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Author Topic: They really were our soul mate(s)  (Read 8417 times)
ozzanoid24
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« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2010, 06:03:59 PM »

i have learned that the world is cruel, people are in constant pain, and some people actually don't have a soul/conscience.  hmmm.  fabulous.

SMP,

Yeah... .I learned that lesson the hard way too!

T2H,

I think you give our exes WAY too much credit. I think I could have learned the same lesson WITHOUT all the drama, pain, bull___, etc. if I would have listened to my mom about girls like my exBPDgf. I never asked for the lesson and it sure wasn't worth the price I paid. The term "soul mate" really just creeps me out. I'll never forget the gut wrenching feeling I got when my exBPDgf first used it. I don't think she was put on this planet to teach me or anyone else anything. How can she possibly have so many "soul mates" that she is now the master of teaching every non what to avoid in real relationships? What if she is nothing more than a miserable, angry, bitter, abusive alcoholic who wants nothing more than to drag anyone close to her down with her? What's the lesson in that other than the obvious - "don't get emotionally involved in girls who are miserable, angry, bitter, abusive alcoholics"?

Just my humble opinion... .

-NHBB

Good point. I agree that we give them too much credit. ITS BECAUSE THEY have never TAKEN ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY OF THEIR ACTIONS! EVER!
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« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2010, 06:14:12 PM »



Thanks for your input I.S.  And to everyone else who contributed.

Have a good sleep TS.

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« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2010, 06:42:45 PM »

What he tought me was that my life was worth fighting for, that I had no bounderies,that I had so much strength when I needed it, that what I have to say matters.

When put down so deep, be so humiliated, he was the one that through his abuse, showed me that the real power is within, strength I never new I had, perseverance I never new I had, before him I felt like nothing, I was never satisfied, moody,insecure,doubtfull,questioning everything I did, everything I was.

Afraid to speak, he gave me a voice,although it was a hard, bitter,cruel way to learn,no one was ever able to learn me that.

Everything I did, before him had no value for me, no matter what people said,that it was good what I did, that I should be proud of what I did.

I know now, by surving this, I can do everything, what I thought was my soulmate became a teacher for me, should I give him credit for that?

I realy don't know, maybe not because his intention was not to learn me, his intention was much more to destroy me, I credit myself for learning, and growing, he gave me the book, and I read it.

Without him I would never had had the book, without my own effort I would never had read it.

On other levels, I would say he was or is my soulmate, I realy could feel what he felt, and I believe it was the other way around also, I guess more like simular souls,shared same losses,same childhood, more a bond in misery we shared, recognized parts in eachother, emneshed and desperate, was more the feeling, I learned a lot and I wish I could have learned him the same,but I guess he was more damaged and afraid than I was, and he had to move on... trying to find this connection again with some one else... .

WW2 Nazi/Jews well... I think that is another discussion, and we did learn from that one, so did my parents x
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« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2010, 07:09:23 PM »

It's seems like you're arguing against my definition using part of your own.  Maybe I could use a different phrase so we're not getting confused (but my point was that some people use it differently than what most are used to).  I'm not starting with the premise that 'soul mates' are something all high, mighty, elevated, spiritually developed, angelic, pure, the end-all-be-all, etc, etc.  I'm saying that some people use the term in a different way - that it's two souls who came together where that interaction caused at least one of them to move to a new level of awareness.  I'm not the one who came up with this (and can barely explain it apparently).

I'm a bit confused also that you would not believe in, nor agree to, any definition of soul mates but get so worked up that I would dare to even use that term to apply it to a pwBPD.  

Hi,

I think you meant this to someone else, but I can tell you what I think about it since I tend to agree with him on what he's said in this topic. 

Personally, I don't believe in a soul, so technically I can't offer you any definition for soul mate other than perhaps the concept of 2 people coming together that bring positive things to each other.  I still think that phrase has many mystical, otherworldly connotations attached to it, that are hard to remove.  Logically, I don't believe in god and don't believe in souls, but there is still something repulsive and disgusting to me about calling  someone with BPD that hurt me my soul mate.  Especially the pwBPD that I worked with, since we weren't in a chosen relationship and she really scrambled and fried my brains with her behavior.  I can't really say that someone that pushed me toward an emotional breakdown of sorts is someone who caused me to move to a higher or new level of awareness.  Maybe I'll change my mind on it when I've fully recovered from it all.

I know I don't look back at my ex-sociopath or ex-NPD as having helped me reach into anything positive, but I don't feel hatred toward them anymore either.  They did help me be more aware of avoiding their types in the future.  The sociopath I dated when I was 18 and I don't believe I've ever encountered 1 again, so that's good. 

I do think I get what you're saying with the definition you gave.  It's an interesting way to look at it differently.  It still makes me annoyed and icky, but maybe there is something about where I am at, that I refuse to give any credit to people who are abusive and sick and whose sickness spilled over into my life.  Do you see why it could be insulting and annoying to some people, for them to try and conceptualize an abuser as a soul mate by any definition, even by giving them credit for bringing about your change? 
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« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2010, 07:28:34 PM »

Thanks for your post Lizzie.  I'd basically *just* finished sorting through it all to understand what was going on - and you explained/articulated it well.  At one point earlier on I was actually thinking... . it seems that some are "repulsed and disgusted" by the idea - but I wasn't clear why.  We all are at different stages of healing, on different parts of our own path, and some things just rub us the wrong way.

So for those who took offense or who were upset by the topic and/or my posts - I apologize.

x

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« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2010, 09:48:41 PM »

After reading this discussion on the website, I stopped in a fast-food restaurant this evening for a salad, and they had an oldies radio station on as Musak.  Pretty surreal to hear "I never knew love before, then came you."  Got me thinking about hearing such songs of idealization --

as a kid,

while in a relationship

and/or pining to be in one.

The cultural messages are so strong, so hyped up.  Just after the breakup, some songs were so painful to hear, for the supposed meaning they had for X and me.  The few weeks before Valentines Day I thought I would overload on red and pink at the drugstore.  Strange mix of grief, numbness and diabetic sugar-shock.

But my heart and head feel in a different place now.

Similar feelings out there?
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« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2010, 10:29:31 PM »

After reading this discussion on the website, I stopped in a fast-food restaurant this evening for a salad, and they had an oldies radio station on as Musak.  Pretty surreal to hear "I never knew love before, then came you."   Got me thinking about hearing such songs of idealization --

as a kid,

while in a relationship

and/or pining to be in one.

The cultural messages are so strong, so hyped up.  Just after the breakup, some songs were so painful to hear, for the supposed meaning they had for X and me.  The few weeks before Valentines Day I thought I would overload on red and pink at the drugstore.  Strange mix of grief, numbness and diabetic sugar-shock.

But my heart and head feel in a different place now.

Similar feelings out there?

well IS I for one i will never listen to a love song in the same way i used too ever again! i find myself changing the station if she is beeing soo(or he)co-dependant... .or BPD or NPD... .you get the point... Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)... .my vision of love has changed so dramaticly its unreal... Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2010, 11:36:31 PM »

Sorry - that was directed towards NHBB.

What I don't understand are the examples about holocaust, rape, drugs/alcohol to refute the definition to which I was referring. Seems a bit extreme - as well as ignoring some of what I'm saying (like 'intimate', 'someone', etc).

I'm just not sure why you're arguing against it so strongly. If I had instead said that our ex's had God inside them (which some people believe everyone does), would you give examples why that doesn't make sense? 

T2H,

You think that's a bit extreme? Hmmmm... .maybe try getting arrested because your "soul mate" decides to lie to the police and make crap up? Welcome to my experience with BPD! Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

Quote from: turtlesoup


No NHBB I am subscribing wholeheartedly to the school she deserves no praise or label of soulmate nor teacher. I think she's a total *****!

I;m saying that while we were together in the early days I wondered if i'd found my soulmate because being with her, sexually only, was so easy and the sex was great, she would declare and so did I.

However, like other posters, as soon as the ___ hit the fan she also declared this was not great and that I was not great. The hardest part of letting go of her was letting go of this sense of otherness that I had with her sexually.

I think we may have dated the same BPD. I had the same feelings too - which is one of the reasons why I am so against the term "soul mate" in the first place.

Quote from: Manon46
What he tought me was that my life was worth fighting for, that I had no bounderies,that I had so much strength when I needed it, that what I have to say matters.

When put down so deep, be so humiliated, he was the one that through his abuse, showed me that the real power is within, strength I never new I had, perseverance I never new I had, before him I felt like nothing, I was never satisfied, moody,insecure,doubtfull,questioning everything I did, everything I was.

Afraid to speak, he gave me a voice,although it was a hard, bitter,cruel way to learn,no one was ever able to learn me that.

Everything I did, before him had no value for me, no matter what people said,that it was good what I did, that I should be proud of what I did.

I know now, by surving this, I can do everything, what I thought was my soulmate became a teacher for me, should I give him credit for that?

I realy don't know, maybe not because his intention was not to learn me, his intention was much more to destroy me, I credit myself for learning, and growing, he gave me the book, and I read it.

Manon,

This is one of my biggest issue I have with your view of a soul mate. I disagree with what you wrote - your exBPD did not "teach" you anything did he? Did he give you any tips for healing, asked about your feelings, any new coping skills, communication skills, etc. etc.? Probably none. I think you really should give yourself a LOT more credit for being smart enough to survive and get well! Why do you feel like your ex did ANYTHING to teach you? Couldn't you just substitute your relationship with ANY other random abusive BPD and you would have still figured out how to be well? What happened if you met a different abusive guy 2 years earlier - would he have taught you some specific life lesson that you really figured out on your own (or with the help of a T)? Was there really ANY specific lesson that ONLY your exBPDso taught you or was it really YOU that figured out how to get out of a very unpleasant situation that could have been caused by literally ANY abusive person that you could have had a relationship with?

What if your exBPDso drove you to the middle of a desert in summer with no food, water, gps, transportation and left you there on your own - just cut you out of his life and drove away - a life impacting event. You found the strength to find your way back to the road, get help, & get water, food, etc. Would you give your exBPDso credit for "helping" you find your strength? Would you give your exBPDso credit for "teaching" you? If so, what skills has he taught you about getting out of the situation - how to use the sun to determine direction, how to get water from a cactus, how to hunt for food, etc? He wasn't there - he did none of that. Couldn't you really substitute ANY person that could drive you to the desert - in other words, there's nothing really specific or even special about your ex other than he just happened to be the one to cause you really big issues? Apply the same analogy to your exBPDso - what skills has he taught you vs. what did you learn on your own after he was gone? As I tried to communicate numerous times on this thread, we are the ones who deserve the credit, as well as others who may have helped us (including many wise people on this board who have been down the road we had to travel). Believe it or not, I'm a very positive person. I have a LOT of really good things going on in my life. I always try to view the cup as half full. But I still don't get how someone can try to spin their experience with their exBPD as an encounter with their soul mate and give them credit for teaching them stuff when the reality is that they were probably cut out of their life and their ex had little if any to do with the real growth - the healing process. If I got cut by my exBPDgf, and I go to the hospital and a dr. stitches me up, tends to my wounds, shows me how to put anti-infection ointment on, shows me how to change the bandages, shows me how to keep it clean, helps me heal... .would I then say that my exBPDgf taught me about myself just because she caused the damage in the first place? No - it's the dr. who's doing the teaching AFTER she's already gone on.

I may have felt a connection to my exBPDgf years ago before she really got abusive and out of control and before I realized who she truly is. She taught me nothing - I learned everything on my own AFTER she cut me out of her life. I don't view us as two kindred souls who met and our lives changed forever. Not at all. I see her for who she really is: a selfish, miserable, abusive, alcoholic with a severe brain disorder and our meeting was by chance - not some comic soul mate. I made a huge mistake, suffered the consequences, and worked hard to distance myself from her and my past mistake. That's really it.

It's late... .I've rambled on this subject probably way to long. It the end, it's just a term... .everyone is going to have their own perspective on it. I think by now the nook knows my feelings... .nah, I think I'm still holding back a bit! Maybe I should really state how I feel about that! LMAO. Smiling (click to insert in post) 

-NHBB

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Colombian Chick
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« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2010, 11:44:52 PM »

"Is there a perfect mate out there for me?" or "Will I meet my Soul Mate?" These are interesting questions. The entire reason for most relationships are so that you can work on your self! So with that said, the more you clear up issues for YOURSELF, the more you ARE the ‘right’ person, the more you will ATTRACT the person you are looking for.

A theory about Soul Mates could be that they are souls that have agreed to connect with you on this planet for a purpose. In some cases it is to finish unfinished business, which are usually issues with childhood wounds. And, for some it is to accomplish a particular goal together just like Manon so perfectly described. She was able to reach a level of peace within, even though it was tremendously painful. Some of these relationships are a joy to be in at first and then they turn into pain. They are here for a reason and the quicker we work on ourselves to be able to "get it" the quicker we will be able to transform from bitterness, resentment, and discontent to happy, joyful, and at peace.You can have more than one painful Soul Mate in a lifetime, at least until you "get it".

Relationships are the most challenging and the most rewarding aspects of this life. I agree with T2H the more INTIMATE the relationship the larger opportunity for growth we are given. Relationships are MIRRORS for us to learn more about ourselves. I read that there are three different types of relationship "mirrors".

One is the mirror of who you were. This mirror gives you the opportunity to see how far you have come, the chance to experience the wounds that you have already healed. You will probably think "Not this type of person... .again" But don’t get caught up in this relationship worried about why it is coming back at this time, just thank it, accept it and let it go. Unfortunately letting go for some it is easier said than done.

A second type of relationship is the one that is mirroring where you are now. If an issue or person has an emotional "charge" to it, then you still have work to do! This mirror is the hardest to look at because it reflects the things you have NOT yet finished in yourself. These are the things that we are the most blind to.

The last type of relationship is the one that mirrors your emotional growth. Once you have completely healed and are at peace with yourself and with what you have learned  through each painful and happy experience. You will allow yourself to have a glimpse at who you have become wiser/stronger and at peace through this persons "mirror". In other words, you will ATTRACT an emotionally healthy person.

So look at your various relationships and see which group they fall into. By knowing this you will gain insight into yourself. Self understanding is the entire reason for these mirrors, not to ‘fix’ the BPD, blame them, or blame previous relationships, but to look at yourself.

So, all relationships serve a purpose and should be honored and appreciated for what they have to offer you in your personal growth. Thank the person and the experiences for all that you have had the opportunity to learn and clear. Know that ALL relationships are sacred, because they bring us closer to being at peace with ourselves.
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« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2010, 12:28:56 AM »

Really excellent post, CC.  Thank you for sharing that.


I've actually read many more times that a soul mate is someone who comes to teach us something - some important lesson that we need to learn - and often with such a person, it's quite chaotic and involves a lot of pain.  

the ideal fantasy of our one true soul mate

I've read this thread a few times.  And I've gone back to read T2H's initial post several times.  Aside from my own experience, I think I better understand what T2H is sharing now after some time has passed.

The common definition for the term soul mate is: a person with whom one has a feeling of deep and natural affinity, love, intimacy, sexuality, spirituality, and/or compatibility.  Your one true love.  The ultimate match to you.  This is the ideal fantasy of our one true soul mate, as T2H wrote above.

The uncommon definition for the term soul mate is: a person who unknowingly teaches you an important lesson through an intimate relationship that can at times involve chaos and pain, again as T2H wrote above.

If I throw the definition I'm more familiar with out the window (that'd be the common definition), I would agree that my husband was my soul mate because throughout our relationship, and even after the relationship has ended, I learned valuable lessons from him.  I learned things about myself that I never knew before -- some of those things are good and some are not so good.  I learned what I can be capable of.  I learned what I cannot tolerate.  I learned specific details about myself -- behaviors, traits, personality issues, etc. -- throughout our six years together.  I would not have learned any of these things without the particular dynamic that he lent to the equation.  Meaning, the same things may not have been learned from a different soul, even if that different soul has BPD.


I thought this was an (clears throat) interesting side note:

One story about soulmates, presented by Aristophanes in Plato's Symposium, is that humans originally consisted of four arms, four legs, and a single head made of two faces, but Zeus feared their power and split them all in half, condemning them to spend their lives searching for the other half to complete them.  (Now that makes me cringe!  cue Jerry Maguire music now... .  "You complete me."  blech!)

This is a touchy and sensitive subject and it's hard for us to be objective because so many of us have been subjected to this particular phrase/conversation.  (Lots of jects in there!)  I think it's important for us to remember that we all have valid and oftentimes differing opinions.  And we also have different feelings about our exes -- some of us are filled with hatred and some of us ambivalence, while some of us are filled with relief and others filled with depression and dread.  Although we have similar stories, we each walked our own path to get here.  Regardless of these differences, we're all in the same NON CAMP together. 
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« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2010, 08:36:44 AM »

One view of verbal abuse is that one person is in a “power over” world and the victim is in a world of “mutuality”--- the victim stays engaged because h/she believes the abuser would care if the abuser just understood differently--- when in fact the abuser just wants to goad into, or keep the the victim in submission.  I think betrayal bonding and verbal abuse dynamics kept me engaged with my x--- it was my failure to understand that her devaluing was a “power over” scapegoating event--- that the door to her heart had closed and she was looking at me through a peep show window--- it was hostile, fearful, and vindictive.  She wanted to mangle my spirit.   And then later I wanted to forget about this--- not appreciating the damage done. That is the insidious part--- like frogs that don’t understand that slowly warming water destined to a boil is very dangerous, the only way I could have found value in our experiences was to be separated and to develop enough esteem stay out of the hot bath,  and to understand how bad this was.  While I have grown tremendously from the pain and suffering I am also damaged.  Will I be stronger then before---- yes, in ways.  But I can’t measure if the damage or my “new world view” leaves me better off.  I think I am beginning to understand and experience a deeper intimacy again in my new relationship.  How scarey it can be--- but so very cool.  I can spot verbal abuse and borderline traits with precision.  Yes, there are mixed blessings in all of this.  When I consider my x as a soul mate it unnerves me--- because I don’t have the confidence yet to love that which falsely represents itself.  I imagine buying vitamins at the store and after taking them for months getting a recall notice because they are tainted with poison.    Why do I have to build such elaborate defenses?  Because when I ask the question like Dorothy in the Wizard of OZ--- “ Are you a good witch, or a bad witch?  The answers in my brain don’t include yet All of the Above .    To love my x now is to cosmically love her--- to love her with thoughtful detachment…but not in a trusting way… not in my revelation to her.  As in to learn to charm a cobra?   I am appropriately convinced she didn’t really care to understand me--- maybe seemingly so, but it was what she did before she went into “power over".  And because of that one missing criteria, she doesn’t make the grade as soul mate.  And I feel freer just writing that.  Thanks.  I guess soul mate means more of an inner circle thing to me.  By the length of my response I guess I needed that... .  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2010, 11:05:42 AM »

I thought this was an (clears throat) interesting side note:

One story about soulmates, presented by Aristophanes in Plato's Symposium, is that humans originally consisted of four arms, four legs, and a single head made of two faces, but Zeus feared their power and split them all in half, condemning them to spend their lives searching for the other half to complete them.

Thanks for this.  The word "condemned" puts an interesting spin on it.  Like the Narcissus myth, isn't it a fable for avoiding the preoccupation rather than making it into an ultimate, righteous quest?  Neither story implies fulfillment.

I imagine buying vitamins at the store and after taking them for months getting a recall notice because they are tainted with poison.    Why do I have to build such elaborate defenses?  Because when I ask the question like Dorothy in the Wizard of OZ--- “ Are you a good witch, or a bad witch?  The answers in my brain don’t include yet All of the Above .  

There's a great lyric by Stephen Sondheim, "Witches can be right, giants can be good."

Considering the ideal of a soulmate in more heady -- philosophical, Jungian -- terms feels helpful at the moment.  And relieves it (at least the concept) of the codependent notion of being incomplete without the perfect match, the need in our minds and hearts to make someone conform to fit the role.

Think in American culture of the number of popular songs, all the messages from the media that drive home the fantasy!  Heck, when I was 4 years old, I got a bride doll.  (Which brings up a whole other issue -- are there groom dolls for little boys?)
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« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2010, 11:40:39 AM »

Excerpt
If I throw the definition I'm more familiar with out the window (that'd be the common definition), I would agree that my husband was my soul mate because throughout our relationship, and even after the relationship has ended, I learned valuable lessons from him.  I learned things about me that I never knew before -- some of those things are good and some are not so good.  I learned what I can be capable of.  I learned what I cannot tolerate.  I learned specific details about myself -- behaviors, traits, personality issues, etc. -- throughout our six years together.  I would not have learned any of these things without the particular dynamic that he lent to the equation.  Meaning, the same things may not have been learned from a different soul, even if that different soul has BPD.

I agree with you 100%, thanks to my exBPD I was able to heal wounds that I never knew I had. I also learned a lot about boundaries, healthy relationships, and communication. Would I have learned this with someone else? Probably, but without the emotional charge behind it I don't think I would had been able to "get it" and moved on into a place of peace with myself and accepting that my struggles/pain had a purpose.

Excerpt
One story about soul mates, presented by Aristophanes in Plato's Symposium, is that humans originally consisted of four arms, four legs, and a single head made of two faces, but Zeus feared their power and split them all in half, condemning them to spend their lives searching for the other half to complete them.  (Now that makes me cringe!  cue Jerry Maguire music now... .  "You complete me."  blech!)

WOW interesting, thank you for sharing. I also read a little something about Zeus “Zeus ordained that only in sorrow and in suffering do we find wisdom's way... .by suffering we shall gain understanding.” Aeschylus, Agamemnon

Excerpt
This is a touchy and sensitive subject and it's hard for us to be objective because so many of us have been subjected to this particular phrase/conversation.  (Lots of jects in there!)  I think it's important for us to remember that we all have valid and oftentimes differing opinions.  And we also have different feelings about our exes -- some of us are filled with hatred and some of us ambivalence, while some of us are filled with relief and others filled with depression and dread.  Although we have similar stories, we each walked our own path to get here.  Regardless of these differences, we're all in the same NON CAMP together. 

I agree with you……... again Smiling (click to insert in post)!  We are all in different phases of healing. So it will be hard for some to understand the message or agree with some of our posts. There are a few that are still going through a lot of emotions and all we can do is hope that one day they can get through it and find peace.

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« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2010, 02:06:20 PM »

Well NHB, nobody said that teachers had to be nice guys...

I could also have said, life tought me a lesson using my exBPD/NPD/ASPD/OCPD  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I am also very very sure, that not every person with a disorder or an abusive person could have tought me this lesson.

He had to be the one, because he was appearently the only one who could touch my soul, and I still do remember very clear how he did that.

I didn't say I credit him for what he tought me, or the way he did that, I am sure he wasn't even aware that he was teaching me something, and it was not his intention to teach me anything but being much less that a doormat.

But if I don't credit him, why should I than blame him, for him being what he is, or what he became.

No all I learned was after he left. What I learned while he was here, is the reason he left.

I brought up two children mostly by myself, and during their youth they had to learn a lot of things the hard way.

Why? Because they would'nt listen, after three or four warnings, still don't listen, it's probably going to hurt one way or the other.

Falling of bikes, burning on candles, fingers between doors, these are things you have no control over.

And being hurt forces you to change behaviors, forces you to look different, why? Because it hurts, and nobody likes that.

So by hurting me he forces me to change myself to make sure I wasn't going to be hurt again.

He tought me valueable things, he tought me I had to change in order to learn about bounderies, he forced me to look within, and why I was taking this abuse, he showed me after he left how addicted I was.

He tought me by his behavior, that he was a person, I would never want to be.

He also tought me how to enjoy things, and how nice it was to do things together.

I think we are all teachers and all students at the same time. Ofcourse sometimes I feel overwhelmed by extreme hate, only recently, I was knocked out by so much hate, which came over me, thinking back on what he did, the damage he has done, and sometimes I still get overwhelmed by an extreme feeling of missing, and lonelyness without him.

And ofcourse it was by my own effort and survinginstincts I got out of it. Without him, I would not have been where I am now.

Before him I was married 15 years to a kind man, he never was able to touch my soul, or learn me any lesson.

But to move on much healthier as I was, I learned to hate the sin, but not the sinner.

As you see your ex, in your reality, I see my ex in my reality, I see a very damaged and hurt person, someone who is not able to enjoy the meaning of life, someone who is not able to love his children and to be loved back.

I see a man who is so extremely scared of everything that he always has to be on guard, I see a man who is relieved when he finally can stop this life. I see a man who can never rest because he than is haunted by the ghosts of his past.

I see a man who so much hates himself, that in order to not feel that, he has to hate everybody around him.

And I see a man, who will never see that, who will never see how he destroys himself, and I do feel so sorry for him.

Sorry that he is going to be hurt over and over again, because he will not learn, no matter how many teachers he has.

He hurts him self more than anyone could ever do. Sometimes I could see the fear in his eyes,followed by pure hate.

I felt his emotions, and I almost drowned in it.

Reality is that I do love him, but not trust him. Reality shows how evil he can be, how destructive he can be and how wonderful he can be.

Whether the glass is half full or half empty, has imo nothing to do with being positive or negative.

Reality is that when it's empty its emtpy, and when its full is full, it doesn't become more or less by the way you look at it.

Seeing it half full is positive only if you see it as negative if it is empty. When it doesn't matter to you i.e indifference you see reality.

Being positive I see this wonderfull man I had the best time with I ever had, being negative I see a man who almost destroyed me.

Reality is, a damaged man, who is dangerous to me,I 'don't have to hate him, and I don't have to love him.

He is evil or he is God, good or bad, right or wrong, sick or sane, for me he is some one I have to avoid. That doesn/t make him anything else but not good for me. x

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« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2010, 05:52:36 PM »

Well NHB, nobody said that teachers had to be nice guys...

I could also have said, life tought me a lesson using my exBPD/NPD/ASPD/OCPD  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I am also very very sure, that not every person with a disorder or an abusive person could have tought me this lesson.

He had to be the one, because he was appearently the only one who could touch my soul, and I still do remember very clear how he did that.

I didn't say I credit him for what he tought me, or the way he did that, I am sure he wasn't even aware that he was teaching me something, and it was not his intention to teach me anything but being much less that a doormat.

But if I don't credit him, why should I than blame him, for him being what he is, or what he became.

No all I learned was after he left. What I learned while he was here, is the reason he left.

I brought up two children mostly by myself, and during their youth they had to learn a lot of things the hard way.

Why? Because they would'nt listen, after three or four warnings, still don't listen, it's probably going to hurt one way or the other.

Falling of bikes, burning on candles, fingers between doors, these are things you have no control over.

And being hurt forces you to change behaviors, forces you to look different, why? Because it hurts, and nobody likes that.

So by hurting me he forces me to change myself to make sure I wasn't going to be hurt again.

He tought me valueable things, he tought me I had to change in order to learn about bounderies, he forced me to look within, and why I was taking this abuse, he showed me after he left how addicted I was.

He tought me by his behavior, that he was a person, I would never want to be.

He also tought me how to enjoy things, and how nice it was to do things together.

I think we are all teachers and all students at the same time. Ofcourse sometimes I feel overwhelmed by extreme hate, only recently, I was knocked out by so much hate, which came over me, thinking back on what he did, the damage he has done, and sometimes I still get overwhelmed by an extreme feeling of missing, and lonelyness without him.

And ofcourse it was by my own effort and survinginstincts I got out of it. Without him, I would not have been where I am now.

Before him I was married 15 years to a kind man, he never was able to touch my soul, or learn me any lesson.

But to move on much healthier as I was, I learned to hate the sin, but not the sinner.

As you see your ex, in your reality, I see my ex in my reality, I see a very damaged and hurt person, someone who is not able to enjoy the meaning of life, someone who is not able to love his children and to be loved back.

I see a man who is so extremely scared of everything that he always has to be on guard, I see a man who is relieved when he finally can stop this life. I see a man who can never rest because he than is haunted by the ghosts of his past.

I see a man who so much hates himself, that in order to not feel that, he has to hate everybody around him.

And I see a man, who will never see that, who will never see how he destroys himself, and I do feel so sorry for him.

Sorry that he is going to be hurt over and over again, because he will not learn, no matter how many teachers he has.

He hurts him self more than anyone could ever do. Sometimes I could see the fear in his eyes,followed by pure hate.

I felt his emotions, and I almost drowned in it.

Reality is that I do love him, but not trust him. Reality shows how evil he can be, how destructive he can be and how wonderful he can be.

Whether the glass is half full or half empty, has imo nothing to do with being positive or negative.

Reality is that when it's empty its emtpy, and when its full is full, it doesn't become more or less by the way you look at it.

Seeing it half full is positive only if you see it as negative if it is empty. When it doesn't matter to you i.e indifference you see reality.

Being positive I see this wonderfull man I had the best time with I ever had, being negative I see a man who almost destroyed me.

Reality is, a damaged man, who is dangerous to me,I 'don't have to hate him, and I don't have to love him.

He is evil or he is God, good or bad, right or wrong, sick or sane, for me he is some one I have to avoid. That doesn/t make him anything else but not good for me. x

Amen!
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« Reply #75 on: June 30, 2010, 08:51:33 PM »

Well NHB, nobody said that teachers had to be nice guys...

I didn't say I credit him for what he tought me, or the way he did that, I am sure he wasn't even aware that he was teaching me something, and it was not his intention to teach me anything but being much less that a doormat.

And being hurt forces you to change behaviors, forces you to look different, why? Because it hurts, and nobody likes that.

So by hurting me he forces me to change myself to make sure I wasn't going to be hurt again.

He tought me valueable things, he tought me I had to change in order to learn about bounderies, he forced me to look within, and why I was taking this abuse, he showed me after he left how addicted I was.

He tought me by his behavior, that he was a person, I would never want to be.

He also tought me how to enjoy things, and how nice it was to do things together.

I think we are all teachers and all students at the same time.

Manon,

As a single/divorced parent of two kids, congrats on raising your kids. It's not easy. I can't even imagine how difficult it would be if my ex-wife (non) had BPD. Ugh!

Anyway - I have had teachers that were bad guys... .yet they were good teachers. That's not my issue. I would agree that you don't have to be a "nice guy" to be a teacher.

What I'm struggling with is how can anyone say that their exBPDso is any kind of a teacher (good or bad) if they aren't physically present in their life and they cut off all communication? How can you teach someone anything if you don't communicate? Even if they were a wonderful person, wouldn't they need to be in communication with us in order to teach us a lesson?

Being hurt does sometimes make us more aware of our situation. Many times we do figure out that we don't like our environment and change. Some people do make the change, some don't. And some go back and forth for a while. I think the reality is that we learn our lessons on our own, sometimes with the help of others that aren't the BPD. I don't think the decisions we make are affected by our BPD "teaching" us something. i think it's more the reality that I'm very uncomfortable being near this person because I've felt pain before, I learned what can happen, so I don't want to repeat this painful experience. I don't think your exBPDso forced you how to look within. Wasn't it more that you got yourself in a crappy situation and you figured out that the only real solution to this problem was to look within? Maybe I'm wrong but did your exBPDso state during a session with a T "Manon... .maybe it's time that you look within and make a change in yourself"? If so, then I am wrong and maybe he really was a great teacher - even though still a bad guy. Did your exBPDso tell you "Manon - you are really addicted. Isn't it time that you made a change"? Or did you maybe hit rock bottom after he left and you figured out (on your own or with a T) by looking at yourself, you may have an additive personality?

It seems like many of us have come so far on our journeys, yet I don't get how we can say that our exes "taught" us things when the reality is we learned them on our own. Sure - because of our encounter with them maybe our paths in life changed but weren't we the ones who had to be both student and teacher at the same time learning much as we went along? Did they perhaps alter our course in life? maybe... .but teacher? not really.

-NHBB
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« Reply #76 on: June 30, 2010, 09:49:50 PM »

Great thread you've got going here. 

I just read an excellent book, "Eyes Wide Open", about practicing discernment on the spiritual path but it has many applications to life in general. The author writes of Spiritually Transmitted Diseases (love it!) and how some of these so-called spiritual leaders/teachers are simply full of themselves and masters of pulling the wool over their followers eyes. Not so very different from BPDs, eh?

A common acquaintance w/my exuBPDf mentioned to me a few weeks back that the BPD is back on the dating boards, with the same profile he had 10 years ago, still looking for his "soul mate" on the web. 

I'm beginning to think it ought to be mandatory for dating sites to contain a direct link to this one!
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« Reply #77 on: June 30, 2010, 09:51:49 PM »

NHBB,

IMO, soul mate does not necessarily mean 'teacher'.

Second, there are lots of things that teach you stuff without them intentionally telling you exactly what to do.  Aren't the best teachers in school the ones who motivate and inspire?  Not just stating exactly what you're doing or not doing.

Third, if you prefer, how about initiator/catalyst or something along those lines instead.

If they were just crappy abusive drunks all the time, none of us would have got close enough and stayed as long as we did.  In some of our cases, those people bonded with our soul, on the parts where we had weaknesses - and in parting, in a way they showed us what we still needed to work on.

Would you get involved with someone like your ex again?  No?  Then you learned something - whether she taught you or not, she was involved, and had some contribution to that.  But as you said, maybe not a soul mate for you.  My ex was one - I have been one to a previous ex (of course each of those in much different ways).  But just like the ideal fantasy version... . you may live your life without ever meeting one.  Well especially if you don't believe in the term.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #78 on: June 30, 2010, 09:53:19 PM »

NHBB x

It's so funny that you wrote:

Excerpt
exBPDso state during a session with a T "Manon... .maybe it's time that you look within and make a change in yourself"?"

... .Because my exBPDbf often told me that I needed to look at myself (in our couples counseling and outside of it- our lives were a 24/7 counseling session ;p ), and also look at this and this and this and this (you know the drill) all the things wrong with me.  I think part of their 'sneakyness' (is that a word?) is that they take small (or large) snippits (word?) of truth and blow them out of proportion.  I was left wondering if I was a horrible person. 

If it wasn't for someone that I felt I cared about so much (and needed, due to all that codependence), I don't think I would have changed as much as fast, and become so committed to continual change.  I have had miserable people in my life before, but it took someone that severe that I felt truly intimate with, to initiate the changes I made in my life.  I have been to counseling before, and they did help me see 'things'.  But in no way did my life change for the better to the extent it did during and after my BPD experience.  But, in reality I don't think any teacher or counselor or mentor actually 'teaches' me.  I learn myself.  They bring things to my life and I use them, or not.

I think we are all seeing the same things, just interpreting them in different ways based on our experience and philosophies, and using different terms to describe the experience. 

Oh, and I never use the term soulmate in the traditional way because I always saw it in the sense of there was only one person in the world 'for' you (whatever that meant).  I mean, what if he was in China?  Crap!

Take care,

Foiles

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« Reply #79 on: June 30, 2010, 09:56:04 PM »

Oh and I'm not from China.
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« Reply #80 on: June 30, 2010, 09:58:02 PM »

Oh and I'm not from China.

This cracked me up!  I was going to write, before you posted this, "They have these things called airplanes and you could go to China!  If you're scared of flying, I bet there's a reason that phrase 'a slow boat to China' was so popular once upon a time!"  Silly.
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« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2010, 10:03:14 PM »

But how would I even know he was there?  Oh, yeah, eharmony.
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« Reply #82 on: June 30, 2010, 10:06:13 PM »

Haha.  Hasn't someone come up with a 'soul mate finder' website yet?

Just our luck that a pwBPD would make it so it always pointed to him/her... .

ps.  Ni hao foiles !

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« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2010, 10:10:02 PM »

Second, there are lots of things that teach you stuff without them intentionally telling you exactly what to do.  Aren't the best teachers in school the ones who motivate and inspire?  Not just stating exactly what you're doing or not doing.

Third, if you prefer, how about initiator/catalyst or something along those lines instead.

Then, by the definition that you gave earlier, wouldn't anyone you had a significant relationship with, that caused you to change, be a soul mate? That could be anyone that I've been friends with, related to, etc.  I don't see what makes any person not a soul mate then, under that definition.  It could include the person that rear ended me years ago b/c I learned a lot from that situation.  I don't even know her, but she changed the way I handle car insurance, any future car accidents.  Or am I not understanding correctly, does it have to be a person you were intimate with?

In some of our cases, those people bonded with our soul, on the parts where we had weaknesses

This, to me sounds more like the traditional soul mate definition, rather than the alternate you provided.  


Another thing, what if the change that comes about in you is negative.  Is the other person still a "soul mate"?  If they help push you to say financial ruin, bitterness, mistrust, selfishness.  Say the person pushes the other person so far that they do things they never had like physical violence or road raging?  I'm just curious if this would still fall under the definition here.   
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« Reply #84 on: June 30, 2010, 10:18:50 PM »

But how would I even know he was there?  Oh, yeah, eharmony.

Maybe I should go on my journey to China to find my soul mate. I'm sure she is frustrated looking for me on eHarmony.

All of you here are my real true soul mates for pointing me on my one true destiny to find my endearing soul mate. I love you all. I must now go and book my travel to Beijing... .or Shanghai? I suppose I should learn Mandarin or Cantonese... .at least enough to say some cute little catch phrases like "hey baby - can I buy you some lo mein"? Or "what's your sign baby - pig or horse"? or my favorite "You're my soul mate... .I've waited my whole life for you"! OMG - maybe I did learn something from my exBPDgf? Smiling (click to insert in post)

-NHBB
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« Reply #85 on: June 30, 2010, 10:28:45 PM »

NHBB,

Second, there are lots of things that teach you stuff without them intentionally telling you exactly what to do.  Aren't the best teachers in school the ones who motivate and inspire?  Not just stating exactly what you're doing or not doing.

Yes but while those best teachers never gave me the answers, they were present, at school, and lead me to where I needed to be - not left me in the dark.

Quote from: T2H


Third, if you prefer, how about initiator/catalyst or something along those lines instead.

If they were just crappy abusive drunks all the time, none of us would have got close enough and stayed as long as we did.  In some of our cases, those people bonded with our soul, on the parts where we had weaknesses - and in parting, in a way they showed us what we still needed to work on.

Would you get involved with someone like your ex again?  No?  Then you learned something - whether she taught you or not, she was involved, and had some contribution to that.  But as you said, maybe not a soul mate for you.  My ex was one - I have been one to a previous ex (of course each of those in much different ways).  But just like the ideal fantasy version... . you may live your life without ever meeting one.  Well especially if you don't believe in the term.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Yes - no doubt my exBPDgf was involved and did contribute a bit maybe to alter my path. And yes, she wasn't just a crappy abusive drunk all the time. She was rather very pleasant some of the time... .like the middle of the night when she was sound asleep and couldn't rage on me! LOL. In the end I don't think she bonded with my soul. I think she merely told me crap that she thought I wanted to hear in order to manipulate me. She told me many times that she really did mean all the bullcaca she spewed during the white knight courting phase. I think I bonded much more with my ex-wife (non) since we had many more good times and shared many other experiences. But like you say, I don't believe in that term anyway! Smiling (click to insert in post)

-NHBB

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« Reply #86 on: June 30, 2010, 11:15:06 PM »

Lizzie... .No. Yes. Maybe. Up to you. Smiling (click to insert in post)

NHBB... .if you want, I can teach (!) you how to say "I think you're cute" in Chinese. And just in case you get lost on the way: "I'm a crazy person" in Japanese.

Now how do you say "lock it down" in non-ese?

(is that better or worse than dis-ease?)

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« Reply #87 on: June 30, 2010, 11:38:04 PM »

Excerpt
Or am I not understanding correctly, does it have to be a person you were intimate with?

? I think that has been posted several times through the thread, did you miss it?

Excerpt
Yes but while those best teachers never gave me the answers, they were present, at school, and lead me to where I needed to be - not left me in the dark.

I usually skip reading your posts since you stated since the beginning that you don't believe in the term. So to me there is no point in reading them. What I noticed on the beginning of one of your posts  is that you state things literally, when everyone here is using it as similes, so obviously we are not seeing things in the same way. Like it was posted earlier, we are all in different phases and that's OK.

What confuses me, is the fact that you don't believe in term but continue posting trying to prove your point that the use of the term is wrong or even dumb. I think everyone here "gets" that you don't believe in it, we've accepted it, and moved on. But I don't think you "get" that we are not debating or changing our views.
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« Reply #88 on: July 01, 2010, 12:14:39 AM »

Lizzie... .No. Yes. Maybe. Up to you. Smiling (click to insert in post)

Maybe they are my soul mates from the dark side  Smiling (click to insert in post)   I kind of like that.  errr, Not that I like it, but that is more understandable to me.
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« Reply #89 on: July 01, 2010, 02:13:54 PM »



Dispatched by Lord Vader... .

;p  

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