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Author Topic: They really were our soul mate(s)  (Read 8418 times)
T2H
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« on: June 26, 2010, 08:59:26 PM »

So we've joked a bit about this recently - and I read several more posts this week about the dreaded 'soul mate' term.  I realize it's being used in the "common understanding" way - but I've actually read many more times that a soul mate is someone who comes to teach us something - some important lesson that we need to learn - and often with such a person, it's quite chaotic and involves a lot of pain.  Maybe what I read was in response to everything else that came before about the ideal fantasy of our one true soul mate, but based on more recent descriptions... . our ex's were actually right.  They truly were a soul mate.

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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2010, 09:10:52 PM »

... .but I've actually read many more times that a soul mate is someone who comes to teach us something - some important lesson that we need to learn

When I read this, I think that it means everyone in the world is supposed to be matched up, even if for only a short while, with someone with a personality disorder.  And also, that we were all lacking in some way that we needed to be taught a lesson.

I don't buy it.  I don't think any one of else were lacking for anything in our lives that had to be taught to us by someone with a personality disorder.  I learn something new every day.  I'm open to that.  I willingly welcome that.  But I don't welcome the experienced teachers if they're disordered.

I am far from a perfect human being.  I am far from a perfect woman.  And if someone wants to teach me a lesson, it better be because I've asked to be taught... .not because they think I need to learn something.

Maybe I'm just hung up on the words -- soul mate.  I don't hate them.  I don't long to hear them.  But I do believe in true love.  I do believe in a kindred spirit.

I think I understand the point you're trying to make, T2H, but I guess I don't believe in it.
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T2H
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2010, 09:18:42 PM »



You have every right to use the term however you please.  And I'm certainly not throwing it around in my life willy nilly (hehe) for every bad experience I have with someone in which I learn something.

And I definitely wasn't saying that the disordered are 'experienced teachers'!  It's more along the lines of past life stuff - where certain interactions are crucially critical to the growth of our spirit over time.  More of a universe/karma kind of thing.

I'm not saying I totally believe in it... .just (a) for many of us here (eg. me!), I was taught a valuable lesson by this experience via my relationship with this person so in a certain sense / usage of the phrase, she was a soul mate, and (b) I've come across more things with this meaning than I have the one about true love and kindred spirits.

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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2010, 09:25:06 PM »

It's language that X would use when trying to hold us together.  It was an ultimate means of backpedalling, so the word is tainted for me. 

And it's what the outside world thought of us.  Mixed feelings about that -- part of me knew what was going on in private, part of me wanted the good times when at least things would FEEL happier for a while.

There were levels where he and I really connected, sure.  But no one mated to my soul will ever abuse me again.

If there ever is a true soul mate in my life -- or another one -- he'll have to deserve me.

Kindred spirits?  I've been lucky to find them more often -- not necessarily in the romantic sense, but when there's a connection of minds, talents, wits, world-view.  Like those here, and I'm grateful for it. x 

Especially on Saturday nights like this one.
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« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2010, 09:27:33 PM »

Excerpt
Maybe what I read was in response to everything else that came before about the ideal fantasy of our one true soul mate, but based on more recent descriptions... . our ex's were actually right.  They truly were a soul mate.

Yes, it's true. When the fantasy of "the one" becomes the reality of "the one." But reality is a different version- and reality is better reasoned with both feet on the ground. Yes, this person got in so deep that they unlocked a secret door- one that has memories, like a childhood code. Another person cant do that unless they're close- and close enough to bring up unresolved issues that lie dormant for decades. Boy, it was tough. But realizing this was necessary- reality showed me the way towards healing.

I had spent too much of my life in fantasy, searching for my better half- when suddenly, I thought I'd found it, only to have it pulled away from my and causing a breach of my deepest pain from childhood. And for that I have to thank this person, because no one else could have done it.  Like a secret key, he turned and unlocked my repressed pain and set into motion a complete dismantling of my denial. I came to see who I was and why I did things- and that's the greatest gift that anyone has ever given me.
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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2010, 09:28:33 PM »

Maybe it is the term for me, then.  I didn't experience those words coming out of my husband's mouth once, so I can't connect those dots to the term being asinine in my mind.  Plus, my husband is the only person in my life I've ever known with a personality disorder.  You've had more experience with "those people" (that sounds funny) than I have.

I better understand what you mean because of your follow up post.  For me, my life lessons are different though, I suppose.  I've learned a lot from many mistakes I've made.  Some of those mistakes involved other people, and some involved only me.  Some lessons I've learned didn't come from any kind of mistake -- they came from the truth.  So in a sense, my husband taught me some infinitely valuable lessons.

I have to give more thought to the soul mate thing, though.  (And I also need to catch up with you on the reading you've done!)

(I didn't mean to misinterpret your words in your initial post.  Not meaning to offend -- just trying to better understand your point.  You have much to offer, and I find your input extremely valuable.  Please continue... .)
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2010, 09:33:12 PM »

Yes, 2010 - totally agree - that's what I mean.

I know the term has a seriously negative connotation for most here (I.S. x) but it's interesting that when I went searching for info on it (long time ago, wasn't sure if I believed in one true SM or not), I actually came across many more articles saying "there's no 1 SM, we have multiple ones in our lives that teach us valuable lessons about ourselves and help our soul to grow."  Most actually said the person was bad for us (ie. we learn the most through intense suffering), others said that the person could be good or bad.

Maybe I just wasn't looking at the Harlequin Romance related sites... .  Smiling (click to insert in post)

ps.  No offense taken, CS - was just trying to clarify.

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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2010, 12:14:44 AM »

T2H,

I agree that it is more common in western culture to think of a "soul mate" as a romantic term meaning your one true love. I never really believed in that kind of pre-destination or fate.

My breakup with a pwBPD (r/s 18 mos) has caused so much pain, conflict and self-doubt. I am in traditional psychotherapy and realize that I need to figure out why I attracted this guy into my life and still love him even though he hates me. Not wanting to leave any stone unturned in full healing, I accepted the gift of an intuitive reading from a friend. I have never fully "bought" this, but I am desperate to figure it all out because repeating this kind of heartache would break me for good.

In the reading, I was told that over many (past) lifetimes, I have been rejected by the masculine figures in my life to the point where I expect it to happen. This is why my BPD/bf was the perfect fit and felt so "right". My lesson in this lifetime is to learn how to self-affirm and self-love; to find both the masculine and feminine energy within to become whole. It is kind of daunting to think of it on this "energetic/karmic" level. Not sure whether it was encouraging or discouraging to think of the ex as a "soul mate" who I somehow karmically manifested in order to advance my soul's journey. I know it was meant to be empowering information, but it sometimes now feels like the weight of not only this lifetime but many past ones as well that need to be healed.

Whether one believes in this life only or in past lives, the bottom line seems to be the same. We nons were all in search of a filling hole in our own souls that it seemed the pwBPD filled perfectly only to be cruelly dealt with in the end. Now, we must begin the journey of finding out how to be whole ourselves. So, for me "soul mate" could apply to my ex even though he is causing me so much pain and torture. I am coming to accept that it is indeed in suffering that we grow the most.

But darn it!, I so wish I was one of the lucky souls who didn't need to walk this path. Trying to not be swallowed up in victimhood, self-pity or just plain bitterness.

Thanks for the thoughtful conversations, they are a lifeline.

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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2010, 04:12:37 AM »

T2H

Whether one believes in this life only or in past lives, the bottom line seems to be the same.

That's a great point.  We used to have a, well I guess it's a half-joke in college, that when dating you're moving up the food-chain -- with every experience, you move to a higher life-form of partner, from slugs to amphibians to warm-blooded mammals, etc. (And by the way, we, those of us who had the joke together, were a community of girls and guys, so it wasn't one gender bashing the other.)

Despite the cynical humor, underneath develops a realization of some personal responsibility in who we would fall for.  Which in BPD/NON recovery terms would mean one's total duty to oneself for the recognition of red flags and the setting of boundaries.

So whether a past-life issue, or simply the consciousness of one's own life, some profound lessons there.  And part of the pain of recovery may be in losing some of the romanticism that blinded us.  I wonder how much I let slip by due to a hazy  rationalization that a soul mate would never behave in such a way.  Or worse, that if he were a true soul mate, that there must have been something I was doing to provoke his dysregulation -- which made no sense with the episodes that happened out of the blue, because he couldn't abide a happy calmness between us.  So I stayed on in the dance, trying to make the soul mate ideal a reality, per the institution of our marriage vows, or at least figure out why it wasn't to be that way.

The NPD irony is X moved instantly on to another S.O. waiting in the wings.  Literally dried his tears in the marriage counselor's office and asked when it was legal to start dating.  Meanwhile he's publicly declaring he Will Never Marry Again.  Whether that puts me On Some Pedestal of Apparent Significance to him --
Excerpt
** shrugs shoulders **

as Beast would say.  (My words are less printable at the moment.)

 For all the times that X would declare "No Guy Would Ever Have the Time, Interest or Patience" for such introspection, nor would Any Guy put up with women's self-indulgent need for petty "General Foods International Coffee Moments".  It's time to blow that out of the water, this energy-sapping veil of doubt that's been hanging over me.

I still believe in healthy and loving, responsible connection between people.  One of the biggest lessons I've learned here on this website is to counteract the sick sexism he threw at me.  It's a huge inspiration to find such integrity, respect and self-awareness here. 

Heartfelt thanks.    x
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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2010, 06:53:50 PM »

I wouldn't exactly use the term "mate" because that implies partnership. I tend to think of them as catalysts. But it's up to you to ensure that is their role.
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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2010, 07:02:19 PM »

Ok, so we also have to be on the lookout for thered-flag  phrase... . "I'm your soul catalyst!"

Smiling (click to insert in post)

(not intending to detract from what you posted szia - I understand and agree - maybe 'mate' would only be appropriate in the case where *both* people have a major growth experience from being together)

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« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2010, 08:47:46 PM »

Dang, if X were to have introduced himself to me as my soul catalyst, it would have been a hint of the rough ride I was in for.  Might be the proper wording, come to think of it, in that I leave the relationship changed and he breezes on the same.  But I'll make it a change for the better.

Or we could pronounce it like in Australia --  soul-"mite"  -- and that would ready us for something closer to a flea.
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« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2010, 09:02:17 PM »

i have learned that the world is cruel, people are in constant pain, and some people actually don't have a soul/conscience.  hmmm.  fabulous.
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« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2010, 09:09:26 PM »



LOL - not feeling too cheery tonight, SMP?

I.S. - I sure hope it wasn't "I'm your soul, mate." 

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« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2010, 09:19:56 PM »

i have learned that the world is cruel, people are in constant pain, and some people actually don't have a soul/conscience.  hmmm.  fabulous.

SMP,

Yeah... .I learned that lesson the hard way too!

T2H,

I think you give our exes WAY too much credit. I think I could have learned the same lesson WITHOUT all the drama, pain, bull___, etc. if I would have listened to my mom about girls like my exBPDgf. I never asked for the lesson and it sure wasn't worth the price I paid. The term "soul mate" really just creeps me out. I'll never forget the gut wrenching feeling I got when my exBPDgf first used it. I don't think she was put on this planet to teach me or anyone else anything. How can she possibly have so many "soul mates" that she is now the master of teaching every non what to avoid in real relationships? What if she is nothing more than a miserable, angry, bitter, abusive alcoholic who wants nothing more than to drag anyone close to her down with her? What's the lesson in that other than the obvious - "don't get emotionally involved in girls who are miserable, angry, bitter, abusive alcoholics"?

Just my humble opinion... .

-NHBB

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« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2010, 09:39:24 PM »

(not intending to detract from what you posted szia - I understand and agree - maybe 'mate' would only be appropriate in the case where *both* people have a major growth experience from being together)

Bingo! see for me this would be true love... .were both teach and learn and grow... .key word TOGETHER, and stay TOGETHER.  This is what i want for myself... .oh ya! x
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« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2010, 09:43:29 PM »

I think you give our exes WAY too much credit.

Perhaps.  I have done it before, in other ways.  However, I don't think I am here.  Note that, despite my joke about them being right to use the phrase, I didn't mean that they actually intentionally contributed to our growth.  That was all us - in response to what we went through.  What I'm saying is that the universe matched us up - as it possibly did in the past (if you believe in previous lives, etc) - to help our soul learn a valuable lesson.

And I disagree with you saying you could have learned that same lesson some other way (if it was a biggie).  It's possible, granted.  But personally I believe you have to suffer massive pain to experience massive growth - it's unfortunate but true - at least it's one of my current working theories.  I do agree that we don't ask for this - at least not consciously... .

Obviously the phrase is a big trigger for many and means different things.  What I'm referring to is not about one person that wanders around teaching others something - it's the interaction of two people specifically, and the combustion that results from that.  It does seem that a pwBPD using the term willy nilly with everyone doesn't really apply.

Btw, I've only had one person use the soul mate term towards me - and it was neither of my pd ex's.  It was someone who is very spiritual, and at the same time extremely clingy.  I believe I experienced very little growth in that relationship, or even in response to it.

Excerpt
What's the lesson in that other than the obvious - "don't get emotionally involved in girls who are miserable, angry, bitter, abusive alcoholics"?

Have you experienced significant personal growth in response to the above?  No?  Then she was wrong, imo - ie. not your soul mate.  She was just what you wrote above - and yes, that might have been a lesson you could have learned elsewhere.  Sometimes your mom is right!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
Just my humble opinion... .

Appreciated!  (along with all the others who have contributed)

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« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2010, 10:13:49 PM »

I think you give our exes WAY too much credit.

What I'm saying is that the universe matched us up - as it possibly did in the past (if you believe in previous lives, etc) - to help our soul learn a valuable lesson.

And I disagree with you saying you could have learned that same lesson some other way (if it was a biggie).  It's possible, granted.  But personally I believe you have to suffer massive pain to experience massive growth - it's unfortunate but true - at least it's one of my current working theories.  I do agree that we don't ask for this - at least not consciously... .

Excerpt
What's the lesson in that other than the obvious - "don't get emotionally involved in girls who are miserable, angry, bitter, abusive alcoholics"?

Have you experienced significant personal growth in response to the above?  No?  Then she was wrong, imo - ie. not your soul mate.  She was just what you wrote above - and yes, that might have been a lesson you could have learned elsewhere.  Sometimes your mom is right!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

T2H,

One life lesson I've learned is that my mom is ALWAYS right... .just ask her! LOL.

I've experienced significant personal growth in different ways as well as a result of my experience with my exBPDgf. To me, that's not part of my definition of being a soul mate. You could make the same case that any violent criminal who inflicts serious trauma on some unsuspecting victim could then be a soul mate if the victim heals and moves past there trauma... .correct? In my opinion, they are nothing more than negative, hurtful mean spirited people who cause harm. I agree that going through the experience of having to deal with the trauma in ones life can lead to growth and learning. I think those lessons can be learned in a more positive, less traumatic experience - years of martial arts training, yoga practice, religious studies, etc. I don't think my martial arts instructor is my soul mate because of the huge impact he's made in my life. He is an incredible positive influence - but not a soul mate.

Yes I've grown a lot, learned many lessons, etc from the abuse my exBPDgf bestowed upon me. I don't view her as my soul mate though. In my mind she is nothing more than a selfish, self-centered mentally ill person who gets off on causing others pain and misery. I do believe in karma which is why she is insignificant in my life now - she spreads such negative bad karma. She is nothing more than a past reminder of my greatest mistake in my life. I had a fork in the road in life and I took the wrong path. I had many set backs, I lost much, but I'm fine now. Had I not met my exBPDgf, who knows what my life would be like now? I would have more, many different experiences, other lessons. Either way I still don't view her as the catalyst for my life's lessons.

-NHBB
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« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2010, 10:46:38 PM »

I don't think my martial arts instructor is my soul mate because of the huge impact he's made in my life. He is an incredible positive influence - but not a soul mate.

But some of what I read would disagree... . which is what I was referring to here... .

Excerpt
Most actually said the person was bad for us (ie. we learn the most through intense suffering), others said that the person could be good or bad.

I understand the prevailing view of 'soul mate' - which is why I found it interesting that I came across the alternate interpretation more often... .

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« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2010, 10:54:54 PM »

Of course, this kind of clarity only comes with hindsight. From really, really far away!
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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2010, 03:44:45 AM »

She is nothing more than a past reminder of my greatest mistake in my life. I had a fork in the road in life and I took the wrong path. I had many set backs, I lost much, but I'm fine now

Hey Beach! I really liked this phrase and pretty much sums up where I'm at too. It's been awhile since my last post and don't want to hijack this thread. Maybe I'll start my own for an update.

Good to see an old timer... .haha!  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2010, 06:36:10 AM »

I don't think my martial arts instructor is my soul mate because of the huge impact he's made in my life. He is an incredible positive influence - but not a soul mate.

But some of what I read would disagree... . which is what I was referring to here... .

Excerpt
Most actually said the person was bad for us (ie. we learn the most through intense suffering), others said that the person could be good or bad.

I understand the prevailing view of 'soul mate' - which is why I found it interesting that I came across the alternate interpretation more often... .

T2H,

All depends upon how you want to interpret a "soul mate" I suppose. The issue I have is that I truly believe my exBPDgf did stuff to intentionally cause damage and harm - not help teach. She did a lot of really bad crap with a lot of decptive forethought - even now with her ridiculous pseudo-stalking crap at my gym(s)... .trying to provoke, instigate, whatever. I would agree that we encounter a few people in our lives that have made a significant impact such as my martial arts teacher, maybe a drill sargent or other mentor if you are in the military, perhaps a mentor you met at work or in college, etc. I think people like that challenge you with the intention of helping prepare you, making you successful, etc. Then there are others like my exBPDgf who want nothing more than to tear us down with the hopes and intentions of destroying us. Yes - I agree most have learned valuable lessons but not in a good way. I would classify them in the same category as a violent criminal - they are able to have a severe impact in our lives but I wouldn't consider them a soul mate. I think I share a deep common bond with some on the nook because we were going through our break ups at a similar time and went through a lot of life changing events. I think they get it, we share some similar really bad experiences and we've been able to help each other through some of the worst times in our lives. I wouldn't say they are my soul mates but they are people that I trust and can rely on and turn to for advice. Kind of like some people are in my "inner circle" of friends and others are peripheral... .I may see them every once in a while.

Quote from: szia


Of course, this kind of clarity only comes with hindsight. From really, really far away!

Szia,

Absolutely... .you can't see the forest if you're standing one foot in front of a tree! Distance and time = clarity! Smiling (click to insert in post)


Quote from: thomaso61
She is nothing more than a past reminder of my greatest mistake in my life. I had a fork in the road in life and I took the wrong path. I had many set backs, I lost much, but I'm fine now

Hey Beach! I really liked this phrase and pretty much sums up where I'm at too. It's been awhile since my last post and don't want to hijack this thread. Maybe I'll start my own for an update.

Good to see an old timer... .haha!  grin

THOMAS! S'up? Been a while... .hope all is well with you. I'll drop you a PM in a bit and get you caught up the past year or so. It is good to see another old timer. Smiling (click to insert in post)

-NHBB
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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2010, 07:37:11 AM »

I read Eat, Pray, Love before I met the pwBPD in my life and then again when we were in NC.

I thought this quote from the book was really powerful on the second read-through:

"People think a soul mate is your perfect fit, and that's what everyone wants. But a true soul mate is a mirror, the person who shows you everything that is holding you back, the person who brings you to your own attention so you can change your life.

A true soul mate is probably the most important person you'll ever meet, because they tear down your walls and smack you awake. But to live with a soul mate forever? Nah. Too painful. Soul mates, they come into your life just to reveal another layer of yourself to you, and then leave.

A soul mates purpose is to shake you up, tear apart your ego a little bit, show you your obstacles and addictions, break your heart open so new light can get in, make you so desperate and out of control that you have to transform your life, then introduce you to your spiritual master... ."

— Elizabeth Gilbert (Eat, Pray, Love: One Woman's Search for Everything Across Italy, India and Indonesia)

Based on the author's definition, the pwBPD in my life was so very much a soul mate.

I'm pretty much recovered, but I think I will always think of him that way, in a fond, bittersweet, sad sort of way.

VanessaG
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2010, 08:06:18 AM »

i have learned that the world is cruel, people are in constant pain, and some people actually don't have a soul/conscience.  hmmm.  fabulous.

I think you give our exes WAY too much credit

I agree, and it's the "credit" that rankles. By behaving like an utter ___ she has taught me a lesson for sure. I understand this. I've learnt about PDs, I've learnt about my trying to control things I can't, for sure I have learnt. But calling them a "soul mate" and giving them credit or even thanking them... .my god! This was not a friendly lesson, this was an assault on my being!

Should I thank my employers for sacking me cos he taught me how to economise?

I do appreiciate it IS a lesson, but really, she gets no positive credit from me. She deliberately hurt me and disrespected me and deserves nothing but my derision.

It is US that deserve the credit. We lived thru it, we got out and now we analyse and learn lessons from it. Many people will date a BPD and never get to therapy or a messageboard. They may have provided the stimulus but the lesson was ours to learn and its all to our credit. Nothing to do with them.
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2010, 03:13:23 PM »

I read Eat, Pray, Love before I met the pwBPD in my life and then again when we were in NC.

I thought this quote from the book was really powerful on the second read-through:

"People think a soul mate is your perfect fit, and that's what everyone wants. But a true soul mate is a mirror, the person who shows you everything that is holding you back, the person who brings you to your own attention so you can change your life.

[... .]

Thanks for posting that Vanessa! That's exactly what I mean.

It is US that deserve the credit. We lived thru it, we got out and now we analyse and learn lessons from it. Many people will date a BPD and never get to therapy or a messageboard. They may have provided the stimulus but the lesson was ours to learn and its all to our credit. Nothing to do with them.

Hey TS - didn't mean to upset any of you with my thread - or discount the pain/suffering that you've gone through at the hands of your ex.  I think there's some confusion here - I'm not giving them credit for *doing* anything - and I'm not saying we should thank them for all the healing/growth/etc that we've all put in a lot of time/effort/energy to do ourselves.  But I disagree - it does have something to do with them - if they weren't in our lives - we wouldn't be here growing/learning/improving.  Vanessa's post is what I've been saying that I read more often than a SM is this one beautiful perfect person for you (which is how our ex's likely meant it - in that way, they were wrong).

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« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2010, 03:23:21 PM »

Excerpt
Thanks for posting that Vanessa! That's exactly what I mean.

I flew right past the stuff about soul mate the first time I read it, and the second time through, in the midst of the BPD breakup and NC, and lots of crying and wondering, I just kept reading that section over and over and over again.

In fact I folded over the corner and went back and read it several times.

I wouldn't say I'm grateful to have my heart ripped out and stomped on repeatedly, but damn, it sure did show me a side of myself that I needed to get to know.

It's an excellent book, really.  Maybe more of a chick book than a guy's read, but for the strong, sensitive types we have on bpdfamily.com, it might be worth checking out.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

VanessaG
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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2010, 03:32:07 PM »

for the strong, sensitive types

<------------   Smiling (click to insert in post)  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I've heard about the book for awhile and considered getting it - but read some reviews about the author being fairly self-centered - I've just had two relationships with women where that was the case, so I figured I'd give it some more time.  ;p

Apparently more recently a guy wrote: Drink, Play, F@#k (!)

Excerpt
I wouldn't say I'm grateful to have my heart ripped out and stomped on repeatedly, but damn, it sure did show me a side of myself that I needed to get to know.

Yep.   x

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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2010, 03:57:39 PM »

Soulmates... a perfect match...

That's what he was... but he couldn't stay... it was a reflection of all what I had and still have in me.

Is it mirroring... I found very often that he used my words, my opinions, my hobby's, it was like if he couldn't get up with something of his own.

We could dance like nobody could, we won prizes, we were perfect.

It takes two to tango, so he had some same skills as I had, but what I most felt that he wanted to be like me, desperately wanted to be what I was.

What I learned was that there were a lot of walls to tear down, there was a lot of hurt beneath the surface, and yes I felt he came into my life to ease the pain, to finally give me what I never received before.

He was my prince on the white horse, but he fell off, I didn't, I drove on... He couldn't face his own fears, couldn't face his own pain, and sometimes I felt he was stealing of me, kinda strange feeling, like he judged everything I did, but than took it as if it was his own.

The fact is that now, I will see everyone as he/she is, not my thoughts of what some one is, i.e. I want some one to be what I want.

But I build up some new walls too, and my vision feels very clear... I realy don't want a person anymore who wants exactly what I want or do.

I don't want an reflection of myself anymore, I often thought... geez... can't you think of your own.

So yes I learned a lot, He forced me to look inside, to see who I am, to get to know myself, and when I did, I finally saw what he was...

I don't want a soulmate anymore, I want some one who knows who he is, and what he wants.

Yes he was a teacher in his way, without even knowing it, and no one was ever able to do that, I do wonder what our role was than in their lifes... were we teachers or do we have to rip some ones heart out also?

Is their role in life only to teach and not to be tought... who are the blessed ones than... x

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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2010, 04:09:02 PM »

I read Eat, Pray, Love before I met the pwBPD in my life and then again when we were in NC.

I thought this quote from the book was really powerful on the second read-through:

"People think a soul mate is your perfect fit, and that's what everyone wants. But a true soul mate is a mirror, the person who shows you everything that is holding you back, the person who brings you to your own attention so you can change your life.

[... .]

Thanks for posting that Vanessa! That's exactly what I mean.

It is US that deserve the credit. We lived thru it, we got out and now we analyse and learn lessons from it. Many people will date a BPD and never get to therapy or a messageboard. They may have provided the stimulus but the lesson was ours to learn and its all to our credit. Nothing to do with them.

Hey TS - didn't mean to upset any of you with my thread - or discount the pain/suffering that you've gone through at the hands of your ex.  I think there's some confusion here - I'm not giving them credit for *doing* anything - and I'm not saying we should thank them for all the healing/growth/etc that we've all put in a lot of time/effort/energy to do ourselves.  But I disagree - it does have something to do with them - if they weren't in our lives - we wouldn't be here growing/learning/improving.  Vanessa's post is what I've been saying that I read more often than a SM is this one beautiful perfect person for you (which is how our ex's likely meant it - in that way, they were wrong).

Hiya

I know of course you didn't mean to upset me Smiling (click to insert in post) And I do understand your point. I guess I am not healed enough to give that woman credit for anything positive in my life or to think of her as a teacher. Of course our experiences teach us but I think many go thru life just fine without having a BPD relationship. I realise I was targetted and I realise that I had to change but it rankles me too much to give her credit. I was badly hurt and my ego took an almighty bang which almost cost me my job. That it didn't and i survive is where I congratulate myself and I think i'd rather focus on that, than glorifying her role in it. I do understand what you are saying and like I say, im just not feeling so charitable as to give her any credit for anything. Maybe one day when the pain has lessened further I might be more generous.

I always take it as read that we all here do not mean to upset one another, so don't worry I was not offended.
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« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2010, 04:14:10 PM »

Did you ever see those engraved heart pendants you could buy at state fairs, etc.? A quarter-sized blank disc shaped like a metal heart would have room for two names, yours and someone else's.  Then it would be cut in 1/2 with jagged edges that would match up when you put two together, to complete each name -- and it came with 2 chains so that each of the couple could wear one.  They would have bought tangible evidence of the person who makes them whole, that they do that for each other.

Are we discussing soul mates in this context?  Would that mean painting them white?  If we use the phrase, are we setting ourselves up to struggle with an expectation, a romantic ideal?

Or is it merely someone who makes a (predestined?) profound impact on our lives?  A list of someones?
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« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2010, 04:53:56 PM »

I know of course you didn't mean to upset me Smiling (click to insert in post) And I do understand your point. I guess I am not healed enough to give that woman credit for anything positive in my life or to think of her as a teacher. Of course our experiences teach us but I think many go thru life just fine without having a BPD relationship. I realise I was targetted and I realise that I had to change but it rankles me too much to give her credit. I was badly hurt and my ego took an almighty bang which almost cost me my job. That it didn't and i survive is where I congratulate myself and I think i'd rather focus on that, than glorifying her role in it. I do understand what you are saying and like I say, im just not feeling so charitable as to give her any credit for anything. Maybe one day when the pain has lessened further I might be more generous.

Understood.  

Btw, trying to make things work with my ex cost me 3 jobs (two I had offers for but wasn't able to take due to our future plans, and one I just started that I had to quit after we broke up because I was hit so hard by depression).  And it almost cost me my life - several times.  But now I'm much better off (spiritually) than I was before I met her.  I don't thank her for that - or think she specifically was a positive force in my life.  But I'm not mad at her either - it doesn't make what she did right - but forgiving her is something for *me*, that's part of my healing.

We all have our paths/opinions/perspectives.  I've just been a pessimist for most of my life - and it hasn't been a huge benefit to me.  I'm trying to be more positive - we'll see how that works out.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

ps.  Interestingly my ex started off (appearing to) be the original definition of SM and then became the one I've posted about in this thread... . I wonder if that's related... .

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« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2010, 04:54:52 PM »

Excerpt
Of course our experiences teach us but I think many go thru life just fine without having a BPD relationship.

Oh good heavens, I don't think any of us here would recommend it in order to learn a life lesson!   Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) 

[Edited to add:

Hell, I lost my mother at a very young age.  It taught me a lot.  A painful lot, but yeah, no way would I say losing a mother early is therapeutic for young children.  I guess there's some sense of taking lemons and making lemonade.  In an overly simplistic sense.]

Excerpt
Are we discussing soul mates in this context?  Would that mean painting them white?  If we use the phrase, are we setting ourselves up to struggle with an expectation, a romantic ideal?

Or is it merely someone who makes a (predestined?) profound impact on our lives?  A list of someones?

I think that the definition is the key thing here.

For me, I thought the pwBPD in my life was your first definition.  A romantic ideal.

It turns out he fit the second definition much, much better.  Someone who tore everything up and made a serious impact.

VanessaG


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« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2010, 04:57:27 PM »

Excerpt
I've heard about the book for awhile and considered getting it - but read some reviews about the author being fairly self-centered - I've just had two relationships with women where that was the case, so I figured I'd give it some more time.

Well T2H, being that you are the strong, sensitive type, I'd give it a go.

And I'm sort of  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) about the self-centered part, because the whole book was about a woman's journey to find herself.  Not sure you can get any more self-centered than that.

But I found her to be a rather likeable character, flawed and foibled like all of us, but genuinely funny and likeable.

Guess Julia Roberts is playing Elizabeth Gilbert in the movie version.  Have seen trailer but not quite sure when it comes out.

We can have a bpdfamily.com Movie Review.

VanessaG
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« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2010, 11:57:12 PM »

TH2,

We probably all have our own perspective on our own personal situations.  I have the same as yours.  To me it was different from something else horrible, such as losing a mother or being the victim of a crime, because of my own role in it.  Although he was manipulative, and I had nothing to do with that- it was the situation where I could be manipulated like that and fall for someone like that and continued (for a time) to be tormented by, and addicted to, someone that abused me.  I had to learn my part in it. 

If I hadn't had a BPD in my life, I would probably continue to this day to find others that were unhealthy for me, even if in a lesser way.  I needed the 'big bang' to wake me up.  To be able to really find a truly wonderful life; not just one where I meandered through a world that was just 'ok'.  My life is much better than ok now.  I guess for some of us, it takes 'hitting bottom' to reach higher levels of consciousness about ourselves.  All of the nice advice and mentors I had over the years didn't affect my awareness like this did.  None of it changed me like this did. 

Since relationships in my past weren't 'that' bad, I didn't really 'see' the need to change 'that' much.  This did that.  I am grateful for it.  I do see it as a gift.  Do I wish I were the type of person that didn't 'need' something like this in order to greatly improve my life?  Sure.  But now that the pain is gone, and I am no longer addicted to the drama, etc., I have found someone that also had to hit bottom to get to where he is now.  We understand one another and the importance for constant self-growth.  We have a common awareness.  I don't think the same things would have been as important to me. 

Many people don't need this type of pain to grow, but I know this is a common philosophical idea- to grow the most, you must have had pain.  -In my case, pain that I had the power to ultimately stop.  Otherwise, why change?  This was a great thread.  Thanks to everyone.

Foiles

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« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2010, 12:17:07 AM »

TH2,

We probably all have our own perspective on our own personal situations.  I have the same as yours.  To me it was different from something else horrible, such as losing a mother or being the victim of a crime, because of my own role in it.  Although he was manipulative, and I had nothing to do with that- it was the situation where I could be manipulated like that and fall for someone like that and continued (for a time) to be tormented by, and addicted to, someone that abused me.  I had to learn my part in it. 

If I hadn't had a BPD in my life, I would probably continue to this day to find others that were unhealthy for me, even if in a lesser way.  I needed the 'big bang' to wake me up.  To be able to really find a truly wonderful life; not just one where I meandered through a world that was just 'ok'.  My life is much better than ok now.  I guess for some of us, it takes 'hitting bottom' to reach higher levels of consciousness about ourselves.  All of the nice advice and mentors I had over the years didn't affect my awareness like this did.  None of it changed me like this did. 

Since relationships in my past weren't 'that' bad, I didn't really 'see' the need to change 'that' much.  This did that.  I am grateful for it.  I do see it as a gift.  Do I wish I were the type of person that didn't 'need' something like this in order to greatly improve my life?  Sure.  But now that the pain is gone, and I am no longer addicted to the drama, etc., I have found someone that also had to hit bottom to get to where he is now.  We understand one another and the importance for constant self-growth.  We have a common awareness.  I don't think the same things would have been as important to me. 

Many people don't need this type of pain to grow, but I know this is a common philosophical idea- to grow the most, you must have had pain.  -In my case, pain that I had the power to ultimately stop.  Otherwise, why change?  This was a great thread.  Thanks to everyone.

Foiles

wow, nice, this gives me great hope... thanks for posting... .this is one post i will re read for sure... in times of need!
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« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2010, 12:27:45 AM »

I read Eat, Pray, Love before I met the pwBPD in my life and then again when we were in NC.

I thought this quote from the book was really powerful on the second read-through:

"People think a soul mate is your perfect fit, and that's what everyone wants. But a true soul mate is a mirror, the person who shows you everything that is holding you back, the person who brings you to your own attention so you can change your life.

A true soul mate is probably the most important person you'll ever meet, because they tear down your walls and smack you awake. But to live with a soul mate forever? Nah. Too painful. Soul mates, they come into your life just to reveal another layer of yourself to you, and then leave.

A soul mates purpose is to shake you up, tear apart your ego a little bit, show you your obstacles and addictions, break your heart open so new light can get in, make you so desperate and out of control that you have to transform your life, then introduce you to your spiritual master... ."

— Elizabeth Gilbert (Eat, Pray, Love: One Woman's Search for Everything Across Italy, India and Indonesia)

I read this book in March, soon after leaving my husband.  It spoke VOLUMES to me.  I realized, while reading the book, that I was supposed to write my own book about my journey with my husband.  I was journaling incessantly at that time and just looked through my notebook at some of the things I wrote about the book.

Some questions to answer for myself in the future:

"1. What are my choices to be?

2. What do I believe that I deserve in this life?

3. Where can I accept sacrifice, and where can I not?"

"He was powerful and I died of love in his shadow."

"The resting place of the mind is the heart... . The only place the mind will ever find peace is inside the silence of the heart.  That's where you need to go."

"There are only two questions that human beings have ever fought over, all through history.  'How much do you love me?' and 'Who's in charge?'  Everything else is somehow manageable.  But these two questions of love and control undo us all... . When I sit in my silence and look at my mind, it is only questions of longing and control that emerge to agitate me, and this agitation is what keeps me from evolving forward."

"I have fallen in love more times that I care to count with the highest potential of a man, rather than with the man himself, and then I have hung on to the relationship for a long time (sometimes far too long) waiting for the man to ascend to his own greatness.  Many times in romance I have been a victim of my own optimism."

I hadn't any idea this book was being made into a movie.  Being an avid book reader, I'm not usually a fan of seeing a movie after I've read a book.  This one I'd consider, though.  It was a great book in my opinion.
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« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2010, 03:17:01 AM »

Oh oh... .

Boundaries in Dating

By Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend

"... .your road map to the kind of enjoyable, rewarding dating that can take you from weekends alone to a lifetime with the soul mate you've longed for."

;p

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« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2010, 05:40:25 AM »

Reading that... .oww... ending up with another Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)   < where is the red/white/bleu/orange Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2010, 06:19:06 AM »

I won a trip to Bali a year and a half ago from work and took my current gf (non - thank God!). She read "Eat, Love, Pray" and suggested I read it since part of it was about Bali. I started to read it but got too distracted. She did say it was a fantastic read.

Back to the topic of "soul mate"... .still not buying it. I get that some people we encounter can leave an impact - both negative and positive... .but I still don't think they are "soul mates". Take WW II for example. Look at what happened to the Jews at the hands of the Nazis. I'm sure many Jews grew and learned many life lessons that they never forgot - trust, survival, mental toughness, perspective, etc. According to your definition, wouldn't that make the Nazis "soul mates"? In my mind they are just vicious, violent, disrespectful, selfish pieces of crap. What if WW II never happened? Many lives would be different. Lessons would not have been learned but I think other opportunities for growth could be learned.

Here's another example in my own life. I was working for my first company out of college many years ago. I had been there about 7 years and got put on a crappy project with an incompetent manager. She lied to me about a bonus & was just a disaster. H.R. backed her and I felt that i order to have my career progress I needed to get out of my comfort zone and leave. It was a big step and I did. I make tons more money, have way more opportunity, better benefits, etc. Was she my "soul mate" or just an idiot that forced me to react in a positive way in order to keep bettering myself on a better path? What lesson did I learn other than "don't work for idiotic managers"? If she were not in my path, I could have had another much better manager who could have helped my career right? Perhaps all the travel of my new job put space and distance between my wife at the time and I, and when the BPD witch came into the picture I reacted differently? Perhaps another manager would have meant I would have stayed, my career may not have flourished as much as it did, but my marriage may have still been in tact? My old manager didn't "teach" me anything that I didn't figure out on my own. All she did was put up a barrier in my career that I had to get around.

My issue is that the term "soul mate" seems to somehow imply some grandiose, magically, positive connotation. I believe that my experience with my exBPDgf is more about ME surviving, adapting, and learning not from HER, but from getting the heck away from her. I don't think she TAUGHT me anything. I think it's just a bad situation that I got myself into and got myself out of... .just because she caused the bad situation, then bailed, why does that make her my soul mate? How did she teach me anything? I learned my lessons on my own! She was no where to be found - well, hooking up on match.com looking for her next "soul mate" really! Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

My other issue is that I feel you give your ex WAY too much credit for "teaching" you something that you probably learned on your own. Was she really a teacher/mentor or just a catalyst for a bad situation? Wasn't your T or others in your life more helpful in your healing process? Wouldn't they be the real soul mates?

Again... .just my 2 pennies... .

-NHBB
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« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2010, 06:27:22 AM »

Let's see if simplifying will help address all your points NHBB.  The definition I personally was alluding to from the start... .

Someone with whom you have an intimate relationship who causes such disruption in your life (good or bad) that your self is forever significantly changed thereafter.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Note that intimate can be any of... .physical, intellectual, emotional, spiritual.

In that sense, my ex was a soul mate for me - but I wasn't one for her.  Maybe your ex wasn't one for you.

You don't have to agree - I'm just offering it as an alternate view.

Do you prefer the other definition instead... . that there's one soul mate that's perfect for each of us and together the two of you will live happily ever after?  (given you find her in time)

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« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2010, 06:54:41 AM »

Let's see if simplifying will help address all your points NHBB.  The definition I personally was alluding to from the start... .

Someone with whom you have an intimate relationship who causes such disruption in your life (good or bad) that you are forever significantly changed thereafter.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Note that intimate can be any of... .physical, intellectual, emotional, spiritual.

You don't have to agree - I'm just offering it as an alternate view.

T2H,

Oh... .OK... .I get it now. So according to your definition, wouldn't that mean that every abusive ex-SO, stalkers and rapists would fall into the category of "soul mate"? I suppose if every ex who was immature enough to cause enough drama to make a big enough impact on our lives would be a "soul mate" as well? Wouldn't they, by definition, have an INTIMATE relationship AND cause such disruption in others lives (bad in the case) that the other person has been forever significantly changed (harmed/damaged probably)?

I hear what you're saying... .but my issue is that just because someone acts so inappropriate and abusive that they disrupt your entire life, shouldn't make them a soul mate. In the end, they are nothing more that a catalyst or an instigator - not a soul mate or teacher. It's US that are forced to react and find alternative paths in life and overcome their crap by learning WITHOUT them or IN SPITE of them. I don't perceive people who put up barriers or intentional negative challenges in our lives as "soul mates" since all they really did was be disruptive.

I appreciate your alternative view but I still don't agree. I guess I'm trying to offer you my alternative view too! Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Smiling (click to insert in post)

-NHBB
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« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2010, 07:15:14 AM »

Ok well intimate in the 'connecting' sense - not like 'just sex' - nor anything (well anyone) that's forced upon you. And I guess I meant: positive spritual growth from it.

You haven't offered an alternate view - you've just been tearing down mine.  ;p  Do you agree with any definition of the term? Do you believe in it?

I'm curious why this seems (to me) like a touchy area for you... .

Have a good day! Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2010, 07:23:33 AM »

I imagine its the linguistical aspect. Many of us grew up defining soulmate as a person who enriches your life. Not someone who tears into your very being and leaves you a shell. What you are saying, in theory, is correct, people come into our life and change us and some people change us fundamentally but, for me, im not sure about BeachBum, giving them the moniker teacher or soulmate is to tarnish the word!

In my opinion, and I do realise you asked NH, but soulmate is a term reserved only for someone who truly enriches your life with love not via destruction, lies, infidelity and heartbreak. It sullies the word!
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« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2010, 07:42:59 AM »

Interesting. This may be another topic but... .how do you feel about alternate uses of the word 'love' ? Does it bother you when someone here says they love their partner but it's clearly something more akin to obsession/addiction?

Why is the term 'soul mate' both put on a pedestal and at the same time also despised (by many)?

Had to edit so I could add these... .   

Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2010, 08:27:52 AM »

T2H,

Like I wrote earlier, the term "soul mate" seems to have this magical, mystical aura connotation about some person that somehow "completes" us. According to your definition, anyone we were intimate with and disrupted our lives enough to impact us should be a "soul mate". To me it makes no sense to somehow elevate someone to the lofty stature of a soul mate just because that acted nutty enough to drive us away when in fact, the real growth and learning usually happens AFTER they are gone - not when they are still with us.

I personally detest the term "soul mate". People still joke about my exBPDgf and all her ex soul mates since she quickly (like within 2-3 weeks of first meeting) has her emotional diarreah and blabs to her latest conquest how they are her "soul mate" when in fact she really doesn't know the first thing about them except maybe that they were stupid enough to hook up with her at that point. That term represents the worst, most evilest person I have met. So yeah - I may be a bit touchy on that term. I may despise it for good reason. I learned NOTHING while I was with my... .umm... ."soul mate". I learned everything continually getting away from that toxic person.

I agree with TS - even professors or mentors who challenge us, make us work extra hard, throw obstacles at us in order to get us to better ourselves, apply ourselves more, etc - they are really soul mates since their intentions are to cause us good. My exBPDgf had no good intentions for me. She intentionally caused me harm and pain and suffering. The ONLY reason I grew is because of myself & my own instincts and resources. She did nothing to "help" me grow. In fact, if she had her way, I think she would feel happy if I were still suffering, unsuccessful, broken, damaged, etc. Just my opinion but that's not a "soul mate".

To answer some of your direct questions - no - I don't really believe in it. I could agree with SOME of your definition but I think it's too broad and general and ultimately makes no sense in that simply being disruptive enough to be a big enough pain in the *ss to leave a severe negative impact doesn't equal soul mate in my opinion. I offer no alternative definition since I don't really believe in soul mates... .but if I did it would be very similar to TS's. They would probably need to enrich and be positive.

I'm off to work now. Have a nice day.

-NHBB
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« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2010, 09:00:12 AM »

For what its worth... .we believed we were "Twinsouls" this idea was from early on in the relationship hers. I wanted it to be so.

When we made love ( not to be confused with sex ) I seemed to go to a different place that I would call "Spiritual"... .a place where I felt an enormous "blessed'" wonderment we could call "Love"... .but actually much more enriching... .It was like time stood still and we travelled together in total peace and oneness... .  I have never experienced anything like it before, and I have had many experiences to compare it to.

I have since realized that it was all part of the illusion, but then again it was very real to me in a positive way, and those shared moments will remain with me forever. Im terrified to get into another relationship because it cant possible compare.

Re: They really were our soul mate... .I`d say possibly yes, but from the dark and negative side.
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« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2010, 11:07:19 AM »

This is as may be, and I thought for a long time, because of the immense connection sexually, that we were "starred" but I think its the case they have that sexuality withg everyone! That was the thing that depressed me the most. That I may never have such a time sexually again and that... .to all purposes, she could get that involved and fulfilled with anyone she chose.   
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« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2010, 11:28:14 AM »

This is as may be, and I thought for a long time, because of the immense connection sexually, that we were "starred" but I think its the case they have that sexuality withg everyone! That was the thing that depressed me the most. That I may never have such a time sexually again and that... .to all purposes, she could get that involved and fulfilled with anyone she chose.   

I cant imagine she can have that with anybody else  but I'm sure she can play the part for anybody else ( within reason surely ?) ... .she said we are Twin Souls and that's why we shared those moments ( which I felt intensely ) but on the flip side I suppose she could play the part of someone's Whore... .anyway she last confessed that she doesn't and cant want sex (making love ) any more because she cant give, and never liked it anyway, always hated it she said, and was the only way to keep a man or he`d go looking elsewhere. I cant tell you the effects this had/has on me... .Its all a big theatrical lie.

Soul Mate, Twin Soul, Kindrid Spirit what ever we call it... .its all empty illusions, shattered dreams from "Boom to a bowl of dust"
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« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2010, 12:06:20 PM »

This is as may be, and I thought for a long time, because of the immense connection sexually, that we were "starred" but I think its the case they have that sexuality withg everyone! That was the thing that depressed me the most. That I may never have such a time sexually again and that... .to all purposes, she could get that involved and fulfilled with anyone she chose.  

I cant imagine she can have that with anybody else  but I'm sure she can play the part for anybody else ( within reason surely ?) ... .she said we are Twin Souls and that's why we shared those moments ( which I felt intensely ) but on the flip side I suppose she could play the part of someone's Whore... .anyway she last confessed that she doesn't and cant want sex (making love ) any more because she cant give, and never liked it anyway, always hated it she said, and was the only way to keep a man or he`d go looking elsewhere. I cant tell you the effects this had/has on me... .Its all a big theatrical lie.

Soul Mate, Twin Soul, Kindrid Spirit what ever we call it... .its all empty illusions, shattered dreams from "Boom to a bowl of dust"

In many ways the same from the girl's perspective (mine).  Except for the sad part that I think X meant the warm, supportive stuff when he said it.  Then he couldn't control the rage, fear, perceived abandonment, all that misogynistic crap.  And for lack of resolution of the abuse in his past -- an explosive combination of Mommy not protecting him from abusive men and X's own closeted bisexuality, it was summarily dumped on me.

Thanks for using the words "big theatrical lie" and "Boom to a bowl of dust" -- you've helped me to this realization.

It really reeks, though, doesn't it?  On to better days... .
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« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2010, 02:29:16 PM »

This is as may be, and I thought for a long time, because of the immense connection sexually, that we were "starred" but I think its the case they have that sexuality withg everyone! That was the thing that depressed me the most. That I may never have such a time sexually again and that... .to all purposes, she could get that involved and fulfilled with anyone she chose.   

TS,

So would you now consider her your soul mate after all the crap that she put you through?

It seems ludicrous and ridiculous that we think of them as our soul mates. Here's an analogy - what if you were driving down the street in a nice, new car going to work and ran over a pile of glass and got a flat tire. You saw some hot babe on the side of the road snickering and bragging to her friend about how she intentionally threw glass there. You had to change your flat yourself in the hot sun, ended up being late for work and got fired. All this started because of the hot babe. So would you then put her up on a revered pedestal and elevate her status to "soul mate" because you got to finally learn how to use your tire iron and change a flat? Should we think highly of them now that we had to find a new job? Meanwhile, they offer us no value and no help for the predicament they helped to get us in, in the first place! They're off repeating the same crap on another street. Should we thank them and perceive them as teachers that have made an impact in our lives or perceive them as thugs, punks, selfish mean spirited people who we randomly encountered and had a very bad experience?

Call them what you will... .label them how you like... .everyone's perception becomes their reality in the end.

-NHBB
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« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2010, 02:56:49 PM »

I happen to agree with NHBeachBum with this.  Probably b/c any definition of soulmate is non workable for me.  It's got too much mysterious, mystical, superstitious meaning attached to it.   I think we meet who we meet in life, some people good, some less good, some affect us, some don't for a myriad of reasons, and that who we happen to meet comes down to chance.  Maybe there is a dynamic in some of us, that brings us together with unhealthier people, mixed with bad luck that ur dynamic happened to come across their dynamic.  You could have just as easily never met their awful dynamic if you'd been a half hour later, stopped for coffee, whatever.  

You might meet some one who for diff reasons brings out the best in you, you might meet someone who brings out the worst in you, I think it all comes down to chance.  It's by chance that I was born in the USA, so I had a better chance of climbing out of poverty, had more chances to go to college, still have more chances to go back to school, so on, a lot of things are purely by chance.  Yeah, I could've still not gone to school.  You act within your environment, and your environment reacts to you, there are so many variables involved that it's hard to explain to you (T2h) an alternate theory to yours.  

While I try to make sense of PDs and all, I don't really think our encounters with them have much more to do with bad luck.  I certainly wouldn't give anyone I've known w/PD an elevated status or position in my life, by giving them a title like soulmate, that has certain connotations attached, whether I believe in them or not.  I tend to agree, that would be no different than giving a murderer or scammer or rapist, or whatever caused a person harm an elevated position.  I think the people in my life that have shown me the good and the positive are the ones that deserve my attention.  That helped me heal from bad experiences.  I don't believe you need to be broken/beaten down in order to grow or discover things about yourself.  Maybe some trials and tribulations are good, but abuse and mental/physical or emotional violations from other people, nah.

For me, the best place I can reach with any of these crazy people that had a negative impact on me is indifference.  I'm there with some, not yet with others, but soulmate? When I think of the word, it still has positive meaning attached to it, so although I don't believe in it, I can't find a way to apply it to any cluster Bs from my life.  

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« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2010, 03:02:51 PM »

 A matter of historical perspective then.

During the good times I was much more apt to give him the title.  Looking back on it now, I can't see it.  A learning experience, yes.  Soul mate? --- no, I deserve better.
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« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2010, 03:18:26 PM »

I think soulmates are people that get it! people that have done the work... .people that live to love at high levels and grow at free will, free from all the chains of the past, and have a high maturity level to never ever stay stuck in their own bullhit_!  People that are capable of loving deeply, all the time. there's my opinion.
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« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2010, 03:30:04 PM »

This is as may be, and I thought for a long time, because of the immense connection sexually, that we were "starred" but I think its the case they have that sexuality withg everyone! That was the thing that depressed me the most. That I may never have such a time sexually again and that... .to all purposes, she could get that involved and fulfilled with anyone she chose.  

TS,

So would you now consider her your soul mate after all the crap that she put you through?

It seems ludicrous and ridiculous that we think of them as our soul mates. Here's an analogy - what if you were driving down the street in a nice, new car going to work and ran over a pile of glass and got a flat tire. You saw some hot babe on the side of the road snickering and bragging to her friend about how she intentionally threw glass there. You had to change your flat yourself in the hot sun, ended up being late for work and got fired. All this started because of the hot babe. So would you then put her up on a revered pedestal and elevate her status to "soul mate" because you got to finally learn how to use your tire iron and change a flat? Should we think highly of them now that we had to find a new job? Meanwhile, they offer us no value and no help for the predicament they helped to get us in, in the first place! They're off repeating the same crap on another street. Should we thank them and perceive them as teachers that have made an impact in our lives or perceive them as thugs, punks, selfish mean spirited people who we randomly encountered and had a very bad experience?

Call them what you will... .label them how you like... .everyone's perception becomes their reality in the end.

-NHBB

Eh?

No NHBB I am subscribing wholeheartedly to the school she deserves no praise or label of soulmate nor teacher. I think she's a total *****!

I;m saying that while we were together in the early days I wondered if i'd found my soulmate because being with her, sexually only, was so easy and the sex was great, she would declare and so did I.

However, like other posters, as soon as the ___ hit the fan she also declared this was not great and that I was not great. The hardest part of letting go of her was letting go of this sense of otherness that I had with her sexually.

I would never describe her as a soulmate, a confidence trickster yes, a soulmate, never. I agree with you, to be a soul mate would mean showing us ourselves and helping us become better men thru kind acts, not destroying us.
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« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2010, 03:43:42 PM »

And to take the theory maybe a step further... .and perhaps I'm wondering into strange realms but if I could claim her to be my soulmate, then, given I was addicted to her and my recovery from her felt similar to and was described as by my therapist as akin to an addiction to drugs or alcohol - can alcoholics refer to alcohol as their "soul mate"?

The deep routed lessons I've learnt about myself, and continue to learn came about because of my lack of boundaries with my BPD, she is the substance that sent me to rock bottom and forced me to look in the mirror... .so by the same token drug/alcohol abusers should thank the drinks and the drugs? No, they should give credit to themselves for beating them not to the stimulus itself. In fact it isnt even as though drink and drugs call you up at 3am begging you... .

Im sure there is a valid point in here somewhere even if I havent quite worked it thru my cogs!  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2010, 04:32:22 PM »

It's seems like you're arguing against my definition using part of your own.  Maybe I could use a different phrase so we're not getting confused (but my point was that some people use it differently than what most are used to).  I'm not starting with the premise that 'soul mates' are something all high, mighty, elevated, spiritually developed, angelic, pure, the end-all-be-all, etc, etc.  I'm saying that some people use the term in a different way - that it's two souls who came together where that interaction caused at least one of them to move to a new level of awareness.  I'm not the one who came up with this (and can barely explain it apparently).

I'm a bit confused also that you would not believe in, nor agree to, any definition of soul mates but get so worked up that I would dare to even use that term to apply it to a pwBPD.  I don't think I used the term 'teacher' to describe them - I did say they were here to teach us something and/or we learned a lesson - but putting your hand on a hot stove when you're a kid teaches you not to do that, but I wouldn't call the stove a 'teacher' (again in the elevated sense you're assigning to that word).

We can agree to disagree I guess.

ps.  I'm not against people using the other definition if they like - I don't tend to agree with the notion of one true soul mate in the world for us - but I do understand the idea.

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« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2010, 05:01:26 PM »

I'm a bit confused also that you would not believe in, nor agree to, any definition of soul mates but get so worked up that I would dare to even use that term to apply it to a pwBPD.

Who's getting worked up, we're talking. Only this.

You're throwing around emotive language "dare to use" and "worked up". This is a philosophical debate around our experiences is it not? I'm not in the least bit upset. As I said last time when you felt you offended me.

And where do I say I do not agree to, or believe in any definition of soul mate. My case Im making I THINK... .is clear.

Soul mate to me would be someone who enriches our lives via good deeds and well wishes, a positive person, a kindred soul. Like I said originally, its all about linguistics.
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« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2010, 05:31:54 PM »



Sorry - that was directed towards NHBB.

What I don't understand are the examples about holocaust, rape, drugs/alcohol to refute the definition to which I was referring. Seems a bit extreme - as well as ignoring some of what I'm saying (like 'intimate', 'someone', etc).

I'm just not sure why you're arguing against it so strongly. If I had instead said that our ex's had God inside them (which some people believe everyone does), would you give examples why that doesn't make sense? 
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« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2010, 05:35:12 PM »

*looks around and wonders if any of that was pointed towards me as the last poster or still NHBB*

*goes to bed*
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« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2010, 05:43:50 PM »

What I don't understand are the examples about rape, drugs/alcohol to refute the definition to which I was referring.

Well, I can answer part of it, from my perspective.  I think my notion of soulmate was partly rooted in the addiction to the crazy dance.  I wanted him to be my soulmate, after all he said he was.  But he was also my abuser.  I got hooked into the gamble -- on some level, I was fighting inside over whether I deserved either extreme.

I think we just need to respect that we each have had a mind-bendingly intense experience in these BP relationships.  Perspectives may be different, they may change, but it's very individual.  Even when speaking of matters more spiritual, more to do with Fate -- or perhaps especially so.  What a betrayal to find someone who was SUPPOSED to fulfill that role and then discover such a different under-side.  Very tender stuff.  Makes us try to make sense of this whole thing on a wider, more cosmic level and that's pretty overwhelming.  And in my case, it hits a nerve because the pressure to be more "officially" spiritual came from -- guess who... .
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« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2010, 06:03:59 PM »

i have learned that the world is cruel, people are in constant pain, and some people actually don't have a soul/conscience.  hmmm.  fabulous.

SMP,

Yeah... .I learned that lesson the hard way too!

T2H,

I think you give our exes WAY too much credit. I think I could have learned the same lesson WITHOUT all the drama, pain, bull___, etc. if I would have listened to my mom about girls like my exBPDgf. I never asked for the lesson and it sure wasn't worth the price I paid. The term "soul mate" really just creeps me out. I'll never forget the gut wrenching feeling I got when my exBPDgf first used it. I don't think she was put on this planet to teach me or anyone else anything. How can she possibly have so many "soul mates" that she is now the master of teaching every non what to avoid in real relationships? What if she is nothing more than a miserable, angry, bitter, abusive alcoholic who wants nothing more than to drag anyone close to her down with her? What's the lesson in that other than the obvious - "don't get emotionally involved in girls who are miserable, angry, bitter, abusive alcoholics"?

Just my humble opinion... .

-NHBB

Good point. I agree that we give them too much credit. ITS BECAUSE THEY have never TAKEN ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY OF THEIR ACTIONS! EVER!
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« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2010, 06:14:12 PM »



Thanks for your input I.S.  And to everyone else who contributed.

Have a good sleep TS.

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« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2010, 06:42:45 PM »

What he tought me was that my life was worth fighting for, that I had no bounderies,that I had so much strength when I needed it, that what I have to say matters.

When put down so deep, be so humiliated, he was the one that through his abuse, showed me that the real power is within, strength I never new I had, perseverance I never new I had, before him I felt like nothing, I was never satisfied, moody,insecure,doubtfull,questioning everything I did, everything I was.

Afraid to speak, he gave me a voice,although it was a hard, bitter,cruel way to learn,no one was ever able to learn me that.

Everything I did, before him had no value for me, no matter what people said,that it was good what I did, that I should be proud of what I did.

I know now, by surving this, I can do everything, what I thought was my soulmate became a teacher for me, should I give him credit for that?

I realy don't know, maybe not because his intention was not to learn me, his intention was much more to destroy me, I credit myself for learning, and growing, he gave me the book, and I read it.

Without him I would never had had the book, without my own effort I would never had read it.

On other levels, I would say he was or is my soulmate, I realy could feel what he felt, and I believe it was the other way around also, I guess more like simular souls,shared same losses,same childhood, more a bond in misery we shared, recognized parts in eachother, emneshed and desperate, was more the feeling, I learned a lot and I wish I could have learned him the same,but I guess he was more damaged and afraid than I was, and he had to move on... trying to find this connection again with some one else... .

WW2 Nazi/Jews well... I think that is another discussion, and we did learn from that one, so did my parents x
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« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2010, 07:09:23 PM »

It's seems like you're arguing against my definition using part of your own.  Maybe I could use a different phrase so we're not getting confused (but my point was that some people use it differently than what most are used to).  I'm not starting with the premise that 'soul mates' are something all high, mighty, elevated, spiritually developed, angelic, pure, the end-all-be-all, etc, etc.  I'm saying that some people use the term in a different way - that it's two souls who came together where that interaction caused at least one of them to move to a new level of awareness.  I'm not the one who came up with this (and can barely explain it apparently).

I'm a bit confused also that you would not believe in, nor agree to, any definition of soul mates but get so worked up that I would dare to even use that term to apply it to a pwBPD.  

Hi,

I think you meant this to someone else, but I can tell you what I think about it since I tend to agree with him on what he's said in this topic. 

Personally, I don't believe in a soul, so technically I can't offer you any definition for soul mate other than perhaps the concept of 2 people coming together that bring positive things to each other.  I still think that phrase has many mystical, otherworldly connotations attached to it, that are hard to remove.  Logically, I don't believe in god and don't believe in souls, but there is still something repulsive and disgusting to me about calling  someone with BPD that hurt me my soul mate.  Especially the pwBPD that I worked with, since we weren't in a chosen relationship and she really scrambled and fried my brains with her behavior.  I can't really say that someone that pushed me toward an emotional breakdown of sorts is someone who caused me to move to a higher or new level of awareness.  Maybe I'll change my mind on it when I've fully recovered from it all.

I know I don't look back at my ex-sociopath or ex-NPD as having helped me reach into anything positive, but I don't feel hatred toward them anymore either.  They did help me be more aware of avoiding their types in the future.  The sociopath I dated when I was 18 and I don't believe I've ever encountered 1 again, so that's good. 

I do think I get what you're saying with the definition you gave.  It's an interesting way to look at it differently.  It still makes me annoyed and icky, but maybe there is something about where I am at, that I refuse to give any credit to people who are abusive and sick and whose sickness spilled over into my life.  Do you see why it could be insulting and annoying to some people, for them to try and conceptualize an abuser as a soul mate by any definition, even by giving them credit for bringing about your change? 
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« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2010, 07:28:34 PM »

Thanks for your post Lizzie.  I'd basically *just* finished sorting through it all to understand what was going on - and you explained/articulated it well.  At one point earlier on I was actually thinking... . it seems that some are "repulsed and disgusted" by the idea - but I wasn't clear why.  We all are at different stages of healing, on different parts of our own path, and some things just rub us the wrong way.

So for those who took offense or who were upset by the topic and/or my posts - I apologize.

x

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« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2010, 09:48:41 PM »

After reading this discussion on the website, I stopped in a fast-food restaurant this evening for a salad, and they had an oldies radio station on as Musak.  Pretty surreal to hear "I never knew love before, then came you."  Got me thinking about hearing such songs of idealization --

as a kid,

while in a relationship

and/or pining to be in one.

The cultural messages are so strong, so hyped up.  Just after the breakup, some songs were so painful to hear, for the supposed meaning they had for X and me.  The few weeks before Valentines Day I thought I would overload on red and pink at the drugstore.  Strange mix of grief, numbness and diabetic sugar-shock.

But my heart and head feel in a different place now.

Similar feelings out there?
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« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2010, 10:29:31 PM »

After reading this discussion on the website, I stopped in a fast-food restaurant this evening for a salad, and they had an oldies radio station on as Musak.  Pretty surreal to hear "I never knew love before, then came you."   Got me thinking about hearing such songs of idealization --

as a kid,

while in a relationship

and/or pining to be in one.

The cultural messages are so strong, so hyped up.  Just after the breakup, some songs were so painful to hear, for the supposed meaning they had for X and me.  The few weeks before Valentines Day I thought I would overload on red and pink at the drugstore.  Strange mix of grief, numbness and diabetic sugar-shock.

But my heart and head feel in a different place now.

Similar feelings out there?

well IS I for one i will never listen to a love song in the same way i used too ever again! i find myself changing the station if she is beeing soo(or he)co-dependant... .or BPD or NPD... .you get the point... Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)... .my vision of love has changed so dramaticly its unreal... Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2010, 11:36:31 PM »

Sorry - that was directed towards NHBB.

What I don't understand are the examples about holocaust, rape, drugs/alcohol to refute the definition to which I was referring. Seems a bit extreme - as well as ignoring some of what I'm saying (like 'intimate', 'someone', etc).

I'm just not sure why you're arguing against it so strongly. If I had instead said that our ex's had God inside them (which some people believe everyone does), would you give examples why that doesn't make sense? 

T2H,

You think that's a bit extreme? Hmmmm... .maybe try getting arrested because your "soul mate" decides to lie to the police and make crap up? Welcome to my experience with BPD! Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

Quote from: turtlesoup


No NHBB I am subscribing wholeheartedly to the school she deserves no praise or label of soulmate nor teacher. I think she's a total *****!

I;m saying that while we were together in the early days I wondered if i'd found my soulmate because being with her, sexually only, was so easy and the sex was great, she would declare and so did I.

However, like other posters, as soon as the ___ hit the fan she also declared this was not great and that I was not great. The hardest part of letting go of her was letting go of this sense of otherness that I had with her sexually.

I think we may have dated the same BPD. I had the same feelings too - which is one of the reasons why I am so against the term "soul mate" in the first place.

Quote from: Manon46
What he tought me was that my life was worth fighting for, that I had no bounderies,that I had so much strength when I needed it, that what I have to say matters.

When put down so deep, be so humiliated, he was the one that through his abuse, showed me that the real power is within, strength I never new I had, perseverance I never new I had, before him I felt like nothing, I was never satisfied, moody,insecure,doubtfull,questioning everything I did, everything I was.

Afraid to speak, he gave me a voice,although it was a hard, bitter,cruel way to learn,no one was ever able to learn me that.

Everything I did, before him had no value for me, no matter what people said,that it was good what I did, that I should be proud of what I did.

I know now, by surving this, I can do everything, what I thought was my soulmate became a teacher for me, should I give him credit for that?

I realy don't know, maybe not because his intention was not to learn me, his intention was much more to destroy me, I credit myself for learning, and growing, he gave me the book, and I read it.

Manon,

This is one of my biggest issue I have with your view of a soul mate. I disagree with what you wrote - your exBPD did not "teach" you anything did he? Did he give you any tips for healing, asked about your feelings, any new coping skills, communication skills, etc. etc.? Probably none. I think you really should give yourself a LOT more credit for being smart enough to survive and get well! Why do you feel like your ex did ANYTHING to teach you? Couldn't you just substitute your relationship with ANY other random abusive BPD and you would have still figured out how to be well? What happened if you met a different abusive guy 2 years earlier - would he have taught you some specific life lesson that you really figured out on your own (or with the help of a T)? Was there really ANY specific lesson that ONLY your exBPDso taught you or was it really YOU that figured out how to get out of a very unpleasant situation that could have been caused by literally ANY abusive person that you could have had a relationship with?

What if your exBPDso drove you to the middle of a desert in summer with no food, water, gps, transportation and left you there on your own - just cut you out of his life and drove away - a life impacting event. You found the strength to find your way back to the road, get help, & get water, food, etc. Would you give your exBPDso credit for "helping" you find your strength? Would you give your exBPDso credit for "teaching" you? If so, what skills has he taught you about getting out of the situation - how to use the sun to determine direction, how to get water from a cactus, how to hunt for food, etc? He wasn't there - he did none of that. Couldn't you really substitute ANY person that could drive you to the desert - in other words, there's nothing really specific or even special about your ex other than he just happened to be the one to cause you really big issues? Apply the same analogy to your exBPDso - what skills has he taught you vs. what did you learn on your own after he was gone? As I tried to communicate numerous times on this thread, we are the ones who deserve the credit, as well as others who may have helped us (including many wise people on this board who have been down the road we had to travel). Believe it or not, I'm a very positive person. I have a LOT of really good things going on in my life. I always try to view the cup as half full. But I still don't get how someone can try to spin their experience with their exBPD as an encounter with their soul mate and give them credit for teaching them stuff when the reality is that they were probably cut out of their life and their ex had little if any to do with the real growth - the healing process. If I got cut by my exBPDgf, and I go to the hospital and a dr. stitches me up, tends to my wounds, shows me how to put anti-infection ointment on, shows me how to change the bandages, shows me how to keep it clean, helps me heal... .would I then say that my exBPDgf taught me about myself just because she caused the damage in the first place? No - it's the dr. who's doing the teaching AFTER she's already gone on.

I may have felt a connection to my exBPDgf years ago before she really got abusive and out of control and before I realized who she truly is. She taught me nothing - I learned everything on my own AFTER she cut me out of her life. I don't view us as two kindred souls who met and our lives changed forever. Not at all. I see her for who she really is: a selfish, miserable, abusive, alcoholic with a severe brain disorder and our meeting was by chance - not some comic soul mate. I made a huge mistake, suffered the consequences, and worked hard to distance myself from her and my past mistake. That's really it.

It's late... .I've rambled on this subject probably way to long. It the end, it's just a term... .everyone is going to have their own perspective on it. I think by now the nook knows my feelings... .nah, I think I'm still holding back a bit! Maybe I should really state how I feel about that! LMAO. Smiling (click to insert in post) 

-NHBB

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« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2010, 11:44:52 PM »

"Is there a perfect mate out there for me?" or "Will I meet my Soul Mate?" These are interesting questions. The entire reason for most relationships are so that you can work on your self! So with that said, the more you clear up issues for YOURSELF, the more you ARE the ‘right’ person, the more you will ATTRACT the person you are looking for.

A theory about Soul Mates could be that they are souls that have agreed to connect with you on this planet for a purpose. In some cases it is to finish unfinished business, which are usually issues with childhood wounds. And, for some it is to accomplish a particular goal together just like Manon so perfectly described. She was able to reach a level of peace within, even though it was tremendously painful. Some of these relationships are a joy to be in at first and then they turn into pain. They are here for a reason and the quicker we work on ourselves to be able to "get it" the quicker we will be able to transform from bitterness, resentment, and discontent to happy, joyful, and at peace.You can have more than one painful Soul Mate in a lifetime, at least until you "get it".

Relationships are the most challenging and the most rewarding aspects of this life. I agree with T2H the more INTIMATE the relationship the larger opportunity for growth we are given. Relationships are MIRRORS for us to learn more about ourselves. I read that there are three different types of relationship "mirrors".

One is the mirror of who you were. This mirror gives you the opportunity to see how far you have come, the chance to experience the wounds that you have already healed. You will probably think "Not this type of person... .again" But don’t get caught up in this relationship worried about why it is coming back at this time, just thank it, accept it and let it go. Unfortunately letting go for some it is easier said than done.

A second type of relationship is the one that is mirroring where you are now. If an issue or person has an emotional "charge" to it, then you still have work to do! This mirror is the hardest to look at because it reflects the things you have NOT yet finished in yourself. These are the things that we are the most blind to.

The last type of relationship is the one that mirrors your emotional growth. Once you have completely healed and are at peace with yourself and with what you have learned  through each painful and happy experience. You will allow yourself to have a glimpse at who you have become wiser/stronger and at peace through this persons "mirror". In other words, you will ATTRACT an emotionally healthy person.

So look at your various relationships and see which group they fall into. By knowing this you will gain insight into yourself. Self understanding is the entire reason for these mirrors, not to ‘fix’ the BPD, blame them, or blame previous relationships, but to look at yourself.

So, all relationships serve a purpose and should be honored and appreciated for what they have to offer you in your personal growth. Thank the person and the experiences for all that you have had the opportunity to learn and clear. Know that ALL relationships are sacred, because they bring us closer to being at peace with ourselves.
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« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2010, 12:28:56 AM »

Really excellent post, CC.  Thank you for sharing that.


I've actually read many more times that a soul mate is someone who comes to teach us something - some important lesson that we need to learn - and often with such a person, it's quite chaotic and involves a lot of pain.  

the ideal fantasy of our one true soul mate

I've read this thread a few times.  And I've gone back to read T2H's initial post several times.  Aside from my own experience, I think I better understand what T2H is sharing now after some time has passed.

The common definition for the term soul mate is: a person with whom one has a feeling of deep and natural affinity, love, intimacy, sexuality, spirituality, and/or compatibility.  Your one true love.  The ultimate match to you.  This is the ideal fantasy of our one true soul mate, as T2H wrote above.

The uncommon definition for the term soul mate is: a person who unknowingly teaches you an important lesson through an intimate relationship that can at times involve chaos and pain, again as T2H wrote above.

If I throw the definition I'm more familiar with out the window (that'd be the common definition), I would agree that my husband was my soul mate because throughout our relationship, and even after the relationship has ended, I learned valuable lessons from him.  I learned things about myself that I never knew before -- some of those things are good and some are not so good.  I learned what I can be capable of.  I learned what I cannot tolerate.  I learned specific details about myself -- behaviors, traits, personality issues, etc. -- throughout our six years together.  I would not have learned any of these things without the particular dynamic that he lent to the equation.  Meaning, the same things may not have been learned from a different soul, even if that different soul has BPD.


I thought this was an (clears throat) interesting side note:

One story about soulmates, presented by Aristophanes in Plato's Symposium, is that humans originally consisted of four arms, four legs, and a single head made of two faces, but Zeus feared their power and split them all in half, condemning them to spend their lives searching for the other half to complete them.  (Now that makes me cringe!  cue Jerry Maguire music now... .  "You complete me."  blech!)

This is a touchy and sensitive subject and it's hard for us to be objective because so many of us have been subjected to this particular phrase/conversation.  (Lots of jects in there!)  I think it's important for us to remember that we all have valid and oftentimes differing opinions.  And we also have different feelings about our exes -- some of us are filled with hatred and some of us ambivalence, while some of us are filled with relief and others filled with depression and dread.  Although we have similar stories, we each walked our own path to get here.  Regardless of these differences, we're all in the same NON CAMP together. 
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« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2010, 08:36:44 AM »

One view of verbal abuse is that one person is in a “power over” world and the victim is in a world of “mutuality”--- the victim stays engaged because h/she believes the abuser would care if the abuser just understood differently--- when in fact the abuser just wants to goad into, or keep the the victim in submission.  I think betrayal bonding and verbal abuse dynamics kept me engaged with my x--- it was my failure to understand that her devaluing was a “power over” scapegoating event--- that the door to her heart had closed and she was looking at me through a peep show window--- it was hostile, fearful, and vindictive.  She wanted to mangle my spirit.   And then later I wanted to forget about this--- not appreciating the damage done. That is the insidious part--- like frogs that don’t understand that slowly warming water destined to a boil is very dangerous, the only way I could have found value in our experiences was to be separated and to develop enough esteem stay out of the hot bath,  and to understand how bad this was.  While I have grown tremendously from the pain and suffering I am also damaged.  Will I be stronger then before---- yes, in ways.  But I can’t measure if the damage or my “new world view” leaves me better off.  I think I am beginning to understand and experience a deeper intimacy again in my new relationship.  How scarey it can be--- but so very cool.  I can spot verbal abuse and borderline traits with precision.  Yes, there are mixed blessings in all of this.  When I consider my x as a soul mate it unnerves me--- because I don’t have the confidence yet to love that which falsely represents itself.  I imagine buying vitamins at the store and after taking them for months getting a recall notice because they are tainted with poison.    Why do I have to build such elaborate defenses?  Because when I ask the question like Dorothy in the Wizard of OZ--- “ Are you a good witch, or a bad witch?  The answers in my brain don’t include yet All of the Above .    To love my x now is to cosmically love her--- to love her with thoughtful detachment…but not in a trusting way… not in my revelation to her.  As in to learn to charm a cobra?   I am appropriately convinced she didn’t really care to understand me--- maybe seemingly so, but it was what she did before she went into “power over".  And because of that one missing criteria, she doesn’t make the grade as soul mate.  And I feel freer just writing that.  Thanks.  I guess soul mate means more of an inner circle thing to me.  By the length of my response I guess I needed that... .  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2010, 11:05:42 AM »

I thought this was an (clears throat) interesting side note:

One story about soulmates, presented by Aristophanes in Plato's Symposium, is that humans originally consisted of four arms, four legs, and a single head made of two faces, but Zeus feared their power and split them all in half, condemning them to spend their lives searching for the other half to complete them.

Thanks for this.  The word "condemned" puts an interesting spin on it.  Like the Narcissus myth, isn't it a fable for avoiding the preoccupation rather than making it into an ultimate, righteous quest?  Neither story implies fulfillment.

I imagine buying vitamins at the store and after taking them for months getting a recall notice because they are tainted with poison.    Why do I have to build such elaborate defenses?  Because when I ask the question like Dorothy in the Wizard of OZ--- “ Are you a good witch, or a bad witch?  The answers in my brain don’t include yet All of the Above .  

There's a great lyric by Stephen Sondheim, "Witches can be right, giants can be good."

Considering the ideal of a soulmate in more heady -- philosophical, Jungian -- terms feels helpful at the moment.  And relieves it (at least the concept) of the codependent notion of being incomplete without the perfect match, the need in our minds and hearts to make someone conform to fit the role.

Think in American culture of the number of popular songs, all the messages from the media that drive home the fantasy!  Heck, when I was 4 years old, I got a bride doll.  (Which brings up a whole other issue -- are there groom dolls for little boys?)
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« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2010, 11:40:39 AM »

Excerpt
If I throw the definition I'm more familiar with out the window (that'd be the common definition), I would agree that my husband was my soul mate because throughout our relationship, and even after the relationship has ended, I learned valuable lessons from him.  I learned things about me that I never knew before -- some of those things are good and some are not so good.  I learned what I can be capable of.  I learned what I cannot tolerate.  I learned specific details about myself -- behaviors, traits, personality issues, etc. -- throughout our six years together.  I would not have learned any of these things without the particular dynamic that he lent to the equation.  Meaning, the same things may not have been learned from a different soul, even if that different soul has BPD.

I agree with you 100%, thanks to my exBPD I was able to heal wounds that I never knew I had. I also learned a lot about boundaries, healthy relationships, and communication. Would I have learned this with someone else? Probably, but without the emotional charge behind it I don't think I would had been able to "get it" and moved on into a place of peace with myself and accepting that my struggles/pain had a purpose.

Excerpt
One story about soul mates, presented by Aristophanes in Plato's Symposium, is that humans originally consisted of four arms, four legs, and a single head made of two faces, but Zeus feared their power and split them all in half, condemning them to spend their lives searching for the other half to complete them.  (Now that makes me cringe!  cue Jerry Maguire music now... .  "You complete me."  blech!)

WOW interesting, thank you for sharing. I also read a little something about Zeus “Zeus ordained that only in sorrow and in suffering do we find wisdom's way... .by suffering we shall gain understanding.” Aeschylus, Agamemnon

Excerpt
This is a touchy and sensitive subject and it's hard for us to be objective because so many of us have been subjected to this particular phrase/conversation.  (Lots of jects in there!)  I think it's important for us to remember that we all have valid and oftentimes differing opinions.  And we also have different feelings about our exes -- some of us are filled with hatred and some of us ambivalence, while some of us are filled with relief and others filled with depression and dread.  Although we have similar stories, we each walked our own path to get here.  Regardless of these differences, we're all in the same NON CAMP together. 

I agree with you……... again Smiling (click to insert in post)!  We are all in different phases of healing. So it will be hard for some to understand the message or agree with some of our posts. There are a few that are still going through a lot of emotions and all we can do is hope that one day they can get through it and find peace.

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« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2010, 02:06:20 PM »

Well NHB, nobody said that teachers had to be nice guys...

I could also have said, life tought me a lesson using my exBPD/NPD/ASPD/OCPD  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I am also very very sure, that not every person with a disorder or an abusive person could have tought me this lesson.

He had to be the one, because he was appearently the only one who could touch my soul, and I still do remember very clear how he did that.

I didn't say I credit him for what he tought me, or the way he did that, I am sure he wasn't even aware that he was teaching me something, and it was not his intention to teach me anything but being much less that a doormat.

But if I don't credit him, why should I than blame him, for him being what he is, or what he became.

No all I learned was after he left. What I learned while he was here, is the reason he left.

I brought up two children mostly by myself, and during their youth they had to learn a lot of things the hard way.

Why? Because they would'nt listen, after three or four warnings, still don't listen, it's probably going to hurt one way or the other.

Falling of bikes, burning on candles, fingers between doors, these are things you have no control over.

And being hurt forces you to change behaviors, forces you to look different, why? Because it hurts, and nobody likes that.

So by hurting me he forces me to change myself to make sure I wasn't going to be hurt again.

He tought me valueable things, he tought me I had to change in order to learn about bounderies, he forced me to look within, and why I was taking this abuse, he showed me after he left how addicted I was.

He tought me by his behavior, that he was a person, I would never want to be.

He also tought me how to enjoy things, and how nice it was to do things together.

I think we are all teachers and all students at the same time. Ofcourse sometimes I feel overwhelmed by extreme hate, only recently, I was knocked out by so much hate, which came over me, thinking back on what he did, the damage he has done, and sometimes I still get overwhelmed by an extreme feeling of missing, and lonelyness without him.

And ofcourse it was by my own effort and survinginstincts I got out of it. Without him, I would not have been where I am now.

Before him I was married 15 years to a kind man, he never was able to touch my soul, or learn me any lesson.

But to move on much healthier as I was, I learned to hate the sin, but not the sinner.

As you see your ex, in your reality, I see my ex in my reality, I see a very damaged and hurt person, someone who is not able to enjoy the meaning of life, someone who is not able to love his children and to be loved back.

I see a man who is so extremely scared of everything that he always has to be on guard, I see a man who is relieved when he finally can stop this life. I see a man who can never rest because he than is haunted by the ghosts of his past.

I see a man who so much hates himself, that in order to not feel that, he has to hate everybody around him.

And I see a man, who will never see that, who will never see how he destroys himself, and I do feel so sorry for him.

Sorry that he is going to be hurt over and over again, because he will not learn, no matter how many teachers he has.

He hurts him self more than anyone could ever do. Sometimes I could see the fear in his eyes,followed by pure hate.

I felt his emotions, and I almost drowned in it.

Reality is that I do love him, but not trust him. Reality shows how evil he can be, how destructive he can be and how wonderful he can be.

Whether the glass is half full or half empty, has imo nothing to do with being positive or negative.

Reality is that when it's empty its emtpy, and when its full is full, it doesn't become more or less by the way you look at it.

Seeing it half full is positive only if you see it as negative if it is empty. When it doesn't matter to you i.e indifference you see reality.

Being positive I see this wonderfull man I had the best time with I ever had, being negative I see a man who almost destroyed me.

Reality is, a damaged man, who is dangerous to me,I 'don't have to hate him, and I don't have to love him.

He is evil or he is God, good or bad, right or wrong, sick or sane, for me he is some one I have to avoid. That doesn/t make him anything else but not good for me. x

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« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2010, 05:52:36 PM »

Well NHB, nobody said that teachers had to be nice guys...

I could also have said, life tought me a lesson using my exBPD/NPD/ASPD/OCPD  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I am also very very sure, that not every person with a disorder or an abusive person could have tought me this lesson.

He had to be the one, because he was appearently the only one who could touch my soul, and I still do remember very clear how he did that.

I didn't say I credit him for what he tought me, or the way he did that, I am sure he wasn't even aware that he was teaching me something, and it was not his intention to teach me anything but being much less that a doormat.

But if I don't credit him, why should I than blame him, for him being what he is, or what he became.

No all I learned was after he left. What I learned while he was here, is the reason he left.

I brought up two children mostly by myself, and during their youth they had to learn a lot of things the hard way.

Why? Because they would'nt listen, after three or four warnings, still don't listen, it's probably going to hurt one way or the other.

Falling of bikes, burning on candles, fingers between doors, these are things you have no control over.

And being hurt forces you to change behaviors, forces you to look different, why? Because it hurts, and nobody likes that.

So by hurting me he forces me to change myself to make sure I wasn't going to be hurt again.

He tought me valueable things, he tought me I had to change in order to learn about bounderies, he forced me to look within, and why I was taking this abuse, he showed me after he left how addicted I was.

He tought me by his behavior, that he was a person, I would never want to be.

He also tought me how to enjoy things, and how nice it was to do things together.

I think we are all teachers and all students at the same time. Ofcourse sometimes I feel overwhelmed by extreme hate, only recently, I was knocked out by so much hate, which came over me, thinking back on what he did, the damage he has done, and sometimes I still get overwhelmed by an extreme feeling of missing, and lonelyness without him.

And ofcourse it was by my own effort and survinginstincts I got out of it. Without him, I would not have been where I am now.

Before him I was married 15 years to a kind man, he never was able to touch my soul, or learn me any lesson.

But to move on much healthier as I was, I learned to hate the sin, but not the sinner.

As you see your ex, in your reality, I see my ex in my reality, I see a very damaged and hurt person, someone who is not able to enjoy the meaning of life, someone who is not able to love his children and to be loved back.

I see a man who is so extremely scared of everything that he always has to be on guard, I see a man who is relieved when he finally can stop this life. I see a man who can never rest because he than is haunted by the ghosts of his past.

I see a man who so much hates himself, that in order to not feel that, he has to hate everybody around him.

And I see a man, who will never see that, who will never see how he destroys himself, and I do feel so sorry for him.

Sorry that he is going to be hurt over and over again, because he will not learn, no matter how many teachers he has.

He hurts him self more than anyone could ever do. Sometimes I could see the fear in his eyes,followed by pure hate.

I felt his emotions, and I almost drowned in it.

Reality is that I do love him, but not trust him. Reality shows how evil he can be, how destructive he can be and how wonderful he can be.

Whether the glass is half full or half empty, has imo nothing to do with being positive or negative.

Reality is that when it's empty its emtpy, and when its full is full, it doesn't become more or less by the way you look at it.

Seeing it half full is positive only if you see it as negative if it is empty. When it doesn't matter to you i.e indifference you see reality.

Being positive I see this wonderfull man I had the best time with I ever had, being negative I see a man who almost destroyed me.

Reality is, a damaged man, who is dangerous to me,I 'don't have to hate him, and I don't have to love him.

He is evil or he is God, good or bad, right or wrong, sick or sane, for me he is some one I have to avoid. That doesn/t make him anything else but not good for me. x

Amen!
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« Reply #75 on: June 30, 2010, 08:51:33 PM »

Well NHB, nobody said that teachers had to be nice guys...

I didn't say I credit him for what he tought me, or the way he did that, I am sure he wasn't even aware that he was teaching me something, and it was not his intention to teach me anything but being much less that a doormat.

And being hurt forces you to change behaviors, forces you to look different, why? Because it hurts, and nobody likes that.

So by hurting me he forces me to change myself to make sure I wasn't going to be hurt again.

He tought me valueable things, he tought me I had to change in order to learn about bounderies, he forced me to look within, and why I was taking this abuse, he showed me after he left how addicted I was.

He tought me by his behavior, that he was a person, I would never want to be.

He also tought me how to enjoy things, and how nice it was to do things together.

I think we are all teachers and all students at the same time.

Manon,

As a single/divorced parent of two kids, congrats on raising your kids. It's not easy. I can't even imagine how difficult it would be if my ex-wife (non) had BPD. Ugh!

Anyway - I have had teachers that were bad guys... .yet they were good teachers. That's not my issue. I would agree that you don't have to be a "nice guy" to be a teacher.

What I'm struggling with is how can anyone say that their exBPDso is any kind of a teacher (good or bad) if they aren't physically present in their life and they cut off all communication? How can you teach someone anything if you don't communicate? Even if they were a wonderful person, wouldn't they need to be in communication with us in order to teach us a lesson?

Being hurt does sometimes make us more aware of our situation. Many times we do figure out that we don't like our environment and change. Some people do make the change, some don't. And some go back and forth for a while. I think the reality is that we learn our lessons on our own, sometimes with the help of others that aren't the BPD. I don't think the decisions we make are affected by our BPD "teaching" us something. i think it's more the reality that I'm very uncomfortable being near this person because I've felt pain before, I learned what can happen, so I don't want to repeat this painful experience. I don't think your exBPDso forced you how to look within. Wasn't it more that you got yourself in a crappy situation and you figured out that the only real solution to this problem was to look within? Maybe I'm wrong but did your exBPDso state during a session with a T "Manon... .maybe it's time that you look within and make a change in yourself"? If so, then I am wrong and maybe he really was a great teacher - even though still a bad guy. Did your exBPDso tell you "Manon - you are really addicted. Isn't it time that you made a change"? Or did you maybe hit rock bottom after he left and you figured out (on your own or with a T) by looking at yourself, you may have an additive personality?

It seems like many of us have come so far on our journeys, yet I don't get how we can say that our exes "taught" us things when the reality is we learned them on our own. Sure - because of our encounter with them maybe our paths in life changed but weren't we the ones who had to be both student and teacher at the same time learning much as we went along? Did they perhaps alter our course in life? maybe... .but teacher? not really.

-NHBB
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« Reply #76 on: June 30, 2010, 09:49:50 PM »

Great thread you've got going here. 

I just read an excellent book, "Eyes Wide Open", about practicing discernment on the spiritual path but it has many applications to life in general. The author writes of Spiritually Transmitted Diseases (love it!) and how some of these so-called spiritual leaders/teachers are simply full of themselves and masters of pulling the wool over their followers eyes. Not so very different from BPDs, eh?

A common acquaintance w/my exuBPDf mentioned to me a few weeks back that the BPD is back on the dating boards, with the same profile he had 10 years ago, still looking for his "soul mate" on the web. 

I'm beginning to think it ought to be mandatory for dating sites to contain a direct link to this one!
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« Reply #77 on: June 30, 2010, 09:51:49 PM »

NHBB,

IMO, soul mate does not necessarily mean 'teacher'.

Second, there are lots of things that teach you stuff without them intentionally telling you exactly what to do.  Aren't the best teachers in school the ones who motivate and inspire?  Not just stating exactly what you're doing or not doing.

Third, if you prefer, how about initiator/catalyst or something along those lines instead.

If they were just crappy abusive drunks all the time, none of us would have got close enough and stayed as long as we did.  In some of our cases, those people bonded with our soul, on the parts where we had weaknesses - and in parting, in a way they showed us what we still needed to work on.

Would you get involved with someone like your ex again?  No?  Then you learned something - whether she taught you or not, she was involved, and had some contribution to that.  But as you said, maybe not a soul mate for you.  My ex was one - I have been one to a previous ex (of course each of those in much different ways).  But just like the ideal fantasy version... . you may live your life without ever meeting one.  Well especially if you don't believe in the term.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #78 on: June 30, 2010, 09:53:19 PM »

NHBB x

It's so funny that you wrote:

Excerpt
exBPDso state during a session with a T "Manon... .maybe it's time that you look within and make a change in yourself"?"

... .Because my exBPDbf often told me that I needed to look at myself (in our couples counseling and outside of it- our lives were a 24/7 counseling session ;p ), and also look at this and this and this and this (you know the drill) all the things wrong with me.  I think part of their 'sneakyness' (is that a word?) is that they take small (or large) snippits (word?) of truth and blow them out of proportion.  I was left wondering if I was a horrible person. 

If it wasn't for someone that I felt I cared about so much (and needed, due to all that codependence), I don't think I would have changed as much as fast, and become so committed to continual change.  I have had miserable people in my life before, but it took someone that severe that I felt truly intimate with, to initiate the changes I made in my life.  I have been to counseling before, and they did help me see 'things'.  But in no way did my life change for the better to the extent it did during and after my BPD experience.  But, in reality I don't think any teacher or counselor or mentor actually 'teaches' me.  I learn myself.  They bring things to my life and I use them, or not.

I think we are all seeing the same things, just interpreting them in different ways based on our experience and philosophies, and using different terms to describe the experience. 

Oh, and I never use the term soulmate in the traditional way because I always saw it in the sense of there was only one person in the world 'for' you (whatever that meant).  I mean, what if he was in China?  Crap!

Take care,

Foiles

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« Reply #79 on: June 30, 2010, 09:56:04 PM »

Oh and I'm not from China.
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« Reply #80 on: June 30, 2010, 09:58:02 PM »

Oh and I'm not from China.

This cracked me up!  I was going to write, before you posted this, "They have these things called airplanes and you could go to China!  If you're scared of flying, I bet there's a reason that phrase 'a slow boat to China' was so popular once upon a time!"  Silly.
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« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2010, 10:03:14 PM »

But how would I even know he was there?  Oh, yeah, eharmony.
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« Reply #82 on: June 30, 2010, 10:06:13 PM »

Haha.  Hasn't someone come up with a 'soul mate finder' website yet?

Just our luck that a pwBPD would make it so it always pointed to him/her... .

ps.  Ni hao foiles !

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« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2010, 10:10:02 PM »

Second, there are lots of things that teach you stuff without them intentionally telling you exactly what to do.  Aren't the best teachers in school the ones who motivate and inspire?  Not just stating exactly what you're doing or not doing.

Third, if you prefer, how about initiator/catalyst or something along those lines instead.

Then, by the definition that you gave earlier, wouldn't anyone you had a significant relationship with, that caused you to change, be a soul mate? That could be anyone that I've been friends with, related to, etc.  I don't see what makes any person not a soul mate then, under that definition.  It could include the person that rear ended me years ago b/c I learned a lot from that situation.  I don't even know her, but she changed the way I handle car insurance, any future car accidents.  Or am I not understanding correctly, does it have to be a person you were intimate with?

In some of our cases, those people bonded with our soul, on the parts where we had weaknesses

This, to me sounds more like the traditional soul mate definition, rather than the alternate you provided.  


Another thing, what if the change that comes about in you is negative.  Is the other person still a "soul mate"?  If they help push you to say financial ruin, bitterness, mistrust, selfishness.  Say the person pushes the other person so far that they do things they never had like physical violence or road raging?  I'm just curious if this would still fall under the definition here.   
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« Reply #84 on: June 30, 2010, 10:18:50 PM »

But how would I even know he was there?  Oh, yeah, eharmony.

Maybe I should go on my journey to China to find my soul mate. I'm sure she is frustrated looking for me on eHarmony.

All of you here are my real true soul mates for pointing me on my one true destiny to find my endearing soul mate. I love you all. I must now go and book my travel to Beijing... .or Shanghai? I suppose I should learn Mandarin or Cantonese... .at least enough to say some cute little catch phrases like "hey baby - can I buy you some lo mein"? Or "what's your sign baby - pig or horse"? or my favorite "You're my soul mate... .I've waited my whole life for you"! OMG - maybe I did learn something from my exBPDgf? Smiling (click to insert in post)

-NHBB
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« Reply #85 on: June 30, 2010, 10:28:45 PM »

NHBB,

Second, there are lots of things that teach you stuff without them intentionally telling you exactly what to do.  Aren't the best teachers in school the ones who motivate and inspire?  Not just stating exactly what you're doing or not doing.

Yes but while those best teachers never gave me the answers, they were present, at school, and lead me to where I needed to be - not left me in the dark.

Quote from: T2H


Third, if you prefer, how about initiator/catalyst or something along those lines instead.

If they were just crappy abusive drunks all the time, none of us would have got close enough and stayed as long as we did.  In some of our cases, those people bonded with our soul, on the parts where we had weaknesses - and in parting, in a way they showed us what we still needed to work on.

Would you get involved with someone like your ex again?  No?  Then you learned something - whether she taught you or not, she was involved, and had some contribution to that.  But as you said, maybe not a soul mate for you.  My ex was one - I have been one to a previous ex (of course each of those in much different ways).  But just like the ideal fantasy version... . you may live your life without ever meeting one.  Well especially if you don't believe in the term.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Yes - no doubt my exBPDgf was involved and did contribute a bit maybe to alter my path. And yes, she wasn't just a crappy abusive drunk all the time. She was rather very pleasant some of the time... .like the middle of the night when she was sound asleep and couldn't rage on me! LOL. In the end I don't think she bonded with my soul. I think she merely told me crap that she thought I wanted to hear in order to manipulate me. She told me many times that she really did mean all the bullcaca she spewed during the white knight courting phase. I think I bonded much more with my ex-wife (non) since we had many more good times and shared many other experiences. But like you say, I don't believe in that term anyway! Smiling (click to insert in post)

-NHBB

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« Reply #86 on: June 30, 2010, 11:15:06 PM »

Lizzie... .No. Yes. Maybe. Up to you. Smiling (click to insert in post)

NHBB... .if you want, I can teach (!) you how to say "I think you're cute" in Chinese. And just in case you get lost on the way: "I'm a crazy person" in Japanese.

Now how do you say "lock it down" in non-ese?

(is that better or worse than dis-ease?)

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« Reply #87 on: June 30, 2010, 11:38:04 PM »

Excerpt
Or am I not understanding correctly, does it have to be a person you were intimate with?

? I think that has been posted several times through the thread, did you miss it?

Excerpt
Yes but while those best teachers never gave me the answers, they were present, at school, and lead me to where I needed to be - not left me in the dark.

I usually skip reading your posts since you stated since the beginning that you don't believe in the term. So to me there is no point in reading them. What I noticed on the beginning of one of your posts  is that you state things literally, when everyone here is using it as similes, so obviously we are not seeing things in the same way. Like it was posted earlier, we are all in different phases and that's OK.

What confuses me, is the fact that you don't believe in term but continue posting trying to prove your point that the use of the term is wrong or even dumb. I think everyone here "gets" that you don't believe in it, we've accepted it, and moved on. But I don't think you "get" that we are not debating or changing our views.
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« Reply #88 on: July 01, 2010, 12:14:39 AM »

Lizzie... .No. Yes. Maybe. Up to you. Smiling (click to insert in post)

Maybe they are my soul mates from the dark side  Smiling (click to insert in post)   I kind of like that.  errr, Not that I like it, but that is more understandable to me.
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« Reply #89 on: July 01, 2010, 02:13:54 PM »



Dispatched by Lord Vader... .

;p  

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« Reply #90 on: July 01, 2010, 02:20:49 PM »

Lizzie... .No. Yes. Maybe. Up to you. Smiling (click to insert in post)

Maybe they are my soul mates from the dark side  Smiling (click to insert in post)   I kind of like that.  errr, Not that I like it, but that is more understandable to me.

Now that you mention that, I often felt he brought out the worst in me... .
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« Reply #91 on: July 01, 2010, 04:11:00 PM »

I realize I'm jumping in really late here, but I find this post interesting.

I have also heard of the "alternative" definition of a soul mate.  I can't recall where.  Possibly in a World Religions class I took years ago.  Anyway.  I do believe my h was A soul mate in that sense.  My understanding of that definition is that there can be many soul mates in your life in that sense.  My understanding was also that yes, they have to be someone who you were intimate with in some way (not necessarily sexually intimate, but they had some major role or influence on your life in order to be able to bring about a major change in you).  Essentially, because of your interactions with this person, you and/or your life course is forever changed.

I very much like that definition of soul mate, although I do still feel that just hearing the world "soul mate" kinda feels a bit akin to being doused in scalding water, because my h used to say this a lot, and it's what drew me in.  But at the same time, I believe that we grow most from the most painful events in our life.

In my case, I had never dealt with a LOT of past trauma until the falling apart of this marriage.  I could talk about things that happened in my past in a very matter-of-fact way ("My parents were abusive and treated me like crap" or "Yeah, I was raped in college." but I had NEVER been able to really realize and acknowledge how these events truly shaped me as a person.  I didn't understand why I did a lot of the things I did, especially in relationships.  This experience made me take a look at everything about how I relate to others in romantic relationships, my trust, who I'm attracted to, my codependent characteristics, and so on- and forced me to do a complete overhaul.

I think it's a little silly to argue the alternative definition as if that definition doesn't exist.  I mean, there's two different definitions of the word.  To me, that's like arguing about the two definitions of the word left... .like someone says "I left my uBPDw today" and someone else arguing that "left" is a direction, like the opposite of right.  The word has two meanings... .maybe you feel your pwBPD was the "traditional" type of soul mate... .maybe you feel she/he was the alternative type of soul mate... .or maybe you don't believe they were either type of soul mate.

For me, personally, I VERY much believed my h was the traditional type of soul mate when I was dating him and until after I married him.  Now, however, I do not believe there is any such thing in the traditional sense.  This is another area where I have learned and grown based on this experience.  Before, I thought real love was like in the movies, you just gotta find "The One" and then you live happily ever after.  I believe I have had a couple soul mates in the alternative sense, and perhaps I will have more.

I think it's interesting that some of us very much feel that our pwBPD were our soul mates in the alternative sense, and some of us cringe at the thought.  I wonder if it is because I feel that I'm mostly past the anger and bitterness feelings?  Or because I see my h as a person I pity, a truly hurt and abused soul who didn't ask to be that way and probably isn't capable of lasting happiness?  Or maybe it has something to do with the fact that this isn't the first time I've experience some pretty major trauma and in the midst of the trauma I have always felt that I am a fighter and came out stronger on the other side?  Or maybe because I absolutely detest feeling like a victim?  I can acknowledge the pain someone caused me and the horrors done to me, but feel that it's very important to my own emotional health that I try to turn it into as much of a positive as possible and see my own opportunities for growth.  For me, feeling like a victim or failing to own my share of responsibility in a situation just keeps me stuck.  Or maybe it's because I can truly see how much I have grown and changed as a result of this relationship?  Truly more emotional growth than I have ever experienced from anything else in my entire life... .

This is a very interesting topic!   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)   It's been quite good and therapeutic for me to think on!
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« Reply #92 on: July 01, 2010, 05:52:47 PM »

Excerpt
Yes but while those best teachers never gave me the answers, they were present, at school, and lead me to where I needed to be - not left me in the dark.

I usually skip reading your posts since you stated since the beginning that you don't believe in the term. So to me there is no point in reading them. What I noticed on the beginning of one of your posts  is that you state things literally, when everyone here is using it as similes, so obviously we are not seeing things in the same way. Like it was posted earlier, we are all in different phases and that's OK.

What confuses me, is the fact that you don't believe in term but continue posting trying to prove your point that the use of the term is wrong or even dumb. I think everyone here "gets" that you don't believe in it, we've accepted it, and moved on. But I don't think you "get" that we are not debating or changing our views.

CC,

If you skip reading my posts since I don't believe in the term "soul mate" then how did you copy and paste one of my quotes? Interesting. I wasn't even posting to you - if you read my reply it was in reference to Manon. If she doesn't want to reply back , that's fine, she can ignore me or reply back - it's her choice.

Apparently you have an issue with me posting my point of view and discussing why I feel the way I do. I didn't realize that we aren't allowed to post our point of view and have a discussion on this board unless you approve the content or our opinion agrees with yours. Thanks for clarifying CC. Now I "get it". I will stop posting on this board and move on.

Best of luck on your journey.

-NHBB

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« Reply #93 on: July 01, 2010, 11:18:36 PM »

Thanks for your input 28paws!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

And to everyone else who contributed to make this such a great discussion!  

It clarified some things for me - interestingly not about soul mates though.  ;p   I hope others got something positive from it as well.


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« Reply #94 on: July 02, 2010, 11:27:00 AM »

Excerpt
Yes but while those best teachers never gave me the answers, they were present, at school, and lead me to where I needed to be - not left me in the dark.

I usually skip reading your posts since you stated since the beginning that you don't believe in the term. So to me there is no point in reading them. What I noticed on the beginning of one of your posts  is that you state things literally, when everyone here is using it as similes, so obviously we are not seeing things in the same way. Like it was posted earlier, we are all in different phases and that's OK.

What confuses me, is the fact that you don't believe in term but continue posting trying to prove your point that the use of the term is wrong or even dumb. I think everyone here "gets" that you don't believe in it, we've accepted it, and moved on. But I don't think you "get" that we are not debating or changing our views.

CC,

If you skip reading my posts since I don't believe in the term "soul mate" then how did you copy and paste one of my quotes? Interesting. I wasn't even posting to you - if you read my reply it was in reference to Manon. If she doesn't want to reply back , that's fine, she can ignore me or reply back - it's her choice.

Apparently you have an issue with me posting my point of view and discussing why I feel the way I do. I didn't realize that we aren't allowed to post our point of view and have a discussion on this board unless you approve the content or our opinion agrees with yours. Thanks for clarifying CC. Now I "get it". I will stop posting on this board and move on.

Best of luck on your journey.

-NHBB

NHBB x

I apologize if my post gave you the message that your opinion isn’t important, or that you can’t share it. That was not at all my intention, because it is important. We all have different points of view, different stages of healing, and different experiences with our xBPD. But even if we have different opinions, it doesn’t give us the right to ridicule, use sarcasm, and downright attack someone else’s point of view because it doesn’t match ours. You posted several times attacking the term and to be honest I don’t think that’s very helpful for anyone on this board. We should share our opinions and accept others. Like I said before, I understand you don’t believe in the term, and that’s fine with everyone here. But I won’t sit here and use sarcasm to why your point of view is wrong/dumb/twisted just because it doesn’t fit mine.

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« Reply #95 on: July 02, 2010, 12:01:39 PM »

Thanks for your input 28paws!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Thanks for starting this thread T2H.  I love threads like this.  Keep 'em coming.  Makes me feel like I just came from a really great therapy session.   Smiling (click to insert in post) Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #96 on: July 02, 2010, 01:13:13 PM »

How about if we loosen up the idea? 

I think the point is in each individual case, whether the relationship seems to have had A Reason in our lives, or whether it's seen as mere anomaly.  If not predestined per se (and even if you know now that given a 2nd chance you'd never do it again), it seems to me a valuable opportunity to look back and take in the personal challenges and lessons at face value.   To me, it's helpful to think of it in a bigger-picture way -- BPD is a disease of intimacy, it seems to require closeness and some exclusivity to have an impact on those closest.  X when most disordered, was like a heat-seeking missile.  To inflate himself at my expense, he fought dirty, he sought out the chinks in my armor; it's on me now to work on them.  Was it a gift?  Hell no.  Are there things to learn?  Sure.

If I take the word Soul out if it and broaden the definition of "mate", I can give similar stature to other relationships (platonic, professional, etc.) as interactions that revealed important ways for me to grow.  Wouldn't go thru them again, that's for sure, but now that I have, I'm much more aware of red flags and my own boundaries.  And I'll never again get screwed in a copyright dispute for lack of a written agreement at the very outset.  Maybe I'll write up a more general manifesto for myself, with a commitment to honor my gut feelings.
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« Reply #97 on: July 02, 2010, 04:40:37 PM »

Keep 'em coming.  Makes me feel like I just came from a really great therapy session.   Smiling (click to insert in post) Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Haha.  Good.

I have a few others in mind - but traveling at the moment.

Have a good holiday weekend all! 

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« Reply #98 on: July 03, 2010, 08:46:22 AM »

I'm having a hard time with this thread.  Apparently the person who has had the BIGGEST impact on one's life is your soul mate?  Or someone teaching you a lesson you must learn?

Well there was one person who had the BIGGEST impact on my life, when I was about 18, and I don't even know his name.  He came at me with a knife one night as I was walking down the street, held it to my throat, dragged me behind some bushes and visciously raped me.  I moved from the East coast to the West coast a month later and tried to put it out of my mind.  As a lesbian, I never even thought about pregnancy, until my breasts began to leak milk.  Then came the late stage abortion.

Perhaps this man is my soul mate?

I think I am going to throw up.
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« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2010, 07:31:15 AM »



I'm sorry about your horrible experience cin.

As stated several times (but lost in some of the confusion / counter posts), the definition to which I was referring talks about people we are intimately involved with - ie. we choose to be with them, and that that results in a large positive growth experience (although it's possible that there is a lot of conflict/turmoil/negative stuff first - in fact that's probably likely since we learn the most through great suffering).

You have every right to choose your definition, or not believe in the term at all.



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« Reply #100 on: July 04, 2010, 07:35:48 AM »

I'm having a hard time with this thread.  Apparently the person who has had the BIGGEST impact on one's life is your soul mate?  Or someone teaching you a lesson you must learn?

Well there was one person who had the BIGGEST impact on my life, when I was about 18, and I don't even know his name.  He came at me with a knife one night as I was walking down the street, held it to my throat, dragged me behind some bushes and visciously raped me.  I moved from the East coast to the West coast a month later and tried to put it out of my mind.  As a lesbian, I never even thought about pregnancy, until my breasts began to leak milk.  Then came the late stage abortion.

Perhaps this man is my soul mate?

I think I am going to throw up.

I am realy sorry you had to go through such a horrible experience, but I don't think you can refer to this person as a soulmate.

Imo there has to be a connection between two on a spiritual level,but there are different opinions on the term, in my case, he felt absolutely as a soulmate, became more a soulvampire, and I learned a lesson, and he tought me one... the experience is personal and it doesn't realy matter how you call it, does it... the outcome is appearantly the same for all of us, and for my own sake, it is better not to linger in hate and anger, and feel that way towards him... it serves no one... .my soul is back in place... his is still searching and wandering... it will always be... x

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Manon46
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« Reply #101 on: July 04, 2010, 07:37:13 AM »

I'm sorry about your horrible experience cin.

As stated several times (but lost in some of the confusion / counter posts), the definition to which I was referring talks about people we are intimately involved with - ie. we choose to be with them, and that that results in a large positive growth experience (although it's possible that there is a lot of conflict/turmoil/negative stuff first - in fact that's probably likely since we learn the most through great suffering).

You have every right to choose your definition, or not believe in the term at all.


Hey you, you've been promoted to Ambassador, do I have to call you Sir now? Smiling (click to insert in post)
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T2H
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« Reply #102 on: July 04, 2010, 07:48:21 AM »

Hey you, you've been promoted to Ambassador, do I have to call you Sir now? Smiling (click to insert in post)

Haha, no.  But a curtsey would be nice.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I think I'm supposed to lock this thread because it's over the limit but I haven't taken that class yet! 

Happy July 4th to all the US folks!

 

ps.  Hey what happened to the cool jumping guy?

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innerspirit
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« Reply #103 on: July 04, 2010, 10:15:29 AM »

Oh I think he didn't get the attention he was looking for -- I sure hope he got tired and went home.
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« Reply #104 on: July 04, 2010, 10:25:25 AM »

Oh I think he didn't get the attention he was looking for -- I sure hope he got tired and went home.

LOL.  Either that or he headed over to the NPD forum... .   ;p

Maybe just a lonely guy... .  looking for his soul mate... .

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Manon46
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« Reply #105 on: July 04, 2010, 12:46:28 PM »

He just jumped off, couldn't handle it anymore... still in denail, to much truth out here... poor little guy... so full of himself, and no one wanted him :'(

Glad... he was so dominant Smiling (click to insert in post)

Ok T2H lock it down now... you can do it... I know you can hop hop Smiling (click to insert in post) x
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Paws
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WWW
« Reply #106 on: July 04, 2010, 01:01:22 PM »

I'm having a hard time with this thread.  Apparently the person who has had the BIGGEST impact on one's life is your soul mate?  Or someone teaching you a lesson you must learn?

Well there was one person who had the BIGGEST impact on my life, when I was about 18, and I don't even know his name.  He came at me with a knife one night as I was walking down the street, held it to my throat, dragged me behind some bushes and visciously raped me.  I moved from the East coast to the West coast a month later and tried to put it out of my mind.  As a lesbian, I never even thought about pregnancy, until my breasts began to leak milk.  Then came the late stage abortion.

Perhaps this man is my soul mate?

I think I am going to throw up.

Cin,

I am sorry for what you went through.   x 

My understanding of that definition of soul mate is that it is someone who you have some type of relationship with, and that person impacts you in such a way that you experience tremendous positive growth and your life is forever changed. 

I was raped also (at 19), and I would never consider my rapist one of my soul mates.  I am not sure how long ago for you it was that that happened, but it has been 9 years for me and I can say that although you never fully get over it, I have found that the pain hurts less in time.   x  I am very sorry that happened to you.

I'm sorry this thread was painful... .I don't think anyone here would consider a rapist to be a soul mate, even in the alternative definition of the world.

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Colombian Chick
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« Reply #107 on: July 04, 2010, 01:28:44 PM »

I'm having a hard time with this thread.  Apparently the person who has had the BIGGEST impact on one's life is your soul mate?  Or someone teaching you a lesson you must learn?

Well there was one person who had the BIGGEST impact on my life, when I was about 18, and I don't even know his name.  He came at me with a knife one night as I was walking down the street, held it to my throat, dragged me behind some bushes and visciously raped me.  I moved from the East coast to the West coast a month later and tried to put it out of my mind.  As a lesbian, I never even thought about pregnancy, until my breasts began to leak milk.  Then came the late stage abortion.

Perhaps this man is my soul mate?

I think I am going to throw up.

  x

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