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Author Topic: not trying to judge but there is more hostility here than I expected  (Read 7165 times)
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« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2010, 11:41:05 PM »

Staff only

Our experiences and attitudes may differ, but we all have in common the need to heal. Just a quick reminder of our guidelines:

Advising and Supporting Others: Members shall offer only compassionate, well founded, fact based advice. While it is anticipated that most members have little or no formal training in therapy, members are expected to read and have some reasonable foundation before giving advice to others. Collectively the membership is here to learn and grow as a group and it is important that we not recycle or reinforce incorrect or unhealthy ideas.

Members should offer advice as peer opinions targeted directly to the host of the thread. Members shall be patient and understanding of other members that are in different stages of the learning or healing process.
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« Reply #61 on: April 02, 2010, 07:09:53 AM »

Hi Concerned47

I really appreciated your reply earlier and common sense would state that we all have unique experiences and have had to deal with this at different degrees.

Absolutely!

Excerpt
Regarding your words about my feelings being as legitimate and supported as everyone else's, there may be some on this site who because of the duration of our relationship and the fact that I was simply dumped without being abused, they are trying to suggest that maybe this is not even BPD.

The truth is, a good percentage of the people on this forum do not know for certain that their ex's were BPD. They only 'suspect' based upon the characteristics they witnessed and the experience that they encountered. Unless one is medically qualified, no-one can make that diagnosis.

However, this site is for anyone who has had an encounter with someone who has been or is suspected of having BPD.

Therefore, like I said prior you have every right to be here and supported just as much as anyone else. The length of one's encounter is irrelevant. Only you knew your full experience and it seems to fit in with what you have researched on BPD. The Roger Melton Article is a good one by the way! It was really validating for me.

Sometimes in a forum people will offer a different perspective for us to 'consider', it is not meant to demean or invalidate your experiences. So please don't take it personally!

I am very happy to see you are still posting!  Smiling (click to insert in post) You created a very 'vibrant', healthy debate that got people talking about their experiences and raised awareness. That is all part of what a forum is all about.


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« Reply #62 on: April 02, 2010, 08:07:56 AM »

Excerpt
If this site or forum is for people that were only seriously abused  or in long term relationships with someone that has BPD, let me know and I will stop posting and participating.



Excerpt
Sometimes in a forum people will offer a different perspective for us to 'consider', it is not meant to demean or invalidate your experiences. So please don't take it personally!

I am very happy to see you are still posting!   You created a very 'vibrant', healthy debate that got people talking about their experiences and raised awareness. That is all part of what a forum is all about.

veryconcerned: I agree with IP don't take it personally... .I was even a little offended at first at the fact you were asking how in the world we could all be so angry all the time...   But in talking to you I can see you were still in the very early stages of your relationship.  I can tell you with absolutely certainty if my BPDSO had left me in the early stages I too, would have been destroyed!  Just remember that is the nature of the disease... .VERY INTENSE ! Good and Bad... . 

Excerpt
Wow, the more I am learning about this the luckier I am feeling that she dumped me

.

In reality ... YES you are.  She left you before you could develop any resentment and anger... .And with 3 failed marriages and a broken engagement... .she may be aware there is a problem.  She may have the "flight" feeling.  Mine had it too, but he never left... .and now the damage has been done.  Even after everything he has done to me... I still Love him.  It's perfectly normal for you to miss her and long for all the hopes and dreams she "sold" you.
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« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2010, 08:52:19 AM »

Quote from: Lost in Wonderland
 

It's perfectly normal for you to miss her and long for all the hopes and dreams she "sold" you.

That is exactly it... .the love, hopes and dreams... .that was "sold" to us... .

Dealing with the reality of what you really have which can be 'nothing', even if you are

STILL in a relationship with them, can be very, very difficult to come to terms with. I know it

was for me.

You feel like you were 'duped' by a con artist, in some cases.



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« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2010, 10:29:03 AM »

Thanks lost. I am sorry if I offended anyone. It was not my intent. I have lots of compassion in my heart. It has amazing how this affected me. I have had relationships fail before. I just moved on and put them behind me. I am sure you can relate to have different this is. She really got into my head and made me feel like I couldn't have scripted something that wonderful. I know there were some signs, especially the way she would speak about her ex's and never utter their names. She had a major victim attitude. Being on this forum is helping me make sense in terms of what happened. I was just thinking about all the times she cried during some of out tenderest moments in bed. I assumed they were tears of joy. I wonder if they were because she knew where all of this was heading. I would be lying if I said I did not miss her. She was like an angel until the very end. Thanks and have a great day

Excerpt
If this site or forum is for people that were only seriously abused  or in long term relationships with someone that has BPD, let me know and I will stop posting and participating.



Excerpt
Sometimes in a forum people will offer a different perspective for us to 'consider', it is not meant to demean or invalidate your experiences. So please don't take it personally!

I am very happy to see you are still posting!   You created a very 'vibrant', healthy debate that got people talking about their experiences and raised awareness. That is all part of what a forum is all about.

veryconcerned: I agree with IP don't take it personally... .I was even a little offended at first at the fact you were asking how in the world we could all be so angry all the time...   But in talking to you I can see you were still in the very early stages of your relationship.  I can tell you with absolutely certainty if my BPDSO had left me in the early stages I too, would have been destroyed!  Just remember that is the nature of the disease... .VERY INTENSE ! Good and Bad... . 

Excerpt
Wow, the more I am learning about this the luckier I am feeling that she dumped me

.

In reality ... YES you are.  She left you before you could develop any resentment and anger... .And with 3 failed marriages and a broken engagement... .she may be aware there is a problem.  She may have the "flight" feeling.  Mine had it too, but he never left... .and now the damage has been done.  Even after everything he has done to me... I still Love him.  It's perfectly normal for you to miss her and long for all the hopes and dreams she "sold" you.

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« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2010, 10:53:46 AM »

Excerpt
I was just thinking about all the times she cried during some of out tenderest moments in bed. I assumed they were tears of joy. I wonder if they were because she knew where all of this was heading

Sadly, She probably did  :'( x.  Imagine having to live life knowing you'll never really be happy.
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« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2010, 11:15:08 AM »

Excerpt
Dealing with the reality of what you really have which can be 'nothing', even if you are

STILL in a relationship with them, can be very, very difficult to come to terms with. I know it

was for me.

I still have a hard time believing we had "nothing'... .I still can't believe all the fun and love we shared wasn't really real.   He's been trying to "make up" for what he has done... .

He can't ever possibly "make up" ... .and It takes a lot of work not to believe in the crap he's trying to feed me again. 
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« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2010, 12:23:19 PM »

That's the problem LIW, it does take alot of 'effort' not to be hoodwinked AGAIN.

It all sounds so incredibly sincere. Mind you they are well practiced at begging and pleading. Well practiced... .

The thing is despite some people going through a bad 'HISTORY' over and over and over again with these people, they still 'hope'. They are so desperate for 'the dream', despite it being obvious that this is never going to ever be the person to provide it. PwBPD haven't got the emotional capacity. They talk the talk but they can never walk the walk. That is where the 'disconnect' reveals itself.

This is when the emphasis & responsibility definitely moves completely away from the BPD and onto the person themselves for not facing up to reality. That in itself is an issue that lies directly with the person and not the BPD at all.

When you have REALLY gotten over a BPD in your life, you can see clearly through their shallow, phoney words and just how truly empty they are... .

Pure mimicry!

If you have ever heard the expression, 'He just told you what you wanted to hear'... .

pwBPD are the Kings and Queens of this saying. They own that saying. They mirror and mimic to get what they 'need' out of a situation.They are alert like dogs with their ears pricked. They look for 'reactions' in everything. If they get a good response to their words they've got the green light to lay it on THICK. You know everything with them has to be extreme.





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anker
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« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2010, 12:41:00 PM »

It doesn't sound like your relationship included the kind of lying, insults, and purposeful misdirection that mine did.

Lucky!

I'm angry because someone chose to hurt me rather than seek help. That makes me angry.

I loved him but he made me furious.
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« Reply #69 on: April 02, 2010, 12:48:02 PM »

Im sorry if this goes off a little, but I wanted to for IP's help... .You seem like you have been there and done this... .How did you?  Today is day 8 and I feel like I am about to have a nervous breakdown  :'(.

Excerpt
When you have REALLY gotten over a BPD in your life, you can see clearly through their shallow, phoney words and just how truly empty they are... .

I know I am not over him... .I am guitly as charged as still "hoping" ... .Hoping for Therapy, Hoping this break will make him realize what he has, hoping he can beat this... .I am so willing to help him if he would just help himself.  :'(

Deep down I know he won't change... .I see it hear ... .I see years and years of what I have been through... .  I am emabarrassed to say I'm not as angry as I should be... and that I do still (at least think) I love him... .He's has at times been a MONSTER then at times he's an Angel... .How much do we have to take to realize things WON'T change? How long does the hope last?  I want to let go... .I want to forget... I want to move on... .I just don't know how.

The busted lips healed, the bruises are gone... .and I ... once again today find myself ... .missing him.   ? :'(  I wish I could stay hostile... .I wish I could stay anger... .Why can't I?
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« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2010, 01:15:54 PM »

Thanks for your reply. I have been thinking about the tears. Not that it makes a difference, but I just keep asking myself if she was crying because she knew everything we created was soon to come crashing down. They say BPD's have no empathy. Her recent actions seem to validate this. I even wondered if the tears were because she saw all of that love in my eyes and for a moment actually felt some empathy. 

Excerpt
I was just thinking about all the times she cried during some of out tenderest moments in bed. I assumed they were tears of joy. I wonder if they were because she knew where all of this was heading

Sadly, She probably did  :'( x.  Imagine having to live life knowing you'll never really be happy.

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« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2010, 01:19:04 PM »

While it seems you and I have had very different experiences in our relationships. We both know that there would be nothing but more disappointment, heartache and sadness if we continued down the road. You and I can do better, and we also deserve better. Times like this make me wonder what it would be like to meet a woman that actually shared the same experience I did. That would be a very profound thing to have in common.

Excerpt
Dealing with the reality of what you really have which can be 'nothing', even if you are

STILL in a relationship with them, can be very, very difficult to come to terms with. I know it

was for me.

I still have a hard time believing we had "nothing'... .I still can't believe all the fun and love we shared wasn't really real.   He's been trying to "make up" for what he has done... .

He can't ever possibly "make up" ... .and It takes a lot of work not to believe in the crap he's trying to feed me again. 

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« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2010, 01:20:48 PM »

What you wrote reminds me of the quote 'if I do not love myself, how can I expect others to love me. '

That's the problem LIW, it does take alot of 'effort' not to be hoodwinked AGAIN.

It all sounds so incredibly sincere. Mind you they are well practiced at begging and pleading. Well practiced... .

The thing is despite some people going through a bad 'HISTORY' over and over and over again with these people, they still 'hope'. They are so desperate for 'the dream', despite it being obvious that this is never going to ever be the person to provide it. PwBPD haven't got the emotional capacity. They talk the talk but they can never walk the walk. That is where the 'disconnect' reveals itself.

This is when the emphasis & responsibility definitely moves completely away from the BPD and onto the person themselves for not facing up to reality. That in itself is an issue that lies directly with the person and not the BPD at all.

When you have REALLY gotten over a BPD in your life, you can see clearly through their shallow, phoney words and just how truly empty they are... .

Pure mimicry!

If you have ever heard the expression, 'He just told you what you wanted to hear'... .

pwBPD are the Kings and Queens of this saying. They own that saying. They mirror and mimic to get what they 'need' out of a situation.They are alert like dogs with their ears pricked. They look for 'reactions' in everything. If they get a good response to their words they've got the green light to lay it on THICK. You know everything with them has to be extreme.



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« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2010, 01:55:37 PM »

Hi veryconcerned, i am sorry that you were feeling out of place here...

I think everyone who comes to this site is more than welcome, and can count on a lot of respect, understanding, warm and loving comments,advice, first time i came here, it felt like a very warm shower after a very very cold walk... .

Like most said you were probably lucky to get out on time... .without hostility and anger and feelings of hate...

But don't you feel anger by proxy, what she also did to your son?

Anger was for me the way out, was the life saver for my children, if it wasn't for anger we probably would have been seriously ill or dead by now.

Anger keeps you moving, get you moving, and protects you against feelings of regret,shame,fear,all that you don't need when you are trying to get control of the sitiuation when it is really really bad...

This is the only place where i could rage,vent, without being judged and also was completely understood.

Anger gets the adrenaline level up what you need sometimes to not get blown away by the facts and reality.

Anger is also a part of the grieving, which we probably all know what they are.

I think when reality hits you real you will feel anger... .and you need to let it out sometimes, because suppression will turn into depression... and this is the place where you can do that without someone is looking at you and is saying wht ?

Or even worse, the anger builds up and gets out at the most inconveniant time.

We also share feelings of pain,hurt,sadness,regrets,guilt and so on...

I must say some people over here can rant,vent and write their anger down in a most fantastic way,full of humor and it helps to see the things in perspective.

Not only that but there are many out here who gained wisdom and peace and can gently point out your own issues,which we all have because if you don't, you will not be involved with a BPD.

No one offends any one here with that intention and we all know that that is not what you are doing.

However, staying in a state of anger will do you no good. I think the time we are having no feelings at all for our exBPD,is the time we are ready.

Even anger will attach us still to our ex,and will do us more harm  in the end than it will do to them.

No need perse for forgiving or complete empathy,jus a lack of all feelings is a state of peace,and considering the intention of all of us to also take a good look at our own part and willing to acknowledge them will get us all in that peacefull state of mind x
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« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2010, 03:13:11 PM »

Hi Manon, Thanks for your reply. She was actually very nice to my son. Plus our boys were close in age and became very close. He doesn't understand how this could have happened. He was so happy when the 4 of us were together. Last week my ex-BPD-gf kept calling and emailing my son. This week it has calmed down.

I would like to get the belongings (TV, camcorder, electric razor, bluray player) back I have at her house. I wonder what the best way would be to approach her. I am considering:

1) A business type letter, serious to the point (risk, that might piss her off)

2) An honest letter, telling her I hope she is ok and I remember all the special moments we shared (risk, that might piss her off)

3) A phone call or voice message (risk, that might piss her off)

I also loaned her money and I never imagined she would not pay me back. After all she was in a bind and I helped her. I would have taken $50 a month. So far I received 0.

Have a great day





Hi veryconcerned, i am sorry that you were feeling out of place here...

I think everyone who comes to this site is more than welcome, and can count on a lot of respect, understanding, warm and loving comments,advice, first time i came here, it felt like a very warm shower after a very very cold walk... .

Like most said you were probably lucky to get out on time... .without hostility and anger and feelings of hate...

But don't you feel anger by proxy, what she also did to your son?

No need perse for forgiving or complete empathy,jus a lack of all feelings is a state of peace,and considering the intention of all of us to also take a good look at our own part and willing to acknowledge them will get us all in that peacefull state of mind x

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« Reply #75 on: April 02, 2010, 03:40:31 PM »

concerned: you are going to piss her off either way... ."nature of the beast"... just be prepared for backlash.   It may also work the opposite for you... .  exp.  my BPDso and I were seeing eachother for about 3 months when he told me that he just couldn't handle it anymore ... .(i was in the middle of a nasty divorce with 2 kids) ... .He was also separating from his ex and they also have a son together... he was 18 months old at the time... .so we stopped seeing eachother to just deal with life.  3 days later I went by his house in the morning and her car was there... .so I completely stopped talking to him... .But I had some things of his and he had some things of mine... so we started with light text messages until we finally agreed to meet for dinner... .

Well that night was the start of our life... .- ... .that was close to 4 years ago now...

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« Reply #76 on: April 02, 2010, 06:47:24 PM »

How about just politely requesting by email or letter (depending on her e-savvy) that she leave the stuff at a specific time and place of mutual convenience? I do not recommend the phone or direct personal contact. This has worked for me before.  EX: Hi.  I hope you are doing well.  I'd like my African robe and calculator back, if I could, please.  Would you consider leaving it on the back porch between 1P and 4P on Wednesday? There is no need for you to meet with me personally on this.  In fact, I prefer if we do not meet directly then.

If you prefer a different time and place, please let me know.  If I do not hear from you, I will simply come by there at 1PM Wednesday, unless you object.  I would prefer to hear your convenience on this, however.  If you have other issues of your own, can we set a different time to deal with those, please?  Please let me know if there is something of yours that I need to drop off when I come by, or if you want to deal with something else later.  Thanks.

She will either get pissed (which looks like it might happen no matter what you do) or cooperate.  She might want to hang on to it as some weird revenge (personal photos are a favorite for that)  or as a hook to draw you back in.  If she won't co-operate, there is not much you can do.  I think it is best just to let the stuff go as the price of getting rid of the BPD in your life.  It's only stuff, after all.  Fighting over stuff is a good way to get sucked back into things or provoke an incident that she may want for other reasons.
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« Reply #77 on: April 02, 2010, 11:56:30 PM »

Hello,

I just sent her an email about an hour ago. I was listening to a song that the 2 of us enjoyed very much. I went for option number 2. After I sent it I started thinking how true the black and white metaphor is in describing this condition. When she thought I was perfect, I could do no wrong. When she figured out I was a human which happened around the time the honeymoon period must have ended, she would have nothing to do with me. In her crazy world, I was the guy she idolized and pledged her eternal love and heart and body to. Now I doubt she will even return my email. In any relationship, even when one person makes a mistake, the other person does not judge them by that mistake only. That would be insane. They are able to look at the bigger picture. So in my case it doesn't matter that 97% of the time we interacted with were wonderful to her. She hits one thing and that consumes her and she is done. That is why I liked the analogy about someone who gets rid of their  lawnmower every time the spark plug goes bad.

Now it also occurred to me that if I knew what I was dealing with, I could have been careful not to do anything that would even have remotely set her off. That would have maybe given us another month or 2, but that is it. So many people outside this site keep warning me not to go back to her. I am not planning on it. But again, its very unlikely I would have the option. She has erased everything good we ever had and all that's left is something dark and ugly.

So in my note to her tonight I told her that regardless of how things ended what we shared was wonderful and nothing anyone can say or do can ever change that. I also wished her the best. I have no clue how my words will effect her. But at this point I wrote them as part of the process of moving on. last point, my buddy who I was with tonight when I sent the message said he thought I sent it, not only to get my things back, but because I was hoping for a miracle. Meaning the ex-BPD-gf reads something from the dumped ex and it strikes a note and the next thing she snaps out of it and is in his arms again. I explained to him that that thought never crossed my mind. For that she would have to have empathy, forgiveness and the ability to look at the larger picture. All things that are sadly lacking in someone with BPD.

Have a nice evening.


I would like to get the belongings (TV, camcorder, electric razor, bluray player) back I have at her house. I wonder what the best way would be to approach her. I am considering:

1) A business type letter, serious to the point (risk, that might piss her off)

2) An honest letter, telling her I hope she is ok and I remember all the special moments we shared (risk, that might piss her off)

3) A phone call or voice message (risk, that might piss her off)

I also loaned her money and I never imagined she would not pay me back. After all she was in a bind and I helped her. I would have taken $50 a month. So far I received 0.

Have a great day





Hi veryconcerned, i am sorry that you were feeling out of place here...

I think everyone who comes to this site is more than welcome, and can count on a lot of respect, understanding, warm and loving comments,advice, first time i came here, it felt like a very warm shower after a very very cold walk... .

Like most said you were probably lucky to get out on time... .without hostility and anger and feelings of hate...

But don't you feel anger by proxy, what she also did to your son?

No need perse for forgiving or complete empathy,jus a lack of all feelings is a state of peace,and considering the intention of all of us to also take a good look at our own part and willing to acknowledge them will get us all in that peacefull state of mind x


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« Reply #78 on: April 03, 2010, 01:37:25 PM »

All too true.  Post-break-up letters seem to have another quality to me, too.  When we have been close to someone for a long time, we naturally want to share significant moments with them.  And particularly in life catastrophes, there is a conditioned instinct to turn to that person.  Break-up with a potential life partner is a life catastrophe, so we tend to turn back to that person at that moment - even though that person no longer exists for us in the way that they did.  I think it just takes the deconditioning of time to make this pass.  It is an ironic feature of the mourning process when the other is still alive in some way.
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« Reply #79 on: April 03, 2010, 02:13:39 PM »

Joe, you raise an interesting point in your reply. Does the ex-BPD mourn at all? Do they feel any of the sorrow or sadness when a beautiful dream that was moving forward dies a sudden death? I am guessing the answer is no, because of the extreme shift that occurs. It was like going from I LOVE YOU FOREVER AND WILL BE GROWING OLD WITH YOU to I HATE YOU AND NEVER WANT TO SEE YOU OR TALK TO YOU AGAIN. I know sometimes they re engage. That is not happening in my case. The black and white world seems better suited for animals than humans.

All too true.  Post-break-up letters seem to have another quality to me, too.  When we have been close to someone for a long time, we naturally want to share significant moments with them.  And particularly in life catastrophes, there is a conditioned instinct to turn to that person.  Break-up with a potential life partner is a life catastrophe, so we tend to turn back to that person at that moment - even though that person no longer exists for us in the way that they did.  I think it just takes the deconditioning of time to make this pass.  It is an ironic feature of the mourning process when the other is still alive in some way.

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« Reply #80 on: April 03, 2010, 04:39:06 PM »



Hi Veryconcerned47


Your experience sounds rather similar to that that I encountered, so do not feel your expressions and feelings are out of place here. I do feel for you, it is a difficult and confusing experience to reconcile to say the least, being here will offer you much to help with that.

I like yourself really didn't have any great degree of anger or hostility toward my exgf, my relationship moved along pretty smoothly until one fine day it all went to hell in a handcart. I can understand those that do express anger, many here endured intolerable treatment by their partner or family member, circumstances vary enormously.

This a great community to find support for healing, learning and understanding. I hope you will continue to post.



Sandyb
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« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2010, 10:20:27 PM »

Hey Sandy, Thanks, as I put in an earlier post that each day that goes by and the more time I read about this and spend on this site, I feel better and closer to having this behind me. It has been very hard to reconcile, but I am starting to reframe this experience in terms of it showing me what joy was possible, but of course with an emotionally healthy woman. She didn't do enough for me to feel anger or hostility, but unlike her I am able to feel tremendous empathy and compassion.  Undoubtedly there is a woman out there who I will one day share the same tender love and joy with, but will be healthy enough emotionally to accept me as an imperfect man, when we pledge her hearts are safe in each others hands, it will not just be me who means it. I will still take that risk again, otherwise I would have to give up on my dreams. Only difference, I will be smarter. I wish you the same also and hope you find the strength to never give up on your dreams.


Hi Veryconcerned47

Your experience sounds rather similar to that that I encountered, so do not feel your expressions and feelings are out of place here. I do feel for you, it is a difficult and confusing experience to reconcile to say the least, being here will offer you much to help with that.

I like yourself really didn't have any great degree of anger or hostility toward my exgf, my relationship moved along pretty smoothly until one fine day it all went to hell in a handcart. I can understand those that do express anger, many here endured intolerable treatment by their partner or family member, circumstances vary enormously.

This a great community to find support for healing, learning and understanding. I hope you will continue to post.

Sandyb

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« Reply #82 on: April 04, 2010, 11:48:37 AM »

Do BPD's mourn?  That is a good question, but it might be subsumed by the deeper question, ":)o BPD's love in the manner that most people do?"  Or more personally for you, ":)id love mean the same thing to her that it means to me?"  Others have pointed out here (and I think it is said on one of the recommended readings) that the BPD will never (and did never) see the relationship in the way that you did.  This is one of the many ways that hoping for a big change of some sort to reconcile the past just won't be productive.

The BPD simply has diminished capacity for empathy.  As I read the stories of people on this board, this feature just leaps out at me - even if that feature is not a prominent part of the DSM criteria.  This is not to say that we all do not hurt others sometimes - and particularly when love is involved.  The problem is that the BPD has no remorse about the hurting, and lacks or does not hear that little bell that goes off in most people's heads before engaging in outrageous behavior toward an intimate.

So what is BPD grief?  I suspect that it is more than anything else frustration and anger about the loss of what was hoped to be a pleasurable and/or advantageous love object.  This seems to explain the tendency toward disproportionate retaliation after the relationship's collapse, regardless of where the true fault lies.  It's not that, "I miss you," but rather, "I miss the things that you provided to me in the past and I am mad about your not providing them any longer because I was entitled to them regardless of what I did."



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« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2010, 11:50:43 AM »

I guess the real theme of what's written below is that the question, ":)oes she mourn my loss?" might really be, ":)id she love enough to miss me?" 
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« Reply #84 on: April 04, 2010, 12:08:31 PM »

"I miss the things that you provided to me in the past and I am mad about your not providing them any longer because I was entitled to them regardless of what I did...

My thoughts too, which very much is like the so called narcisstic supplies... .i think these disorders overlap eachother very much
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« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2010, 04:03:36 PM »

Do BPD's mourn?  That is a good question, but it might be subsumed by the deeper question, ":)o BPD's love in the manner that most people do?"  

The BPD simply has diminished capacity for empathy.

The problem is that the BPD has no remorse about the hurting, and lacks or does not hear that little bell that goes off in most people's heads before engaging in outrageous behavior toward an intimate.

So what is BPD grief?  I suspect that it is more than anything else frustration and anger about the loss of what was hoped to be a pleasurable and/or advantageous love object.  This seems to explain the tendency toward disproportionate retaliation after the relationship's collapse, regardless of where the true fault lies.  It's not that, "I miss you," but rather, "I miss the things that you provided to me in the past and I am mad about your not providing them any longer because I was entitled to them regardless of what I did."

I question whether BPD love at all. How can they? They have no concept of 'real' feeling for another. It is a toxic/enmeshed/complex way of relating that is ultimately about them and can NEVER be considered to be love... .IMHO... .nomatter the intensity of the words, THEIR ACTIONS SPEAK volumes! That incongruency that reveals itself and tells you who the person actually is but nons find it naturally hard to ACCEPT, despite the evidence before them.

PwBPD are not whole people, they are damaged individuals and despite their initial appearances their brokeness WILL reveal itself to you in a surprising and damaging way.

In my own relationship, the retaliation & ugliness was definitely also about, 'I know I have messed things up again and I know you are the type of person who will never have me back. In order for my 'ego' to cope with that fact, I have to hate you (split you/defence mechanism). I need to find an excuse to hate you even if I have to create chaos and ugliness to find that excuse. Once I can hate you and tell myself (and others) that you're a bad woman that did this to ME, then I can move on. After all, why would I want to be with someone like you? I don't need to look back at a rotten person like you. IT IS ME THAT DOESN'T WANT YOU! Now I have established that you are the bad one, that means it wasn't my fault and therefore there is nothing wrong with me'.

'Now I can move on. I can start afresh.'

With pwBPD they have too many primitive reactions/mechanisms going on to ever come close feeling or giving 'LOVE', or indeed receiving it. I think that they just 'mimic' love and what they've seen but they can't 'feel' it. Love encompasses empathy. The intensity we mistake for their feeling of love is the intensity of their 'neediness' and that is not about 'loving' us.

I agree... .I think BPD 'grief' is missing the loss of some advantage/benefit they got from their involvement.







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« Reply #86 on: April 04, 2010, 04:24:04 PM »

Hi Interested, You really raise some thought provoking points. In the past, when a relationship did not last, I never really faced serious ego issues. It was not about whose fault it was. It simply didn't work period. I recall how my ex-pbd-gf used to always talk about why every failed relationship was not her fault. SHe always had a reason it failed that had to do with her being a victim. He was violent, he cheated, he neglected me, he was a liar, he had mental issues, etc One time I asked her if it was simply because they were not compatible and she looked at me like I had 2 heads. Part of moving on in a healthy manner is to forgive and make peace. I once read a relationship book that said the way we end our last relationship impacts our next relationship. I didn't think much about that until now. SO maybe I am kidding myself, but deep down I had hoped that this beautiful woman that touched my heart and gave me so much pleasure, will one day be able to say 'farewell, we came together for a short period and shared the most beautiful bliss and passion as a man and a woman'.  Not sure if I mentioned this but she like to share her views on life and used to say that even though all the men on in her past were monsters, there must have been a reason that they were in each others lives. Strange.

SO you are right, they think they know love, but do not know empathy and demand perfection, They mimic love the way a parrot mimics speech, just because a parrot says good morning, does not mean the bird wants you to have a nice morning, and finally I can't begin to understand how this woman would be able to grieve anything.

I question whether BPD love at all. How can they? They have no concept of 'real' feeling for another. It is a toxic/enmeshed/complex way of relating that is ultimately about them and can NEVER be considered to be love... .IMHO... .nomatter the intensity of the words, THEIR ACTIONS SPEAK volumes! That incongruency that reveals itself and tells you who the person actually is but nons find it naturally hard to ACCEPT, despite the evidence before them.

PwBPD are not whole people, they are damaged individuals and despite their initial appearances their brokeness WILL reveal itself to you in a surprising and damaging way.

In my own relationship, the retaliation & ugliness was definitely also about, 'I know I have messed things up again and I know you are the type of person who will never have me back. In order for my 'ego' to cope with that fact, I have to hate you (split you/defence mechanism). I need to find an excuse to hate you even if I have to create chaos and ugliness to find that excuse. Once I can hate you and tell myself (and others) that you're a bad woman that did this to ME, then I can move on. After all, why would I want to be with someone like you? I don't need to look back at a rotten person like you. IT IS ME THAT DOESN'T WANT YOU! Now I have established that you are the bad one, that means it wasn't my fault and therefore there is nothing wrong with me'.

'Now I can move on. I can start afresh.'

With pwBPD they have too many primitive reactions/mechanisms going on to ever come close feeling or giving 'LOVE', or indeed receiving it. I think that they just 'mimic' love and what they've seen but they can't 'feel' it. Love encompasses empathy. The intensity we mistake for their feeling of love is the intensity of their 'neediness' and that is not about 'loving' us.

I agree... .I think BPD 'grief' is missing the loss of some advantage/benefit they got from their involvement.





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« Reply #87 on: April 05, 2010, 12:06:17 AM »

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