and frustration with life.  It was my job to be her whipping post whenever she needed me to be and to not do so means I'm a terrible person. 

6.  Being my own person was unacceptable.  I was not to have a personality beyond a drive to fill my mother's endless needs.  I was not to have boundaries as mother needed to engulf me lest she feel abandoned and rejected.  I was to allow that and anything less was cold and selfish, and made me a terrible person. 

7.  I was not entitled to a life of my own.  My life belonged to my mother.

Methinkso, power is absolutely a critical part of the family dynamics. You gave an example:

An example for me is that I'd have established plans to go out on a particular evening in my late teens. Momster would brush past ordering me to "Stay home and watch the kids". No discussion, total compliance on my part. Aka my needs, wants and humility did not exist. Not much good for self-esteem I'd guess.

The example doesn't seem to be so much about triangulation as about domination. Your mother wanted you to know that you had no rights. Two quotes from The Narcissistic Family (bolding mine):

Adults raised in narcissistic families do not know that they can say no--that they have a right to limit what they will do for others and that they do not have to be physically and emotionally accessible to anyone at any time. In their families of origin, they may not have had the right to say no, or to discriminate between reasonable and unreasonable requests.

Children in narcissistic families do not learn how to set boundaries, because it is not in the parents' best interests to teach them: the children might use that skill to set boundaries with them!

B&W

[blackandwhite]

There aren't any easy answers with all of this.

Salome pointed out the strategy of refusing to carry information with a redirect:

Since adulthood, my strategy has been to avoid talking about my sister or father with mom, and if she complains about their behavior, to say that she should talk to them about her feelings, not me.

You do have to be very firm and consistent to make this work, but eventually, in my experience, the "let's complain about so and so" (and imagine him/her as the root of all evil) version of triangulation can fade away.

A useful tool when you are being verbally attacked (but being made into a persecutor) is found a TOOLS: Stop accusations and blaming.

B&W

[Cordelia]

Wow, that workshop on stopping accusations and blaming was helpful!  The idea that when someone accuses you of feeling a certain way or being motivated by certain things that you aren't it's a lie told about you to you, and that it's a form of abuse that should not be tolerated... .wow.  This was practically a way of life in my family. 

Giving me lots to think about, as usual, blackandwhite!  Thank you!

[MyBigMouth]

So I skimmed through the workshop on stopping accusations and blaming, so is there a way to end the triangulation by simply saying stop. Triangulation comes in all forms and it is sometimes silent and you have no idea what is going on, but when we do see the pattern emerging the actual triangulation in itself is a form of abuse so would saying stop your putting me in the persecutor role and actually calling it what it is help the BPD see that they are using us as a pawn?  Mabe Im taking it too literally.

[blackandwhite]

Triangulation comes in all forms and it is sometimes silent and you have no idea what is going on, but when we do see the pattern emerging the actual triangulation in itself is a form of abuse

Yes!

My reading of it is by recognizing unfounded accusations and blaming and calmly saying "stop" and naming what's going on ("stop the accusations and blaming", you are stepping off the triangle. You're creating a clear boundary. The other players may perceive your action as persecuting, but it isn't. You're calm. You're simply stating a boundary and putting an end to abuse.

so would saying stop your putting me in the persecutor role and actually calling it what it is help the BPD see that they are using us as a pawn?  Mabe Im taking it too literally.

I think these things have to stay pretty simple to work in these situations, so saying "you're putting me in the persecutor role"--though TRUE!--would probably muddy the waters. You can think it, to help you recognize what's going on, but keep your words to "stop" and "stop the accusations and blaming." Also be prepared for how to enforce the boundary once you set it. If accusations continue, you will probably have to take a time out and leave the situation.

The critical thing is that you see it, you call an end to the behavior, and over time, the behavior is likely to diminish. That's my take, at any rate... .

B&W

[blackandwhite]

Thank you again to everyone who participated in this workshop. Your questions, stories, and insights have been terrific. Before we wrap up this phase, I wanted to be sure to include information on recovery from the Narcissistic Family, as outlined in the book by that title referenced throughout this thread.

Five Stages of Recovery from the Narcissistic Family:

1. Revisiting--facing the reality of your childhood

2. Mourning the loss of the fantasy--recognizing that you will never get what you need from your family and grieve that loss

3. Recognition--naming and validating the strategies the child used to survive, but recognizing the strategies may not be helping (and my be hurting) the adult

4. Evaluation--assessing the current situation and deciding what you want to keep and what you want to change

5. Responsibility for change--accepting the reality and working toward change

These stages are similar in general concept to those provided in our Survivors' Guide in the right panel of Coping and Healing in a Family with a BPD Parent, Sibling, or Inlaw. The Lessons there offer additional tools to work through this process.

The problem was a system that served the needs of the most powerful family members at the expense of the least powerful. The solution, however, is individual--it's about each of us.

The key ideas in getting past our narcissistic families of origin are that recovery:

*is a process

*is difficult but possible

*is within the control of each of us

Note: If you are questioning whether you are currently in an abusive relationship, review Safety First.

[blackandwhite]

Here is the famous "wolf pack" post with another way of describing a dysfunctional family system and the role of the scapegoat in it.

This was written by StillStanding:

One of the principles of systems is that every system is uniquely designed to do what it does and that includes the social structure of the BPD/NPD.  The only way that a system in which one member makes their needs paramount can be maintained is if the other members subordinate their needs to the dominate member. 

One of the things that I have noticed is that whether we are talking NPD/BPD, alcoholic/drug addict, or nasty turd, the social system that maintains the dominant or privileged position of the main player is the system that is termed pack structure.  That is to say that the pack structure normally expressed in the canine is the same structure we see in what we choose to term the "dysfunctional family." 

In pack organization there is one individual whose needs are dominant and who reigns supreme.  There is not a hierarchy.  It is ME and everybody else.  The only way this structure can be maintained is if other members of the structure subordinate their needs to the dominant member (called the alpha in the canine pack).  This is why BPDs and nonBPDs have to hook up together. Ever see a canine pack in action?  Talk about walking on eggshells.  It is the duty and responsibility of the non-dominant members (beta) to please and appease the alpha.

If we could graph this you would see the BPD as at one level and all of the other members of the social system at a lower level.   Interactions would be from the BPD to all other members and interactions between the other members would be controlled or eliminated making the BPD (alpha) the dominate member of the social system. 

Pack structure is the perfect system for maintaining control and blind obedience and fosters dependency and lack of initiative.  Sounds like my family.  Military and paramilitary organizations are set up this way because it serves their purpose. 

In the pack structure it is the alpha's perfect right to attack any one for any reason or for no reason.  Challenges to the alpha are rare because the alpha has random displays of aggression (often pseudo aggression to maintain control) and there is no coalition formation.  One of the ways coalition formation is prevented is by the process someone else has identified as "triangulation."   If alpha is angered at beta1 it just might attack beta2 and beta2 will nail beta1 with a thanks a lot, see what you did.  This is a much more effective method of control, because of the "guilt factor."  True terrorists understand this.  Someone crosses you it is much more effective to punish some innocent than the true perpetrator then the entire pack turns on the guilty party.  This process serves to limit challenges to the dominant member as the risk is too great and you can count on other members standing with the dominant member against you.

In the canine pack one member is often chosen to be the buffer or (mixing animal metaphors I realize) the scapegoat.  This member is termed the omega.  The omega is the "bad child" that is blamed for all that goes wrong.  This is a very important role in the pack and serves to reduce over all conflict in the social system.  I'm sure that many BPD families (packs) have their omegas. 

The point of all this is that each of us has existed in an identifiable and although screwed up social system from the stand point of individual growth and development, one that obviously fits the needs of the BPD/NPD (alpha).  The alpha will do anything to maintain that system.  Including feigning injury or helplessness to regain position and support from the other members of the social system.

Another principle of systems is that they seek to maintain themselves.  So when one of the members tries to break out of role there will be tremendous pressure put on that individual to return to role.  That is why some Ts will require or urge individuals to reduce or eliminate family contact as they work on personal issues.

Don't know if anyone else finds this interesting but I find it fascinating that the structure that the BPD creates is the pack structure, the perfect one for control and obedience, designed to eliminate individuation and personal growth.

I think it is important to see this behavior in a systems context.  It also explains why there are so many similarities in our experiences.  Same system, same outcomes.   

[picturelady]

Many of us who have lived longterm with someone with narcissistic behaviors struggle with some basic issues regarding our personal safety.  We are so used to the theatrics, threats, stalking, etc., that we are the proverbial frog in the pan of hot water.  We tolerate ongoing threats to our own safety, even long after we have left the relationship. We even tell others (including attorneys, guardians ad litem, etc.) that "something bad is going to happen because this situation is out of control," but then we are afraid to act on our own behalf.  This is especially true if there are children involved and we cannot go "no contact" with our ex. 

Is anyone aware of an article re. when to create a safety plan?  I know there are some articles on domestic violence and how to create safety plans.  But I am talking about more covert emotional abuse which is escalating, and the individual has become desensitized and so is at further risk.  I would like to see an article addressing "When to Call the Police."  I have a sister who is divorced from a narcissist, and he has dogged her in court for well over a decade.  He is very abusive towards her and escalating - but he always stops short of doing anything which could be proved.  Recently he insisted on having his parenting time late at night with his son (age 15), after his son's soccer game.  He planned to bring the boy home at 1am.  My sister refused, so this man blocked her car with his.  When traffic backed up behind him he had to move - so he followed her all the way to her house, his bumper nearly touching hers the entire way.  When she got home she put the garage door up and quickly got in the house with her son.  Her ex began calling her home phone and cell phone repeatedly (he sometimes does this for hours.) 

Sorry if this is a confusing post - I'm not really sure how to even articulate this question.  My FOO has a pattern of getting into abusive relationsips - I am well on the way out of mine, but I fear for my sister and her son.  I know it would've helped me long ago to read an article instructing me on when to call the police, or on what behaviors (BEYOND OBVIOUS PHYSICAL ABUSE)never to tolerate, etc.

Thanks for any help,

PictureLADY

[Telios]

This is an interesting thread for me.

The first thing I thought about when the phrase Narcissistic family came up was that I have thought within the last few years that my FOO was like this.

I was thinking they were narcissistic because they always acted on the outside to people like what a great family we were , esp. if you included all the aunts, uncles and cousins. 

No one ever was willing to admit dysfunction except for the overuse of alcohol in the family, even then, my mom would never admit anyone was really an alcoholic until one of my sister actually admitted it herself.

No one ever saw the many problems that came up over and over again as dysfunction.  Every damn thing that came up was swept under the rug, shrugged off.

All my mom ever said to me about the things I questioned was, Well we can't do anything about it.

My mom was as sick as my philandering, alcohol abusing, immature dad, but in a codependent way.

We all were programmed to focus on their needs, as my mother was programmed to focus on my grandmothers needs.

There was never , ever any real closeness among the five siblings, just posing.  Some are still posing.

I can't wait to be completely healed of the posing, I am working on it every day with the help of Faith Therapy, and the book Codependent no more by Beattie.


xoxoTelios

[Gettingthere]

I'm wondering, and B&W and others, I hope you will chime in on this.

Just how much does abuse of power play into the triangulation and how deeply can it run?

In my opinion, triangulation is all about the abuse of power, depending on which of the three positions you are in at any given time, you are either exerting too much power in the relationship, or CHOOSING TO GIVE YOUR POWER AWAY, which i think is a way off of the triangle, to choose to keep your personal power. A T made the very important point to me too that in stepping off the triangle, you may well be percieved by other players as a pesrecutor, you have to be clear in your own head of your intentions and that you are not persecuting, you cant change how others interpret things.

B&W, do you or the book have any examples of step 5 of the recovery process? 5. Responsibility for change--accepting the reality and working toward change

I believe that this is where i am now, and as God is my witness, i am trying my hardest not to pass this stuff on to my kids. I am currently readung "Kids who carry our pain", although this is more about codependancy than narcissim.  I have found this, which although brief i thought was a succint way re parenting to prevent narcissm



www.family.org/sharedAssets/correspondence/pdfs/LifeChallenges/Responding_to_Narcissism.pdf

www.media.focusonthefamily.com/topicinfo/responding_to_narcissism.pdf

[zachira]

I have read this book on The Narcissistic Family, along with many books and articles on narcissists, borderlines. I would say that everyone has unique experiences with their family. It is so hard to deal with how the family misrepresents itself to the outside world, and trashes the family members that stand up to the dysfunction in the family. Oftentimes, relatives, friends, neighbors, some therapists, believe the negative comments and stories made up about the members who refuse to play the role that the dysfunctional families members want them to play. For me, the key is to have my own life away from the family in places where nobody knows my family, and I can trust the feedback I get from others, because I know that it has nothing to do with my family members trashing me behind my back.