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Author Topic: Just angry about all her mess  (Read 6822 times)
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« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2010, 08:48:22 AM »

Look, its too simplistic to say that we "allowed" the abuse and the cheating to happen. Living with a BPD, what traps you is the idealization and total love they give you first up.  When the cracks start to appear, you give them the benefit of the doubt, because you can't believe that a person who loves you so much, really means the derogatory thing they just said to you.

We don't know about  BPD at this stage.  The decline of their behaviour is slow and insideous.  The make-up sex falsely reassurres us that this won't happen again.  The loss of self esteem is also slow and insideous.  You start to wonder is it YOU? What am I doing wrong, to make her so?  Your efforts go unnapreciated so you try harder.  Its not that we' re weak, were just bewildered like kangaroos staring at the oncoming headlights of a truck... .surely it will stop before it hits me (again).

It is really difficult without knowing about BPD to set boundaries.

This is outstanding and well stated IMHO johmel.
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Colombian Chick
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« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2010, 11:00:18 AM »

 
Excerpt
Living with a BPD, what traps you is the idealization and total love they give you first up.

REAL love doesn't envolve "idealization", and it surely doesn't evolve in a short amount of time. That type of "love" is of a childlike form. Emotionally healthy adults do not "love" this way. There love comes with time, with mutual respect, and trust. The fact that this part of the courtship is what "trapped" us, shows a lack of self worth. The person who suffers from low self worth usually requires that boost of ego from their partner because they can't feel it for themselves. Most healthy adults with a good amount of self worth DO NOT need "idealization" or "total love" in the beginning of the courtship. It will push them away because it feels like enmeshment rather than a connection.

Excerpt
When the cracks start to appear, you give them the benefit of the doubt, because you can't believe that a person who loves you so much, really means the derogatory thing they just said to you.

This statement reminded me of what I posted earlier:

Adults can let go of the good things if the one bad thing outweighs them: "Even though I'm crazy about you and you're a great provider, I can't stay with you while you are such a liar and refuse help." Are you seduced by the advantages of a partner while you disregard, deny, or liet to yourself about his/her disadvantages? Or do you act according to the full truth, even though you wished it were not so? How much self-nurturance and tolerance for grief it takes to disregard that "even though"!

Excerpt
We don't know about  BPD at this stage.  The decline of their behaviour is slow and insideous.

No we don't know about BPD, unless you're a mental health professional. But the  |> are very present, and we surely can tell "something is wrong". And again, here is another part of my post that fits this statement:

Are you seduced by the advantages of a partner while you disregard, deny, or lie to yourself about his/her disadvantages?  Or do you act according to the full truth, even though you wished it were not so? How much self-nurturance and tolerance for grief it takes to disregard that "even though"!

Excerpt
The make-up sex falsely reassurres us that this won't happen again.

When you suffer from low self worth, make-up sex is a form of connection and closeness. The person feels "loved" again, and it gives them a sense of security about the relationship. Because it is the ONLY "security" they are getting since the relationship is completely dysfunctional. The person wants to stay in the relationship despreatly and will believe anything (even though the facts show otherwise) in order for the relationship to continue. This is another form of codependence. The "Because you please me sexually, because we have been together for so long, because I don't know whether I will ever find someone else, I can't let you go - even though you do not meet me at my soul/ adult level."

Excerpt
The loss of self esteem is also slow and insideous.

The low selfesteem has been there since way before the relationship started.

Excerpt
You start to wonder is it YOU?

We instinctively know there is something wrong with US, because the relationship is dysfunctional, but yet, we refuse to end it.

Excerpt
What am I doing wrong, to make her so?  Your efforts go unnapreciated so you try harder.  Its not that we' re weak, were just bewildered like kangaroos staring at the oncoming headlights of a truck... .surely it will stop before it hits me (again).

This is the kicker. Because of our emotional insecurity and low self esteem. We actually think we can MAKE someone feel xyz by sacrafizing ourselves in the process. We feel unnapreciated because we THINK this is a healthy behavior. When it clearly isn't. You sacrafize yourselve for someone who has 0 respect for you, but yet, you want them to appreciate your efforts?

Excerpt
It is really difficult without knowing about BPD to set boundaries.

BPD or not, boundaries are necessary in ANY relationship. If you had to learn them after BPD, then it's clear that the person had issues way before BPD. The only thing the pwBPD did was bring them out to the surface in an extreme way.

"Taking responsability for everything in your life gives you the power to change it. Taking responsability for nothing ensures that you'll stay a victim"

David Viscott

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Manon46
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« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2010, 11:21:58 AM »

Well CC,

I can nothing else than to agree with what you wrote...

I also said before, if you have a good sense of selfesteem, knowing yourself ,knowing what is acceptable and so on... no BPD/NPD enters your life any further than the front door...

I think this are just life lessons, we have to learn because we didn't in our childhood...

It gives us heartache and pain, sadness and feelings of loss, and i even didn't know that that was possible to feel...

But it gives us very worthy skills and tools to spend the rest of our lives, so in that way i am greatfull to had the chance to learn instead of waiting for another prince on a white horse... and asking myself why why why... .and feeling sorry for myself...

This makes me  feel a lot more confident in life... and almost nothing in the future scares me anymore...

It is a life without fear,without being insecure,it feels good, it feels solid,

I think we had kinder lessons before this one, but never learned, it took something more... .

And there will be people who don't learn  from this experience, and keep staying the victom and are heading for another dysfunctional relation... .i am glad i took the lessen provided to me...

And in no way i want to say that it isnt painfull, it is, it was, and sometimes still is... everyone has his right to grieve, and go through the pain on their own terms... it is however dangerous to stay in blaming, anger, i think that is what we want to say...

You have to take control,over yourself and be greatfull that you have given the opportunity  to learn so much about yourself... That doesn't mean it still once in while hurts for the lost dreams... x
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« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2010, 01:43:37 PM »

Excerpt
I also said before, if you have a good sense of selfesteem, knowing yourself ,knowing what is acceptable and so on... no BPD/NPD enters your life any further than the front door...

I couldn't agree with you more. This is why pwBPD latch on to people with low self worth, they are easy to manipulate and despreat to stay "connected".  This is why we have to work on ourselves, take responsability for ourselves, change ourselves, improve ourselves. Rather than focus on someone whom you have 0 responsability or control of.

Excerpt
I think this are just life lessons, we have to learn because we didn't in our childhood...

What we didn't get when we were kids, security, love, affection, acceptance, and attention we will despreatly search for them as adults. Which ends up in some form of codependence or low selfesteem, leaving us easy prey to be taken advantage of. But in order for this to stop, we need to reflect on OUR issues, instead of looking outside of us as the cause of all our problems. We all have that inner child we need to connect with in order to heal those wounds that haunt us as adults. When you take care of the child inside, you learn to nurture yourself.

Excerpt
But it gives us very worthy skills and tools to spend the rest of our lives, so in that way i am greatfull to had the chance to learn instead of waiting for another prince on a white horse... and asking myself why why why... .and feeling sorry for myself...

Feeling sorry for ourselves or walking around with this "I'm just a victim" mentallity will guarantee us another dysfunctional relationship. Not only intimately, but at work, with our kids, with our friends, and anyone who we come in contact with. Taking responsability for ourselves gives us the opportunity to change.

Excerpt
This makes me  feel a lot more confident in life... and almost nothing in the future scares me anymore...

It is a life without fear,without being insecure,it feels good, it feels solid,

I think we had kinder lessons before this one, but never learned, it took something more... .

Selfesteem, security in yourself, makes you in charge of your life. No more will you feel like a feather in the wind. No more will you ALLOW anyone in your life not worthy of your time and effort.

Excerpt
And in no way i want to say that it isnt painfull, it is, it was, and sometimes still is... everyone has his right to grieve, and go through the pain on their own terms... it is however dangerous to stay in blaming, anger, i think that is what we want to say...

You have to take control,over yourself and be greatfull that you have given the opportunity  to learn so much about yourself... That doesn't mean it still once in while hurts for the lost dreams...

Oh it is painful, not only will you have to deal with your current situation. But you will have to face past unhealed wounds that will surface. This is what people are scared of facing, but only until you face them, will you be able to move on, change, and take charge of your life and yourself worth.
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« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2010, 02:48:23 PM »

Wise girl you are! Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

It is why they say : Face your fears... .x
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« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2010, 08:00:18 PM »

I have to be completely honest about this post. I am not new to this site even though it has me as a newbie. I started this post as a vent because of some hurtful reflexion of rotten actions that has taken place in my life while dealing with a borderline. I had the understanding that this site was for people lilke myelf and others who have been hurt to come and vent and discuss their situations, and recieve support and encouragement. That is what I understood to be the case. I havent been on in a while but I started posting back in january. I have seen people vent angrily about their situations and that was ok. Now this is the issue im having; when I made this post I was just venting my feelings and hurt. I was releasing my frustrations, and sharing my reflexion. I did not feel encouraged or supported as much as being subtly told that im childish and that I should'nt feel what im feeling. A response was made to someone else who posted a response about how would you know your dealing with a borderline in the beginning, and the response given him was you wouldnt unless your a mental health provider. That is just it! None of us on here are mental health providers unless otherwise you would be established on here as that. We all came here because of hurt and pain caused by someone else. We were effected by the actions of another person, so here we are. To be hurt or angry in response to deliberate and rotten actions is normal regardless of self esteem issue, low self worth, lack of confidence, etc... The bottom line is it still hurts and is painful. One of the focuses for people with BPD to gain in therapy is for them to take responsibilty for their actions, so it is a two way street. Yes everyone has a part to play, but to just say you have the issues and because of your issues you caused the relationship with the borderline to be the way it is, is far from reality.

We all need each other here because of what we all share, and that is the borderline experience.
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Colombian Chick
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« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2010, 08:31:25 PM »

Excerpt
I had the understanding that this site was for people lilke myelf and others who have been hurt to come and vent and discuss their situations, and recieve support and encouragement. That is what I understood to be the case.

We completely understand how hurt you felt and how much you want to vent, we've ALL been in your same situation. In no way are we telling you that this isn't normal as part of your recovery. As posted earlier:

Excerpt
And in no way i want to say that it isnt painfull, it is, it was, and sometimes still is... everyone has his right to grieve, and go through the pain on their own terms... it is however dangerous to stay in blaming, anger, i think that is what we want to say...

Excerpt
Now this is the issue im having; when I made this post I was just venting my feelings and hurt. I was releasing my frustrations, and sharing my reflexion. I did not feel encouraged or supported as much as being subtly told that im childish and that I should'nt feel what im feeling.

I am sorry you feel this way x. We are not telling you that you shouldn't feel the way you are feeling. In no way was that ever mentioned. We completely understand what you are going through since we've been there ourselves. What we are trying to support and encourage you to do is to not only focus on the pwBPD, but to focus on the reasons why you were attracted to someone like that. As mentioned before, sometimes hearing that we have our own issues is too hard to hear.

Excerpt
A response was made to someone else who posted a response about how would you know your dealing with a borderline in the beginning, and the response given him was you wouldnt unless your a mental health provider. That is just it! None of us on here are mental health providers unless otherwise you would be established on here as that.

Yes I did post that the only way you could know that the person has that type of disorder is if you are a mental health professional. But you also need to read what else I posted:

Excerpt
But the Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)  are very present, and we surely can tell "something is wrong".

Excerpt
We all came here because of hurt and pain caused by someone else. We were effected by the actions of another person, so here we are. To be hurt or angry in response to deliberate and rotten actions is normal regardless of self esteem issue, low self worth, lack of confidence, etc... The bottom line is it still hurts and is painful.

Yes we are all here because of the pain we felt. Yes, it is understandable to be hurt and angry because of something that happened to us. BUT, was it something we contributed on? If it is, how can we change that unless we reflect on ourselves, versus reflecting on the other person.

How much help can you receive if you vent about your frustrations, but get no responses on what to do about it? You can write about how much that person has done, how manipulative they were, how they lied, how they raged, how they hurt you. But if I respond with yes they are sick people, how can that help you? The fact of the matter is they are sick, they are not well. And, you can't change what has happened. The only thing you can do is learn about yourselve and focus on figuring out why you were attracted to this. These "sick people" can only do as much harm as you allow it.

Yes, it hurts and it hurts A LOT. No one has said it doesn't.

Excerpt
Yes everyone has a part to play, but to just say you have the issues and because of your issues you caused the relationship with the borderline to be the way it is, is far from reality.

The issues WE have are the once that allowed the relationship to go on as long as it did.  That's what we are trying to say, not that because of YOUR issues the relationship didn't workout. Because that is far from reality. A relationship with a mentally ill (not recovered) person will NEVER work out, no matter how much you try.
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Skip
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« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2010, 08:59:47 PM »

I had the understanding that this site was for people lilke myelf and others who have been hurt to come and vent and discuss their situations, and recieve support and encouragement. That is what I understood to be the case.

Well, it might be a bit more than that.  We really want to be a healing site.  Anger an venting is very early in that process - its part of grieving - and grieving (see below) is just a stage - there is grieving, self inventory, commitment to change, practicing new lifestyles.

  1. Denial – "I feel fine."; "This can't be happening, not to me."

     :)enial is usually only a temporary defense for the individual. This feeling is generally replaced with heightened awareness of situations and individuals that will be left behind after death.

  2. Anger – "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; "Who is to blame?"

     Once in the second stage, the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue. Because of anger, the person is very difficult to care for due to misplaced feelings of rage and envy. Any individual that symbolizes life or energy is subject to projected resentment and jealousy.

  3. Bargaining – "Just let me live to see my children graduate."; "I'll do anything for a few more years."; "I will give my life savings if... ."

     The third stage involves the hope that the individual can somehow postpone or delay death. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made with a higher power in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. Psychologically, the individual is saying, "I understand I will die, but if I could just have more time... ."

  4. Depression – "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die... .What's the point?"; "I miss my loved one, why go on?"

     :)uring the fourth stage, the dying person begins to understand the certainty of death. Because of this, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time crying and grieving. This process allows the dying person to disconnect oneself from things of love and affection. It is not recommended to attempt to cheer up an individual who is in this stage. It is an important time for grieving that must be processed.

  5. Acceptance – "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."

     This final stage comes with peace and understanding of the death that is approaching. Generally, the person in the fifth stage will want to be left alone. Additionally, feelings and physical pain may be non-existent. This stage has also been described as the end of the dying struggle.

We say this in the guidelines:

Members shall be patient and understanding of other members that are in different stages of the learning or healing process.

I think this is really what you are seeing here - just some members in different stages of healing.  Clearly, there are a lot of caring and very sincere replies in this thread.

I hope that helps... .

Skippy
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Manon46
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« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2010, 03:12:43 AM »

Thank you Skip for explaining,

I am sorry you feel not encouraged by our replies,   they were absolutely written to help you and support you.

We all know what you are going through, we have all been there, no doubt about that... and still there are moments of anger and frustration over what happened.

And ofcourse it is ok to vent and let you frustrations out here, we all did, and we were all looking for validation at some point.

The misstake you make is to think that we blame you for anything... that is not the case... there is no blame... there is no judgement... and you are defending yourself... it might feel that way for you,but in fact you are doing exactly what you are doing probably all the time... .doubting yourself, your feelings, thinking it isnot ok to feel the way you feel...

It is ok, to feel sad,angry,heartbroken,hurt, of course that is what you were, or still are...

So in no way we are saying that it is out of line what you are feeling, it isn't.

It is horrifying what they can do and what they did to us, it is just as horrifying that we accepted it.

But that is not allways what we want to hear... .I remember that my T said to me, everyone is getting the relation they deserve... .I was furious when she  said that... How could she say that i deserved something like that... .it felt like slap in my face... the saying behind that is, when we allow what is happening, we do think that we deserve nothing more than what we are getting... .low selfesteem... I thougt she blamed me also... but she only pointed out that it was indeed what I thought...

More adult is to look how that statement can be true.

To think, ok i am angry, i have the right to be angry, but it is done and can't be undone,how do I not stay stuck in anger, pain, hurt because that doesn't change what they did.

So it is better to look at things what you can change... and that is you...

We understand very well that you want validation for your feelings, well it is validated here, and instead of what we wrote to you, we could have said : I am so sorry for you, yes it is awfull what she did, of course you are angry,she is the b****,

take care... .

You would still be angry and have nothing to go on... .It was because of the hugs the validation what made me feel better over here, but it were also very much the tips, the articles,the changing focus answers that helped me much further... .

In every book you read about this relations you will be pointed to yourself, because there lies the healing, the discovery,the future, a better future,if you are willing to learn and listen you will get past this, you will feel better and not only in relations.

And more important, it will not happen again to you.

Nothing on these boards has the intention to blame you or set you straight... .we are trying to help out,by different ways,and everything has the intention to give you different insights,tools by all of us.

So please try not to feel blamed or pointed at, but take it as it is mend to be... help  x
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hope4gr8erdayz

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« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2010, 06:04:31 AM »

I went to those sites and they are really, really good. Thank You! Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2010, 08:22:46 AM »

Thank you Skip for explaining,

I am sorry you feel not encouraged by our replies,   they were absolutely written to help you and support you.

We all know what you are going through, we have all been there, no doubt about that... and still there are moments of anger and frustration over what happened.

And ofcourse it is ok to vent and let you frustrations out here, we all did, and we were all looking for validation at some point.

The misstake you make is to think that we blame you for anything... that is not the case... there is no blame... there is no judgement... and you are defending yourself... it might feel that way for you,but in fact you are doing exactly what you are doing probably all the time... .doubting yourself, your feelings, thinking it isnot ok to feel the way you feel...

We understand very well that you want validation for your feelings, well it is validated here, and instead of what we wrote to you, we could have said : I am so sorry for you, yes it is awfull what she did, of course you are angry,she is the b****,

take care... .

You would still be angry and have nothing to go on... .It was because of the hugs the validation what made me feel better over here, but it were also very much the tips, the articles,the changing focus answers that helped me much further... .

Lovely advice Manon!

Support comes in different packages and not always recognised or appreciated at

the very moment it is given. Timing is key... .tips, advice and general support given now can

be useful for getting through/after the 'natural' anger & venting stage.

I totally understand you though Hope and why you wrote what you wrote, as will all.

When you are trying to talk to family and friends about how devastated you are by this

experience. They will be like, 'Yes, I know, it's bad. Just forget about her and move on.

You'll meet someone else... .Hey, did you see that programme on TV last night?'.

When you are STILL hurting and angry and it has cut DEEP, you realise new things every

day that the BPD did and the depths she went to that makes you 'freshly' angry and freshly

hurt! You are angry with yourself for believing, trusting, investing, giving her ANOTHER chance

only for her to take you for a ride... .You can't always share that with family for 101 reasons,

to do with you (shame, guilt, etc.) and to do with them (lack of real understanding, impatience, etc.).

Angry with having to deal with this at all! Where do you go with all those 'intense' feelings?... .

You find a site like this which is a God send, with others that have been through similar experiences

and you feel NOW I can let go of my anger and vent and express how I REALLY feel and I will be supported in that

by people that REALLY will understand how I FEEL and what I have gone through.

Instead, you find some that are voicing the fact that we should look at our role to play in our hurtful experience

and take responsibility for it, learn from it! WHAT? What happened to my support?   This is the ONE place I thought I could sound off about how I've been wronged and get support and people are telling me to look at myself?  ?

The thing is... .people are at different stages and will offer support that will represent that... .

Hope, just take what you need and rest assured NO-ONE is blaming you or not supporting you.

We are all listening, talking, advising and supporting each other and contributing different but

'valuable perspectives and insights' from just our sometimes clouded, hurt, angry and confused ones.

Don't stop venting... .

Take care   x










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« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2010, 03:39:25 PM »

... .I have seen people vent angrily about their situations and that was ok. Now this is the issue im having; when I made this post I was just venting my feelings and hurt. I was releasing my frustrations, and sharing my reflexion. I did not feel encouraged or supported as much as being subtly told that im childish and that I should'nt feel what im feeling. A response was made to someone else who posted a response about how would you know your dealing with a borderline in the beginning, and the response given him was you wouldnt unless your a mental health provider. That is just it! None of us on here are mental health providers unless otherwise you would be established on here as that. We all came here because of hurt and pain caused by someone else. We were effected by the actions of another person, so here we are. To be hurt or angry in response to deliberate and rotten actions is normal regardless of self esteem issue, low self worth, lack of confidence, etc... The bottom line is it still hurts and is painful. One of the focuses for people with BPD to gain in therapy is for them to take responsibilty for their actions, so it is a two way street. Yes everyone has a part to play, but to just say you have the issues and because of your issues you caused the relationship with the borderline to be the way it is, is far from reality... .

hope4gr8erdayz

I have enjoyed your posts. You seem to have a great deal of clarity about your feeling and motivations. I agree with most, if not all, of what you have posted. I think you've hit upon some important issues. 

I have witnessed a tendency to wrongly label PTSD as co-dependency.* These are not the same issues though either one, or both, may manifest as a result of protracted engagement with a BPD. I've also seen co-dependency wrongly diagnosed in battered women and substance abusers, when in fact, the overriding issue is trauma. A wrong diagnosis can, and often does, have adverse consequences as the treatment for one is not the same as for the other. (*In addition to codependency and Generalized PTSD, secondary BPD is a potential third factor.)

During the "honeymoon" phase of a relationship with a BPD, symptoms are typically masked. All is sweetness, light and kick-ass passionate (at least it was in my relationship). When the mask inevitably drops, an entirely different person shows up (Mr./MS. Hyde). When this happened in my relationship, I didn't go to codependency, I went into shock. I have a longstanding diagnosis of PTSD and it's taken me several months to shake myself out of freeze mode (i.e. fight, flight or freeze).

Now that I am aware of what has been triggered in me - trauma not codependency - I am much better able to advocate for myself and put appropriate boundaries in place with my partner. She hates this, of course, but I am feeling much more empowered and "safe" in my own skin. I am disengaging. 

If I had bought into, accommodated, and settled for my partner's BPD behavior, I would have been codependent. Shock, however, is not co-dependence. (The term "co-dependence" is a much over used and abused term, anyway.)

When people have labeled my reactions to my BPD partner as co-dependence, I have not found it helpful. It misapprehends what it is I'm actually struggling with in my life. Plus, who needs to issue disclaimers and rebuttals when what you really need is understanding and support.   


A working knowledge Kübler-Ross' Seven Stages of Grief is helpful. I think this entry on the grief cycle is worth sharing, I quote:


Sticking and cycling

Getting stuck

A common problem with the above cycle is that people get stuck in one phase. Thus a person may become stuck in denial, never moving on from the position of not accepting the inevitable future. When it happens, they still keep on denying it, such as the person who has lost their job still going into the city only to sit on a park bench all day.

Getting stuck in denial is common in 'cool' cultures (such as in Britain, particularly Southern England) where expressing anger is not acceptable. The person may feel that anger, but may then repress it, bottling it up inside.

Likewise, a person may be stuck in permanent anger (which is itself a form of flight from reality) or repeated bargaining. It is more difficult to get stuck in active states than in passivity, and getting stuck in depression is perhaps a more common ailment.

Going in cycles

Another trap is that when a person moves on to the next phase, they have not completed an earlier phase and so move backwards in cyclic loops that repeat previous emotion and actions. Thus, for example, a person that finds bargaining not to be working, may go back into anger or denial.

Cycling is itself a form of avoidance of the inevitable, and going backwards in time may seem to be a way of extending the time before the perceived bad thing happens.


www.changingminds.org/disciplines/change_management/kubler_ross/kubler_ross.htm



     
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« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2010, 06:39:13 PM »

Excerpt
It makes me sick to my stomach that someone can do the foul things to someone she has done to me.

I am trully sorry you feel this way  x.

Now for the hard part. I am pretty direct so I don't sugar coat.

The only reason she was able to do the things she did to you is because YOU allowed it. If YOU don't change and work on your bounderies and selfesteem, this pattern of abuse will continue onto future relationships. Other people don't respect you unless you respect yourself first.

Excerpt
It is sad that a person will do horrilbe things to people and then blame them for their actions. It is crazy!

This is how I would write it to you:

It is sad that a YOU allow people to do horrilbe things to YOU and then YOU blame them for their actions. It is crazy!

I respect your viewpoint, cc, but I think this is a little more brutal than it needs to be. THEY do what THEY do. THEY are responsible for THEIR actions. We don't need any more blame than we are already receiving from these sick people. I would hope that a non could understand that.
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« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2010, 07:10:25 PM »

Excerpt
I respect your viewpoint, cc, but I think this is a little more brutal than it needs to be. THEY do what THEY do. THEY are responsible for THEIR actions. We don't need any more blame than we are already receiving from these sick people. I would hope that a non could understand that.

x

Read the rest of my posts, I hope you can understand what I am trying to say.
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« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2010, 08:03:43 PM »

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Cycling is itself a form of avoidance of the inevitable, and going backwards in time may seem to be a way of extending the time before the perceived bad thing happens.

This is a good point. "The avoidance of the inevitable." Going backwards in time may seem to be a way of extending the time *before* the perceived bad thing happens.  But once the "bad" thing happens- In order to stay with this person- *you have to deny it* if you are to go back in time before the bad thing happened... .And whatever may happen in the future- you can always cycle back to the time before it has happened- forever and ever and ever and ever... .

Acknowledging that, in order to stay with this person- you have to LOOK like you knew bad behavior wasn't happening- OR- you have to look like the bad stuff was happening- and you chose to dismiss the bad behavior by pretending all sorts of pretzel logic, i.e.; it wont happen again.

Where this logic breaks down is in looking at the whole scheme of how a BPD relationship functions. This requires a bit of effort, and once we get out of the Fog- we can see our part in this.

Are we good people?  Good people generally fight for Underdogs, the people who cannot fight for themselves; people who are genuinely in need of our help.

But what happens when we, as good people, are taken advantage of? Initially we cant hide the fact that we are being used. We suffer the shock of feeling used. First times a charm! Second and third and fourth... .well, our feelings are hurt. That's when we swirl about these feelings of denial, bargaining, anger in rapid cycles. If we dont come to acceptance that the relationship has run its course and we need to take better care of ourselves (so that we don't prolong our agony)- we will make all kinds of deluded bargaining for staying.

In order to stay with this person after being shocked by their behavior- you have to LOOK like you knew it wasn't happening when it happens again- OR- you have to look like you expected it to happen- and you choose to dismiss the bad behavior or think you can control it in some way. Either way, it is a form of control that is your own behavior talking to deny the abuse.

Because you know, *you know*- that your efforts are wasted on a person who sucked you into their dysfunction based upon your goodness.  And now your goodness is a bargaining chip to continue your pain.

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« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2010, 08:30:15 PM »

Hi everyone,

I think there is quite a lot of wisdom to be found throughout this entire thread.  Wisdom is great.  It can help us avoid falling into trouble spots.  In fact I think a lot of people (who read here) have been helped by a lot of the things written.  I just wonder if it's the best wisdom to share with hope4gr8erdayz who started this thread.  I don't know.  I haven't followed his story very closely.  For that, I'm sorry.

I am somewhat reminded of a story I first heard from a West Wing episode:

Excerpt
"This guy's walking down the street when he falls in a hole. The walls are so steep he can't get out.

   "A doctor passes by and the guy shouts up, 'Hey you. Can you help me out?' The doctor writes a prescription, throws it down in the hole and moves on.

   "Then a priest comes along and the guy shouts up, 'Father, I'm down in this hole can you help me out?' The priest writes out a prayer, throws it down in the hole and moves on

   "Then a friend walks by, 'Hey, Joe, it's me can you help me out?' And the friend jumps in the hole. Our guy says, 'Are you stupid? Now we're both down here.' The friend says, 'Yeah, but I've been down here before and I know the way out.'"  

I suppose this story can be interpreted in a ton of different ways.  I'll share how I choose to interpret it.

Sometimes when someone gets stuck in a place and is asking for help, different kinds of people will share their knowledge and wisdom that they think is most suitable to help them; then again, it may not be what the stuck person needs (or expects).  This is not to denigrate the value of their knowledge and wisdom.  But sometimes all we need from each other is just the knowledge that others have been here before, especially if the only person who can climb out of the hole is the person who is stuck.

Getting out of our own "holes" is a process.  And sometimes there is no rushing the process.  We take however long we need to take.

I respect your viewpoint, cc, but I think this is a little more brutal than it needs to be. THEY do what THEY do. THEY are responsible for THEIR actions. We don't need any more blame than we are already receiving from these sick people. I would hope that a non could understand that.

I think what CC wrote might be heard harshly.  I believe however that she means well.  

"They" do do what they do.  And to a degree they are responsible for their actions.  Then again, they are inflicted with a mental disorder which greatly affects their behaviors and actions.  To what degree is it choice and to what degree is it disorder?  They are "sick people," are they to be blamed for their own sickness?

I am not a judge.  I cannot say.  I can say that I now have a great deal more compassion than I once did.  There was a time when I felt a great deal of anger perhaps even some hatred towards people with BPD; certainly I felt anger and hatred towards my exBPDgf and my uBPD mother.  But not so much now.  Then again, it has been a while since I have first learned about BPD.   I believe that for everyone, such indifference (and perhaps compassion) will eventually come.  But it need not happen now.  Nor perhaps should it happen now.

I think we are all talking about different aspects of our own recovery.  I don't think anyone is "right" or "wrong."

As I see it, there are the defined stages as Skip has summarized:

Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance.

I don't think there is any one phase that is "better" than any other.  I don't think that someone who has finally "accepted" what has happened, will argue that "gee, it was certainly unnecessary to go through denial, anger, bargaining, or depression."  I really do believe I had to go through what I went through.  If I did not then, I would have later.  Perhaps, if I had gone through it earlier, I might not have learned the lessons I did, and I that would be my loss.

The process is the process.  It is what it is.

Telling someone who is in denial, that they should be angry probably breaks a few guideline rules here.

Telling someone who is in depression that they should just get over themselves and move over to acceptance, might be appropriate in some situations.  It also might be seen as a little un-compassionate, depending upon how depressed they are feeling and how recently they only started to face such feelings.

Telling someone who is in the anger phase that they should just skip it all and go into the acceptance phase might just be missing the point.  But that's just my opinion.  For all I know, I'm just a wonk.

Best wishes, Schwing
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« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2010, 09:57:50 PM »

Excerpt
The process is the process.  It is what it is.

Loved your post  x.

Yes, a process is a process and it takes time. Some of us are in a completely different phase and we share how we got there. It doesn't mean that everyone will go through the same process and in the same time frame. We all have our own emotional timing.

A lot of wisdom has been shared here. I see every post as "Maps". Our healing process took us all through different "paths". My "Map" took me to codependence and other issues I had. Chaz's "Map" takes you to PTSD, and so on and so forth. Because some of us are already in our destination we pass the map along to see if that "Map" can help him/her get to where they want to go. But where that person needs to go will only be discovered when he/she looks within. These "Maps" offer ways to get to a destination, it is up to YOU to decide which "Map" is the right "Path" for you. And, sometimes none of these "Maps" are helpful because where he/she needs to get is not in OUR "Maps", so he/she will come up with their own map, that can combine some of Chaz's "Path" and mine. But at least they got a chance to view different "Maps" and was able to determine which one best suit him/her.

Everyone has to go through the phases, all we've tried to do is help them find ways to get through them.
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« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2010, 10:05:31 PM »

I went to those sites and they are really, really good. Thank You! Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

  I'm really glad you liked them  Smiling (click to insert in post).

This is all different information that can help you get through this rough time. I recommend looking into PTSD as Chaz mentioned. Her findings are very interesting and can probably help you as well  x/
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« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2010, 11:10:10 AM »

Excerpt
I found some peace

  x

I am so happy to hear this. Now that some of the pain has been lifted off your chest, you will be able to explore more about yourself and heal. Take this time to take care of the person who needs it the most, YOU. All of the love and support you have shown your exBPD, redirect it to YOU. Becuase you will value it and cherish it more than anyone.

One day you will look at the whole experience and think to yourself "Thanks to that painful experience, I am at peace with myself."
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« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2010, 11:55:33 AM »

One day you will look at the whole experience and think to yourself "Thanks to that painful experience, I am at peace with myself."

Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post)

I personally won't ever be thankful for it... but I do get what you are saying.  By dealing with difficulties in our lives and using the difficulties we face as a way to learn more about ourselves we can really grow as a person and figure out what is important to us in our lives. 

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« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2010, 12:42:52 PM »

Excerpt
Do you have anything about ways to fix the issues mentioned in that article?

Each individual is different, I don't know your childhood history, so I don't know what could have triggered this in you.

Maybe if you PM me with what you feel could be a contributed cause, i.e. father loss, mother loss, neglect, physical abuse towards you (or family members), etc. I can research it for you  Smiling (click to insert in post).

My experience was father loss. When I came to the US my father stayed in Colombia. I was able to see him in the summer time, but I felt abandoned. When my xBPD left me, he triggered the abandonment pain I had been hiding underneath the surface. So when I cried for him despreatly not to leave me, I was actually crying out to my father.

When I was 7 years old my dad went with me and my family to the airport to say good bye. He was crying unconsolably while he held me. But I didn't cry because I was in shock. Everytime I tell this story I cry, like I am now, because that was the root of my pain. I was despreatly trying to hold on to my ex because of that wound. When I finally realized that the pain I had felt and didn't express at the time, I was expressing it with my ex when he left.

The book that helped me understand is called :

"Longing for Dad: Father Loss and Its Impact"
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« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2010, 01:29:13 PM »

Another book that can help you is called "When the Past is Present: Healing the Emotional Wounds that Sabotage Our Relationships" by David Richo.

I just got the book and will begin reading, so I don't know yet if it's good. But I do like the author so I'm pretty sure it is  Smiling (click to insert in post).
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« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2010, 01:41:30 PM »

Well that bothers me also quite a while...

I was not abused, have both my parents, not neglected, i am still not so sure what triggered it by me...

can these wounds also arise in puberty ?  
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« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2010, 02:33:27 PM »

Well that bothers me also quite a while...

I was not abused, have both my parents, not neglected, i am still not so sure what triggered it by me...

can these wounds also arise in puberty ?  

When you start writting about your life, or speaking about it, they will surface on their own. Sometimes having both parents doesn't guarantee that your childhood needs were met. Something triggered this in us, what the trigger is is hard to pin point. Sometimes writting a journal about our life and letting the emotions come out while you are writting can help. Just make sure that you are a comfortable environment where you can express them if you need to.

I remember when I began to write, I started crying when I wrote certain things that happened in my life. I didn't fight them, I just let those feelings come out.
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« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2010, 02:40:17 PM »

Yes, i did that various times, it seems i don't have a lot of memories before 13, not bad ones, not specific good ones, but during 13-18 i felt like a total unwanted, awfull child, caused my mother heartfalure,depression, why couldn't i be like my sister, kind of stuff like that, maybe it does lay there... .I think that will allways be a vulnarable point, but well protected now... x
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« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2010, 02:54:18 PM »

Yes, i did that various times, it seems i don't have a lot of memories before 13, not bad ones, not specific good ones, but during 13-18 i felt like a total unwanted, awfull child, caused my mother heartfalure,depression, why couldn't i be like my sister, kind of stuff like that, maybe it does lay there... .I think that will allways be a vulnarable point, but well protected now... x

x

Read "When the Past is Present: Healing the Emotional Woulds that Sabotage our Relationships" by David Richo. I have been reading it for the past two hours and let me tell you, it's good, really good. I've only read about 50 pages and already I'm amazed.
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« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2010, 03:12:48 PM »

I will get that... .probably no translation over here, have to read it english than,I am now reading "Without conscience: the disturbing world of the  psychopath... .

But what you mentioned ,can be very helpfull... .thank you  
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« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2010, 04:10:58 PM »

Excerpt
"Without conscience: the disturbing world of the  psychopath... .

Well, if I'm ever in the mood to date a psychopath I will be sure to buy it,  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

I guarantee you the book will help a lot  x.
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