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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: Friend psychologist challenged me on my perceptions  (Read 6604 times)
whitedoe
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« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2011, 10:12:54 PM »

Your friend the psychologist is absolutely incorrect. I too am a psychologist and my ex fiancé has BPD. I have trained to treat BPD and those who suffer from r/s with BPDs, and I still got myself involved in an incredibly unhealthy and toxic r/s with one. It is simply impossible to describe. A bit of history on BPD, it was first recognized by Freud, he used the term for those who bordered on the edge of neurosis and psychosis. Over the years and through the evolution of the DSM, the text used to diagnose mental illness, it has morphed into what it has now become. In a convoluted way, your friend is slightly correct. People who have experienced a healthy childhood and successfully made their transitions through the critical mental and emotional developmental milestones and possess significant ego strength would run from a BPD person as quickly as possible. So there is a compatibility aspect. Those of us who do get unhealthily enmeshed with BPDs are also suffering from a mental disorder to some extent. That's the sad part. So, BPD is real, the criteria and symptoms of those diagnosed with it are very clear and diagnosable yet confusing. The real problem, or I guess question is, what do we need to fix in ourselves to help us understand why we would tolerate such degrading behavior for so long and when we get the opportunity to escape, we beg for more. I myself know I am somewhat codependent and as painful as it is to admit, masochistic. After enough therapy and inner healing, whether or not BPD exists is irrelevant. I will be whole person and won't waste my time, money, emotion and energy on a person with BPD. I will recognize it immediately and know instinctively to run and avoid any type of r/s. I'm not quite there yet, but T 3 times a week and tons of internal work is getting me

closer and closer each day. I see my ex as a very sick individual who is not capable of

causing nothing but excruciating pain to whoever does get involved with her. But, her

condition is real and it is called Borderline Personality Disorder. As far as the $ aspect goes,

they can be treated because there are typically other diagnosis that are present that go

hand and hand with BPD that are billable. The real problem is; most psychologists, therapists, whatever refuse to treat people with BPD because they cause the therapist to

suffer greatly and question their ability to perform their profession. We hate to treat them

and most refuse. 

Great post, Jeff. Very interesting points... .Yes, I agree with you totally... ."we" are also "unwell" in the fact that we "hang on" and allow ourselves to be devalued by these pwBPD (and in my situation  NPD as well)... .and yes, we seemingly "beg for more"? Aghh... .I am in T now twice a week and hope to better understand how this happened to me? I have never put up with mistreatment from any other r/s in my life? How did I get so "sucked in" to this BPD/NPD man? And why do I continue to grieve so terribly over a man who "dumped" me and never looked back? Good grief? My stuff, for sure!

I wish you well with your therapy and "self work" and appreciate your sharing... .Smiling (click to insert in post)

WhiteDoe
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ve01603
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« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2011, 03:13:28 AM »

Your friend the psychologist is absolutely incorrect. I too am a psychologist and my ex fiancé has BPD. I have trained to treat BPD and those who suffer from r/s with BPDs, and I still got myself involved in an incredibly unhealthy and toxic r/s with one. It is simply impossible to describe. A bit of history on BPD, it was first recognized by Freud, he used the term for those who bordered on the edge of neurosis and psychosis. Over the years and through the evolution of the DSM, the text used to diagnose mental illness, it has morphed into what it has now become. In a convoluted way, your friend is slightly correct. People who have experienced a healthy childhood and successfully made their transitions through the critical mental and emotional developmental milestones and possess significant ego strength would run from a BPD person as quickly as possible. So there is a compatibility aspect. Those of us who do get unhealthily enmeshed with BPDs are also suffering from a mental disorder to some extent. That's the sad part. So, BPD is real, the criteria and symptoms of those diagnosed with it are very clear and diagnosable yet confusing. The real problem, or I guess question is, what do we need to fix in ourselves to help us understand why we would tolerate such degrading behavior for so long and when we get the opportunity to escape, we beg for more. I myself know I am somewhat codependent and as painful as it is to admit, masochistic. After enough therapy and inner healing, whether or not BPD exists is irrelevant. I will be whole person and won't waste my time, money, emotion and energy on a person with BPD. I will recognize it immediately and know instinctively to run and avoid any type of r/s. I'm not quite there yet, but T 3 times a week and tons of internal work is getting me

closer and closer each day. I see my ex as a very sick individual who is not capable of

causing nothing but excruciating pain to whoever does get involved with her. But, her

condition is real and it is called Borderline Personality Disorder. As far as the $ aspect goes,

they can be treated because there are typically other diagnosis that are present that go

hand and hand with BPD that are billable. The real problem is; most psychologists, therapists, whatever refuse to treat people with BPD because they cause the therapist to

suffer greatly and question their ability to perform their profession. We hate to treat them

and most refuse. 

Great post, Jeff. Very interesting points... .Yes, I agree with you totally... ."we" are also "unwell" in the fact that we "hang on" and allow ourselves to be devalued by these pwBPD (and in my situation  NPD as well)... .and yes, we seemingly "beg for more"? Aghh... .I am in T now twice a week and hope to better understand how this happened to me? I have never put up with mistreatment from any other r/s in my life? How did I get so "sucked in" to this BPD/NPD man? And why do I continue to grieve so terribly over a man who "dumped" me and never looked back? Good grief? My stuff, for sure!

I wish you well with your therapy and "self work" and appreciate your sharing... .Smiling (click to insert in post)

WhiteDoe

I agree with WhiteDoe.
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Noob
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« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2011, 08:41:34 PM »

Allow T to live it for 13 yrs. Then have him read up on BPD. Watch him post like a madman. Come to think about it. Is it possible he is BPD ? That would make more sense.

I chortled.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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ve01603
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« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2011, 06:42:49 AM »

plus, seriously, how do you find "compatibility" with a person who rages? unless you love to rage or be raged at, which would just be sick, not compatible.



THIS IS EXACTLY THE AHA MOMENT FOR ME, HOW CAN I BE CLOSE WITH SOMEONE ANGRY ALL THE TIME! I used to think it was my job to endure it, put out the flames, figure it out, now I know no one does that, it does not produce intimacy it hurts it destroys it.  And when I have lapses this one sentence reality bases me... .

Yes.  Amazing.  Why in the world did I think that it was my job to endure this from someone that I was not married to, did not have children with, that did not support me?

Boy he really lost out.  Who else is going to be that strupid?
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Mystic
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« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2011, 07:50:56 AM »

plus, seriously, how do you find "compatibility" with a person who rages? unless you love to rage or be raged at, which would just be sick, not compatible.



THIS IS EXACTLY THE AHA MOMENT FOR ME, HOW CAN I BE CLOSE WITH SOMEONE ANGRY ALL THE TIME! I used to think it was my job to endure it, put out the flames, figure it out, now I know no one does that, it does not produce intimacy it hurts it destroys it.  And when I have lapses this one sentence reality bases me... .

Yes.  Amazing.  Why in the world did I think that it was my job to endure this from someone that I was not married to, did not have children with, that did not support me?

Boy he really lost out.  Who else is going to be that strupid?

Our name is legion, lovey. 
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Mystic
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« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2011, 07:51:28 AM »

Allow T to live it for 13 yrs. Then have him read up on BPD. Watch him post like a madman. Come to think about it. Is it possible he is BPD ? That would make more sense.

Now *that's* funny!   Smiling (click to insert in post)
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ItsAboutTime
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« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2011, 01:29:46 PM »

I have worked in mental health and I would agree with the Psychologist that any mental disorder, not only BPD,  would be nebulous or lacking clear definition without precise diagnostic criteria. The ':)SM' - Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has established that criteria. There are nine identifiable factors of which five or more must be recognized in order to establish the BPD diagnosis. Thus, it is not vague or unclear.

He is correct that people very often have some of these traits or are just simply incompatible, so relationships eventually break down and fail.  I have also read quite a few posts here that sound more like that was the case, and not BPD.
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Mystic
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« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2011, 02:26:30 PM »

Haha, I've known "incompatible".  There's a relative normalcy to incompatible.  I've also known "highly dysfunctional" (ex husband was an alcoholic, prone to violence, 13 car accidents, 4 DUI's, etc.).    

Nothing, but nothing came close to the time with my exbf who I believe to be BPD'd.  Nothing.  That was a mind**** in a league all its own.  

Incompatible?  Pfffffft.  

Incompatible is two mature people trying things on for size and then deciding they don't jive as a couple.  

Highly dysfunctional doesn't generally wear a disguise.  It's a visible hot mess, and what you see is what you get.  

BPD gets an award for not only feigning normalcy, but managing to feign over-the-top *wonderful* while all the while underneath the wonderful disguise sits one extra large, piping hot, bucket o' crazy, extra crispy.   ;p

Incompatible, my fanny.  
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egribkb
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« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2011, 02:35:10 PM »

BPD gets an award for not only feigning normalcy, but managing to feign over-the-top *wonderful* while all the while underneath the wonderful disguise sits one extra large, piping hot, bucket o' crazy, extra crispy.   ;p

Haha, classic.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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confused_dad

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WWW
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2011, 02:40:17 PM »

Haha, I've known "incompatible".  There's a relative normalcy to incompatible.  I've also known "highly dysfunctional" (ex husband was an alcoholic, prone to violence, 13 car accidents, 4 DUI's, etc.).    

Nothing, but nothing came close to the time with my exbf who I believe to be BPD'd.  Nothing.  That was a mind**** in a league all its own.  

Incompatible?  Pfffffft.  

Incompatible is two mature people trying things on for size and then deciding they don't jive as a couple.  

Highly dysfunctional doesn't generally wear a disguise.  It's a visible hot mess, and what you see is what you get.  

BPD gets an award for not only feigning normalcy, but managing to feign over-the-top *wonderful* while all the while underneath the wonderful disguise sits one extra large, piping hot, bucket o' crazy, extra crispy.   ;p

Incompatible, my fanny.  

I would use that for a tag line if I actually did any posting.   Being cool (click to insert in post)

+1!
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GallowsSunshine

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« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2011, 12:23:42 AM »

Livia, your post is just totally perfect. Thank you.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

This "incompatibility" angle has actually played out weirdly in our relationship. The first time this concept was interjected (I believe by me), it felt like some great burden was lifted. Unfortunately for the following years, the "incompatible" talk morphed into something akin to a breakup talk. When we've had that talk, it seems to provide A LOT of relief for uBPDh -- as much as that first time, which I find odd. It became the "relief" at the end of a round of insanity. It would calm him, and at that tipping point he'd go from lion to lamb.

Is that some oddball type of rapid recycling, like the painful thought of breaking up sent him straight back to idealizing me?

Who knows, maybe we're just not compatible, maybe we're two normal people that together make something unsavory. But really, in my wildest dreams, I never imagined I would marry someone I didn't believe I was *compatible* with. The fact the questioning started almost 9 years in (as I started coming out of the FOG) is a testament to the dysfunction in our relationship.


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sixspeed
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« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2011, 01:16:01 AM »

Hey my ex will tell you yourself, she told me, it's not BPD she just suffers from:

"anxiety, panic attacks, severe lack of self esteem, no feeling of purpose, emotionally impulsive decisions, cycles of depression, unsafe sexual practices, spending binges, obsessive behavior, suicidal thoughts and manipulations, all or nothing thinking, and that she lives in the now and doesn't believe in planning for the future".

I suppose that means she's not compatible with me... .or more like any partnership... .

I'm an IT professional but I don't know every programming language.

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C12P21
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« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2011, 02:40:47 AM »

Livia,

I am exhausted and worn from a long, long day. Your post sent me into a fit of giggles.

C
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MindfulJavaJoe
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Everything is as it is meant to be.


« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2011, 03:24:21 AM »

 Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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Mystic
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« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2011, 07:17:53 AM »

Livia,

I am exhausted and worn from a long, long day. Your post sent me into a fit of giggles.

C

Now that makes my day.  You know... .He even came with a side of potatoes and two buttermilk biscuits.  Why I didn't see... .Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)

Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2011, 07:55:29 AM »

Can add at this stage my friends interest in psychology stems from him having his own issues and a desire to work on his own stuff.

He is single but is working.

His father was physically abusive to him as a child

At times his thinking is all over the place >> I have loads of friends ... .I hate being alone. Nobody wants to be with me >>everone tells me how much fun I am.

He is warm, excitable and fun loving but I have seen him be emotionally volatile. I once saw him lose the head with a girl he used to go out with.

I am only just Begining to put 2and 2 together. I spoke with him yesterday and the girl he was saying was wonderful last week is suddenly a tramp and a slut.

This guy I am now realise doesn't like labels because he probably has BPD or some personality disorder.

I have only really got to know him again since I started rebuilding my social network.

I wish him well but I don't need a friend with a personality disorder.

Begining to feel like a BPD magnet.

Weird.
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ve01603
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« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2011, 09:48:25 AM »

It's like Iyanla Van Zant says, "when you see crazy coming, cross the street.  But oh no, we invite crazy in, because we know crazy.  We used to buy crazy lunch in school.  So we invite crazy in, buy him an tuna fish sandwich, let crazy sleep on the couch and pretty soon, we have little crazylettes!" Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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C12P21
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« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2011, 10:59:29 AM »

Excerpt
I am only just Begining to put 2and 2 together. I spoke with him yesterday and the girl he was saying was wonderful last week is suddenly a tramp and a slut.

This guy I am now realise doesn't like labels because he probably has BPD or some personality disorde

r.

I found this statement to be true of my relationships and coworkers. What happened inside of me is the more aware I became of wanting to live with integrity to my values and emotions-the easier it became to recognize people that don't behave or speak with emotional integrity. There are times when people are stressed out or have a lot of things coming at them and they might respond in ways uncharacteristic of their usual and predictable behavior. And then there are the folks where their behavior consistently reflects this unpredictability or the things they say are confusing, or abusive.

From what you state above-your friend sounds like doesn't value women very much especially by labeling someone so harshly that he cared about. Kind of creepy especially with the degree he has and having studied human behavior-harsh.

I have limited contact now with friends and family that are not congruent with their behaviors or emotions. This transition was not easy but necessary as the need for boundaries and self protection became important to me in my mental and emotional health.

Take care,

C
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MindfulJavaJoe
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« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2011, 12:53:59 PM »

I have limited contact now with friends and family that are not congruent with their behaviors or emotions. This transition was not easy but necessary as the need for boundaries and self protection became important to me in my mental and emotional health.



Great advice.

I  seeing people with  |>In my life and slowly putting distance between them and me.

I think it important to have people around you that enrich you life.

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« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2011, 01:19:12 PM »

I have to admit that I'm sort of on the fence about this one. My ex was as mad as a box of frogs, there's no denying that, but I can't help but sort of wonder if all the drama and chaos was partially due to incompatibility. Basically my ex always told me that she has always only ever wanted to be loved by a man, so I thought, 'Isn't this great? A woman who finally values warmth and sensitivity in a man'. However, we could be intimate at times, but then she'd become very cold and distant with me, and I was confused. She'd start psychologically castrating me, saying I need to man up, and stop being so affectionate. Then, when I decided to start playing the game, I decided to become arrogant and aloof towards her, and it was then that she did a 180 turn around, and couldn't get enough of me.

Now, I mentioned in a thread, the other day, that since the split I've been studying tons of material on the female psyche, and what they really want in a man, and it says that women are really attracted to men's men, and not affectionate men because these are considered effeminate traits and therefore a turn off to a woman. The articles state that women are most attracted to men they feel protected by, and men who convey a strong degree of dominance, hence the attraction to the alpha male. Apparently we've been taught everything wrong - we should not be all nicey nice and sweet to our women, but more dominant. When they see this, they feel protected, and wont challenge you because they know you're stronger.

So I decide to start putting these principles to the test, and I started going into nightclubs conveying masculine body language, and a slight scowl on my face. Now, I didn't even have to make any form of eye contact with women, nor use any chat up lines; they all started flocking towards me, and wanting to get to know me, because they were magnetically drawn to my masculine body language (and I'm talking about really attractive women here, too). This was no one off thing either, because each time I did this, I kept getting the same results everytime, along with women's numbers.

So, could it be that we weren't showing enough dominance in our r/s with our ex's, and did they sense "weakness" in us, and create drama in a bid to get us angry so that we'd man up, become more dominant, and make them feel more protected?

I also started reading many things about how "nice guys" only attract borderlines; is this a coincidence, or could it be what I just said about the woman acting out to toughen their man up, so they feel more secure?

ETA: it sounds like I'm being contradictory considering what I've posted about BPD in the past, but I'm just offering a possibility on what causes the acting out and all the rest of it. Not saying this is definitely the case, but perhaps a potential contributory factor to say the least.

 
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nowforsomethingdifferent
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« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2011, 02:10:52 PM »

I think this incompatibility thing sounds like minimization.

When I would try to talk to my ex about how her demands were unreasonable, she would curl up in a ball, get on the floor and start rocking back and forth.

Most of the time, I became terrified that she wasn't okay.  At one point, I almost called 911.  I would try to hug her, try to talk to her, bring her water--anything to get her to feel better.

What wound up happening is that I would just swallow my own feelings and we couldn't really have an adult conversation.

Then there were the times she would threaten to have me 'abducted' or her family would put a 'hit' on me.

Then whole events that I *thought* I had experienced with her never happened.  History completely changed.  Whole events happened that I had no idea had ever happened.

She would tell me she didn't want me around but then tell me it would be the biggest mistake of her life to let me go.

Lately, in her blog she started talking about becoming a 'super villian.'

Who would be compatible with this?  If this is normal and not a psychological issue, what purpose and value does psychology have if it does not recognize this as a condition?

My point is that no one can be compatible with someone who idealizes you and then rapidly within a brief period of time hates you.

No one can be compatible with someone who can ask for serious commitments from someone, then act like those commitments meant nothing.

No one can be compatible with someone whose view of the past changes daily.

No one can be compatible with someone who can't take personal responsibility for any relationship problem.

If that's a compatibility problem, what constitutes a psychological problem?  If the only valid concerns within psychology are hard, chemical issues, why wouldn't neurologists just take over the field?  What role would psychology have, independent of the BPD label?

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« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2011, 02:49:20 PM »

Excerpt
Now, I mentioned in a thread, the other day, that since the split I've been studying tons of material on the female psyche, and what they really want in a man

When you read articles like this-you might ensure they are academic and peer reviewed. What exactly is a man's man? I have heard men say this before about a boss of mine, I find it curious.

Excerpt
and not affectionate men because these are considered effeminate traits and therefore a turn off to a woman. The articles state that women are most attracted to men they feel protected by, and men who convey a strong degree of dominance, hence the attraction to the alpha male.

If you study the science of attraction and desire-usually it is based in body shapes and symmetry of the face.

Excerpt
Apparently we've been taught everything wrong - we should not be all nicey nice and sweet to our women, but more dominant. When they see this, they feel protected, and wont challenge you because they know you're stronge

Perhaps it is the choice of your words? I think there is truth that women want to feel secure in a r/s and there is a sense of protection with a man around. But the line gets crossed when a woman feels she cannot "challenge" a man because he is strong. Dominance is about control and no one wants to be controlled. Safe, we want to feel safe with our strong man. We want to know he will have our backs in our moments of indecision or weakness and he will try to understand and offer emotional support. We also like believing he would protect us if need be-but remember women are just as capable of providing protection. Most women I know would walk through fire for our loved ones.

Excerpt
So I decide to start putting these principles to the test, and I started going into nightclubs conveying masculine body language, and a slight scowl on my face. Now, I didn't even have to make any form of eye contact with women, nor use any chat up lines; they all started flocking towards me, and wanting to get to know me, because they were magnetically drawn to my masculine body language (and I'm talking about really attractive women here, too). This was no one off thing either, because each time I did this, I kept getting the same results everytime, along with women's numbers

.

Maybe it is because you are in a nightclub, which is kind of a limited setting. What if you tried that approach in a church, a hiking group, or a volunteer setting? If you are looking for girls (even attractive ones) that are interested in macho guys-maybe you have found the right venue in a night club.

I have three beautiful, intelligent and well adjusted daughters-two are married to nice guys. The reason these men won their hearts is simple-they are my daughters best friends and lovers. Both men have committed themselves to my daughters and have the capacity to negotiate, share, laugh, and assert their needs in relationships.

I guess what I am trying to tell you is this-never give up on being a nice man. Don't allow some jaded experience warp your sense of self or your understanding of women. Men don't come in packages with directions and a label. Neither do women. The joy of relationship is the discovery of each other-but you have to know yourself well enough to embark on that journey.

Read the book "The Shopgirl" by Steve Martin. He does a nice job of writing about the female and male experience. Its an easy read, too.

C

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« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2011, 03:20:15 PM »

This was no one off thing either, because each time I did this, I kept getting the same results everytime, along with women's numbers.

I've seen these observations/insights to the female before. 

I think the most important thing to bear in mind is a nightclub is a primal and sexual environment. Initial sexual attraction is hardly a marker for long-term relationship success. 

The "dominance" you're projecting to make initial contact, in a woman's mind is more than likely received as "confidence." I highly doubt, in the context of a long-term relationship, the average woman would place a priority on being dominated. However, a woman (myself included) would place importance on having a confident, self-fulfilled mate. 

So, could it be that we weren't showing enough dominance in our r/s with our ex's, and did they sense "weakness" in us, and create drama in a bid to get us angry so that we'd man up, become more dominant, and make them feel more protected?.

This simply sounds like a round on the drama triangle, bouncing around from persecutor, victim and rescuer. Since you've placed this in terms of gender roles, how would you explain a BPD man that behaves the same way?

I think that our BPD partners are able to hone in on whatever underdeveloped elements of our personality that *we* feel guilty/ashamed/self-conscious about. Exploiting those feelings is part of the emotional blackmail tactics the pwBPD employs.

ex. My uBPDh knows I don't have a particularly strong mothering drive, and early on we agreed neither of us want children. While I don't feel like a failure as a woman, it still is a source of some confusion for me internally. When he's angry with me I am painted as selfish, uncaring and incapable of nurturing him or anything else.



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« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2011, 04:05:22 PM »

I think that our BPD partners are able to hone in on whatever underdeveloped elements of our personality that *we* feel guilty/ashamed/self-conscious about. Exploiting those feelings is part of the emotional blackmail tactics the pwBPD employs.

That's it right there, BPD will declare, blame, and project based upon those underdeveloped or insecure facets of a person (i.e. mine twisted my rational, reserved, and calm nature in the face of her emotional swings as being distant, cold, unsupporting which made me question myself and lose confidence). A healthy person regardless of compatibility in a relationship does not exploit the weakness in a another person for emotional blackmail and priming enmeshment. A real partner understands your strengths and limitations (and viceversa), works with them and not against them.

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AlexDP
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« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2011, 04:13:53 PM »

This was no one off thing either, because each time I did this, I kept getting the same results everytime, along with women's numbers.

I've seen these observations/insights to the female before. 

I think the most important thing to bear in mind is a nightclub is a primal and sexual environment. Initial sexual attraction is hardly a marker for long-term relationship success. 

The "dominance" you're projecting to make initial contact, in a woman's mind is more than likely received as "confidence." I highly doubt, in the context of a long-term relationship, the average woman would place a priority on being dominated. However, a woman (myself included) would place importance on having a confident, self-fulfilled mate. 

A healthy woman. I think a lot of people on this forum, especially those past their twenties underestimate the amount of narcissism in young girls. It is astounding. You have girls everywhere taking pictures of themselves so they can put them on facebook. They accumulate hundreds of male friends just so the guys could like their pictures. And when a girl doesn't care, it takes a lot of spirit to resist the peer pressure.

Personality disorders may be caused by childhood trauma, but the symptoms are most definitely exacerbated by our culture. When these girls meet a guy who doesn't care about them, they will do anything to make him care. It is just foul.
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« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2011, 04:39:15 PM »

Excerpt
The articles state that women are most attracted to men they feel protected by, and men who convey a strong degree of dominance, hence the attraction to the alpha male.

I think what you are talking about, re: "alpha male" is just another word for the grandiose false self of narcissism. This isn't gender specific mind you, the entire American society values and looks up to it. These personality constructs are just ways of bargaining with feelings, especialy concerning low self esteem, voicelessness and powerlessness.

Narcissism is one of our most dangerous blocks to true intimacy, as it makes people exploitative and self centered for personal gain to prevent the bad feelings from arising- but it's a fear based reaction. It also attracts Borderlines simply because the Borderline has a deficient identity that attempts to fuse to the grandiose false self- also on a fear based reaction. Neither one supports true intimacy and the attachment itself is based on a house of falling cards.

You can put on a mask and attract people based upon that mask, but your greatest fear is that you will be unmasked and therefore unloved. Vulnerable narcissists (those nice guys and gals who feel better about themselves because they try to control and fix the rest of the World) get manipulated by borderlines who act out in order to control the attachment which activates the fears of the vulnerable narcissist. The two just go round and round and activate each others fears.

One of the best books that I've ever read on this subject is Search For The Real Self : Unmasking The Personality Disorders Of Our Age by James Masterson. www.amazon.com/Search-Real-Self-Unmasking-Personality/dp/0029202922 It is a telling read.
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« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2011, 05:24:40 PM »

GS.

Thanks for the articulate post. You are right on in your observations and insights.

2010- thanks so much for YOUR insights!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

About this post:

Excerpt
Personality disorders may be caused by childhood trauma, but the symptoms are most definitely exacerbated by our culture. When these girls meet a guy who doesn't care about them, they will do anything to make him care. It is just foul.

Young girls and young adult females are lost in a culture of exploitation. Look at the media and portrayal of what women should or should not be. Often the message is  about being sexual and vying for a mans attention to find  a voice in the world or a position of power. There is a book titled "Reviving Ophelia" that explores what is happening to our young girls and the price they pay for this voicelessness.

What you observe is true-and a sign of our cultural values.

C
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« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2011, 05:46:39 PM »

GS.

Thanks for the articulate post. You are right on in your observations and insights.

2010- thanks so much for YOUR insights!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

About this post:

Excerpt
Personality disorders may be caused by childhood trauma, but the symptoms are most definitely exacerbated by our culture. When these girls meet a guy who doesn't care about them, they will do anything to make him care. It is just foul.

Young girls and young adult females are lost in a culture of exploitation. Look at the media and portrayal of what women should or should not be. Often the message is  about being sexual and vying for a mans attention to find  a voice in the world or a position of power. There is a book titled "Reviving Ophelia" that explores what is happening to our young girls and the price they pay for this voicelessness.

What you observe is true-and a sign of our cultural values.

C

And this mentality is fed to them from the time they can walk and talk.  Look at the Disney cartoon features.  Everything is about meeting the prince, winning him and getting married.  

Ariel, the little mermaid is willing to give up her entire life "Undah da Sea", her father, her family her whole world... .*and* give up her voice (interesting) so that she can have her prince just based upon a glimpse of his handsome little self.  

And this is what we teach our daughters.   ?
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« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2011, 06:06:17 PM »

Excerpt
Vulnerable narcissists (those nice guys and gals who feel better about themselves because they try to control and fix the rest of the World) get manipulated by borderlines who act out in order to control the attachment which activates the fears of the vulnerable narcissist. The two just go round and round and activate each others fears.

Altrustic Narcissists suck in other people by their generocity and gifts. I presume that this means acts of kindness as well.

I may be wrong but do they not also have problems with true intimacy? Isn't intimacy something they fear?

I am not really that familiar with the term so cannot say I truly understand their traits.

I am a kind and generous person, used to give my wife gifts all the time, I used to crave intimacy. I longed to feel close to my wife. At times I felt we were really very close and intimate physically and emotionally. For me these were the highs of our time together. "The good stuff".  I still don't know if this was an illusion of my mind.

I remember when she told me she never loved me I felt that perhaps my perceptions of what we had were all wrong. Was this true or just said to hurt?

I guess I will never know. I also know that other than an exercise in growth and self development I have to let these moments go. I will cherish what I perceived but always wonder why I never saw she shared those feelings.

I could spend a lifetime dissecting my experience with my uBPDw and still be no closer to truly understanding it.

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« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2011, 06:17:26 PM »

Yes society does portray fantasy worlds, disney, soap operas, ect., ect., but for one to get stuck on this, and not mature emotionally with age, is fairly illogical at best. There is still plenty of reality to offset this, if one is perceptive. We all suffer from abandonment and intimacy issues, just some worse than others. Whether people deal with thier issues or not, is thier choice, not thier excuse
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