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Author Topic: Friend psychologist challenged me on my perceptions  (Read 6629 times)
MindfulJavaJoe
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« on: June 08, 2011, 11:50:03 AM »

I had an interesting discussion with a friend who happens to be a psychologist. He said he does not like to use labels or stigmatise indeviduals.

He felt that BPD is a nebulous condition which may not exist in reality?

I gave him a chance to explain.

He felt that some people are just not compatible and it may this incompatibility that people perceive as BPD.

Personally I didnt agree.

My uBPDw has 7/9 longterm criteria (20 years) from my perspective that I have witnessed. Her emotional immaturity fits.

The knowledge I have picked up here and from SWOE has frequently allowed me to predict my uBPDw patterns of behaviour.

From where I sit and my personal experience it is a very real condition but not all pwBPD are the same.

Psychologist and psychotherapists seem to have completely differing ways of looking at things.

?


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« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2011, 12:06:49 PM »

Your friend clearly has no understanding or experience with BPD.  However, his bottom line point is correct:  for most of us, the answer is to get as far away from a PwBPD as possible.

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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2011, 12:07:54 PM »

My thoughts:

Before you had your relationship, had you ever heard of this disorder?  If you did not observe the behaviors of your wife directly, would you have believed someone else's account of similar behavior of their significant other?  Or would you think they were exaggerating?

And let's say hypothetically, you are a psychologist.  How many opportunities would you get first hand to observe a pwBPD's dysregulated behavior?  Remember how able minded they can appear outside the context of an intimate relationship.

I think low-functioning pwBPD might be easier to spot, but for high-functioning pwBPD, I'd bet that most inexperienced therapists would end up getting gas-lighted into believing that the non-spouse is the disordered partner (and to some degree they wouldn't be wrong).
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2011, 12:14:12 PM »

 I totally agree with Schwing...

Also, depends on the specialization and training of the psychologist, therapist, etc... ie: does he specialize in mental illnesses and the DSM...

There is also controversy in the field as to whether BPD is overdiagnosed in women and the whole re-naming the disorder in the next DSM.

My ex-h was high functioning, educated, & a therapist & would easily be able to hide his disordered thinking in therapy & did for a while...
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2011, 12:31:01 PM »

Sounds like your psychologist is just being politically correct.

Lack of compatability is one thing... .but, i.e., in my experience a women not wanting me as more than a friend one minute and crying/begging that I never to leave her and telling me she loves me so much the next minute and then dropping me altogether  by email?  Something is wrong with the woman I knew.

Sadly, political correctness and avoiding stigmatizing people is more important to psychologists that giving a true diagnosis.
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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2011, 01:02:33 PM »

Sounds like your psychologist is just being politically correct.

Lack of compatability is one thing... .but, i.e., in my experience a women not wanting me as more than a friend one minute and crying/begging that I never to leave her and telling me she loves me so much the next minute and then dropping me altogether  by email?  Something is wrong with the woman I knew.

Sadly, political correctness and avoiding stigmatizing people is more important to psychologists that giving a true diagnosis.

No.

Being politically correct: "I think your daughter may have BPD."

Not being politically correct: "I think your daughter is an egocentric narcissistic btch."

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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2011, 01:05:22 PM »

They recently removed NPD from the DSM, but that doesn't mean that there aren't still thousands of individuals who fit every criteria for that disorder. Labels are not the point, the pattern of behavior speaks for itself. The label is there so that we all know what we're talking about. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me if BPD eventually evolves into two or more separate PDs--the more that I read on this site, as well as other material, the more I see the difference between the higher and lower functioning BPDs as being a fairly significant one.

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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2011, 01:35:43 PM »

This discussions makes me wonder why BPD is like the black sheep of the personality disorders? Maybe the name should be changed.
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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2011, 02:16:32 PM »

I was  divorced from my exwife after 13 years of marriage. A lot had changed through  the years .We tried to keep it together but too much had changed. We shared a child together (now grown) and  for the most part are friends. .That is  INCOMPABILITY !

See my recent post about Strange Validation and myexBPDgf  being in the newspapers for  biting someone .That's Is BPD !

Given there are various degrees of functioning but a lot of psychologists just  don't know that much about BPD.If you with were a raging alcoholic with that be a  lack of compatibility ?
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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2011, 02:27:29 PM »

NO ONE is "compatible" with a person who suffers from BPD.  How can you be "compatible" with a person who's hollow on the inside? And just because a person is a psychologist doesn't mean they aren't ignorant. In this case ignorance meaning this person simply has very little to no diagnostic experience in working with people who suffer from this disorder.

I say this because I'm currently seeing a therapist and she knows very little about BPD. Because of her ignorance I often come sprinting to the BPD family forum because of my therapist's inability to understand what I'm really going through. She thinks my ex is simply a jealous, control freak... .a fluke... .a mistake... .a mishap... .

But that's so the contrary.
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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2011, 02:39:37 PM »

Of course it's a lack of compatibility. You're a reasonable adult, she's a lunatic.    At some point I think we all have to give up the idea of ever being really validated and just move on and own our choices for ourselves. Not saying I'm practicing what I preach, I'm having a difficult time not trying to analyze or fix or convince my uBPDw to go into therapy, but my objective side pretty much knows the score. We are on our own and have to develop the tools and strength to be ok with that.
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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2011, 02:43:43 PM »

I think most of us here have differentiated between incompatible relationships (which I am sure we have all experienced to some degree) and the rollercoaster that is a BPD relationship.

The man I had children with is not BPD. We are no longer a compatible couple. We have had issues. But we are now civil and friendly. We have never together experienced even a 1/3 of the drama I had with BPDexbf. I KNOW I can have a fairly normal healthy relationship, because I have achieved it before.

I can also speak from having a very obviously disordered parent. I don't see how my parent and I were incompatible, NOR am I willing to accept that abuse is just poor parenting, low IQ or any other such nonsense. I was abused by him.  He is mentally ill, disordered, unstable. Label as you will

I am sure others who have a BPD parent or child would probably feel pretty upset by this perception.
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2011, 02:52:30 PM »

I had an interesting discussion with a friend who happens to be a psychologist. He said he does not like to use labels or stigmatise indeviduals.

He felt that BPD is a nebulous condition which may not exist in reality?

I gave him a chance to explain.

He felt that some people are just not compatible and it may this incompatibility that people perceive as BPD.

Personally I didnt agree.

My uBPDw has 7/9 longterm criteria (20 years) from my perspective that I have witnessed. Her emotional immaturity fits.

The knowledge I have picked up here and from SWOE has frequently allowed me to predict my uBPDw patterns of behaviour.

From where I sit and my personal experience it is a very real condition but not all pwBPD are the same.

Psychologist and psychotherapists seem to have completely differing ways of looking at things.

?

Utter craziness, MJJ... .I don't get that psychologist at all? Incompatibility? Please... .
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2011, 03:04:06 PM »

others posted this too - if you hadn't lived it, studied it and been effected - would you believe it?

MY OPINION ONLY ON THIS NEXT PART:

so, pharma & insurance run medical - if there was $$ tied to BPD, we would have a lot more info on it.  Lord knows, we all know about viagara.  However, it seems they are attempting a  rename or rebrand  (WG suggestion) - the bipolar 2 diagnosis could be considered in a similar world as BPD and covered by insurance.

the other problem - many people have a stigma to eastern philosophy and dbt is based in mindfulness which relates to buddhism

lastly, as a culture narcissism is encouraged - look at youtube and reality TV.  we will see more and more PD's until more mindfulness and tolerance is taught to children. 

Back to the post... .

I am sorry MJJ that you were invalidated by someone perceived as a professional.  Funny how 6 months of being on these boards, we know more than 50% of trained therapists on this specific disorder.

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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2011, 03:32:26 PM »

I'm with seeking balance.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

There's no money in it for the money makers and that's why most of us have never heard of this disorder until it's disrupted our lives in a most unpleasant way. We all know about Cialis, Allegra, and all kinds of birth control but very little about many Personality Disorders such as BPD cause there's no associative "pill" cure all.

If there was a pill that our loved ones could swallow you could have sent me on a rocket ship to the last planet in the galaxy to get it for my BPDexbf. I would have done anything in this world to make him better.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2011, 04:10:16 PM »

I, too, am sorry that you were invalidated, that is crazymaking for me, my therapist is familiar with BPD but always would talk about my ex always externalizing blame while I internalized it, I wish she had said she was BPD, but thankfully these boards helped me and my therapist then agreed and validated it.

This board has helped so many which is why I contributed some money, rather pay for validation than invalidation.   

And that is interesting about the insurance companies... .
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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2011, 04:32:15 PM »

The criteria used to put "the label" on someone is a well defined repeating pattern of behavior in close personal relationships. The pattern of behavior is either there or it is not. Is he suggesting that the pattern of behavior is caused by who the BPD choses for their partners? Is this the "they just haven't met the right person yet" theory? I witnessed the changing of the guard for my BPD's parents. When we first met dad was black and mom was white. After spending thanksgiving week with mom and stepdad. Mom went black and dad went white. Has she just not met the right parents yet? Honestly... .the opinion sounds a bit nutty. If he doesn't like the term or calling people mentally ill... .to each his own I guess. But really... .all the label boils down to is describing a repeating pattern of dysfunction in a specific person's personal life.

The suicide rate in people diagnosed with BPD is roughly 10 percent. The overall suicide rate is roughly 12 per 100,000 in the US. The "labeling" is good for identifying people in the most emotional trouble. Hospitals can at least identify the problem and those most at risk. It is sad that we(as a society) don't know how to get most of these people into long term treatment(since that seems to be the only thing that helps them) or that there isn't a magic pill to swallow and make it all go away. Maybe your friend can start a dating site and help them meet the right person?

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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2011, 04:36:12 PM »

I agree with the others that said your friend just hasn't seen it. Unless someone has been there first hand, I don't think they could really ever understand it. It's an insidious disorder to say the least. Granted, I'm sure there is a little bit of that out there - people who think their ex must have something wrong with them, but this is soo different.

 
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« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2011, 04:45:34 PM »

I also disagree, my ex has a long, long, long list of incompatible women in his black book.  If i was this psychologist, i'd perhaps change that statement to "Some people are just not compatible with anyone"  I find it hard to understand why an educated person who makes judgements based on personal/individual behaviours, would come away with a statement like that.

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« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2011, 04:49:56 PM »

I had an interesting discussion with a friend who happens to be a psychologist. He said he does not like to use labels or stigmatise indeviduals.

He felt that BPD is a nebulous condition which may not exist in reality?

I gave him a chance to explain.

He felt that some people are just not compatible and it may this incompatibility that people perceive as BPD.

Personally I didnt agree.

My uBPDw has 7/9 longterm criteria (20 years) from my perspective that I have witnessed. Her emotional immaturity fits.

The knowledge I have picked up here and from SWOE has frequently allowed me to predict my uBPDw patterns of behaviour.

From where I sit and my personal experience it is a very real condition but not all pwBPD are the same.

Psychologist and psychotherapists seem to have completely differing ways of looking at things.

?

With all due respect, tell your friend he's full of it.  It doesn't exist, right.  That's why all of us are so traumatized.  That is why mine threw away a wonderful woman like I was a piece of trash.  That is why he was married to his first wife for six weeks, his second for one year (she is also one of the richest people in our state), that is why he just went out to she his parents and punched out his 75 year old father, got in another fist fight with someone else, and is so dysfunctional that he cannot pay his cell phone bill, get his billing done, etc.
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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2011, 04:51:35 PM »

Psychologist like him are why I try to stay away from them.  I know that I am coming on a little strong right now but I'm going back into my anger phase about all of this.
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« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2011, 05:22:54 PM »

Excerpt
I gave him a chance to explain.

Look on the bright side, at least you didn't have to pay him for his opinion. FWIW, Psychologists are being politically correct in avoiding labels because studies have shown that many women (fewer Men) are being misdiagnosed with Borderline traits after (or during) a cluster B relationship. (*raises hand) IMO, Borderline traits can be acquired and situational due to compatibility with my mirrored self and childhood wounding.

Like everyone else has stated; Borderline is a persistent and unstable sense of self that seeks to attach to others for survival. The attachment becomes a failed solution to a systemic problem, i.e.; the failure to separate/individuate and become an independent human being. For most people who have been in a Borderline relationship, the idealization phase becomes addictive and difficult to maintain, thereby causing some counter-transference back to the Borderline partner that involves fear and control. Carpe the chaos becomes the motto for the relationship. Doesn't matter if it's friendship, romantic or therapeutic- the unstable and distorted perceptions are a belief system to a Borderline.

James Masterson wrote a book about therapists that get blindsided by Borderlines. I'm sure that if your friend stays in business long enough, he's likely to run into one or two. I hope that he isn't too much of a Narcissist to think that his client's "acting out" behaviors are due to his incompatibility with her as her therapist. That would be unprofessional.

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SunflowerFields
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« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2011, 05:47:03 PM »

How well do you know your friend?

Any chance he himself is BPD?
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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2011, 05:51:21 PM »

i agree with oth, and harlemgurl among others.

BPD is an attachment disorder. on one level, they're compatible with almost anyone. we've all met the mirror. on the other hand they're compatible with no one. their needs are impossible to meet, and they cannot meet yours. they can't sustain a healthy relationship because of disordered thoughts, feelings, needs, perceptions and fears.

plus, seriously, how do you find "compatibility" with a person who rages? unless you love to rage or be raged at, which would just be sick, not compatible.
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MindfulJavaJoe
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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2011, 06:08:48 PM »

Can I just say "I did not agree with my friend".

I really believe that unless you have lived it you will never understand it.

I think my friend has their own issues, abusive parent (perhaps why they studied psychology), no stable long term realtionships, insecure at times but othertimes self righteous, somewhat imature emotionally.

They are intelligent but no first hand experience of BPD (unless he has BPD and not told me, might explain his attitude to labels).

I am with you guys.

My uBPDw patterns have been their since I met her 20+years ago. They have not changed only instead of being directed at the outside world she did what I least expected she directed them at me the one person who has always been there for her.

I did not know about BPD until we had agreed to separate. To me this whole thing is like some magical mystery tour.

I feel I still have no idea what happened and yet thanks to bpdfamily I totally understand and can predict her patterns.

Even those who claim to bemental health  professionals can really get it wrong in a big way.


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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2011, 06:18:45 PM »

I feel I still have no idea what happened and yet thanks to bpdfamily I totally understand and can predict her patterns.

I still too feel exactly the same way.

Funny.
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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2011, 08:08:00 PM »



plus, seriously, how do you find "compatibility" with a person who rages? unless you love to rage or be raged at, which would just be sick, not compatible.



THIS IS EXACTLY THE AHA MOMENT FOR ME, HOW CAN I BE CLOSE WITH SOMEONE ANGRY ALL THE TIME! I used to think it was my job to endure it, put out the flames, figure it out, now I know no one does that, it does not produce intimacy it hurts it destroys it.  And when I have lapses this one sentence reality bases me... .
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« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2011, 08:13:52 PM »

Exactly.  The pwBPD is stuck in that sick cycle of making sure people abandon them; whether they hate themselves or whatever... .Yeah, they MAKE themselves incompatible with everyone else.

So to say there is no BPD, only "incompatible issues" is the UNDERSTATEMENT of the year, which is the same as minimizing it.  What is the one thing therapists NEVER do?  Minimize things.

i guess this means your friend sucks in his profession.   Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Idea

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2011, 09:17:53 PM »

Your friend the psychologist is absolutely incorrect. I too am a psychologist and my ex fiancé has BPD. I have trained to treat BPD and those who suffer from r/s with BPDs, and I still got myself involved in an incredibly unhealthy and toxic r/s with one. It is simply impossible to describe. A bit of history on BPD, it was first recognized by Freud, he used the term for those who bordered on the edge of neurosis and psychosis. Over the years and through the evolution of the DSM, the text used to diagnose mental illness, it has morphed into what it has now become. In a convoluted way, your friend is slightly correct. People who have experienced a healthy childhood and successfully made their transitions through the critical mental and emotional developmental milestones and possess significant ego strength would run from a BPD person as quickly as possible. So there is a compatibility aspect. Those of us who do get unhealthily enmeshed with BPDs are also suffering from a mental disorder to some extent. That's the sad part. So, BPD is real, the criteria and symptoms of those diagnosed with it are very clear and diagnosable yet confusing. The real problem, or I guess question is, what do we need to fix in ourselves to help us understand why we would tolerate such degrading behavior for so long and when we get the opportunity to escape, we beg for more. I myself know I am somewhat codependent and as painful as it is to admit, masochistic. After enough therapy and inner healing, whether or not BPD exists is irrelevant. I will be whole person and won't waste my time, money, emotion and energy on a person with BPD. I will recognize it immediately and know instinctively to run and avoid any type of r/s. I'm not quite there yet, but T 3 times a week and tons of internal work is getting me

closer and closer each day. I see my ex as a very sick individual who is not capable of

causing nothing but excruciating pain to whoever does get involved with her. But, her

condition is real and it is called Borderline Personality Disorder. As far as the $ aspect goes,

they can be treated because there are typically other diagnosis that are present that go

hand and hand with BPD that are billable. The real problem is; most psychologists, therapists, whatever refuse to treat people with BPD because they cause the therapist to

suffer greatly and question their ability to perform their profession. We hate to treat them

and most refuse. 
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« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2011, 09:33:04 PM »

Allow T to live it for 13 yrs. Then have him read up on BPD. Watch him post like a madman. Come to think about it. Is it possible he is BPD ? That would make more sense.
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