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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: Crazy People Are Better in Bed  (Read 8958 times)
grimalkin
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« on: December 21, 2010, 03:33:45 PM »

I am becoming more convinced of this.  After reading dozens of posts regarding this very subject, and from my own personal experience, it seems that's the simple and obvious answer.  Everyone I've ever been with that has been any good had one disorder or another-- BPD, NPD, bipolar, etc. 

After that inflammatory set of statements, I'd love to hear what others have to say.  I think I'm pretty convinced.

Grim
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grimalkin
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2010, 03:35:25 PM »

I am becoming more convinced of this.  After reading dozens of posts regarding this very subject, and from my own personal experience, it seems that's the simple and obvious answer.  Everyone I've ever been with that has been any good had one disorder or another-- BPD, NPD, bipolar, etc. 

After that inflammatory set of statements, I'd love to hear what others have to say.  I think I'm pretty convinced.

Grim

I should add that I'm bipolar II and a recovered BP, so my own idea of terrific sex might just have to involve two crazy people.  I don't know.  Could be my problem.
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GCD145
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2010, 04:05:31 PM »

Bullsht of the purest ray serene.

Crazy people are not better in bed, except maybe to other crazy people.

GCD145
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grimalkin
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2010, 04:23:10 PM »

Bullsht of the purest ray serene.

Crazy people are not better in bed, except maybe to other crazy people.

GCD145

Wow.  Don't hold back-- tell us how you feel.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Sure seems like BPD leaves people wanting more, even after abuse, etc.  Just wondering why that is.

And yeah, I have my own issues.  I stated that previously.  Well medicated, but still mood disordered-- no need to point out what I've already admitted to.  I don't think there was anything wrong with what I posted.  I was pretty straightforward about what my motivations were. 

That aside-- Tell me why so many people can't move past the sex, even after months and months.  It is a consistent topic on these boards-- nons aching for their obviously toxic lovers.  My personal opinion is that crazies put themselves into sex like most nons don't.  They are unhinged and that follows through into lack of inhibition, perhaps?

This is an honest attempt at discussion.

Grim
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sarah1234
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2010, 04:32:46 PM »

I don't really have very nice experience of sex with someone with NPD/BPD as initially it was all porn star type which can be overwhelming, but it degenerated into degrading, extreme boundary pushing, cold, detatched self gratification/proving something to self about his virility, his strength, his power. He thought it was his ultimate weapon but it always goes wrong for him because his women stop wanting sex and start wanting true real intimacy and affection which he can't give.

I notice a lot of men hinged on the sex. Women are wired differently to men, so I can't comment from a mans point of view. All I can say is that I don't miss it one little bit and never will!
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GCD145
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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2010, 04:36:38 PM »

Bullsht of the purest ray serene.

Crazy people are not better in bed, except maybe to other crazy people.

GCD145

Wow.  Don't hold back-- tell us how you feel.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I always say what I really feel.

And what I feel is that what you posted is flat out ludicrous.

The reason IMO people can't get past the sex with their pwBPD- assuming they were still having sex with that person, which is by no means universal- is because they themselves have serious issues with intimacy, typically arising from a lack of self-esteem or some other factor that makes them tend towards codependent behavior.  They confuse "crazy sex" with "good sex." The two are not the same.

Maybe try meeting some sane people, and give them a whirl.

GCD145
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Mason06
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2010, 04:46:57 PM »

I don't really have very nice experience of sex with someone with NPD/BPD as initially it was all porn star type which can be overwhelming, but it degenerated into degrading, extreme boundary pushing, cold, detatched self gratification/proving something to self about his virility, his strength, his power.

The sex was often great but his pushing of boundaries happened to me as well.  When I told him no, and even explained how I wouldn't enjoy doing certain things, it really upset him.  I tried a few things in college (which I made the mistake of sharing with him) but learned that I'm really not that into them.  He didn't seem to care.  He even put on the tears and the emotions to guilt me into it by telling me that it was "something special he wanted to share with me" and that he was upset that he would "never be able to share that kind of intimacy/experience with me."  Um, not everything done in a porno is "special."

He had very little respect for my feelings on the matter.  Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure he just wanted control.  It didn't take very long for me to get over the sex since I figured out it was mostly control-driven.
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grimalkin
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 04:49:10 PM »

Bullsht of the purest ray serene.

Crazy people are not better in bed, except maybe to other crazy people.

GCD145

Wow.  Don't hold back-- tell us how you feel.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I always say what I really feel.

And what I feel is that what you posted is flat out ludicrous.

The reason IMO people can't get past the sex with their pwBPD- assuming they were still having sex with that person, which is by no means universal- is because they themselves have serious issues with intimacy, typically arising from a lack of self-esteem or some other factor that makes them tend towards codependent behavior.  They confuse "crazy sex" with "good sex." The two are not the same.

Maybe try meeting some sane people, and give them a whirl.

GCD145

No need to be catty.

I *have* been with "sane" people.  I never said my experience was universal-- I just personally connected better and had better sex with disordered people.  As I said, that could very well be my problem.  Actually, not sure it's a problem-- just my experience.  The sex was never a problem at all.

So-- according to you, everyone who pines for their exBP is doing so because THEY have a problem with intimacy?  That's a pretty broad statement to make about people you don't even know.  Just about as ludicrous as you feel my thoughts to be.  You can't speak for every last person on this board, now can you?  I don't think they'd appreciate it, either.

Awesome.  Finally a good, direct discussion about the true nature of the BPD sexual spell.  Keep 'em coming!

Grim
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sarah1234
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 04:50:19 PM »

Bullsht of the purest ray serene.

Crazy people are not better in bed, except maybe to other crazy people.

GCD145

Wow.  Don't hold back-- tell us how you feel.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I always say what I really feel.

And what I feel is that what you posted is flat out ludicrous.

The reason IMO people can't get past the sex with their pwBPD- assuming they were still having sex with that person, which is by no means universal- is because they themselves have serious issues with intimacy, typically arising from a lack of self-esteem or some other factor that makes them tend towards codependent behavior.  They confuse "crazy sex" with "good sex." The two are not the same.

Maybe try meeting some sane people, and give them a whirl.

GCD145

I agree with a lot of what you say... .like I said, I don't miss it because it wasn't good. It wasn't nice, maybe some people do enjoy that type of sex but I don't and like to think that sexually and emotionally I am quite well balanced enough to realise there was something wrong about it. It started to make me feel uncomfortable early on. I don't really want to be needed in that way. I expect a lot more from a relationship than awesome non-stop no holds barred sex. If your relationship is soley based on sex and its the one thing you miss, then the issue there is that the sex was the only intimacy you really had together, and you yourself confuse sex with love, emotion and intimacy

Wanting to be wanted THAT badly that someone would want to have crazy sex with you all the time is flattering no?

Not for me, but I can see it would be attractive to some people.
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sarah1234
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2010, 04:52:26 PM »

I don't really have very nice experience of sex with someone with NPD/BPD as initially it was all porn star type which can be overwhelming, but it degenerated into degrading, extreme boundary pushing, cold, detatched self gratification/proving something to self about his virility, his strength, his power.

The sex was often great but his pushing of boundaries happened to me as well.  When I told him no, and even explained how I wouldn't enjoy doing certain things, it really upset him.  I tried a few things in college (which I made the mistake of sharing with him) but learned that I'm really not that into them.  He didn't seem to care.  He even put on the tears and the emotions to guilt me into it by telling me that it was "something special he wanted to share with me" and that he was upset that he would "never be able to share that kind of intimacy/experience with me."  Um, not everything done in a porno is "special."

He had very little respect for my feelings on the matter.  Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure he just wanted control.  It didn't take very long for me to get over the sex since I figured out it was mostly control-driven.

Feel for you here. It has really thrown me with intimacy.

He tried to get me to do all sorts. I once caved in and let him watch porn while we were having sex, but stopped him halfway through as I noticed he could not stop staring at the TV, was not interested in me at all.

He also tried to get me to ask my female friends to join us in the bedroom. He wanted us to swing, go dogging and when I said no to all these things, he would sulk and equate it to me not loving him. I felt like a sex object and it was horrible.
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grimalkin
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2010, 04:57:57 PM »

I don't really have very nice experience of sex with someone with NPD/BPD as initially it was all porn star type which can be overwhelming, but it degenerated into degrading, extreme boundary pushing, cold, detatched self gratification/proving something to self about his virility, his strength, his power.

The sex was often great but his pushing of boundaries happened to me as well.  When I told him no, and even explained how I wouldn't enjoy doing certain things, it really upset him.  I tried a few things in college (which I made the mistake of sharing with him) but learned that I'm really not that into them.  He didn't seem to care.  He even put on the tears and the emotions to guilt me into it by telling me that it was "something special he wanted to share with me" and that he was upset that he would "never be able to share that kind of intimacy/experience with me."  Um, not everything done in a porno is "special."

He had very little respect for my feelings on the matter.  Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure he just wanted control.  It didn't take very long for me to get over the sex since I figured out it was mostly control-driven.

I'm sorry you had that experience.  Disrespect in general is a horrible thing-- in bed it's unforgivable.


Grim
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GCD145
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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2010, 05:02:26 PM »

Just about as ludicrous as you feel my thoughts to be.  You can't speak for every last person on this board, now can you?  I don't think they'd appreciate it, either.

Grim

Who's being catty now?

You seem to have no trouble making broad generalizations, so I'm just following your lead.

However, I'll stand by my assertion.  Those of us who were in a relationship with a person with BPD, who didn't run at the first sign of trouble, or the tenth, or the millionth in some cases, have problems with intimacy.

To what else would you attribute such colossal and self-destructive failure of reason?

GCD145
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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2010, 05:09:21 PM »

Hmmm.  I only have a sample of 2, so I'm not sure I know the answer, but my BPDw, is only better than my first experience because she can consistently O.  Other than that, sex has to be just so or it ends up a disaster.  Lots of performance anxiety for me.  I would vote no on this.
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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2010, 05:18:20 PM »

I always say what I really feel.

And what I feel is that what you posted is flat out ludicrous.

The reason IMO people can't get past the sex with their pwBPD- assuming they were still having sex with that person, which is by no means universal- is because they themselves have serious issues with intimacy, typically arising from a lack of self-esteem or some other factor that makes them tend towards codependent behavior.  They confuse "crazy sex" with "good sex." The two are not the same.

Maybe try meeting some sane people, and give them a whirl.

GCD145

I disagree with you GCD. Please show me a component of "real" intimacy that was missing from my relationship? In hindsight, of course I see that it wasn't exactly "real" intimacy, because she was incapable of truly saying what she meant and meaning what she said - and furthermore, ever following through with any long term commitments + she was fundamentally broken as a person. However, during the relationship, I was closer to her than I have ever been to anyone else in my life. I know her inside out, her likes/dislikes, fears, worries, aspirations, dreams, etc etc etc. This is what makes BPD such a complicated illness. It is fake, yet real, dysfunctional, yet in a way, extremely functional. This is also why so many of us stay for as long as we did. If it really was always that bad, that clear, that jaded, we would have left long ago. But, there is always a glimpse of hope, always a fragment of what could be, and I am still under the opinion that much of the relationship is as real - even the intimacy part - as any other "normal" relationship. This is what truly makes being in a relationship with a borderline so heart-breaking.

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po·ten·tial  adj.
1. Capable of being but not yet in existence; latent: a potential greatness.
2. Having possibility, capability, or power.
3. The inherent ability or capacity for growth, development, or coming into being.
4. Something possessing the capacity for growth or development.
grimalkin
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2010, 05:19:22 PM »

Just about as ludicrous as you feel my thoughts to be.  You can't speak for every last person on this board, now can you?  I don't think they'd appreciate it, either.

Grim

Who's being catty now?

You seem to have no trouble making broad generalizations, so I'm just following your lead.

However, I'll stand by my assertion.  Those of us who were in a relationship with a person with BPD, who didn't run at the first sign of trouble, or the tenth, or the millionth in some cases, have problems with intimacy.

To what else would you attribute such colossal and self-destructive failure of reason?

GCD145

I attribute it to crazy people being better in bed, as in the title of my post.

I feel the need to make it clear that I am not really trying to make anyone feel bad, including yourself.  I was making the point that for a LOT of people on these boards, the sex was just awesome for them.  I don't think that was simply because we're all a bunch of pathetic losers who have never had a normal, loving relationship, or whatever.  I DO actually think that disordered people can make very good lovers BECAUSE they are disordered.  Inhibitions down, balls out glorious sex.

I made the title of this thread inflammatory on purpose because I wanted to know how others feel about the attraction that disordered people hold.  The sex is obviously an issue.  Why are they so good?  I don't think it can simply be attributed to the non-- otherwise any good sex would do the trick.  But sex with a disordered person, specifically BPs, seems to leave a lasting impression.  

I apologize for making you feel angry or bad with my posts.  It wasn't my intent.  Honestly I just can't get over how many threads are specifically about sex.  There is something sexy about crazy.  I was just approaching it dead on instead of meandering around specific cases or trying to deal with untangling someone's individual experience when so many of us seem to be having the same problem.

A hint of danger?  Again, a lack of inhibition?  Being "present" in the moment?  Emotional intensity?  Maybe their own completely messed up lack of boundaries?  All of the above?

Grim
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grimalkin
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« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2010, 05:20:35 PM »

I always say what I really feel.

And what I feel is that what you posted is flat out ludicrous.

The reason IMO people can't get past the sex with their pwBPD- assuming they were still having sex with that person, which is by no means universal- is because they themselves have serious issues with intimacy, typically arising from a lack of self-esteem or some other factor that makes them tend towards codependent behavior.  They confuse "crazy sex" with "good sex." The two are not the same.

Maybe try meeting some sane people, and give them a whirl.

GCD145

I disagree with you GCD. Please show me a component of "real" intimacy that was missing from my relationship? In hindsight, of course I see that it wasn't exactly "real" intimacy, because she was incapable of truly saying what she meant and meaning what she said - and furthermore, ever following through with any long term commitments + she was fundamentally broken as a person. However, during the relationship, I was closer to her than I have ever been to anyone else in my life. I know her inside out, her likes/dislikes, fears, worries, aspirations, dreams, etc etc etc. This is what makes BPD such a complicated illness. It is fake, yet real, dysfunctional, yet in a way, extremely functional. This is also why so many of us stay for as long as we did. If it really was always that bad, that clear, that jaded, we would have left long ago. But, there is always a glimpse of hope, always a fragment of what could be, and I am still under the opinion that much of the relationship is as real - even the intimacy part - as any other "normal" relationship. This is what truly makes being in a relationship with a borderline so heart-breaking.

This was my experience as well.  I never felt closer to anyone in my entire life.

Grim
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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 05:32:04 PM »

Having normal, non-sex to compare it to, I don't find the level of emotional intensity, lack of inhibitions, neediness, crazy and dysfunctional sexy or attractive. I think maybe for a while, I did then. Someone wanted me. They wanted to tell me everything and love me and show me how much I meant to them.

But for every single time ^happened, there were 3 times when they were too rough, too lazy to pleasure me, wanted sex instead of affection, wanted sex after saying cruel things, didn't listen to what I wanted, it was all about them and their feelings. Feeling neglected and unloved when I was tired and just wanted to cuddle and talk. 

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grimalkin
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« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 05:36:53 PM »

Having normal, non-sex to compare it to, I don't find the level of emotional intensity, lack of inhibitions, neediness, crazy and dysfunctional sexy or attractive. I think maybe for a while, I did then. Someone wanted me. They wanted to tell me everything and love me and show me how much I meant to them.

But for every single time ^happened, there were 3 times when they were too rough, too lazy to pleasure me, wanted sex instead of affection, wanted sex after saying cruel things, didn't listen to what I wanted, it was all about them and their feelings. Feeling neglected and unloved when I was tired and just wanted to cuddle and talk. 

See, now that's just wrong.  Was this person NPD as well?

I'm open to being proven wrong.  Keep 'em coming.

Grim
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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 05:37:51 PM »

I don't know if crazy people are better in bed... .but I do know that my stbxBPDw was the best sex I ever had.  And from what I have been reading since joining this site is that seems to be the general concensus with a few exceptions.

Maybe it's because during sex they feel totally accepted... .maybe it is a form of control... .maybe it is the feeling of euphoria that allows the pain to go away... .or maybe it's something much deeper that we may never understand... .but my personal impression is that they tend to be much less inhibited.  From a guy's perspective, oral sex is always a bonus... .but my pwBPD was always willing to provide.  Multiple sex sessions was the standard/norm rather than the expcetion... .and sexting and all the allure... .all good.  These pwBPD refine sexiness to an art form and know exactly what makes their mate tick.  They can drive their lover wild with excitement and know just how to tease them.

Are crazy people better in bed... .mine was.

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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 05:38:11 PM »

Define crazy.

Then define "better" in bed. Smiling (click to insert in post)

I think it's a broad statement to say that if someone is crazy, they are better in bed. Or the contrast, if you are good in bed, you must be crazy.

Someone who presents themself as confident with their body and sexuality is in close proximity to someone who could perhaps instead had their boundaries shattered and is coping with a some sort of sexual addiction.  Porn stars are a good example of such a thing.

For me personally, I had to tackle my own issues in therapy to ever realize what it is that made me crave connections in certain aspects to men(which included sexually).  I don't think it's always about "them", their skills in the sack or lack thereof.  It has so much more to do with "us" and why we feel compelled to be connected to people who seem to be emotionally unavailable.

I also am married to a non who was once married to a pwBPD and I don't think it's fair to compare.  I think it's like comparing being sober to having a drug habit.  Being in a sexual relationship with a pwBPD may have that uncomparable "high"... .but the crash is hardly worth it.  Being in a committed give and take relationship, which includes the sexual aspect of it, is far more healthier for you in the long run.

Just my opinion of course. Smiling (click to insert in post)

~DG
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« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2010, 05:44:06 PM »

I dunno, I think it has a lot to do with the nature of borderline personality disorder opening themselves up immediately and indiscriminately. A lot of us have described finding our "soul-mates" or someone who "gets-us" as our first impressions of our SOwBPD. Great sex, not describing the emotionless uninhibited porn-star sex, but referring to the extreme passionate, intimate and blissful sex that I experienced with my exBPDgf, is only achieved when two people completely let go. A lot of you may disagree and say borderlines never "truly" love or "truly" let go, that it is just manipulation, but I whole-heartedly disagree. For the time being, the borderline IS madly in love with you, walls down and vulnerable. It is this feeling that eventually gets them to wall up again, because they FEAR closeness and intimacy. The reason why they end up hating us and distrusting us so much is that we have penetrated that wall that they feel keeps them safe. It is a catch 22. They crave intimacy, yet intimacy is what ultimately dysregulates them... .this doesn't mean that it never existed.

I think that a lot of us who are disengaging from the BPD relationship tend to want to turn the relationship into one giant scheme of manipulation and deception. There is nothing wrong with this, but after reflecting back and seeing the relationship for what it was, both good and bad, I am confidant that she, my BPDexgf, did at one point hold those intimate feelings and truly want the relationship to succeed. However, like I said, damned if you do, damned if you don't, because until a borderline can get past the suffocating feeling of being vulnerable, intimacy will be their undoing.

If BPDs solely just used us, they would have been far more manipulative and would never have bit the hand that feeds as hard and often as they did.
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po·ten·tial  adj.
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« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2010, 05:50:55 PM »

Having normal, non-sex to compare it to, I don't find the level of emotional intensity, lack of inhibitions, neediness, crazy and dysfunctional sexy or attractive. I think maybe for a while, I did then. Someone wanted me. They wanted to tell me everything and love me and show me how much I meant to them.

But for every single time ^happened, there were 3 times when they were too rough, too lazy to pleasure me, wanted sex instead of affection, wanted sex after saying cruel things, didn't listen to what I wanted, it was all about them and their feelings. Feeling neglected and unloved when I was tired and just wanted to cuddle and talk. 

See, now that's just wrong.  Was this person NPD as well?

I'm open to being proven wrong.  Keep 'em coming.

Grim

yeah NPD. Oh the things I could tell you about him  ;p  

I then 6 months after that ended met someone who I am sure has BPD and is a waif.

Sex with him was completely different but needy, insecure, overwhelming for me - too much intensity for me was a shock and so sudden. It wasn't bad and he didn't make me feel awful or degraded in any way. I believe he really did love me and was being truely intimate with me. He didn't really use it as control either but as he got more dysregulated obviously I found him and the sex less attractive.

It is easier for me to demonise exno1 and his NPD ways than it is ex2, because I feel ex2 was much more genuine. I just don't miss it and it isn't what I would like to experience again.   
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« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2010, 05:53:22 PM »

I dunno, I think it has a lot to do with the nature of borderline personality disorder opening themselves up immediately and indiscriminately. A lot of us have described finding our "soul-mates" or someone who "gets-us" as our first impressions of our SOwBPD. Great sex, not describing the emotionless uninhibited porn-star sex, but referring to the extreme passionate, intimate and blissful sex that I experienced with my exBPDgf, is only achieved when two people completely let go. A lot of you may disagree and say borderlines never "truly" love or "truly" let go, that it is just manipulation, but I whole-heartedly disagree. For the time being, the borderline IS madly in love with you, walls down and vulnerable. It is this feeling that eventually gets them to wall up again, because they FEAR closeness and intimacy. The reason why they end up hating us and distrusting us so much is that we have penetrated that wall that they feel keeps them safe. It is a catch 22. They crave intimacy, yet intimacy is what ultimately dysregulates them... .this doesn't mean that it never existed.

I think that a lot of us who are disengaging from the BPD relationship tend to want to turn the relationship into one giant scheme of manipulation and deception. There is nothing wrong with this, but after reflecting back and seeing the relationship for what it was, both good and bad, I am confidant that she, my BPDexgf, did at one point hold those intimate feelings and truly want the relationship to succeed. However, like I said, damned if you do, damned if you don't, because until a borderline can get past the suffocating feeling of being vulnerable, intimacy will be their undoing.

If BPDs solely just used us, they would have been far more manipulative and would never have bit the hand that feeds as hard and often as they did.

Thank you.  I'm also in the camp that their feelings were real, intense and totally consuming.  It's the fear of those emotions that makes them do what they do that hurts us.

Grim
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« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2010, 05:57:58 PM »

Excerpt
my own idea of terrific sex might just have to involve two crazy people.



I've always loved the term "bat___ crazy," but for now, let's just agree to leave crazy out of the equation and use "incentive for dysfunction" instead.

What you are really considering here is Need, not sex drive. So, the question should be, “Does using sex as a valuation make sex better in the minds of those being judged on their value? Of course it does, otherwise the behavior wouldn’t be worthwhile to that person. You’ve got to follow the need and find the reward here and it delves deeply into the fundamentals of ego psychology.

The sex drive was an important motivation in early Freudian psychoanalysis. Freud's drive theory referred to people’s basic instincts that moved them toward clear objects.  Seems simple enough, right? It wasn't until later, that Ego Psychologists brought in *incentive.*

Later theorists began to challenge drive theory because of the obvious secondary drives that were aroused by incentive. For example, why would a human being explore outside of their primary relationship for sex, when their primary drive could be satisfied at home? What would be the incentive? BTW, Primary drives are innate drives (e.g. thirst, hunger, and sex), whereas secondary drives very likely are learned by conditioning.

Secondary drives were far more interesting to Psychoanalytic Ego Psychologists because they involved self concepts rather than basic drives.  Ego Psychologists are the people who say things that make you go, hmmmmm because their research is based on a person’s awareness of their self; i.e. the ego (and they don’t pull punches.)

They determined that one of the ego’s major tasks is to develop and maintain a sense of personal identity.  When that personal identity is used as an incentive for a drive- it generally is transformed out of a way to combat unthinkable anxiety to the ego.  Unthinkable anxiety is anything to do with falling to pieces, failing, having no relationship to the body, having no motivation, no incentive, no BEING- perhaps due to complete isolation or inadequate communication.

When this merging of unthinkable anxiety and sex drive occurs, it is based on incentive. The incentive is to offset anxiety with the merging of two bodies. The ego feels better because of mirroring received and the act of sex is then used as a confirmation of admiration, for the specialness and greatness that is not felt alone.

Now we have a basic drive that involves a secondary incentive to that drive. (The incentive is the need to feel better about ourselves.) Follow the reward. Find the Need. Easy to become an addictive compulsion that is a vicious cycle. Easy to become more anxiety than before we used sex to stop the anxiety.  This is Borderline personality disorder.  

Despairing, hopeless, distraught and clutching at straws to feel a sense of purpose in life. Some ego psychologists determine the behavior as a task, i.e., prostitution of sorts for valuation, not money.

Drive theory states that due to the unpredictable nature of people, a person performing a task rarely knows for certain what the other person is going to do in response. Therefore, there is a clear state of alert arousal. Increased arousal (stress) can therefore be seen as an instinctive reaction to the drive.

This arousal creates a "drive" that causes us to enact the behaviors that form our dominant response to that particular situation. Those behaviors have been conditioned from childhood. Our dominant response is the most likely response given our skill.

Two Borderlines together during sex fight for control of who is more valued. This is called “the audience effect.” The audience effect notes that in some cases the presence of a passive audience will facilitate the better performance of a task; while in other cases the presence of an audience will inhibit the performance of a task.

Generally, Borderlines find Narcissists less stressful (a better audience) because the Narcissist has no recognition of the Borderline as an external agent of satisfaction. He believes that his bodily fulfillment stems from his own perfection and power. Two Borderlines however, fight with each other over domination at first and then submission later and the result is VALUATION.

So you can see that Borderline behavior is based on sex being a valuation tool for the ego. To not have valuation accomplished by sex increases the need for valuation elsewhere (with other people) to offset the reminder of constant, unthinkable anxiety.  In order to offset the unthinkable anxiety the new situation and the new rewarding object must induce a stress response which will then be interpreted as:

* novel, and/or

* unpredictable, and/or

* not controllable by the individual, and/or

* in the presence of a social evaluative threat.

You can see where this is headed. Why do Borderlines cheat? The bottom line is that this is not about a basic drive for sex. It is about valuation. Valuation of sex concerning mirrored reward and *needing sex to feel valued* about themselves.

(BTW, Nowhere in my post is intimacy even mentioned.)  Idea

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« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2010, 06:11:47 PM »

2010, thank you for another great post.

So I'm still at a bit of a loss as to what happened during my own relationship-- bat**** would have been a good word for both of us by the end of it.  He's BP and the relationship brought out latent BP tendencies in myself that I thought I'd long since gotten over.  So, we were first battling for control, then submission?  I don't get it.  Battling for valuation?  Who's the most pathetic?  that almost sounds about right, I hate to say.

Grim
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« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2010, 06:12:39 PM »

I feel the need to make it clear that I am not really trying to make anyone feel bad, including yourself.  

I apologize for making you feel angry or bad with my posts.  

Grim

You didn't make me feel bad.  I am now having the best sex of my life with a completely normal person, and I can assure you that there is no conceivable way that anything you have experienced COULD POSSIBLY be better.

What you posted originally was STUPID.

GCD145
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« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2010, 06:16:36 PM »

I disagree with you GCD. Please show me a component of "real" intimacy that was missing from my relationship? In hindsight, of course I see that it wasn't exactly "real" intimacy, because she was incapable of truly saying what she meant and meaning what she said - and furthermore, ever following through with any long term commitments + she was fundamentally broken as a person. However, during the relationship, I was closer to her than I have ever been to anyone else in my life. I know her inside out, her likes/dislikes, fears, worries, aspirations, dreams, etc etc etc. This is what makes BPD such a complicated illness. It is fake, yet real, dysfunctional, yet in a way, extremely functional. This is also why so many of us stay for as long as we did. If it really was always that bad, that clear, that jaded, we would have left long ago. But, there is always a glimpse of hope, always a fragment of what could be, and I am still under the opinion that much of the relationship is as real - even the intimacy part - as any other "normal" relationship. This is what truly makes being in a relationship with a borderline so heart-breaking.

Seriously?  Did you post something that can be paraphrased as "show you one facet of real intimacy that was missing from your relationship with a broken person who is incapable of real intimacy?"  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

GCD145

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grimalkin
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« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2010, 06:25:13 PM »

I feel the need to make it clear that I am not really trying to make anyone feel bad, including yourself.  

I apologize for making you feel angry or bad with my posts.  

Grim

You didn't make me feel bad.  I am now having the best sex of my life with a completely normal person, and I can assure you that there is no conceivable way that anything you have experienced COULD POSSIBLY be better.

What you posted originally was STUPID.

GCD145

What you've posted in response to me has been RUDE and highly PERSONAL.  If you didn't like the original post, why didn't you ignore it?  Why insult me?  I never attacked you.  What's your deal?  Now you insult my sex life?  What the h***?

Just go away.  We're trying to have a serious discussion here.  If you've got nothing to say that adds to it just stop posting    

Grim
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grimalkin
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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2010, 06:26:34 PM »

I disagree with you GCD. Please show me a component of "real" intimacy that was missing from my relationship? In hindsight, of course I see that it wasn't exactly "real" intimacy, because she was incapable of truly saying what she meant and meaning what she said - and furthermore, ever following through with any long term commitments + she was fundamentally broken as a person. However, during the relationship, I was closer to her than I have ever been to anyone else in my life. I know her inside out, her likes/dislikes, fears, worries, aspirations, dreams, etc etc etc. This is what makes BPD such a complicated illness. It is fake, yet real, dysfunctional, yet in a way, extremely functional. This is also why so many of us stay for as long as we did. If it really was always that bad, that clear, that jaded, we would have left long ago. But, there is always a glimpse of hope, always a fragment of what could be, and I am still under the opinion that much of the relationship is as real - even the intimacy part - as any other "normal" relationship. This is what truly makes being in a relationship with a borderline so heart-breaking.

Seriously?  Did you post something that can be paraphrased as "show you one facet of real intimacy that was missing from your relationship with a broken person who is incapable of real intimacy?"  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

GCD145

Again with the rude disregard of others' feelings.  You really need to stop.

Grim
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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2010, 06:31:12 PM »

I disagree with you GCD. Please show me a component of "real" intimacy that was missing from my relationship? In hindsight, of course I see that it wasn't exactly "real" intimacy, because she was incapable of truly saying what she meant and meaning what she said - and furthermore, ever following through with any long term commitments + she was fundamentally broken as a person. However, during the relationship, I was closer to her than I have ever been to anyone else in my life. I know her inside out, her likes/dislikes, fears, worries, aspirations, dreams, etc etc etc. This is what makes BPD such a complicated illness. It is fake, yet real, dysfunctional, yet in a way, extremely functional. This is also why so many of us stay for as long as we did. If it really was

Seriously?  Did you post something that can be paraphrased as "show you one facet of real intimacy that was missing from your relationship with a broken person who is incapable of real intimacy?"  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

GCD145

I just reported you to a moderator.  We are supposed to respect each other on these boards.  I don't understand your need for personal insults and mockery.  Please stop.

Grim
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