TREATMENT: Why marriage counseling so often fails

[BPDFamily.com]

Thanks for your responses so far. And Puglover, you asked how I started the discussion of couples therapy. To be quite frank, I have had the discussion and asked so many times I can't even remember how it actually started. It probably was when we were in the heat of anger and craziness and it was brought up as something to try and "save" us.

The more I hear the more I think it will not work now. She takes no conscious responsibility for our issues. Everything was caused by me - I invalidated her, I abused her, I am the cause of her lack of self identity and her feeling of disempowerment. It's the "I hate you, don't leave me scenario." She tells me she's not sure if our relationship is going to work out on a regular basis while at the same time she is talking about us moving together to California where we have a second home. I realize I'm being controlled and manipulated - as well as lied to regularly about both big and seemingly insignificant things. One days she's hating me, the next she's telling me how sweet something I said to her was.

I thought a neutral 3rd party might act as some sort of buffer so we can straighten things out. But I also know she is a master manipulator and can charm the pants off of anyone so I understand the posts about the T accusing the Non of being crazy or abusive. I guess I'll just continue my own therapy for now and see where all this goes.

[colt81522]

Thanks for your responses so far. And Puglover, you asked how I started the discussion of couples therapy. To be quite frank, I have had the discussion and asked so many times I can't even remember how it actually started. It probably was when we were in the heat of anger and craziness and it was brought up as something to try and "save" us.

The more I hear the more I think it will not work now. She takes no conscious responsibility for our issues. Everything was caused by me - I invalidated her, I abused her, I am the cause of her lack of self identity and her feeling of disempowerment. It's the "I hate you, don't leave me scenario." She tells me she's not sure if our relationship is going to work out on a regular basis while at the same time she is talking about us moving together to California where we have a second home. I realize I'm being controlled and manipulated - as well as lied to regularly about both big and seemingly insignificant things. One days she's hating me, the next she's telling me how sweet something I said to her was.

I thought a neutral 3rd party might act as some sort of buffer so we can straighten things out. But I also know she is a master manipulator and can charm the pants off of anyone so I understand the posts about the T accusing the Non of being crazy or abusive. I guess I'll just continue my own therapy for now and see where all this goes.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT This board is intended for general questions about BPD and other personality disorders, trait definitions, and related therapies and diagnostics. Topics should be formatted as a question. Please do not host topics related to the specific pwBPD in your life - those discussions should be hosted on an appropraite [L1] - [L4] board. You will find indepth information provided by our senior members in our workshop board discussions (click here).

[OBcean]

If you've never tried it, Colt, it might be worth a shot.   ?  I don't want to appear to be talking out of both sides of my mouth. 

If you've seen that she never takes responsibility for anything, you may be able to save yourself the  trouble... .In my case, the last time we went to "couples" therapy, he told our daughter that we were in therapy again.  He was all happy about it.  Then, when he blurts out all the things that were wrong about me, his claim was that he thought we were in therapy to help me.  As Bugs Bunny used to say, "oh, bruddah!" 

My other suggestion is to talk to you T about it.  S/he should be better able to advise you, as s/he has heard stories about your pwBPD, and must have some inkling about whether or not you two might be able to work it out.  Good luck, Colt.   

[puglover]

Thanks for your responses so far. And Puglover, you asked how I started the discussion of couples therapy. To be quite frank, I have had the discussion and asked so many times I can't even remember how it actually started. It probably was when we were in the heat of anger and craziness and it was brought up as something to try and "save" us.

The more I hear the more I think it will not work now. She takes no conscious responsibility for our issues. Everything was caused by me - I invalidated her, I abused her, I am the cause of her lack of self identity and her feeling of disempowerment. It's the "I hate you, don't leave me scenario." She tells me she's not sure if our relationship is going to work out on a regular basis while at the same time she is talking about us moving together to California where we have a second home. I realize I'm being controlled and manipulated - as well as lied to regularly about both big and seemingly insignificant things. One days she's hating me, the next she's telling me how sweet something I said to her was.

I thought a neutral 3rd party might act as some sort of buffer so we can straighten things out. But I also know she is a master manipulator and can charm the pants off of anyone so I understand the posts about the T accusing the Non of being crazy or abusive. I guess I'll just continue my own therapy for now and see where all this goes.

Yeah I grew sick of the begging and decided that convincing him to keep trying in the relationship was massively degrading and completely unsexy. I won't be seen as the nagging wife anymore if when I ask to my partner if he wants to see a therapist to work on the relationsio and he says no and can't think of any healthy alternative... i'm out. wow, i think i have discovered a standard. nice :P now to stick to it. congratulations for taking responsibility of your issues... you deserve to have someone who can do the same in the relationship. i'm so sorry that he was so hurtful and could not do this for you... .it must be a massive whack to the head and disappointing. The thing is I have learnt that I cannont validate my ex every hour like he needs it is draining. most people have like 2 moods a day... and i only have to validate those. but he has like 10 moods. people are unable to always validate you all the time... also because not all of them have time... eg. the bus driver has a job to do! learning self vaildation is key. This is very important for me because I did not receive that as a child and have grown dependant on the constant validation of others of my feelings. this is very dangous. it is nice to have somebodie's validatin but consider it a bonus to understanding in the communication rather than a need. but at the same time rememember how good it feels when others do it for you so you feel motivated to do the same. best of luck sounds like you are doing great.

[beyondbelief]

I thought a neutral 3rd party might act as some sort of buffer so we can straighten things out.

Ah you were thinking of relying on logic.

If you W is prone to splitting and b/w thinking there is no such thing as a neutral 3rd party in her mind.  As I noted above my X always tried to get the T or MC to see things completely her way.  Often it worked for a little while and X was happy.  Then they all tended to see things my way the X always determined the were incompetent and fired them, often in a rage.

[seeking balance]

What is your goal with couples therapy?  If your partner is BPD, you are both better off learning skills individually before coming together.  MC with an untreated pwBPD is not recommended - a pwBPD naturally will triangulate the therapist and unless the therapist is using the High Conflict Couple approach, the results are not great.

[colt81522]

What is your goal with couples therapy?  If your partner is BPD, you are both better off learning skills individually before coming together.  MC with an untreated pwBPD is not recommended - a pwBPD naturally will triangulate the therapist and unless the therapist is using the High Conflict Couple approach, the results are not great.

I'm realizing that. I guess my concern is that she is now not in ANY type of therapy and is placing ALL blame on me. At the same time she is taking advantage of my wanting to save the relationship by playing into my own issues (FOG). I realize I also need to adress my own issues individually. I thought that if we went to therapy together at least we were working on our relationship instead of avoiding the things between us that need to be discussed.

[seeking balance]

What is your goal with couples therapy?  If your partner is BPD, you are both better off learning skills individually before coming together.  MC with an untreated pwBPD is not recommended - a pwBPD naturally will triangulate the therapist and unless the therapist is using the High Conflict Couple approach, the results are not great.

I'm realizing that. I guess my concern is that she is now not in ANY type of therapy and is placing ALL blame on me. At the same time she is taking advantage of my wanting to save the relationship by playing into my own issues (FOG). I realize I also need to adress my own issues individually. I thought that if we went to therapy together at least we were working on our relationship instead of avoiding the things between us that need to be discussed.

Perhaps pick up a copy of High Conflict Couple - it doesn't mention BPD and it might help give each of you some tools.

My experience with MC was... .it prolonged the inevitable. The goal of MC was to keep us together; as such, my pwBPD would change the rules there just like at home.  I spent a lot of the time lost and feeling somewhat defensive with both of them. What MC did do for me was give me the peace of mind that I did everything that I could to save the marriage.

Keep practicing the staying board lessons, it does help. 

[OBcean]

Hey!  I just had an epiphany, Colt.  I am reading an ebook called The Other Side of BPD.  It's written by A.J. Mahari, who was BPD, and successfully completed therapy so that she can now say that she's recovering.  I'm finding this ebook to offer me some really important insights about ME -- why I bought into this r/s in the first place, how I've been walled in, and why, as a non, I have the ability to walk OUT.  It's been very freeing. 

Here's a link to the book: www.phoenixrisingpublications.ca/item.php?itemId=39&category=13

(I think I'm allowed to do this here... .If not, mods, sorry!)

[realityhurts]

I wasn't married to my ex, but I certainly intended to be. In every (emotional) respect I was as committed to her as if married and fought to the bitter end.

We attended relate (an MC service in the UK.) It was just after my Mother had died, she set the first appointment for the day of the funeral as she didn't think we'd stay long.

During MC (or rather RC) I heard so much changing of history and projection it was overwhelming. I was virtually speechless, I fell back into confusion and shame.

After the meeting she told me how much of her personal history she had deleted since it would have taken far too long (she has a very long history or anorexia, PD, drugs and general experience with mental health services)

I think if it ever reaches the point that things have become so disregulated that MC or RC just won't work under the traditional model.

[colt81522]

Well, I don't know if this is is good or bad but my BPDSOgf has finally agreed to go to couples therapy. For over 6 months she has refused (passive aggressively rather than overtly). Suddenly she agreed to one of my frequent requests. It actually caught me off guard. This is not going to be traditional weekly couples therapy. It's a workshop given over the course of a 3 day weekend. I proposed going to one they offered in July hoping to get her used to the idea but she said, "Why wait? They have one the end of January so let's go." It's supposed to be the equivilent of 3-6 months of weekly therapy. Also the focus of the therapy is not blame. It's a form of therapy called Imago. I know DBT would be preferable but, at this point, I am hopeful that she has agreed to ANY type. And, so far, she hasn't wavered. She still wants to go.

I am cautiously optimistic for the first time in a long time.

[UKannie]

I'm the daughter of a uNPD/BPD mother. I'm mostly on the 'Coping with relatives' Board. 

At 39 I have a lot of BPD fleas myself and have found it really difficult to enter and sustain healthy relationships. I've spent 2 out of the 3 years I've been with my current boyfriend in couples therapy. It has been incredibly expensive but we both work full-time and we have pooled resources to afford this. I feel incredibly lucky and privileged that he has stuck with me through my recovery from a lot of BPD-like behaviours and an anger management problem.

We don't yet live together, I had too many issues to exist with that level of day-in, day-out intimacy. We are working towards that. I could not have coped with marriage when I was younger, it would have ended in divorce. I am glad we have done all this work living mostly apart. I had a very abusive childhood and easily feel crowded and claustrophobic.

I'd say what has been key to saving our relationship is a therapist who doesn't fall for my cr*p but, at the same time, she has allowed me to cry and rage in therapy and given me a safe space to do so. She has also given my boyfriend the space to have his say and air his own feelings - which I was not giving him the space to do, nor was I listening to him.

Maybe what is different about me and many full-on PD'd people is that I desperately want to change, and I am totally committed to making my relationship a healthy one. I was just well enough to respond to couples therapy but only just. I am also forking out money for my own therapist as well. There is still a lot of damage from my childhood, adolescence and young adulthood to fix.

I think marriage counselling often fails as marriage itself is such a massive thing to enter into if your emotional health is not good. My BPD mother should not have got married and had kids, she was not fit to do so. Counselling cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

If one of you has a serious mental illness (and full blown BPD is a serious illness) how can you expect an intervention to work that is designed for relatively healthy people?

Annie

[Nutts45]

After I meet with his therapist.

Her words, "What was I wanting out of this relationship, because SO is unable to give anything to the relationship.  He is not capable of being part of the relationship, and he has quite a road ahead of him."

Marriage counseling is for the marriage, but they have to be ready to have a relationship, most BPD's aren't.

[PA_Someday]

Well believe it or not, my SO wife, would like to try "intense/private marriage counseling" as a last resort.  She knows things are ugly, but she still refuses to look at herself for one minute.

I have seen on the boards that marriage counseling often doesn't seem to work with BPD. We tried briefly, but shortly thereafter she admitted herself to a women's substance and abuse facility that did absolutely nothing for her/us except making things worse.  She is not an alcoholic and doesn't touch drugs, and they told her "nothing is wrong with her."   She found the place herself, didn't consult with me, and just left the next day for 30 days.  Oh, and somebody stole her wedding ring to boot.   She left for this treatment center because she didn't know what was going on with her and she was "beating her husband."  (After many rages including spitting, yelling, breaking my finger, my ulna (on diff occasion), other physical abuse, screaming, tantrums, breaking a few computers, mirrors, the usual BPD stuff, etc, etc).

Anyway, are there any resources that may combine marriage counseling with a BPD specialist?   Is this common? 

Once she found out I was looking at a BPD specialist at Hopkins and she had a complete fit on me (I said I was thinking of this person for me... .).    It would love for a counselor bring these issues out and talk to her/us about them and address them together.  I feel this is the only way this marriage will last and even if it doesn't, I feel she will continue on with life with the same patterns of broken relationships, mistrust of everyone, and never address the real, unresolved issues from her childhood and young adult life.

[an0ught]

Hi PA_Someday,

a possible plan and in order for it to work I would seek out someone specializing in CBT and/or DBT who also offers MC. But please forgive me for being skeptical. It may pay to follow me here closely as details matter, attitudes matter, expectations matter and ability to cope matter a lot and knowing where the challenges are may help to overcome them... .

Well believe it or not, my SO wife, would like to try "intense/private marriage counseling" as a last resort.  She knows things are ugly, but she still refuses to look at herself for one minute.

So this is going to work - "intensive"? Refusing to look at herself and counseling? PwBPD are very sensitive and the challenge to look at themselves usually overwhelms them. You also have the attitude that she needs to look at herself. Which if it happens leads to dysregulation and if it does not happen soon leads to your disappointment. DBT starts with validation and building a relationship between T and pwBPD which does encompass validation of the pwBPD and their reality - a fairly distorted one. Not sure you have, with your opinion of her having to look at herself, the distance to stomach that (besides what good would it do to you or the relationship).

I have seen on the boards that marriage counseling often doesn't seem to work with BPD. We tried briefly, but shortly thereafter she admitted herself to a women's substance and abuse facility that did absolutely nothing for her/us except making things worse.  She is not an alcoholic and doesn't touch drugs, and they told her "nothing is wrong with her."   She found the place herself, didn't consult with me, and just left the next day for 30 days.  Oh, and somebody stole her wedding ring to boot.   She left for this treatment center because she didn't know what was going on with her and she was "beating her husband."  (After many rages including spitting, yelling, breaking my finger, my ulna (on diff occasion), other physical abuse, screaming, tantrums, breaking a few computers, mirrors, the usual BPD stuff, etc, etc).

Did nothing? During that time did you get beat? Did things not calm down a little? Distance can sometimes help.

Anyway, are there any resources that may combine marriage counseling with a BPD specialist?   Is this common?  

Once she found out I was looking at a BPD specialist at Hopkins and she had a complete fit on me (I said I was thinking of this person for me... .).    It would love for a counselor bring these issues out and talk to her/us about them and address them together.  I feel this is the only way this marriage will last and even if it doesn't, I feel she will continue on with life with the same patterns of broken relationships, mistrust of everyone, and never address the real, unresolved issues from her childhood and young adult life.

Talking and being sensible does not help much. The pwBPD is running into problems when she is not sensible i.e. dysregulated. To deal with that one needs intensive training and time. We can help a little with regulation by validation  and we can make sure with boundaries that their problems stay where they belong. Sounds hard but helps them to see who has caused them in the first place. And by this often help them not to project their problems on us and enable them to regulation. Boundaries are absolutely key when it comes to DV. Not just to protect yourself - and it sounds like you have a real need here - but to improve emotional regulation on the other side and preventing the worst from happening.

Working together sounds find until you realize that it can easily, very easily lead to blurring the boundaries. Working together on your respective personal boundaries is not a good idea - how can you discuss with your wife what your values are and where you should draw the line in the sand and how you will protect yourself if she steps over? Undermines the exercise (note: I not saying boundaries should be secret here, but the process is private).

You have a DV problem which is almost always a sign of weak boundaries. Separation of stuff is very important for you. Please check out this workshop: US: Dealing with Enmeshment and Codependence and this workshop:    

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence .



Of course you can play tactical game, find a T who has a clue about BPD and does MC and then you get totally upset about the T and dropping out leaving your wife the trophy of a T   and getting your own one to get back to her (validating her feeling there are conflicts   ).

[seeking balance]

High Conflict Couple is a book that uses DBT skills without bringing up BPD.  If you found a MC that has some experience with working from that model it might be helpful.

The workshops suggested by An0ught will be quite valuable.

Peace,

SB

[SeekingInnerPeace]

MC for us was quite frankly a waste of $250-$500 every month, depending on how often we went.

My BPDH wouldn’t usually try to blame me, b/c he found out early on he could not get away with that one.  But, he would blame others from his past, as well as past uncontrollable incidents of unfortunate fate that were traumatic.  Even though he finally stopped doing that, he never took any responsibility for himself regardless.  I think b/c internally, he still blamed his past, even though outwardly, he wasn’t expressing this.  He learned in some respects what to say and what to avoid saying (mirroring).  All I can say is that he still fails to take responsibility for himself.

I would let PDH do most of the talking at the start of each session, but it would get to the point where it sounded as if we had no problems.  He would try to paint this picture of an ideal that in reality did not exist.  I would finally have to step in and fill in the gaps where he failed to do so.  If I wasn’t there, the therapist would have only heard half the story, if that, and would think that other than a few little occasional snafus, everything was honky dory.  As if!

The last therapist that we saw together was always validating of me and clearly understood what I was going through, so that part helped.  But I could have gotten that from an individual therapist.  I guess what helped – rather, what was supposed to help, b/c I don’t think it ever really did – was that H was there to hear the validation.  In other words, he couldn’t argue that I was in the wrong with my perceptions, b/c the therapist generally sided with me (though not in a way that made H feel ganged up on).

Yes, the gist was working on communication, though the couples counselor felt I had that part down pat.  It was BPDH who didn’t, and still doesn’t.

BPDH recently fired our couples counselor, and I had also been seeing my own therapist anyway, and still am.  BPDH just started seeing therapist #4 for him in as many years.  I have no hope that anything will change from his end.

[cominghome]

In my 26 year marriage to uBPDxh, we were in counseling off and on from year one. I was encouraged that my ex would go to counseling, though frustrated and confused at why it did not produce lasting changes. I kept depending on counselors to have the answers.  Multiple counselors did not pick up on the BPD piece, and my ex seemed to enjoy trying to charm the women therapists--or getting them to feel sorry for him. His early wounds were from his mom, and it makes sense now how he looks for connections and nurturing from female relationships. The several male therapists didn't last long---ex got upset and refused to go back. It wasn't until I read SWOE's that it all started to make sense.  It's my opinion that the vast majority of counselors are not educated on high functioning BPD's---and only look for low functioning symptoms for BPD consideration. So it was missed---and that was the elephant in the room all along.

[alembic]

Hello everyone.  My first post here.  I am currently in marriage counselling with what I believe to be an uBPDw, I think that's the right abbreviation.  So many of the posts in this thread resonate with me.

We have had three different marriage counselors over the years. My wife regularly dissolves into floods of tears whenever we attend counselling sessions. She is extremely intelligent, and always describes her plight with such great passion,clarity and anguish. Most people who hear her story immediately assume I must be a really terrible husband, including the counsellors/therapists.  She always somehow manages to put spin on everything to make even the tiniest domestic incident seem like it was a horrible slight against her, usually without materially changing the facts too much, which I think is in some ways quite an amazing skill. I usually try to patiently explain to the counsellor that the incident described didn't feel at all like that to me, but because I do not immediately seem to respond to the floods of tears and upset from my wife, I am often labelled as callous, or 'not in touch with my emotions', which just validates my wife's point of view that I am the cause of all our problems.  Over the years, she has tried in turn to label me with things like Asperger's Syndrome, to account for this lack of sympathy with her point of view.  I feel it is very difficult to be sympathetic towards something that didn't seem to actual happen, at least in the way it was described.

Often, as soon as the sessions are over, the tears immediately switch off, and my wife goes back to being her usual, rather detached self.   It seems like a performance to me, but if I suggest this to her, my wife uses that as a weapon against me, and tells the therapist that I am so callous that I even accuse her of trying to manipulate me via her anguish, to which the counsellors usually look duly horrified.   I even got a kiss today after the session, straight after reeling off all the horrible things she claims I do to her to make her feel so terrible that she had to cry throughout the whole session.

The therapists all seem very convinced by her. I pointed out that her crying through the whole session isn't very easy for me to deal with, but was told by the therapist that 'feelings can't be controlled'. If I try to point out the logical inconsistencies in her account of events, which there are occasionally, I am criticised for being "too rational", and not 'engaging on an emotional level' with our problems. 

Another problem is that the same rules don't seem to apply to me as to her.  She will quite happily criticize me for something, and the therapist will agree with her that this is unreasonable or undesirable, but if I then point out that she also does the same thing, this is somehow 'different', or in a different context that makes it acceptable.  The therapist never calls her on it, and says 'But this is just the same thing you claim your husband does, which you say hurts so much'.

The therapist asked us to summarize our childhood experiences.  My wife initially refused to talk about hers - she had a really difficult relationship with her mother, and I think she thought it would prejudice her argument to talk about it.  Even though she glossed over the worst parts, there was still a lot there for the therapist to get stuck into. However, instead the therapist opted to home in on my childhood (which was mostly happy, and I told her so) somehow in a bid to try and 'prove' that it wasn't as happy as I said it was.

We have three children, and the extremely difficult atmosphere in the household is affecting them too.  But according to the therapist, my poor attitude towards my wife is what is really affecting their views.  She essentially argued that because they are children, their views on us as parents don't really count for much, and so I should always support my wife, even if the children complain about how they are treated, and even if I sympathize with their complaints.  She essentially argued that I am teaching my children to disrespect their mother, by my own poor attitude towards my wife.  When I asked how I should behave when my children come crying to me because of horrible things their mother has said to them, she just said I should believe and support my wife.  But my own experience tells me that my wife does say horrible things, and then tries to spin them to seem less horrible - because she does the same thing to me too.

If I express any upset or frustration to my wife at the things she has said or done, she makes it seem like I am the problem, and claims I won't stop 'going on' about things, and have an inability to 'let go' of situations.  She never apologies for anything, never admits guilt, and never seems sorry about what she has done. 

I don't think I will go to another joint counselling session.  It seems a waste of money, and the therapist is so clearly in my wife's corner.  She essentially justified this today by arguing that she didn't want to see my wife go back into hospital (she briefly admitted herself to psychiatric hospital 8 years ago).

[crusty]

My BPD wife and I have been married for nearly six years. Back in December I got tired of her constant misdirections, inconsistent messages and telling me that all the mistakes she had made were my fault. I had an affair and ultimately left her for the other woman.

Over an extended period she begged me to come back and said she would forgive my affair. When we went to counselling it was instantly all about her and about my affair. She neatly pushed aside everything she had done and the first three sessions were instantly about what I had done to her. The abusive Facebook post, repeated broken promises and horrendoous debts didn't even get discussed.  It became like a three ring circus. Since then she has hit me and locked me in the house during arguments.

Right now she is telling me that she's changed that she realises she has issues but she still loves me and she wants to put it right. Even so when I raise things like her locking me in or the time she smashed a bottle of drink on my doorstep she seems to say that while she is sorry she did these things surely I must recognise that they were my fault.

She wants to try again and get more counselling but I have to say I am struggling with it slightly. I love her to bits and the chemistry is amazing but I don't know I can get the confidence to expose myself to potentially getting the BPD run around again. I think if you are going to get counselling then you absolutely have to make sure the counsellor will have experience in dealing with any specific underlying issues that either of you suffers from.

Certainly in our first round of marriage counselling the counsellor went straight for the victim act, as a result didn't get all the issues on the table and thus completely missed the broadness of our issuies.

[crusty]

I shoudl add we went to marriage counselling two years previously at my request. The counsellor called her out on her behaviour and she decided there was no point going anymore because he didn't get her.

[mcc503764]

How did MC work for those who did try it?

What went wrong?

What went well?

Did/Is your SO going to any individual T sessions?

How did MC work for those who did try it?

What an utter waste of time for me!  My x IS a therapist, so when we went for counseling, she would put on her own “therapist” face and manipulate the hell out of the situation. 

What went wrong?

I essentially had two therapists ganging up on me.  It was intimidating, abusive, and obviously MY feelings were minimized. 

What went well?

NOTHING AT ALL

Did/Is your SO going to any individual T sessions?

She said she was / is, but again, her being a therapist herself, I am sure she manipulates, omits, and adds to her stories to play the “victim” role.

[GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT]

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT This board is intended for general questions about BPD and other personality disorders, trait definitions, and related therapies and diagnostics. Topics should be formatted as a question. Please do not host topics related to the specific pwBPD in your life - those discussions should be hosted on an appropraite [L1] - [L4] board. You will find indepth information provided by our senior members in our workshop board discussions (click here).

[vwbug]

Having previous individual therapy will make a HUGE difference in whether or not MC works, since those who are willing to get individual treatment are the ones who recognize - at some level - that they need help and are willing to seek out and work towards getting healthier.

Sadly, a great many of the members here don't have partners who fit that criteria. They have partners who are deep in denial and blame, leaving the non the focus of everything that is wrong. Without the ability to self analyze, then progress is pretty much doomed from the start.

Adding to those poor statistics is that so many nons feel like helpless victims too, so they wind up feeling stymied and unable to enact any changes on their own.

And round and round you go 

My partner initially sought therapy when we first started dating which made me hopeful.  However, he stopped going, and began to blame me for all the problems in the relationship.  We tried couple's counseling, and that was not helpful.  I was often blamed for his outbursts, I was told by my ex and and the T that I was judgmental, but I was like, didn't you just judge me?  It was very hard, I'm quick to look at my piece and take too much responsibility, and I think my partner took advantage of that, and the two therapists we saw were lazy and also took advantage of that.  That is my piece - I abandoned myself. 

Anyhow, I shared all this to say, that going to therapy doesn't necessarily mean someone is willing to work on themselves, rather that they want to give the impression of working on themselves.

[k54]

I would say MT was a total unmitigated disaster and it has put my marriage on the brink of divorce. I have twin six year old boys so the consequences are not limited to me and my SO either.

I went to counseling with my wife after she attacked me during a fight. I asked her to seek counseling. She made a phone call, after which she decided based on that phone call that she was being emotionally abused. Soon after that she had a panic attack.

I was pretty depressed at this time due to a stressful job transition and our relationship troubles.

We went to counseling and our marriage counselor emphasized that we learn how to really listen to each other and really speak our truth. Quickly everything was based on my depression. We would make agreements in counseling and she would fail to follow them. When I tried to make her accountable, I was belittled. Sometimes the counselor failed to hold her accountable after promising to do so. I became distraught in counseling several times and the MT would belittle me and admonish me. Several friends of mine questioned me about our counselor, but I stayed committed to our process, until one day my wife declared, "I don't want to work on it anymore," as though she had ever wanted to work on it. I din't know about BPD at that point and was very confused. I was taking responsibility for everything.

My individual counselor has been good at helping me get my bearings these last few months. I have also read some good books about separation and BPD. I have worked to create a pretty peaceful home life, but its still pretty rough. I think our MT helped devalue me to the point that I don't know if my marriage will ever recover.

Recently though she has agreed to go to counseling with me again. She has been asking to go to mediation, and I have been resisting, but I got her to agree to go to counseling as a precursor to mediation. I will try hard to find a good counselor. Would appreciate any tips. Its interesting that she says she is frustrated that I wont agree to mediation but is relying on me to set things up. Totally typical.

[Leonard]

Counseling was a platform for my ex to talk about all the work she's been doing on her mental health, and MY issues, while I barely said a word because I was trying to save the marriage and didn't want to make matters worse by contradicting her. My ex has been in therapy for over a decade and is like a professional therapy patient and knows how to get positive feedback by talking their language, so she tried to align her self with the therapist to talk about me and even persuaded the counselor to write ME a script for some psych med.  During our few counseling visits she told the marriage counselor that her therapist thought that I have ADD, which was news to me because I've never met her therapist. At that point the marriage counselor started to question my ex and question me more about what specifically was going on. At that point my ex got very agitated and accused the counselor of taking my side and abruptly ended the counseling session and we never went back.

[2020]

We tried it a few years ago when we started the intense relationship. I was accused of still being in a relationship with the mother of my children; someone I had split from a good decade before. I was shocked by this accusation and saddened. So we went to therapy together.

We saw this guy called Pedro. He had a room above an internet cafe. Pedro had a beard, a pony tail, cheap shirt from Bali, fisherman pants, the whole bit. He was wearing those plastic sandles. He was burning essential oil on his bamboo bookshelf along side the self help books and a scatter of New Age Retreat leaflets. Pedro asks me what I think the key issue is here; what brings us to him today. I explained that my partner said I am in a relationship with my ex. He turns to my partner, says her name with a question mark. She says, "That's because he is". Pedro smiled. We left Pedro's office $120 poorer and the accustaions have continued ever since. At least Pedro got something out of it. Thankfully I now know the three letter reason for this... .

This has been an interesting read. I am at the point where I was thinking again that relationship counselling might be a good idea, but now I don't know if I'll bother.

[tvda]

I never 'really' went to marriage counseling with my BPDex, nor my HPDex.

However, due to weird circumstances I did have a couple of joint T sessions with the BPDex, and did have a candid conversation with the therapist of my HPDex. This raises serious deolontogical issues by the way, but that's not the topic of this thread.

What I noticed in both cases is that the therapist was used as a sort of willing audience for their drama and sob story. Of course during the first few sessions a therapist needs to listen and create a safe space for their clients, so for these few sessions they saw the therapist as a wonderful person.

This changed when the therapists started to call them out on their inconsistencies or lack of actions to make true progress. The dynamics quickly changed from "that nice, supportive, understanding therapist" to "that judgmental, controlling, unwilling to understand me therapist." And that was the end of both my exes' T sessions.

The need for drama and attention can pervert the therapeutic process strongly, and render it futile. Of course this is a generalisation based on my personal experiences.

[AnaisNin]

My husband and I have tried MC twice. The first time, after 4 sessions, he pushed the therapist's coffee table away so he could make an easier getaway, then he left the office and ran down the stairs. The second therapist we tried just was trying to work on "communication"-specifically trying to get him to see that there's a difference between asking for a Time out when a conversation gets uncomfortable between us, and stonewalling for days. I ended up just crying after each session because my husband painted me out to be abusive and just put me down in every session. At one point, the therapist just said "wow you guys just love fighting". and then during the 4th session, i was describing the financial abuse that was going on and the therapist told him flat out that he needs to stop withholding money from me, and he needs to pay the bills. My husband left the session abruptly and then refused to go back because "the therapist took my side"

so yeah- typical MC does not work and I would argue it's even detrimental. my husband recently asked me to go again and i said "i'll go to MC IF we find someone who is familiar with abuse and DBT skills and really understands BPD and narcissism. My husband didn't like that so...no more therapy for us.

There are some DBT programs out there which offer individual therapy to the person wBPD, as well as a MC component. That would be the way to do IMO.

[Glory B]

My husband, who is not formally diagnosed as a BPD, certainly manifests many of the BPD traits that I’ve read about. Our marriage is in a shambles. I’m breaking down - headaches, stomachaches, often I’m unable to eat or sleep. His emotional cycles are coming around quicker and have escalated in their irrationality. His verbal and emotional assaults against me over the course of our 24 year marriage have wounded me to my core. Only recently have I reached out for help from a counselor. I talked with the counselor about the abuse, asking her for help in overcoming its effects. I emphatically stated that I am not being physically assaulted. She sent the police to my home that evening after my session with her. THAT really didn’t help me. My husband was enraged. So I let go of trying to get help for myself.
Since then, I reluctantly agreed to marriage counseling. My husband pushed hard for it. I knew it was premature. We would be better served with individual therapy first. My husband was even agreeable to be evaluated by a psychiatrist in addition to the marriage counseling.   So, first session of marriage counseling was worse than I even imagined it would be. He immediately stated a litany of  all the ways I’ve mistreated him. He was in victim mode big time. The counselor asked for my side of the story. It was very different than his. Soon after I spoke up for myself to the counselor, my husband announced that he did not love me and our relationship is dead. He said it with a smirk. I cried all the way home in the car. My heart was crushed. My husband said nothing. At home, he poured himself a drink, went out to the back yard, talked and laughed with the neighbors, played with the dog, and relaxed with his drink. I was stunned by his nonchalance after the session. He seemed very pleased with himself. I was broken; he was enjoying himself. I realized then that I would no longer participate in the cycles. We separated. That’s my marriage counseling experience!  Now that we are separated, my BPD ( diagnosis or not, I believe her is afflicted with BPD) is accusing me of dishonesty with  our finances, he’s telling friends I am the cause of all our problems, and he…he is the victim of my emotional and verbal abuse. There’s no going back for me. I am determined to recover from the abuse.  The best chance I have to accomplish that is to live apart from him where his yelling, name calling, accusations, and emotional chaos cannot reach me.
My husband cancelled the psychiatrist appointment. In his mind, I am the problem, and I am gone, so problem solved.