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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: Crazy People Are Better in Bed  (Read 8939 times)
grimalkin
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« on: December 21, 2010, 03:33:45 PM »

I am becoming more convinced of this.  After reading dozens of posts regarding this very subject, and from my own personal experience, it seems that's the simple and obvious answer.  Everyone I've ever been with that has been any good had one disorder or another-- BPD, NPD, bipolar, etc. 

After that inflammatory set of statements, I'd love to hear what others have to say.  I think I'm pretty convinced.

Grim
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grimalkin
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2010, 03:35:25 PM »

I am becoming more convinced of this.  After reading dozens of posts regarding this very subject, and from my own personal experience, it seems that's the simple and obvious answer.  Everyone I've ever been with that has been any good had one disorder or another-- BPD, NPD, bipolar, etc. 

After that inflammatory set of statements, I'd love to hear what others have to say.  I think I'm pretty convinced.

Grim

I should add that I'm bipolar II and a recovered BP, so my own idea of terrific sex might just have to involve two crazy people.  I don't know.  Could be my problem.
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GCD145
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2010, 04:05:31 PM »

Bullsht of the purest ray serene.

Crazy people are not better in bed, except maybe to other crazy people.

GCD145
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grimalkin
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2010, 04:23:10 PM »

Bullsht of the purest ray serene.

Crazy people are not better in bed, except maybe to other crazy people.

GCD145

Wow.  Don't hold back-- tell us how you feel.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Sure seems like BPD leaves people wanting more, even after abuse, etc.  Just wondering why that is.

And yeah, I have my own issues.  I stated that previously.  Well medicated, but still mood disordered-- no need to point out what I've already admitted to.  I don't think there was anything wrong with what I posted.  I was pretty straightforward about what my motivations were. 

That aside-- Tell me why so many people can't move past the sex, even after months and months.  It is a consistent topic on these boards-- nons aching for their obviously toxic lovers.  My personal opinion is that crazies put themselves into sex like most nons don't.  They are unhinged and that follows through into lack of inhibition, perhaps?

This is an honest attempt at discussion.

Grim
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sarah1234
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2010, 04:32:46 PM »

I don't really have very nice experience of sex with someone with NPD/BPD as initially it was all porn star type which can be overwhelming, but it degenerated into degrading, extreme boundary pushing, cold, detatched self gratification/proving something to self about his virility, his strength, his power. He thought it was his ultimate weapon but it always goes wrong for him because his women stop wanting sex and start wanting true real intimacy and affection which he can't give.

I notice a lot of men hinged on the sex. Women are wired differently to men, so I can't comment from a mans point of view. All I can say is that I don't miss it one little bit and never will!
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GCD145
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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2010, 04:36:38 PM »

Bullsht of the purest ray serene.

Crazy people are not better in bed, except maybe to other crazy people.

GCD145

Wow.  Don't hold back-- tell us how you feel.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I always say what I really feel.

And what I feel is that what you posted is flat out ludicrous.

The reason IMO people can't get past the sex with their pwBPD- assuming they were still having sex with that person, which is by no means universal- is because they themselves have serious issues with intimacy, typically arising from a lack of self-esteem or some other factor that makes them tend towards codependent behavior.  They confuse "crazy sex" with "good sex." The two are not the same.

Maybe try meeting some sane people, and give them a whirl.

GCD145
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Mason06
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2010, 04:46:57 PM »

I don't really have very nice experience of sex with someone with NPD/BPD as initially it was all porn star type which can be overwhelming, but it degenerated into degrading, extreme boundary pushing, cold, detatched self gratification/proving something to self about his virility, his strength, his power.

The sex was often great but his pushing of boundaries happened to me as well.  When I told him no, and even explained how I wouldn't enjoy doing certain things, it really upset him.  I tried a few things in college (which I made the mistake of sharing with him) but learned that I'm really not that into them.  He didn't seem to care.  He even put on the tears and the emotions to guilt me into it by telling me that it was "something special he wanted to share with me" and that he was upset that he would "never be able to share that kind of intimacy/experience with me."  Um, not everything done in a porno is "special."

He had very little respect for my feelings on the matter.  Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure he just wanted control.  It didn't take very long for me to get over the sex since I figured out it was mostly control-driven.
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grimalkin
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 04:49:10 PM »

Bullsht of the purest ray serene.

Crazy people are not better in bed, except maybe to other crazy people.

GCD145

Wow.  Don't hold back-- tell us how you feel.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I always say what I really feel.

And what I feel is that what you posted is flat out ludicrous.

The reason IMO people can't get past the sex with their pwBPD- assuming they were still having sex with that person, which is by no means universal- is because they themselves have serious issues with intimacy, typically arising from a lack of self-esteem or some other factor that makes them tend towards codependent behavior.  They confuse "crazy sex" with "good sex." The two are not the same.

Maybe try meeting some sane people, and give them a whirl.

GCD145

No need to be catty.

I *have* been with "sane" people.  I never said my experience was universal-- I just personally connected better and had better sex with disordered people.  As I said, that could very well be my problem.  Actually, not sure it's a problem-- just my experience.  The sex was never a problem at all.

So-- according to you, everyone who pines for their exBP is doing so because THEY have a problem with intimacy?  That's a pretty broad statement to make about people you don't even know.  Just about as ludicrous as you feel my thoughts to be.  You can't speak for every last person on this board, now can you?  I don't think they'd appreciate it, either.

Awesome.  Finally a good, direct discussion about the true nature of the BPD sexual spell.  Keep 'em coming!

Grim
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sarah1234
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 04:50:19 PM »

Bullsht of the purest ray serene.

Crazy people are not better in bed, except maybe to other crazy people.

GCD145

Wow.  Don't hold back-- tell us how you feel.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I always say what I really feel.

And what I feel is that what you posted is flat out ludicrous.

The reason IMO people can't get past the sex with their pwBPD- assuming they were still having sex with that person, which is by no means universal- is because they themselves have serious issues with intimacy, typically arising from a lack of self-esteem or some other factor that makes them tend towards codependent behavior.  They confuse "crazy sex" with "good sex." The two are not the same.

Maybe try meeting some sane people, and give them a whirl.

GCD145

I agree with a lot of what you say... .like I said, I don't miss it because it wasn't good. It wasn't nice, maybe some people do enjoy that type of sex but I don't and like to think that sexually and emotionally I am quite well balanced enough to realise there was something wrong about it. It started to make me feel uncomfortable early on. I don't really want to be needed in that way. I expect a lot more from a relationship than awesome non-stop no holds barred sex. If your relationship is soley based on sex and its the one thing you miss, then the issue there is that the sex was the only intimacy you really had together, and you yourself confuse sex with love, emotion and intimacy

Wanting to be wanted THAT badly that someone would want to have crazy sex with you all the time is flattering no?

Not for me, but I can see it would be attractive to some people.
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2010, 04:52:26 PM »

I don't really have very nice experience of sex with someone with NPD/BPD as initially it was all porn star type which can be overwhelming, but it degenerated into degrading, extreme boundary pushing, cold, detatched self gratification/proving something to self about his virility, his strength, his power.

The sex was often great but his pushing of boundaries happened to me as well.  When I told him no, and even explained how I wouldn't enjoy doing certain things, it really upset him.  I tried a few things in college (which I made the mistake of sharing with him) but learned that I'm really not that into them.  He didn't seem to care.  He even put on the tears and the emotions to guilt me into it by telling me that it was "something special he wanted to share with me" and that he was upset that he would "never be able to share that kind of intimacy/experience with me."  Um, not everything done in a porno is "special."

He had very little respect for my feelings on the matter.  Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure he just wanted control.  It didn't take very long for me to get over the sex since I figured out it was mostly control-driven.

Feel for you here. It has really thrown me with intimacy.

He tried to get me to do all sorts. I once caved in and let him watch porn while we were having sex, but stopped him halfway through as I noticed he could not stop staring at the TV, was not interested in me at all.

He also tried to get me to ask my female friends to join us in the bedroom. He wanted us to swing, go dogging and when I said no to all these things, he would sulk and equate it to me not loving him. I felt like a sex object and it was horrible.
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grimalkin
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2010, 04:57:57 PM »

I don't really have very nice experience of sex with someone with NPD/BPD as initially it was all porn star type which can be overwhelming, but it degenerated into degrading, extreme boundary pushing, cold, detatched self gratification/proving something to self about his virility, his strength, his power.

The sex was often great but his pushing of boundaries happened to me as well.  When I told him no, and even explained how I wouldn't enjoy doing certain things, it really upset him.  I tried a few things in college (which I made the mistake of sharing with him) but learned that I'm really not that into them.  He didn't seem to care.  He even put on the tears and the emotions to guilt me into it by telling me that it was "something special he wanted to share with me" and that he was upset that he would "never be able to share that kind of intimacy/experience with me."  Um, not everything done in a porno is "special."

He had very little respect for my feelings on the matter.  Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure he just wanted control.  It didn't take very long for me to get over the sex since I figured out it was mostly control-driven.

I'm sorry you had that experience.  Disrespect in general is a horrible thing-- in bed it's unforgivable.


Grim
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GCD145
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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2010, 05:02:26 PM »

Just about as ludicrous as you feel my thoughts to be.  You can't speak for every last person on this board, now can you?  I don't think they'd appreciate it, either.

Grim

Who's being catty now?

You seem to have no trouble making broad generalizations, so I'm just following your lead.

However, I'll stand by my assertion.  Those of us who were in a relationship with a person with BPD, who didn't run at the first sign of trouble, or the tenth, or the millionth in some cases, have problems with intimacy.

To what else would you attribute such colossal and self-destructive failure of reason?

GCD145
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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2010, 05:09:21 PM »

Hmmm.  I only have a sample of 2, so I'm not sure I know the answer, but my BPDw, is only better than my first experience because she can consistently O.  Other than that, sex has to be just so or it ends up a disaster.  Lots of performance anxiety for me.  I would vote no on this.
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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2010, 05:18:20 PM »

I always say what I really feel.

And what I feel is that what you posted is flat out ludicrous.

The reason IMO people can't get past the sex with their pwBPD- assuming they were still having sex with that person, which is by no means universal- is because they themselves have serious issues with intimacy, typically arising from a lack of self-esteem or some other factor that makes them tend towards codependent behavior.  They confuse "crazy sex" with "good sex." The two are not the same.

Maybe try meeting some sane people, and give them a whirl.

GCD145

I disagree with you GCD. Please show me a component of "real" intimacy that was missing from my relationship? In hindsight, of course I see that it wasn't exactly "real" intimacy, because she was incapable of truly saying what she meant and meaning what she said - and furthermore, ever following through with any long term commitments + she was fundamentally broken as a person. However, during the relationship, I was closer to her than I have ever been to anyone else in my life. I know her inside out, her likes/dislikes, fears, worries, aspirations, dreams, etc etc etc. This is what makes BPD such a complicated illness. It is fake, yet real, dysfunctional, yet in a way, extremely functional. This is also why so many of us stay for as long as we did. If it really was always that bad, that clear, that jaded, we would have left long ago. But, there is always a glimpse of hope, always a fragment of what could be, and I am still under the opinion that much of the relationship is as real - even the intimacy part - as any other "normal" relationship. This is what truly makes being in a relationship with a borderline so heart-breaking.

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po·ten·tial  adj.
1. Capable of being but not yet in existence; latent: a potential greatness.
2. Having possibility, capability, or power.
3. The inherent ability or capacity for growth, development, or coming into being.
4. Something possessing the capacity for growth or development.
grimalkin
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2010, 05:19:22 PM »

Just about as ludicrous as you feel my thoughts to be.  You can't speak for every last person on this board, now can you?  I don't think they'd appreciate it, either.

Grim

Who's being catty now?

You seem to have no trouble making broad generalizations, so I'm just following your lead.

However, I'll stand by my assertion.  Those of us who were in a relationship with a person with BPD, who didn't run at the first sign of trouble, or the tenth, or the millionth in some cases, have problems with intimacy.

To what else would you attribute such colossal and self-destructive failure of reason?

GCD145

I attribute it to crazy people being better in bed, as in the title of my post.

I feel the need to make it clear that I am not really trying to make anyone feel bad, including yourself.  I was making the point that for a LOT of people on these boards, the sex was just awesome for them.  I don't think that was simply because we're all a bunch of pathetic losers who have never had a normal, loving relationship, or whatever.  I DO actually think that disordered people can make very good lovers BECAUSE they are disordered.  Inhibitions down, balls out glorious sex.

I made the title of this thread inflammatory on purpose because I wanted to know how others feel about the attraction that disordered people hold.  The sex is obviously an issue.  Why are they so good?  I don't think it can simply be attributed to the non-- otherwise any good sex would do the trick.  But sex with a disordered person, specifically BPs, seems to leave a lasting impression.  

I apologize for making you feel angry or bad with my posts.  It wasn't my intent.  Honestly I just can't get over how many threads are specifically about sex.  There is something sexy about crazy.  I was just approaching it dead on instead of meandering around specific cases or trying to deal with untangling someone's individual experience when so many of us seem to be having the same problem.

A hint of danger?  Again, a lack of inhibition?  Being "present" in the moment?  Emotional intensity?  Maybe their own completely messed up lack of boundaries?  All of the above?

Grim
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grimalkin
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« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2010, 05:20:35 PM »

I always say what I really feel.

And what I feel is that what you posted is flat out ludicrous.

The reason IMO people can't get past the sex with their pwBPD- assuming they were still having sex with that person, which is by no means universal- is because they themselves have serious issues with intimacy, typically arising from a lack of self-esteem or some other factor that makes them tend towards codependent behavior.  They confuse "crazy sex" with "good sex." The two are not the same.

Maybe try meeting some sane people, and give them a whirl.

GCD145

I disagree with you GCD. Please show me a component of "real" intimacy that was missing from my relationship? In hindsight, of course I see that it wasn't exactly "real" intimacy, because she was incapable of truly saying what she meant and meaning what she said - and furthermore, ever following through with any long term commitments + she was fundamentally broken as a person. However, during the relationship, I was closer to her than I have ever been to anyone else in my life. I know her inside out, her likes/dislikes, fears, worries, aspirations, dreams, etc etc etc. This is what makes BPD such a complicated illness. It is fake, yet real, dysfunctional, yet in a way, extremely functional. This is also why so many of us stay for as long as we did. If it really was always that bad, that clear, that jaded, we would have left long ago. But, there is always a glimpse of hope, always a fragment of what could be, and I am still under the opinion that much of the relationship is as real - even the intimacy part - as any other "normal" relationship. This is what truly makes being in a relationship with a borderline so heart-breaking.

This was my experience as well.  I never felt closer to anyone in my entire life.

Grim
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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 05:32:04 PM »

Having normal, non-sex to compare it to, I don't find the level of emotional intensity, lack of inhibitions, neediness, crazy and dysfunctional sexy or attractive. I think maybe for a while, I did then. Someone wanted me. They wanted to tell me everything and love me and show me how much I meant to them.

But for every single time ^happened, there were 3 times when they were too rough, too lazy to pleasure me, wanted sex instead of affection, wanted sex after saying cruel things, didn't listen to what I wanted, it was all about them and their feelings. Feeling neglected and unloved when I was tired and just wanted to cuddle and talk. 

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grimalkin
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« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 05:36:53 PM »

Having normal, non-sex to compare it to, I don't find the level of emotional intensity, lack of inhibitions, neediness, crazy and dysfunctional sexy or attractive. I think maybe for a while, I did then. Someone wanted me. They wanted to tell me everything and love me and show me how much I meant to them.

But for every single time ^happened, there were 3 times when they were too rough, too lazy to pleasure me, wanted sex instead of affection, wanted sex after saying cruel things, didn't listen to what I wanted, it was all about them and their feelings. Feeling neglected and unloved when I was tired and just wanted to cuddle and talk. 

See, now that's just wrong.  Was this person NPD as well?

I'm open to being proven wrong.  Keep 'em coming.

Grim
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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 05:37:51 PM »

I don't know if crazy people are better in bed... .but I do know that my stbxBPDw was the best sex I ever had.  And from what I have been reading since joining this site is that seems to be the general concensus with a few exceptions.

Maybe it's because during sex they feel totally accepted... .maybe it is a form of control... .maybe it is the feeling of euphoria that allows the pain to go away... .or maybe it's something much deeper that we may never understand... .but my personal impression is that they tend to be much less inhibited.  From a guy's perspective, oral sex is always a bonus... .but my pwBPD was always willing to provide.  Multiple sex sessions was the standard/norm rather than the expcetion... .and sexting and all the allure... .all good.  These pwBPD refine sexiness to an art form and know exactly what makes their mate tick.  They can drive their lover wild with excitement and know just how to tease them.

Are crazy people better in bed... .mine was.

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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 05:38:11 PM »

Define crazy.

Then define "better" in bed. Smiling (click to insert in post)

I think it's a broad statement to say that if someone is crazy, they are better in bed. Or the contrast, if you are good in bed, you must be crazy.

Someone who presents themself as confident with their body and sexuality is in close proximity to someone who could perhaps instead had their boundaries shattered and is coping with a some sort of sexual addiction.  Porn stars are a good example of such a thing.

For me personally, I had to tackle my own issues in therapy to ever realize what it is that made me crave connections in certain aspects to men(which included sexually).  I don't think it's always about "them", their skills in the sack or lack thereof.  It has so much more to do with "us" and why we feel compelled to be connected to people who seem to be emotionally unavailable.

I also am married to a non who was once married to a pwBPD and I don't think it's fair to compare.  I think it's like comparing being sober to having a drug habit.  Being in a sexual relationship with a pwBPD may have that uncomparable "high"... .but the crash is hardly worth it.  Being in a committed give and take relationship, which includes the sexual aspect of it, is far more healthier for you in the long run.

Just my opinion of course. Smiling (click to insert in post)

~DG
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« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2010, 05:44:06 PM »

I dunno, I think it has a lot to do with the nature of borderline personality disorder opening themselves up immediately and indiscriminately. A lot of us have described finding our "soul-mates" or someone who "gets-us" as our first impressions of our SOwBPD. Great sex, not describing the emotionless uninhibited porn-star sex, but referring to the extreme passionate, intimate and blissful sex that I experienced with my exBPDgf, is only achieved when two people completely let go. A lot of you may disagree and say borderlines never "truly" love or "truly" let go, that it is just manipulation, but I whole-heartedly disagree. For the time being, the borderline IS madly in love with you, walls down and vulnerable. It is this feeling that eventually gets them to wall up again, because they FEAR closeness and intimacy. The reason why they end up hating us and distrusting us so much is that we have penetrated that wall that they feel keeps them safe. It is a catch 22. They crave intimacy, yet intimacy is what ultimately dysregulates them... .this doesn't mean that it never existed.

I think that a lot of us who are disengaging from the BPD relationship tend to want to turn the relationship into one giant scheme of manipulation and deception. There is nothing wrong with this, but after reflecting back and seeing the relationship for what it was, both good and bad, I am confidant that she, my BPDexgf, did at one point hold those intimate feelings and truly want the relationship to succeed. However, like I said, damned if you do, damned if you don't, because until a borderline can get past the suffocating feeling of being vulnerable, intimacy will be their undoing.

If BPDs solely just used us, they would have been far more manipulative and would never have bit the hand that feeds as hard and often as they did.
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po·ten·tial  adj.
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« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2010, 05:50:55 PM »

Having normal, non-sex to compare it to, I don't find the level of emotional intensity, lack of inhibitions, neediness, crazy and dysfunctional sexy or attractive. I think maybe for a while, I did then. Someone wanted me. They wanted to tell me everything and love me and show me how much I meant to them.

But for every single time ^happened, there were 3 times when they were too rough, too lazy to pleasure me, wanted sex instead of affection, wanted sex after saying cruel things, didn't listen to what I wanted, it was all about them and their feelings. Feeling neglected and unloved when I was tired and just wanted to cuddle and talk. 

See, now that's just wrong.  Was this person NPD as well?

I'm open to being proven wrong.  Keep 'em coming.

Grim

yeah NPD. Oh the things I could tell you about him  ;p  

I then 6 months after that ended met someone who I am sure has BPD and is a waif.

Sex with him was completely different but needy, insecure, overwhelming for me - too much intensity for me was a shock and so sudden. It wasn't bad and he didn't make me feel awful or degraded in any way. I believe he really did love me and was being truely intimate with me. He didn't really use it as control either but as he got more dysregulated obviously I found him and the sex less attractive.

It is easier for me to demonise exno1 and his NPD ways than it is ex2, because I feel ex2 was much more genuine. I just don't miss it and it isn't what I would like to experience again.   
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« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2010, 05:53:22 PM »

I dunno, I think it has a lot to do with the nature of borderline personality disorder opening themselves up immediately and indiscriminately. A lot of us have described finding our "soul-mates" or someone who "gets-us" as our first impressions of our SOwBPD. Great sex, not describing the emotionless uninhibited porn-star sex, but referring to the extreme passionate, intimate and blissful sex that I experienced with my exBPDgf, is only achieved when two people completely let go. A lot of you may disagree and say borderlines never "truly" love or "truly" let go, that it is just manipulation, but I whole-heartedly disagree. For the time being, the borderline IS madly in love with you, walls down and vulnerable. It is this feeling that eventually gets them to wall up again, because they FEAR closeness and intimacy. The reason why they end up hating us and distrusting us so much is that we have penetrated that wall that they feel keeps them safe. It is a catch 22. They crave intimacy, yet intimacy is what ultimately dysregulates them... .this doesn't mean that it never existed.

I think that a lot of us who are disengaging from the BPD relationship tend to want to turn the relationship into one giant scheme of manipulation and deception. There is nothing wrong with this, but after reflecting back and seeing the relationship for what it was, both good and bad, I am confidant that she, my BPDexgf, did at one point hold those intimate feelings and truly want the relationship to succeed. However, like I said, damned if you do, damned if you don't, because until a borderline can get past the suffocating feeling of being vulnerable, intimacy will be their undoing.

If BPDs solely just used us, they would have been far more manipulative and would never have bit the hand that feeds as hard and often as they did.

Thank you.  I'm also in the camp that their feelings were real, intense and totally consuming.  It's the fear of those emotions that makes them do what they do that hurts us.

Grim
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« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2010, 05:57:58 PM »

Excerpt
my own idea of terrific sex might just have to involve two crazy people.



I've always loved the term "bat___ crazy," but for now, let's just agree to leave crazy out of the equation and use "incentive for dysfunction" instead.

What you are really considering here is Need, not sex drive. So, the question should be, “Does using sex as a valuation make sex better in the minds of those being judged on their value? Of course it does, otherwise the behavior wouldn’t be worthwhile to that person. You’ve got to follow the need and find the reward here and it delves deeply into the fundamentals of ego psychology.

The sex drive was an important motivation in early Freudian psychoanalysis. Freud's drive theory referred to people’s basic instincts that moved them toward clear objects.  Seems simple enough, right? It wasn't until later, that Ego Psychologists brought in *incentive.*

Later theorists began to challenge drive theory because of the obvious secondary drives that were aroused by incentive. For example, why would a human being explore outside of their primary relationship for sex, when their primary drive could be satisfied at home? What would be the incentive? BTW, Primary drives are innate drives (e.g. thirst, hunger, and sex), whereas secondary drives very likely are learned by conditioning.

Secondary drives were far more interesting to Psychoanalytic Ego Psychologists because they involved self concepts rather than basic drives.  Ego Psychologists are the people who say things that make you go, hmmmmm because their research is based on a person’s awareness of their self; i.e. the ego (and they don’t pull punches.)

They determined that one of the ego’s major tasks is to develop and maintain a sense of personal identity.  When that personal identity is used as an incentive for a drive- it generally is transformed out of a way to combat unthinkable anxiety to the ego.  Unthinkable anxiety is anything to do with falling to pieces, failing, having no relationship to the body, having no motivation, no incentive, no BEING- perhaps due to complete isolation or inadequate communication.

When this merging of unthinkable anxiety and sex drive occurs, it is based on incentive. The incentive is to offset anxiety with the merging of two bodies. The ego feels better because of mirroring received and the act of sex is then used as a confirmation of admiration, for the specialness and greatness that is not felt alone.

Now we have a basic drive that involves a secondary incentive to that drive. (The incentive is the need to feel better about ourselves.) Follow the reward. Find the Need. Easy to become an addictive compulsion that is a vicious cycle. Easy to become more anxiety than before we used sex to stop the anxiety.  This is Borderline personality disorder.  

Despairing, hopeless, distraught and clutching at straws to feel a sense of purpose in life. Some ego psychologists determine the behavior as a task, i.e., prostitution of sorts for valuation, not money.

Drive theory states that due to the unpredictable nature of people, a person performing a task rarely knows for certain what the other person is going to do in response. Therefore, there is a clear state of alert arousal. Increased arousal (stress) can therefore be seen as an instinctive reaction to the drive.

This arousal creates a "drive" that causes us to enact the behaviors that form our dominant response to that particular situation. Those behaviors have been conditioned from childhood. Our dominant response is the most likely response given our skill.

Two Borderlines together during sex fight for control of who is more valued. This is called “the audience effect.” The audience effect notes that in some cases the presence of a passive audience will facilitate the better performance of a task; while in other cases the presence of an audience will inhibit the performance of a task.

Generally, Borderlines find Narcissists less stressful (a better audience) because the Narcissist has no recognition of the Borderline as an external agent of satisfaction. He believes that his bodily fulfillment stems from his own perfection and power. Two Borderlines however, fight with each other over domination at first and then submission later and the result is VALUATION.

So you can see that Borderline behavior is based on sex being a valuation tool for the ego. To not have valuation accomplished by sex increases the need for valuation elsewhere (with other people) to offset the reminder of constant, unthinkable anxiety.  In order to offset the unthinkable anxiety the new situation and the new rewarding object must induce a stress response which will then be interpreted as:

* novel, and/or

* unpredictable, and/or

* not controllable by the individual, and/or

* in the presence of a social evaluative threat.

You can see where this is headed. Why do Borderlines cheat? The bottom line is that this is not about a basic drive for sex. It is about valuation. Valuation of sex concerning mirrored reward and *needing sex to feel valued* about themselves.

(BTW, Nowhere in my post is intimacy even mentioned.)  Idea

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« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2010, 06:11:47 PM »

2010, thank you for another great post.

So I'm still at a bit of a loss as to what happened during my own relationship-- bat**** would have been a good word for both of us by the end of it.  He's BP and the relationship brought out latent BP tendencies in myself that I thought I'd long since gotten over.  So, we were first battling for control, then submission?  I don't get it.  Battling for valuation?  Who's the most pathetic?  that almost sounds about right, I hate to say.

Grim
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« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2010, 06:12:39 PM »

I feel the need to make it clear that I am not really trying to make anyone feel bad, including yourself.  

I apologize for making you feel angry or bad with my posts.  

Grim

You didn't make me feel bad.  I am now having the best sex of my life with a completely normal person, and I can assure you that there is no conceivable way that anything you have experienced COULD POSSIBLY be better.

What you posted originally was STUPID.

GCD145
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« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2010, 06:16:36 PM »

I disagree with you GCD. Please show me a component of "real" intimacy that was missing from my relationship? In hindsight, of course I see that it wasn't exactly "real" intimacy, because she was incapable of truly saying what she meant and meaning what she said - and furthermore, ever following through with any long term commitments + she was fundamentally broken as a person. However, during the relationship, I was closer to her than I have ever been to anyone else in my life. I know her inside out, her likes/dislikes, fears, worries, aspirations, dreams, etc etc etc. This is what makes BPD such a complicated illness. It is fake, yet real, dysfunctional, yet in a way, extremely functional. This is also why so many of us stay for as long as we did. If it really was always that bad, that clear, that jaded, we would have left long ago. But, there is always a glimpse of hope, always a fragment of what could be, and I am still under the opinion that much of the relationship is as real - even the intimacy part - as any other "normal" relationship. This is what truly makes being in a relationship with a borderline so heart-breaking.

Seriously?  Did you post something that can be paraphrased as "show you one facet of real intimacy that was missing from your relationship with a broken person who is incapable of real intimacy?"  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

GCD145

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« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2010, 06:25:13 PM »

I feel the need to make it clear that I am not really trying to make anyone feel bad, including yourself.  

I apologize for making you feel angry or bad with my posts.  

Grim

You didn't make me feel bad.  I am now having the best sex of my life with a completely normal person, and I can assure you that there is no conceivable way that anything you have experienced COULD POSSIBLY be better.

What you posted originally was STUPID.

GCD145

What you've posted in response to me has been RUDE and highly PERSONAL.  If you didn't like the original post, why didn't you ignore it?  Why insult me?  I never attacked you.  What's your deal?  Now you insult my sex life?  What the h***?

Just go away.  We're trying to have a serious discussion here.  If you've got nothing to say that adds to it just stop posting    

Grim
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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2010, 06:26:34 PM »

I disagree with you GCD. Please show me a component of "real" intimacy that was missing from my relationship? In hindsight, of course I see that it wasn't exactly "real" intimacy, because she was incapable of truly saying what she meant and meaning what she said - and furthermore, ever following through with any long term commitments + she was fundamentally broken as a person. However, during the relationship, I was closer to her than I have ever been to anyone else in my life. I know her inside out, her likes/dislikes, fears, worries, aspirations, dreams, etc etc etc. This is what makes BPD such a complicated illness. It is fake, yet real, dysfunctional, yet in a way, extremely functional. This is also why so many of us stay for as long as we did. If it really was always that bad, that clear, that jaded, we would have left long ago. But, there is always a glimpse of hope, always a fragment of what could be, and I am still under the opinion that much of the relationship is as real - even the intimacy part - as any other "normal" relationship. This is what truly makes being in a relationship with a borderline so heart-breaking.

Seriously?  Did you post something that can be paraphrased as "show you one facet of real intimacy that was missing from your relationship with a broken person who is incapable of real intimacy?"  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

GCD145

Again with the rude disregard of others' feelings.  You really need to stop.

Grim
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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2010, 06:31:12 PM »

I disagree with you GCD. Please show me a component of "real" intimacy that was missing from my relationship? In hindsight, of course I see that it wasn't exactly "real" intimacy, because she was incapable of truly saying what she meant and meaning what she said - and furthermore, ever following through with any long term commitments + she was fundamentally broken as a person. However, during the relationship, I was closer to her than I have ever been to anyone else in my life. I know her inside out, her likes/dislikes, fears, worries, aspirations, dreams, etc etc etc. This is what makes BPD such a complicated illness. It is fake, yet real, dysfunctional, yet in a way, extremely functional. This is also why so many of us stay for as long as we did. If it really was

Seriously?  Did you post something that can be paraphrased as "show you one facet of real intimacy that was missing from your relationship with a broken person who is incapable of real intimacy?"  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

GCD145

I just reported you to a moderator.  We are supposed to respect each other on these boards.  I don't understand your need for personal insults and mockery.  Please stop.

Grim
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« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2010, 07:34:01 PM »

Staff only

Thread is locked for staff review. Thank you for your patience.

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« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2010, 08:32:21 AM »

Staff only

This thread is now unlocked. Members are asked to be mindful of our guidelines, including this one on advising and supporting others:

Advising and Supporting Others:  Members shall offer only compassionate, well founded, fact based advice. While it is anticipated that most members have little or no formal training in therapy, members are expected to read and have some reasonable foundation before giving advice to others. Collectively the membership is here to learn and grow as a group and it is important that we not recycle or reinforce incorrect or unhealthy ideas.

Members should offer advice as peer opinions targeted directly to the host of the thread. Members shall be patient and understanding of other members that are in different stages of the learning or healing process.

Members critiquing, or challenging the advise of others should offer their comments in a respectful, positive and constructive manner. Members should respect and embrace the opinions of others, not deride them, and recognize diversity is an important part of the learning process. Forum is the exchange of ideas, not a debate or an argument to be won. Our common interests and goals are what brings us together - let it not be what comes between us.


Thank you.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2010, 08:48:10 AM »

Nicely put B&W.
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« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2010, 08:59:20 AM »

From the moment you meet these people, they're warping your mind and you just don't know it! If you are attracted to these people, then you probably have a codependency. After the luring stage with me, sex wasn't the same. You want it to be, that's all you really want anymore from them. Ad im disengaging, sure i think about it, but thats the catch. How come i dont miss the love,affection,companionship,caring and trust we had? There was none of that! Emotional and mental slave!  Thats what i was, not a partner, boyfriend, companion or even a friend. Used and manipulated from minute one. Its gotta be all about us now, and let the thoughts of this great sex go. Porn lust, you had it, and you have the scars to prove it! Hopefully no diseases from them. No shame in their game! At what cost? Let go of the want, don't personalize the relationship. It was what it was, mind and emotional destruction for someone elses pleasure. Not yours! My ex BPDgf always tried to keep the covers over us, twitched all night in her sleep. Any chance that those could be signs of sexual abuse as a child?  I am in the belief that one of her mothers boyfriends snuck in on her while she was sleeping. She moved out of her moms house and in with a friend when she was 17. She claims that she was just rebelling as all kids do.  That doesn't sound like normal childhood to me!
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« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2010, 09:08:06 AM »

Grim, of course the sex seems great when you feel like Superman. But, it's a con job. Sooner or later it becomes all about them and what you can do for their pleasure. They have established their role as the taker.

I've had normal girlfriends who's desire was to make sure I was satisfied as much as I wanted them to be. It was fun, exciting, and MUCH better than what I have with my uBPDw, even at the beginning.
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« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2010, 09:20:46 AM »

Mine was most certainly NOT a superstar in bed... .It was fine to say the least, sometimes awesome but most of the time "just OK" He always wanted me to say he was the "best" I ever had. I would never say that because I thought it was unfair to do comparisons. It was like he strived to do everything sexual like a pro but it I knew he was doing stuff because he thought I would like it, not because we were making love and pleasing each other. Eventually, he used our sex life as a platform to attack me. Would say things like my belly was in the way (I'm a normal weight and I'm really tall) I was to loose for him to feel, my technique was terrible; he got more pleasure from a $20 hooker. By then, of course, I was so paranoid; I didn't want to be sexual with him at all. He would masturbate to porn and then come to bed and take forever to finish, but it was because I was a terrible lover. The hang ups were numerous for me by then. The man I am seeing now really got a sexual scaredy cat. He was so kind and we worked through some stuff, NOW the sex is awesome, he is awesome in bed... It’s true giving and receiving of pleasure.  I still get stabs of insecurity about sex but It SOO much better. My ex really did a number on me…
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« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2010, 09:34:51 AM »

I dunno... .how many partners do we have to have before we can generalize that one segment of the population is better? 

Again, we must have missed that great sex boat, cause it was a study in mediocrity here, but I think I could certainly safely toss out the crazy moniker for what went down here in the past year. 

To me, love/intimacy/sex are inseparable.  Each component contributes to the experience.  In the initial, (all too short and encumbered by distance) time with my exbf, the intimacy/sex we did share was good physically and very meaningful to me.  Was it over the top porn star sex?  Absolutely not.  Did I care?  Absolutely not.  I wanted the loving, intimate, sexual connection with him and I had it.  Were we enjoying ourselves and happy?  Absolutely.  Never heard any complaints, and usually one can "tell". 

Honesty, define better in bed?  Define great sex?  I think everyone has differing ideas on what trips their trigger anyway. 

Personally, my ideal of great sex is the mutual passionate and loving enjoyment of each other in a safe, sane, caring, stable, loving relationship.  Now *that* rocks my world.   

I don't want crazy.  It frightens and repulses me.   

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« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2010, 09:48:48 AM »

There were some technical aspects of the sex with my ex that were very good, but there was an insincerity and weird need to it. Not a passionate one, more of a self affirming need. There was little or no intimacy.

I recall saying I love you during sex several times, and when she'd say it back it wouldn't be anything like the passionate sounds she was making. It was like she put the sex on pause for a moment, gave me my line back, then went right back into it. I stopped saying it after a while.

I think there was a real schism there between what she and I wanted. I wanted an even playing field, where she got as much as she gave, as much as possible. She seemed to want to make me happy, and therefore give her validation, and her pleasure was sort of separate from that. Alternately she longed for more painful and submissive roles. I have done this sort of thing before, and I think the play aspect of it is fun, but with her it all seemed so pushy and desperate and passionless. She'd ask for something kinky in the same way she'd ask to see some a movie she liked.

I honestly had more trouble with keeping an erection with her than anyone else until I jumped head first into denial about it. She was gorgeous, willing to do anything at all to please, indulged me in my own likes and fantasies, but there was always something behind it all that I distrusted. Artificial.

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« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2010, 09:56:57 AM »

Hey Grim, 

I wanna stick directly to the topic header.  In my experience... .YES!  That is a general statement and there are exceptions to every side of this conversation,  but yeah all of them were really good from a strictly SEX staNPDoint.  Some of them sucked at intimacy,  some sucked at communicating needs,  I sucked at some of it... .whatever... .was the sex with them some of the best i've had... .you bet. 

Was a lot of it driven by need?  Probably.  Was a lot of it mirroring and stuff like that?  Yeah.  But you said crazy people are better in bed... .i say YES! 

I've been with some healthy girls too.   Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)   That sounds funny to me when i type it like that.  And they were awesome too.  I think a lot of the good or not idea comes from our own expectations. 

To be quite honest,  I was pretty self conscious about myself growing up so when I actually had sex... .WHOO HOO!  I don't even know if it was good or not,  but I didn't have expectations so it was AWESOME!

But... .I can see where in the beginning most were trying to feel desired and valid and once they felt secure in that regard,  sht changed.   

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« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2010, 12:05:13 PM »

Hey Grim, 

I wanna stick directly to the topic header.  In my experience... .YES!  That is a general statement and there are exceptions to every side of this conversation,  but yeah all of them were really good from a strictly SEX staNPDoint.  Some of them sucked at intimacy,  some sucked at communicating needs,  I sucked at some of it... .whatever... .was the sex with them some of the best i've had... .you bet. 

Was a lot of it driven by need?  Probably.  Was a lot of it mirroring and stuff like that?  Yeah.  But you said crazy people are better in bed... .i say YES! 

I've been with some healthy girls too.   Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)   That sounds funny to me when i type it like that.  And they were awesome too.  I think a lot of the good or not idea comes from our own expectations. 

To be quite honest,  I was pretty self conscious about myself growing up so when I actually had sex... .WHOO HOO!  I don't even know if it was good or not,  but I didn't have expectations so it was AWESOME!

But... .I can see where in the beginning most were trying to feel desired and valid and once they felt secure in that regard,  sht changed.   

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Thanks for the direct answer   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

The title and original header of this thread was supposed to be slightly tongue in cheek, so to speak.  I still meant it-- as I explained in my first two posts, the best sex I've ever had has been with disordered people, and I freely admit that I'm mood disordered myself and used to be BP, so however that works-- I might have just have had to have someone I could relate to, I don't know.  Basically I was trying to get the ball rolling on examining the allure of crazy people.  They do have something about them.  Bipolar women, for instance, tend to act out sexually when manic (not down to a person, but it's a tendency across the bipolar female population).

I'd also like to add that not all crazies are sadistic ***holes.  Many of them are quite pleasant, especially if they're on their meds and/or in therapy.  I meant to include them in the survey as well.

Grim

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« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2010, 12:34:40 PM »

I would have to say Yes and No.

Yes, in the beginning it was superb.  No holds barred anything goes all the time, never had a woman wear me out before.  But it was her intenisty of the moment that got me the most.  I am one of those people that need an emotional connection for sex to be really good and she gave the illusion that she loved me.

But after awhile, about the time she began cheating, it was just going through the motions.  She kept asking me "where are you?"  Which is funny because that is what i wanted to ask her but i knew where her mind really was. 

One of the most painful things she said to me was that she just kept me around because i could get her off.  It was probably the only truthful things as well.  She told me once that she used to have difficulty reaching climax before getting with me.  And she used to take care of me in the bedroom as well, used to.

But, in the end, NO.  Who wants to do everything to please a crazy partner in bed when she didn't care about pleasing you in return?
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« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2010, 12:39:09 PM »

Grim, of course the sex seems great when you feel like Superman. But, it's a con job. Sooner or later it becomes all about them and what you can do for their pleasure. They have established their role as the taker.

I've had normal girlfriends who's desire was to make sure I was satisfied as much as I wanted them to be. It was fun, exciting, and MUCH better than what I have with my uBPDw, even at the beginning.

Well, my exBP never got to the point of taking more than he gave.  It would have been easier to leave if he had.  I freely admit the sex, although it became less frequent and more vanilla with time, was still awesome when I left, and that HURT big time for months.  Serious withdrawals.

I don't understand this idea that I must have problems with intimacy because I enjoyed sex with a pwBPD.  I have no problems with intimacy.  I was codependent, which is what was unfortunately called for to make our relationship work at all, dysfunctional as THAT was, but problems with intimacy?  No way.

Grim
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« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2010, 12:41:26 PM »

I generally don't like to go into this, but I've found the opposite to be true.  Even if the crazy ones are good in the beginning, it turns into fewer and fewer opportunities to getting into bed.  I compare to the non-crazy relationships I've had.  The in bed part got better and better and better.  True love making.   You may ask why I am here?  I was young, foolish and we were a continent apart.  I foolish thought what I had found was easy to find again.  She did too.
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« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2010, 12:43:03 PM »

I would have to say Yes and No.

Yes, in the beginning it was superb.  No holds barred anything goes all the time, never had a woman wear me out before.  But it was her intenisty of the moment that got me the most.  I am one of those people that need an emotional connection for sex to be really good and she gave the illusion that she loved me.

But after awhile, about the time she began cheating, it was just going through the motions.  She kept asking me "where are you?"  Which is funny because that is what i wanted to ask her but i knew where her mind really was. 

One of the most painful things she said to me was that she just kept me around because i could get her off.  It was probably the only truthful things as well.  She told me once that she used to have difficulty reaching climax before getting with me.  And she used to take care of me in the bedroom as well, used to.

But, in the end, NO.  Who wants to do everything to please a crazy partner in bed when she didn't care about pleasing you in return?

Geez, what a horrible thing to say.  I'm so sorry.  She wasn't just crazy, she was a b****.  Not all crazies are like that.  Sorry you got a bad one.

Grim
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« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2010, 12:45:10 PM »

I generally don't like to go into this, but I've found the opposite to be true.  Even if the crazy ones are good in the beginning, it turns into fewer and fewer opportunities to getting into bed.  I compare to the non-crazy relationships I've had.  The in bed part got better and better and better.  True love making.   You may ask why I am here?  I was young, foolish and we were a continent apart.  I foolish thought what I had found was easy to find again.  She did too.

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« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2010, 12:53:29 PM »

Truly, the best I ever had was probably the least crazy of all... .and he was amazing because he truly cared and was truly loving.  Like HDN said... .true lovemaking. 
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« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2010, 01:00:35 PM »

That's what we are all looking for... .amongst many other qualities... .
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« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2010, 01:05:56 PM »

How about the other side of the coin?

Most of the people around here who get involved with pwBPD seem to be caring, attentive, passionate people. What if a lot of the draw of the sex is an extension of mirroring? Nothing can be mirrored perfectly, and I'm sure that some of them are better than others at it, but from the perspective of how their "personalties" are built (amalgamations of scraps of other people's traits) perhaps this is how their sexual life goes as well.

They often mirror and idealize every other good aspect of who we are, why not this too? Sex would become some sort of extension of masturbation, with them throwing back at you all of the things that you want to be and aim for in bed.

This particular part of things was wrought with pitfalls for my ex, as she had suffered sexual abuse. Her ideas of what I needed weren't quite right, but it worked with other men. I've spent too much time with women who have suffered sexual abuse to go blindly into that particular forest. It may have made me more sensitive to certain aspects that are overlooked when most people are just enjoying themselves.
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« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2010, 01:07:38 PM »

Truly, the best I ever had was probably the least crazy of all... .and he was amazing because he truly cared and was truly loving.  Like HDN said... .true lovemaking. 

What happened to him?  None of my business and you don't have to answer that.

Grim
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« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2010, 01:14:21 PM »

How about the other side of the coin?

Most of the people around here who get involved with pwBPD seem to be caring, attentive, passionate people. What if a lot of the draw of the sex is an extension of mirroring? Nothing can be mirrored perfectly, and I'm sure that some of them are better than others at it, but from the perspective of how their "personalties" are built (amalgamations of scraps of other people's traits) perhaps this is how their sexual life goes as well.

They often mirror and idealize every other good aspect of who we are, why not this too? Sex would become some sort of extension of masturbation, with them throwing back at you all of the things that you want to be and aim for in bed.

This particular part of things was wrought with pitfalls for my ex, as she had suffered sexual abuse. Her ideas of what I needed weren't quite right, but it worked with other men. I've spent too much time with women who have suffered sexual abuse to go blindly into that particular forest. It may have made me more sensitive to certain aspects that are overlooked when most people are just enjoying themselves.

Good point.  BPD IS about becoming you, basically.  I remember my exBP telling me I was the first person he'd ever been with that he could totally just be himself with-- that he finally felt like he wasn't putting on an act.  Confusing.  Maybe he really felt that way in the beginning, or at least thought he did.  Of course as the relationship progressed he regressed back to more of a selfish, self-absorbed and angry weirdo.  AGH!  Such a total mind****!  Who the h*** WAS this guy?

Grim
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« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2010, 01:25:48 PM »

Grim, mine said the same.  To be honest the the real her might be that sad, desolate, empty thing she was when she was on one of her many downs.  How I ache for that sad, lonely girl whom i tried to rescue.  She was so nice to me when i would cheer her up.  

But the her abusive, cheating, lying self revealed itself.  It is my opinion that the sad girl act was tailor made to trigger the rescuer in me.  Boy, did she know her prey.
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« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2010, 01:36:52 PM »

I'm surprised there aren't more people weighing in with an affirmation to my original thread header.  There are always, always threads going concerning how much people are missing sex with their BP partners-- how they were the best they ever had, etc.  Mine certainly was, and it's because he's an utter nutter.

Grim
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« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2010, 01:41:34 PM »

I'm surprised there aren't more people weighing in with an affirmation to my original thread header.  There are always, always threads going concerning how much people are missing sex with their BP partners-- how they were the best they ever had, etc.  Mine certainly was, and it's because he's an utter nutter.

Grim

I think sex is always an unusual issue in BPD.  Mine isn't good at it, but she gets tons of validation if it happens.  So, it is very important to her (almost more than anything else), she just isn't skilled.  Maybe it is her NPD that just expects I will do all the work and she shouldn't have to.
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« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2010, 01:49:20 PM »

Truly, the best I ever had was probably the least crazy of all... .and he was amazing because he truly cared and was truly loving.  Like HDN said... .true lovemaking. 

What happened to him?  None of my business and you don't have to answer that.

Grim

He lived 3K miles away and had small children.  My children were on the verge of adulthood.  Neither of us would/could leave our kids, and the kids wouldn't or couldn't come with.  We either left our kids or left each other.  The kids won... .

I guess it's a credit to us that we made it 4.5 years in a long distance relationship. 
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« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2010, 01:57:41 PM »

Truly, the best I ever had was probably the least crazy of all... .and he was amazing because he truly cared and was truly loving.  Like HDN said... .true lovemaking. 

What happened to him?  None of my business and you don't have to answer that.

Grim

He lived 3K miles away and had small children.  My children were on the verge of adulthood.  Neither of us would/could leave our kids, and the kids wouldn't or couldn't come with.  We either left our kids or left each other.  The kids won... .

I guess it's a credit to us that we made it 4.5 years in a long distance relationship. 

I'm sorry.  What a horrible choice to have to make.

Grim
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« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2010, 01:59:43 PM »

Truly, the best I ever had was probably the least crazy of all... .and he was amazing because he truly cared and was truly loving.  Like HDN said... .true lovemaking.  

What happened to him?  None of my business and you don't have to answer that.

Grim

He lived 3K miles away and had small children.  My children were on the verge of adulthood.  Neither of us would/could leave our kids, and the kids wouldn't or couldn't come with.  We either left our kids or left each other.  The kids won... .

I guess it's a credit to us that we made it 4.5 years in a long distance relationship.  

I'm sorry.  What a horrible choice to have to make.

Grim

Yep.  And my mother was sinking into Alzheimer's.  I couldn't leave her either.  It was a no win... .people often don't realize what they're getting into with a distance relationship.  Either one of you is going to move, or it's just a matter of time... .

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« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2010, 02:07:36 PM »

Truly, the best I ever had was probably the least crazy of all... .and he was amazing because he truly cared and was truly loving.  Like HDN said... .true lovemaking.  

What happened to him?  None of my business and you don't have to answer that.

Grim

He lived 3K miles away and had small children.  My children were on the verge of adulthood.  Neither of us would/could leave our kids, and the kids wouldn't or couldn't come with.  We either left our kids or left each other.  The kids won... .

I guess it's a credit to us that we made it 4.5 years in a long distance relationship.  

I'm sorry.  What a horrible choice to have to make.

Grim

Yep.  And my mother was sinking into Alzheimer's.  I couldn't leave her either.  It was a no win... .people often don't realize what they're getting into with a distance relationship.  Either one of you is going to move, or it's just a matter of time... .

If it was meant to be, is there any chance you could make it work in the future?

Grim
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« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2010, 02:11:06 PM »

Truly, the best I ever had was probably the least crazy of all... .and he was amazing because he truly cared and was truly loving.  Like HDN said... .true lovemaking.  

What happened to him?  None of my business and you don't have to answer that.

Grim

He lived 3K miles away and had small children.  My children were on the verge of adulthood.  Neither of us would/could leave our kids, and the kids wouldn't or couldn't come with.  We either left our kids or left each other.  The kids won... .

I guess it's a credit to us that we made it 4.5 years in a long distance relationship.  

I'm sorry.  What a horrible choice to have to make.

Grim

Yep.  And my mother was sinking into Alzheimer's.  I couldn't leave her either.  It was a no win... .people often don't realize what they're getting into with a distance relationship.  Either one of you is going to move, or it's just a matter of time... .

If it was meant to be, is there any chance you could make it work in the future?

Grim

Nope.  He reached the end of his rope.  By the time the end came, it was a meltdown of frustration and pain.  It's 3 years past, he's moved on.  Seemed we both did. 

Had a call from his mom a few months ago.   She said she missed me and would always love me. 

Hard as it was, it was the right thing.  We would have been torn apart with one loss or the other.  My sister is far from her kids (they're adults) and cries for them daily.  I hear her pain and I know that for whatever reason, it just wasn't meant to be... .
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« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2010, 02:12:04 PM »

I think there are good reasons for why some of what crazy brings to the table also results in what many would consider good sex.  But as mentioned previously, physically it might be fun/exciting/uninhibited/dynamic/etc - it often doesn't include true lasting intimacy in other ways.  You CAN get both from a non-crazy person - it just so happens that most of us have responsibilities, fears, insecurities, not such a strong desire to be the best ever in bed to hook someone, etc - that we can't suddenly shut off (or turn on as is the case in the last one) to be this amazing sex dynamo.  There's also the mirroring (as previously mentioned), probably ego stroking (among other things!), etc, etc - all of which doesn't last.  But many of the same end-results can be developed/created/built-over-time in a good healthy relationship.

I've been with about 10 people.  Two of them were disordered.  The first of this second group was my best to that point - but it was only because it physically felt the best and she was willing to do/try anything (and did a lot of initiating at first along those lines - whereas most other women I've been with were more passive - probably partly because we were younger) - mostly I was just a warm body she could use to gain her pleasure.  The next "crazy one" had some elements of coolness/fun/excitement/unique stuff - but it certainly wasn't that great overall - and I was very uncomfortable with her demeanor at times - it was sometimes childlike or desperate or needy or ... . [shudder]   - fortunately that didn't last long (by my own choice).  My last partner (not crazy) is by far the best ever - and it just keeps getting better and better.  Finally, I'm not crazy and several of my partners have said that I was their best ever (even the first disordered one, which seem to bother her to no end because she didn't have the power/control in that area she wanted).

It really depends on what's important to you, your associations (previous and current), what you like and don't like, etc.  IMO, crazy people aren't necessarily any better or worse at any one specific thing (as a group) - just different.

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« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2010, 02:27:54 PM »

I dunno... .seems to me you'd have to be with scads of people before you could paint with a big broad brush.  

From the few I've been with I couldn't say either way and I just think everyone's different.  Plenty of "normal" folks have a tiger in the tank (I do and I sure hope I'm at least semi normal), and plenty of nutters are probably a real sleeper.  

ex was a "bucket o' crazy, extra crispy", and honestly, not all that.  

I don't want to presume that either being normal or being with normal would be dull.  Matter of fact, I'd be tickled to death to have a healthy relationship with someone stable.  Now there's an exciting, novel, enticing, thought to get one salivating... .
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« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2010, 04:26:45 PM »

I guess I have to chime in and ask... what does Better In Bed mean anyway? We have our own definition of it. I think it can be summed up as meaning do they satisfy us more? There are some that like sexual gymnastics in the bedroom, some don't. I think the answer is very subjective.
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« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2010, 04:39:16 PM »

Responding to the original thread:

   Let us for instance, try to define "Lovemaking"  and "hit_ing".  The difference may help us understand grimalkin's original question.

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« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2010, 06:14:15 PM »

Responding to the original thread:

   Let us for instance, try to define "Lovemaking"  and "ing".  The difference may help us understand grimalkin's original question.

Well, in my relationship with my exBP, they were one and the same.  It was awesome on every level.

Grim
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« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2010, 06:43:53 PM »

For most of the 7 year r/s the sex was amazing but for quite a while before the end of the r/s it became less so but turned into an addiction and that addiction happened because emotionally I knew that it was the only connection we had to each other and I was trying to hold onto her,caught in the fog and she used it to her advantage brilliantly.

What Ive just said is a very basic explanation and the subject is much deeper than this but basically thats how it was.

We rarely went anywhere together,didnt have the same friends,werent involved with each others families and she made sure of all this.

So when she visited the sex was explosive but for a long time she only came to see me when she was in between lovers and I was too weak to resist her and she knew it.

She will never darken my door again.

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« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2010, 08:24:37 PM »

Grimalkin:  Just as a mental exercise:  Please tell me what you think the difference is between these two.  I do not mean you to define as to your own personal relationship, just what you believe is the difference.  Please understand that there is a reason that I ask and as you begin to define these, it is my belief that the reason will dawn upon you... .trust me darling... .I wouldn't knowingly ask a hurtful question. 

x

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« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2010, 09:08:01 PM »

Grimalkin:  Just as a mental exercise:  Please tell me what you think the difference is between these two.  I do not mean you to define as to your own personal relationship, just what you believe is the difference.  Please understand that there is a reason that I ask and as you begin to define these, it is my belief that the reason will dawn upon you... .trust me darling... .I wouldn't knowingly ask a hurtful question.  

x

Well, nothing has to dawn on me-- I do know that there are many, many different sexual styles.  Each person has their own, actually, and they can perform a "variation on a theme" with different people, if you get what I'm saying.

The original query was whether disordered people are better in bed.  You can take that to mean EITHER lovemaking or f***ing.  I left it up to other posters to interpret as they will.  The two are not mutually exclusive, as my relationship with my exBP exemplifies.  It was fantastic across the spectrum-- technically and emotionally.

I've f***ed without making love, but I've never made love without f***ing.  I hate to say it, and I realize it sounds really flippant, but that's just how I roll.

Grim
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« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2010, 09:23:21 PM »

I guess I have to chime in and ask... what does Better In Bed mean anyway? We have our own definition of it. I think it can be summed up as meaning do they satisfy us more? There are some that like sexual gymnastics in the bedroom, some don't. I think the answer is very subjective.

The original header was actually meant to prompt exactly that question-- what is good sex?

I personally think it is technical skill partnered with emotional intensity.  Not everyone feels that way.  I'm not judging anyone's opinion.  I did mean to suggest that disordered people put a LOT into sex.  It's a broad statement, that can be interpreted anyway you like.  Maybe it's just a high sex drive.  Who knows.  It seems that sex is a HUGE issue for pwBPD, and, judging from this board, the majority of them get validation from performing well.  Sex is such a basic drive that I offer that for disordered people with iffy boundaries and low impulse control sex is a major part of who they are.

THAT is why I offer that disordered people are better in bed. 

Again, it seems odd that more people aren't with me on this one.  There is actually a thread going RIGHT NOW with the header "Why is the sex so good?"  There is always, always some thread or another on this subject.  Am I making it too impersonal?  That was the point.  To see the sex more objectively, even if it was the most emotionally enriching experience you've ever had in your life.  What is it about these people that makes them so good?

Grim

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« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2010, 10:34:32 PM »

Yes, sex is a big part of a bp's life,some are hypersexual like my ex and some just have normal sex drives but are very into it when its happening.

I have said this in other threads on the subject and I think their sexual prowess and passion comes from their own emotional intensity.

When they are havng sex it validates them,makes them feel accepted,loved etc but its only while the sex is happening and its only about them not you and afterwards they can be very detatched,distant because they got what they wanted from you.

Deep within their minds its also about control and over time sex is used to punish or reward, imho.
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« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2010, 10:49:05 PM »

Yes, sex is a big part of a bp's life,some are hypersexual like my ex and some just have normal sex drives but are very into it when its happening.

I have said this in other threads on the subject and I think their sexual prowess and passion comes from their own emotional intensity.

When they are havng sex it validates them,makes them feel accepted,loved etc but its only while the sex is happening and its only about them not you and afterwards they can be very detatched,distant because they got what they wanted from you.

Deep within their minds its also about control and over time sex is used to punish or reward, imho.

Not true for every BP.  Mine would feel very close to me before, during and after sex-- he would even cuddle and giggle afterwards, recounting how awesome it was.  He really did love me, and had my sexual interests in mind even before his-- I'm never going to be swayed on that.  He just had other problems that had nothing to do with me that caused the relationship to disintegrate and prompted my departure.

Grim
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« Reply #69 on: December 23, 2010, 04:19:11 AM »

A hint of danger?  Again, a lack of inhibition?  Being "present" in the moment?  Emotional intensity?  Maybe their own completely messed up lack of boundaries?  All of the above?

Grim

I would agree with this.  My BPDw called me a prude when we first started having sex, and I'm a guy!  She was somewhat manic with sex and do things with and to me that helped get me addicted, get me hooked.  BJ's in parking lots, watching girl on girl porn (her dvd) while we were having sex.  It all made me feel special, alive and excited. 

It was very intense, and I admit I miss it.  It changed though.  Once I committed, we got married and after a few months, it all changed.  Now she is just a mean, insulting, hit_.  I can't do anything right.  I coulnd't wait to get her out of my house, and then I missed her.  I really missed the good side of her, which was not present anymore.  SHe is truly a disordered hit_.  People can't believe ths stuff she has said and done to me.  I deserve better.
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« Reply #70 on: December 23, 2010, 05:27:27 AM »

Grim

I didnt say it was true for all bp's,perhaps I sounded as if I was generalising, Ive read enough posts on here and been through enough therapy to know its not the same story all over.

All I can say is that with  my ex,my experience, was that from day one there was no after sex intimacy,it was like ''Ive mowed the lawn now lets put the mower in the shed'' meaning any emotional connection she might have felt during sex was immediately dismissed as soon as it was over.

There were many times when she would be at my house and an argument would happen,she would sometimes rage at me,call me all kinds of things,blame me for everything and eventually I would tell her to leave and when she got to the front door she would do the sexy siren thing and we would be back in bed,because I was too weak to resist her, and later she acted as if none of the abuse happened and if I brought it up I was told I was a weak man who couldnt handle reality.

Sex for a bp is about them and their needs and control,she has actually admitted that to me in the past,she is very aware of what she does,she's been doing it for so long how could she not be aware but she simply doesnt care as long as she gets what her twisted emotional dysregulation gets what it needs,no matter what. 
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« Reply #71 on: December 23, 2010, 05:40:51 AM »

What's weird is my BPDw would send me really sexy texts with very graphic sexual content telling me what she was going to do to me sexually.  Very descriptive, detailed, sexual content.  Of course I thought it was great and then we would get together we would act out these fantasies together.  When I travelled for business, she would call me and we'd have phone sex which is something I had never done before.  I could make her orgasm over the phone and she would sometimes say the most submissive things to me.

When we first met she asked me if I just wanted to be f**k buddies.  That should have been a big Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) .  When we were first dating and I went on a business trip she asked me to go down to the bar, pick up a woman and f**k her (other woman) with my cell phone on so she could hear us having sex.  Another Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) .  Then she wanted me to choke her during sex, which of course I refused.  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)   But it was all a bit exciting.  I had never been with a woman so sexual before and yes, so crazy about sex.  I was drawn to the disorder I think.  It excited me.

She was obsessed with my bodily fluids, and would talk about what she would do with it in a little girl voice, again with the submissive tone.  Her father committed suicide when she was young and since I am 18 years older, I often felt like she was looking for a father figure.  Wanting to love him, then out of anger (she has a violent temper) raging at him (me) for what he had done to her. 

The more I talk about this the more I realize what I am dealing with.  Wow. 

One more thing.  After being with her for about six months she quit her job, and didn't tell me.  She went of a clothes buying spree and went through all her savings.  I think she quit her job because she assumed I was going to move her in with me which I didn't do.  I wasn't ready.  She then got another job and said to me, "since I am working, I may be tired at night so the sex is not going to be the same sometimes."  I would often pay her rent and some other expenses.  She demanded it, and since I loved her (or thought so) I complied. 

Madness. 
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« Reply #72 on: December 23, 2010, 05:58:58 AM »

There is such a wide range of experiences here that generalizations are hard to make.  One commonality we do see here is that when the sex is something we can't let go of, it's because of a huge element of fanasy without much substance elsewhere in the relationship.  Another commonality is that when it's nonexistent or emotionless, it's because there are serious intimacy issues in the relationship and/or the partner is in pain from past abuse.

That said, I think it's really important to remember we are dealing with individual partners and relationships.  Every person is different, and every relationship is different.  Grimalkin, maybe your ex was just a really good lover, and you two had great chemistry and your relationship wasn't built to last because of other issues.  His BPD doesn't have to be the reason why he was a good lover - maybe he's a good lover who also has a disorder.

Not sure if that makes sense  ;p
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« Reply #73 on: December 23, 2010, 06:04:51 AM »

That said, I think it's really important to remember we are dealing with individual partners and relationships.  Every person is different, and every relationship is different.  Grimalkin, maybe your ex was just a really good lover, and you two had great chemistry and your relationship wasn't built to last because of other issues.  His BPD doesn't have to be the reason why he was a good lover - maybe he's a good lover who also has a disorder.

Not sure if that makes sense  ;p

I think the manic craziness, and lack of boundaries enables more uninhibited sex.  Since they are disordered, its more exciting because they will do and say things other people wouldn't. 
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« Reply #74 on: December 23, 2010, 08:14:00 AM »

I have been saying for years sex with someone a little crazy is always better. Now that is not to say you should actually get involved with them either which is what we are fell trapped into. Crazy or disfunctional people don't have the same things to offer that a non does in terms of a sharing lasting and healthy functioning relationship. Mine ex seemed to always want sex after a big fight or rage just to make themselves feel better. Sometimes I actually think they just craved make-up sex. They have looks and sexuality to make themselves feel better internally and is more than likely the only way they can connect with a partner and feel good about themselves.

My exBPDgf was the best sex I have had and it was frequent and the norm. It wasn't porn sex but very intense staring in the eyes pleasuring each other type of sex ending most times with but climaxing O together... .She wouldn't turn down sex even to punish and neither would I. Once they feel they don't love or need you anymore is when the tap is turned off i found. It is the only thing they can give to another at least in their heads. Call it sexual healing to quote Marvin Gay. I thought mine was so much more but in the end she followed suit with most of yours and wasn't much more than dating and having sex with a porn star in terms of relationship. Trying to wrap your head around leaving the craziness of the relationship in comparison to the very passionate and intimate sexual climate they surround and just how that makes you feel overall. I couldn't bring my ex to a dinner party or around friends/family, my work... .but i sure could have great sex everynight but is that truly a relationship in the end. I am thinking we both were selfish and it took time away to realize that. My guess is hell no and I just need to find an overall view rather than just the intimacy we both craved from each other. Love was never meant to be just sex and a way to hold two people together that probably should have walked away long before the dance started.
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« Reply #75 on: December 23, 2010, 08:29:53 AM »

Canucky,

Very well said. 

I am really impressed with the intelligence, clarity, articulate manner and kindness from everyone here.  Very impressed.
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« Reply #76 on: December 23, 2010, 10:19:07 AM »

It seems that sex is a HUGE issue for pwBPD, and, judging from this board, the majority of them get validation from performing well.  Sex is such a basic drive that I offer that for disordered people with iffy boundaries and low impulse control sex is a major part of who they are.

I agree, and I think the survival instinct plays a big role. They don't do well being alone and what better way to draw somebody into their life than awesome bedroom performances?
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« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2010, 10:22:05 AM »

I agree, and I think the survival instinct plays a big role. They don't do well being alone and what better way to draw somebody into their life than awesome bedroom performances?

Yes, but what's weird is once you commit and they have you, they don't want you anymore and make your life a living hell.  I MARRIED this woman after she DEMANDED I do so, claiming the security would help our r/s.  It was good for about a month or two after we were married then bang the games begin again. 

"I am the eggman, I am the eggman... ."
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« Reply #78 on: December 23, 2010, 10:41:59 AM »

Not true for every BP.  Mine would feel very close to me before, during and after sex-- he would even cuddle and giggle afterwards, recounting how awesome it was.  He really did love me, and had my sexual interests in mind even before his-- I'm never going to be swayed on that.

This doesn't fit with my knowledge/understanding of a pwBPD.  I don't recall if you said he was diagnosed or not.  In any case, if he was on the crazier end of the spectrum, I would think the less likely the above would apply.  So maybe it's more like... . people who are a little bit crazy (and care about your satisfaction, and are good technically, and have emotional intensity) are good in bed - whereas those who don't possess those traits, or are super crazy - may or may not be (but most likely not).

Personally, I've never met a person with PD traits who had the capability for something that's very important to me when making love: true/authentic emotional connection.

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« Reply #79 on: December 23, 2010, 11:49:56 AM »

There is such a wide range of experiences here that generalizations are hard to make.  One commonality we do see here is that when the sex is something we can't let go of, it's because of a huge element of fanasy without much substance elsewhere in the relationship.  Another commonality is that when it's nonexistent or emotionless, it's because there are serious intimacy issues in the relationship and/or the partner is in pain from past abuse.

That said, I think it's really important to remember we are dealing with individual partners and relationships.  Every person is different, and every relationship is different.  Grimalkin, maybe your ex was just a really good lover, and you two had great chemistry and your relationship wasn't built to last because of other issues.  His BPD doesn't have to be the reason why he was a good lover - maybe he's a good lover who also has a disorder.

Not sure if that makes sense  ;p

It does-- gives me something to think about.

Grim
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« Reply #80 on: December 23, 2010, 12:01:45 PM »

Not true for every BP.  Mine would feel very close to me before, during and after sex-- he would even cuddle and giggle afterwards, recounting how awesome it was.  He really did love me, and had my sexual interests in mind even before his-- I'm never going to be swayed on that.

This doesn't fit with my knowledge/understanding of a pwBPD.  I don't recall if you said he was diagnosed or not.  In any case, if he was on the crazier end of the spectrum, I would think the less likely the above would apply.  So maybe it's more like... . people who are a little bit crazy (and care about your satisfaction, and are good technically, and have emotional intensity) are good in bed - whereas those who don't possess those traits, or are super crazy - may or may not be (but most likely not).

Personally, I've never met a person with PD traits who had the capability for something that's very important to me when making love: true/authentic emotional connection.

He was never formally diagnosed, but he exhibited 8 of the 9 diagnostic criteria for BPD while I was dating him, including paranoid ideation, splitting and black and white thinking.  In the past he's exhibited 9 for 9, including self harm and suicidal ideation.  I'm pretty convinced he has it.  His arguing style also fits: deflection, blame, crazy accusations, blackmail, etc.  He was very loving sometimes and actually quite emotionally abusive and occasionally physically abusive, so I've also wondered if he didn't have DID.

Grim
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« Reply #81 on: December 23, 2010, 12:25:34 PM »

There is such a wide range of experiences here that generalizations are hard to make.  One commonality we do see here is that when the sex is something we can't let go of, it's because of a huge element of fanasy without much substance elsewhere in the relationship.  Another commonality is that when it's nonexistent or emotionless, it's because there are serious intimacy issues in the relationship and/or the partner is in pain from past abuse.

That said, I think it's really important to remember we are dealing with individual partners and relationships.  Every person is different, and every relationship is different.  Grimalkin, maybe your ex was just a really good lover, and you two had great chemistry and your relationship wasn't built to last because of other issues.  His BPD doesn't have to be the reason why he was a good lover - maybe he's a good lover who also has a disorder.

Not sure if that makes sense  ;p

It does-- gives me something to think about.

Grim

Actually, I still think his disorder made him a better lover.  He was technically fantastic to begin with, plus we had great chemistry, but I think the level of emotional bonding and the fact that he seemed to want to do EVERY conceivable thing to me and with me all at once was in no small way the result of being BPDed.  Lack of inhibition, shaky boundaries-- all of it was fine with me, though.

Sadly he too started losing interest about halfway through the relationship and things got very vanilla.  I was dumbfounded.  The change was so unexpected.  This was the same time he started finding fault with me and spending more and more time being angry at me.  I hadn't changed.  It was all him.

Grim
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« Reply #82 on: December 23, 2010, 12:33:39 PM »

 Grimalkin, it's time to lock this thread.

If you want to start a related thread, perhaps following up on the thoughts in your last  reply here, please feel free to do so!
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