Emotional Incest

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

This is such a hard topic for me to discuss.  1. Because I see it is being done to my d16 and it may be starting to happen to my d12 and d10. 2. Because I was a victim myself and I am desperately trying to teach my daughters, very carefully without talking badly about their dad, what boundaries are... .what they should talk about and what they shouldn't with each of us.  It typically ends up in an argument (sort of) with d16. 

My xBPDh was a victim of sexual abuse as a child.  His mother had an affair.  I also believe he and I both are adult children of alcoholics, or rather, the same outcome. 

My mom lost her daughter/my sister when I was in 4th grade.  My mom was in her early '30s and understandably was devistated.  But, even before then... .really... .I was her world.  She would tell me so.  She wouldn't have been able to live if it weren't for me and I was the only rason she didn't commit suicide.  I can't imagine the unspeakable pain and suffering she must have gone through.  Needless to say, I had lots of anger about a lot of things.  My being "a chosen child", her making what I thought were bad choices (men, drinking, lots of different jobs) and I never understood why she stayed in physically abusive relationships... .lots of "icky stuff"! 

Wow... .I swore I would never put up with such abuse.  Fast forward, I was married to an emotionally abusive man for 17 years... .He had his own demons I had no idea about.  Meanwhile, I trusted and shared my entire life story with him when we met... .I was 18.  Fastforward to now... .everything I ever shared with him has been turned around on me or used against me.  He knows by saying 'you are just like your mom' is the most hurtful thing he can say to me.  I'm actually proud my mom is still with us and has apologized and we've forgiven.  My xBPDh, however, keeps dragging it up with my d16.  how i'm like my mom... .

My question is -- with your xpbd spouses, how would you approach them about emotional incest to try and open their eyes?  woul dyou even try?  Is that the co-dependednt part of my I'm trying to break... .trying to "fix" him?  My   I found out this week my d10 is still sleeping in the same bed with him. when I picked them up from his house las week, he was carrying her around on his back skipping around... .this was new overt "see how close i am" behavior... .I think a lot of this is stemming from the dwi he got a few weeks ago.  his need to be "better than me".  why am I having such a hard time with my confidence?  i hate this feeling!  I think it's my gut telling me he's trying to pull them away from me and it's just so hard for me to believe someone could be SO hurtful and spiteful.  I'm not hugely religions... .but i am very spiritual... .it breaks my heart all over aagain i guess... .makes me feel like such a failure to my girls.

ugh... .guess i'm not completely back on the wagon so to speak.

I read about emotional incest a lot so that i can make sure my actions aren't enmeshing them.  I've thought about buying the book for him "when your parentls love rules your life" just so I know I tried to inform him. 

feeling confused about what to do... .

what have ya'll done?

best... .  ?

[confusedcontinum]

This is such a hard topic for me to discuss.  1. Because I see it is being done to my d16 and it may be starting to happen to my d12 and d10. 2. Because I was a victim myself and I am desperately trying to teach my daughters, very carefully without talking badly about their dad, what boundaries are... .what they should talk about and what they shouldn't with each of us.  It typically ends up in an argument (sort of) with d16. 

My xBPDh was a victim of sexual abuse as a child.  His mother had an affair.  I also believe he and I both are adult children of alcoholics, or rather, the same outcome. 

My mom lost her daughter/my sister when I was in 4th grade.  My mom was in her early '30s and understandably was devistated.  But, even before then... .really... .I was her world.  She would tell me so.  She wouldn't have been able to live if it weren't for me and I was the only rason she didn't commit suicide.  I can't imagine the unspeakable pain and suffering she must have gone through.  Needless to say, I had lots of anger about a lot of things.  My being "a chosen child", her making what I thought were bad choices (men, drinking, lots of different jobs) and I never understood why she stayed in physically abusive relationships... .lots of "icky stuff"! 

Wow... .I swore I would never put up with such abuse.  Fast forward, I was married to an emotionally abusive man for 17 years... .He had his own demons I had no idea about.  Meanwhile, I trusted and shared my entire life story with him when we met... .I was 18.  Fastforward to now... .everything I ever shared with him has been turned around on me or used against me.  He knows by saying 'you are just like your mom' is the most hurtful thing he can say to me.  I'm actually proud my mom is still with us and has apologized and we've forgiven.  My xBPDh, however, keeps dragging it up with my d16.  how i'm like my mom... .

My question is -- with your xpbd spouses, how would you approach them about emotional incest to try and open their eyes?  woul dyou even try?  Is that the co-dependednt part of my I'm trying to break... .trying to "fix" him?  My   I found out this week my d10 is still sleeping in the same bed with him. when I picked them up from his house las week, he was carrying her around on his back skipping around... .this was new overt "see how close i am" behavior... .I think a lot of this is stemming from the dwi he got a few weeks ago.  his need to be "better than me".  why am I having such a hard time with my confidence?  i hate this feeling!  I think it's my gut telling me he's trying to pull them away from me and it's just so hard for me to believe someone could be SO hurtful and spiteful.  I'm not hugely religions... .but i am very spiritual... .it breaks my heart all over aagain i guess... .makes me feel like such a failure to my girls.

ugh... .guess i'm not completely back on the wagon so to speak.

I read about emotional incest a lot so that i can make sure my actions aren't enmeshing them.  I've thought about buying the book for him "when your parentls love rules your life" just so I know I tried to inform him. 

feeling confused about what to do... .

what have ya'll done?

best... .  ?

[deeinfl]

Hi! I'm single mom of a S6.  I've been experiencing this with my BPDxh.  We exchange our son at a local Walmart. Usually, xh is on a bench, huddled with him, whispering something in the child's ear.  When my son sees me, he reluctantly comes to me then breaks into a ferocious cry, saying he doesn't want to leave his daddy, in front of all these people, xh walking away smirking.  It's horrible.  It used to take a day or so, but now it takes about an hour to calm him down.

I've gingerly posed many questions to my son asking what his dad tells him.  He never can explain clearly, mostly saying how much his dad loves him or can't stand to be without him--although mommy knows that daddy has gradually methodically self-decreased his visitation time over the years down to a few times a month.

I have no idea what to do about this and all the other things I've been dealing with co-parenting with a BPD person.  I'm new to this forum, so I am sure I'll be learning more and more about my BPDxh as time goes along.

[dutchie]

Hi there and 

Seems like you've got a lot going on, sorry to hear about your troubles. You'll find a lot of helpful info here on this board.

From your post I'm understanding that you're worried mostly about what your ex is telling the kids about you, is that right? And you're wondering what you can do to help them see things in the right perspective? Manipulation is so very hard to deal with  :'(  I know how frustrating it is when the other parent says mean things or bashes you, and how tempting it is to try and make the kids understand this is wrong. I can also understand the desire to set the record straight, I have it myself, ALL THE TIME

But, it's important to focus on your own life and what you can do yourself. You cannot change his ways, but you do have control over your own. Actions speak louder then words. Do your own thing, show them what you are about, it will 'prove' more then what your ex says about you I'm sure. (And I wouldn't try and reason with him, he's probably hoping to engage you so my guess is that it's best not to engage with him. It will probably end up in an argument if you do)

When the kids relay his message that you are exactly like your mum, you could respond with: "I see, well he's entitled to his opinion". And if you want to say more you could discuss what the difference is between an opinion and a fact. Everybody is entitled to an opinion ,and if ex thinks you are like your mum, so be it. Your opinion might be that you are not like your mum.

Clearly your ex pushes your buttons when he says these things, but how much does it affect the kids? If this bothers you more then it does them, then it's time to learn to let it slide off. Easier said then done, but it's the only way. My skids BM says all sorts of bad things about us, all the time. I used to try and defend myself, but now not so much anymore. I might say: "How interesting" or "ok now we've heard the negative things, so what positive things can we talk about?"

Hope this helps, take care x

[dutchie]

And when your ex parades around with kids on his back, proving to you how close they are, just remember you don't need to do anything with that. It's not harming the kids and if he wants to prove that point to you, good for him, let it slide right off! Keep smiling, don't show him it bothers you. It's not a contest, you are their mum and they'll love you, he is their dad and they love him. No need for anybody to 'prove' this.

However for your D to share bed with her dad seems inappropriate, is this a regular thing?

[JustSaying]

Phrases like "emotional incest" are incendiary. This is the kind of accusation that shouldn't be bandied about casually, or at all, unless there's clear cut sexualized behavior.

The angriest I've ever been is when uBPDw accused me of being too close to D12 in some nasty ways. To me it crossed the line so grossly, I'm still not over it more than a month later. And why'd she accuse me of it? Because she's hurt that D gets scared when W yells at her, says nasty things ("You don't love me as much as so-and-so loves her mom", or is inebriated. D naturally gravitates to me then, and I'm damn sure gonna make every effort to protect her from the abuse. But that's parental alienation and unnatural involvement to W, who of course will say "sorry" the next day and then pretend it never happened.

So caution with terms like "incest," because that's about as vile a behavior, or accusation, as there is.

I've gingerly posed many questions to my son asking what his dad tells him.

I wouldn't want W asking D "many questions" about what I say, or ANY, and I try to grant her the same courtesy. Neither parent should be playing games of any sort. It's a shame some do. I think those who come out best in the end are those who provide the steadiest rudder for the child... .the child will see that and appreciate it.

Oh, and I second everything Dutchie writes.

[edit: probably some differences on what "emotional incest" means. I've seen different explanations in just a quick search. Some say it means "sexualized behavior, but not sexual contact." I don't know if that's the accepted view or not. Regardless it's a hot-button term that I'd not heard before, so you got my unvarnished reaction to it. Incest is so extreme that (imo) it shouldn't have any qualifiers!]

[hendo123]

The phrase "emotional incest" is an unfortunate one, mainly because of the sexual connotations, but my undertanding is it has nothing to do with sexual abuse. It is more about inappropriate parent / child boundaries, where the child is encouraged to become very emotionally attached to the parent, outwith what you would normally expect given the child's age and stage of development. For instance, it would be appropriate for a 3 year old to seek cuddles regularly from a paretn, but not for a 12 year old to do the same.

I have seen this happen with my wife and SD's - the youngest (11) regularly sleeps in her mum's bed, and is always seeking cuddles, reassurance and affection from her, even in public. All the children are totally loyal to their mum and will do whatever she says, I think becuase they are aware of 5 previous suicide attempts and to disagree with their mum, even when that is perfectly normal, could lead to a 6th.

The difficulty with this form of emotional abuse is that while it can leave the victims with severe emotional problems, attachment difficulties etc, to try and get social services to intervene is very difficult, as on the surface the bond appears to be secure and there are no clear cut immediate risks.

[DreamGirl]

Just to help on the definition of emotional incest:

What is emotional incest?

Emotional, or covert, incest is an overclose bond between a parent and a child without normal boundaries, but without sexual contact. (Overt incest involves sexual contact.)

Best described to date by Dr. Patricia Love, Dr. Love defines emotional incest as "a style of parenting in which parents turn to their children, not to their partners, for emotional support". To the casual observer, the parents may appear loving and devoted. They may spend a great deal of time with their children and lavish them with praise and material gifts. But in the final analysis, their love is not a nurturing, giving love--it's an unconscious ploy to satisfy their own unmet needs."

The BPD factor: Parents with BPD tend to be emotionally immature, have poor boundaries, and think in black and white terms (child = good; spouse = bad). Non parents, faced with a spouse who through his or her disorder may not be functioning as an equal and satisfying partner, may also turn to a child for support. The resulting family situation is one that is at risk for emotional incest.


What are the characteristics of an emotionally incestuous parent-child bond?

1. The parent is using the child extensively to satisfy needs that are beyond the child's ability and role and that should be satisfied by other adults--intimacy, companionship, romantic stimulation, advice, problem solving, ego fulfillment, and/or emotional release.

2. The parent is ignoring many of the child's needs, e.g., for protection, nurturing, guidance, structure, affection, affirmation, or discipline. Instead of the parent meeting the needs of the child, the child is meeting the needs of the parent.

Many parents and children are close; closeness is often healthy and desirable. The key determinant of whether the parenting role has become invasive is that a healthy parent "takes care of a child's needs [in an age-appropriate way] without making the child feel responsible for his/her needs." Parents often slip into the "invasive" role without any intention to harm their children, but the impact is nonetheless harmful.


What are the effects of a parent's reliance on a child?

According to Dr. Love, "Being a parent's primary source of support is a heavy burden for young children. Forced to suppress their own needs, they struggle to satisfy the needs of the adults. Because of this role reversal, they are rarely given adequate protection, guidance, or discipline, and they are exposed to experiences well beyond their years. In adolescence and adulthood, they are likely to be plagued by one or more of the following difficulties: depression, chronic low-level anxiety, problems with self-esteem and love relationships, overly loose or rigid personal boundaries, some form of sexual dysfunction, eating disorders and drug or alcohol addiction."


What about other family members?

Emotional incest affects all members of a family. Dr. Love provides a "role call":

*The Invasive Parent--is enmeshed with a child in order to meet his/her needs that are not being met in an adult relationship

*The Chosen Child--is enmeshed with the invasive parent; often treated as "all good" and favored, but own needs to develop as an individual, to make mistakes and learn, to receive structure and discipline, etc. are actually neglected. Chosen children can also be treated as scapegoats, used "not just for emotional support but for the release of anger and tension."

*The Left-Out Spouse--spouse of invasive parent, is often shut out of exclusive parent-child bond; may turn to workaholism, alcohol, affairs, or other unhealthy coping mechanisms to deal with an unhappy life at home

*The Left-Out Child(ren)--a non-favored child, may be neglected or receive less of the family's resources; may bond with the left out spouse

*Spouse of the Chosen Child--when the chosen child grows up and marries, his/her spouse may find him/herself engaged in a rather disturbing triangle with the chosen child and invasive parent


Where can I find out more?

Book Review for The Emotional Incest Syndrome, by Dr. Patricia Love

[blackandwhite]

Hi confused continuum,

  That does sound very hurtful, and (as your name suggests), confusing. It's really hard to know how to parent under these circumstances. I'm going to put some thought into getting you some ideas from various sources and will post again.

For everyone's reference, I've put together a poll on the topic of emotional incest in families at POLL: Have you experienced emotional incest in your family?

I agree the term is unfortunate, as it understandably causes a strong reaction and may be misleading. The underlying phenomenon (parenting in a way that meets the parent's needs, while neglecting the child's, even if the child is sometimes the focus of a lot of attention), however, is one that's really good to recognize because of the impact on kids and indeed the whole family.

x

B&W

Cross posted with Dream Girl.

[hendo123]

Is it common for parents with BPD to switch between roles? I ask because my ex, with my youngest SD (11) in particular, used to baby her, give her cuddles in public and at inappropriate times, allow her to sleep in her bed, but then would turn and be very critical of her for displaying the "babyish" behaviour that she had encouraged. She would also be very impulsive and change from being very overly emotional with them to being very rejecting.

The best (worst) example was one night when the girls had been with their dad. They came in, all got their pj's on and were in bed with their mum (I was downstairs watching tv). I then heard shouting, my youngest SD had told how she had been given an ice cream she didnt like by her dad's g/f and had been sick. Cue texts back and forwards between their mum and dad, which culminated in their mum saying she "was fed up always looking after them, its his turn now", demanded they got dressed  and packed a bag, and dropped them on his doorstep at 11.30 pm. I tried to talk her out of it but she wasnt listening. Their dad subsequently phoned me and I went to get them, even though my wife threatened me with divorce if i did. Her behaviour changed in an instant, from apparently warm and loving to cold and cruel within seconds, as if something had triggered her. Anyone else experienced this?

[JustSaying]

My experience is that moods (feelings?) can turn in an instant, totally catching off guard anyone who isn't wired in that fashion. What causes them to turn? In W's case, it seems to relate to whether the current happenings trigger her self-esteem issues--are people paying enough attention to her, or too much, or not the right kind, or does she perceive a slight, or disrespect, etc. It's all about her and how what's happening can be seen as a compliment or insult.

Example I've wanted to get off my chest from a few days ago. I picked up D12 from a dance. Everything's calm and fine. D describes dance, etc. I offer that the DJ was super loud, really loud, and that reminded me of why W and I don't have the same hearing we once did. W switches in an instant. "Was that a crack about age? Huh? You saying I'm old?"

Yeah, commenting on the loud music is a super secret code for "you're old." Sigh. But it was enough to change the mood in the house. They'll turn on a dime, and you can never anticipate when it will happen, because you don't feel things the way they do.

[confusedcontinum]

I completely agree.  The term "emotional incest" is such a horrible term because of the sexual connotations.  I DO NOT use it loosely. I hesitated to post it here.  But, I've been reading a lot about it in a book by Dr. Patricia Love: www.amazon.com/Emotional-Incest-Syndrome-Parents-Rules/dp/055335275X 

I see the symptom patterns in my D16 and the manipulative tactics (please note, I do not believe he's doing this on purpose... .I don't believe he knows the damage he is doing) especially now that I've been able to detach from him.  And…any damage is always done by me in his eyes…there is that too…

To be fair, I’ve been guilty of some of this behavior in the past and am trying to make changes.  One of the main areas is not letting the D’s have enough freedom with their peers….like dropping them off at the mall or the movies then picking them back up.  I always go with them…because I want to and they want me to (healthy) but also out of fear that something will happen to them and I’ll be blamed for it (not healthy).

And yes, I'm happy the D's love their father.  I am guilty of being hurt and confused when I typed this post.  Thank you for reminding me that yes... .some things I should accept as positive even though it's meant as a dig at me... .the Ds do not see it that way... .they are happy and that's what is important.

Thank you for the kind thoughts.  I’ll keep reading and get my D16 into therapy so she can learn how to express her own personal boundaries to her dad... .hopefully!

[Violet]

Confusedcontinum,

I think most of us here have encountered this at one time or another. My non's xBPD exhibits strange behaviors when she drops S4 off for visitation. It takes her 10 to 15 mins in total to leave our property because she must do the following vomit-inducing things to S4 first:

1. Suck on his fingers

2. Suck on his ears

3. Give him open-mouthed kisses on his mouth

4. Kiss him repeatedly (40 to 50 times) on the face, arms, and hands

She literally stands in the driveway doing all these things in plain view. My interpretation: she does all of this for the benefit of my non as if to say: "See. Look at me. Look at how much S4 can't live without me. Look at how close we are." My non used to get all worked up and they would break into an argument which is exactly what she wanted. For the last couple of years he has taken a different approach. He simply ignores her. Thats right. He doesn't look at her or acknowledge her presence. He just waits in the doorway for S4 to come to him. This is of course the exact opposite of what his instincts tell him to do, but this approach has worked out great. We noticed a decline in the number of times she would exhibit these behaviors during the drops. She sometimes goes months without doing it at all, but it always pops up again from time to time. My guess is she exhibits these behaviors when she feels out of control or feels inadequate as a parent. She hasn't stopped these behaviors completely but at least they occur less often.

[hendo123]

Confusedcontinum,



1. Suck on his fingers

2. Suck on his ears

3. Give him open-mouthed kisses on his mouth

4. Kiss him repeatedly (40 to 50 times) on the face, arms, and hands

I would say all these behaviours are extremely worrying, even if its just for effect. I work in social services and if any of our clients displayed such behaviour to their children in public, we'd be talking child protection investigations. For a child of four, giving him a cuddle and a kiss goodbye should suffice. No parent should ever be giving their children open-mouthed kisses. Thats just wrong.

[Violet]

I completely agree that the things she's doing are very wrong and very worrying. It's really bordering on sexual abuse in my opinion, but there's no way to prove she's doing it as she only does it in front of my non. In the end it ends up being his word against hers. There's no concrete proof she's doing any of these things. All of her behaviors are inappropriate where S4 is concerned.

[Joshua]

Violet, is there a way to video tape her doing these things? If it is in a public space, out in the open, I'm relatively certain she's got no right to say boo about it. Because, IMO, that's not bordering on sexual abuse- that IS sexual abuse. She's engaging in very sexualized behavior with him and could be seen as trying to normalize that behavior for him so moving forward isn't as noticeable to him- kind of like a frog in a pot of water.

Whether she actually plans on pushing forward with her behavior, no one can say... .but I definitely don't trust someone who behaves like that not to. Seriously, PLEASE, look up whether or not you can video tape the drop offs.

[Violet]

oshua,

We went through three years of video taping her and her recording us. Last year both parties were order by the court to cease all and any recording of the other party. It's even written into the court order. The recording got so out of control at one point when she began recording inside the pediatrician's office and any conversation that occurred over the phone with the pediatrician. She got busted and was permanently kicked out of the doctor's office as a result.

We've got some of this behavior on video, but I don't know if it's enough to raise any red flags with anyone. Just some video of her kissing D4 repeated on the face, arms, and hands. If this goes to trial (we'll find out on 10/6) we may use this as part of the argument to strip her of possession if they're even admissible at this point. Once XBPD realized that she could get in trouble with behaviors exhibited in the recordings she began "performing" for the camera. It's tough to prove anything. Again we get into a he said she said situation.

[whirlpoollife]

I will add my experiences.  I understand how difficult it to post this subject.  Separated after long marriage, S and D .   X2bh , when we were living together h would make sure S was in his bed and I in mine,couch. Then he 'd call D , then 11, to go to him and lay next him, in the dark to look at cartoons on his phone.  I would ask him to watch the videos with her on the tv in the living room.   Nope and he would do this even more.    He would lay in her bed length wise with her length wise. I would tell d to get up and away, which she did but he turned that on me so d could hear, that I wasn't letting  him have time  to visit with her. He was laying drunk in his bathtub, he would text me to bring him beer. He called out loud to d to bring him a beer and watch utube on his phone while in he was in the bathtub. I was so scared of him then,but I yelled at him . He justified it by being angry at me , saying he was behind the curtain so he's covered, and if I want I can stay and watch the cartoons on his phone along with them .  He felt he was doing nothing wrong.

Face to face kisses and hugs more like boyfriend and girlfriend.

I brought this to the attention of my then therapist , nothing. I brought it to attention to kids GAL, nothing.   When I finally went to counseling at the crisis shelter, they said yes it is a form of sexual abuse. But like emotional abuse, there is no evidence.  I asked d if any of this made her uncomfortable , no. I said if anything does to please tell me or a counselor at school.

I feel he knows what he is doing, he brings things right to the point of it being physical abuse but doesn't cross that line and does so in your face to get a reaction.

The competivness as a parent was very strong. I could have another whole page on that.

My gut feeling was this wasn't the normal father daughter bond. But I still question myself on this , is it me carrying my thoughts too far, I don't  ever want to falsely accuse someone .