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THE PSYCHOLOGY OF PERSONALITY DISORDERS
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Author Topic: DIFFERENCES|COMORBIDITY: Borderline and Antisocial Personality Disorder  (Read 29738 times)
sm15000
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« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2011, 05:30:46 PM »

Quote
Sociopaths charm.  Only people with a pleasurable ego are interested in charming ... putting forth a fantastic image...marking themselves as great. The "charmee" is then always put in a lower position in status. Charm is essentially a lie. And it's usually used to pull a fast one

My exUBPDso charmed. . .do you think the narcissistic side associated with high functioning borderline males could do this?  There was another side to him of self-loathing and saying "he wasn't good enough for me" - would sociopaths/anti- social personalities do this?
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« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2011, 05:49:18 PM »

My exBPDbf was the most charming and handsome person I have ever seen. He charmed everyone...especially women, wherever we went.

Yet, he had no friends. And he was WAY UNCOMFORTABLE whenever I complimented him on his looks or intelligence or charm. He also said many times he wasn't good enough for me, but narcissism would then peak through.

I believe he did learn something about his pd in therapy, but strangely he had zero friends.

As far as I know, sociopaths do not feel shame or guilt. The only identity my ex had was fundamentally shame, guilt and worthlessness. Such a waste of good.

M

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Gowest
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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2011, 06:24:03 PM »

I like this one that tiredmommy posted: www.arkancide.com/psychopathy.htm It's clear and easy to understand. My ex scored a mere 14/40 - not a psychopath. But I knew he wasn't. All the things I ticked for him are the symptoms for BPD - irresponsible, poor behavior controls, lying all the time, etc.

My mother scores even lower.

I do have a real sociopath (imo) to compare them with. I think that helps. For example, if I didn't know this guy I might have given my ex 2 points for promiscuous sexual behavior. Ha. No. I still gave him 1 point, but compared to this guy my ex is a monk. (Or Hermit, more accurately.)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 06:29:51 PM by Gowest » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2011, 06:36:42 PM »

Borderlines are not anti-social, they have a tremendous desire to bond with people.  Borderlines fear being alone.  They suffer annihilation fantasies and quickly try to find relief in the rewarding attachment to others.  Their intense fear of being alone causes impulsive attachments- but these are very deeply felt as significant- at least until the attachment becomes persecutorial, which it always does.  This is the crux of the disorder.  The sociopath persecutes others and relishes in his anti-social nature.  The Borderline actually grieves a badly internalized parental persecution.

The (Aspd) sociopath uses every opportunity to screw up and then elicit pity from others- as game play.  He uses pity to win- and he uses others as disposable commodities after they come to his rescue. He knows he is doing wrong and understands that he may get into trouble as it is a part of the game- which has him already factoring in a story for *why he deserves the pity* for when he gets caught.   This is a conscious manipulation that places the Aspd in a one-upmanship.  This also implies he has a sense of himself as smarter than others.  He also feels no remorse because he feels this is his due.

Borderlines don't think they are better than you- they *are* you. They choose other people to define their sense of self.  They are chameleons for attachment survival- not as con jobs.

Whatever you choose to send out to the World to define you- is picked up on and then mirrored back to you by the Borderline - to get your approval- and to bond with you. A sociopath could care less who you are and only whether or not you can be used.  A Borderline actually looks up to you.

Borderlines will retreat into detached protector mode when they are caught in omissions of truth. The detached protector mode does not have a clear understanding of the reasons why the behaviors are unsuitable which generally creates avoidance and passive aggression as defensive styles. The Sociopath knows why the behaviors are unsuitable and takes pride in the knowing.

Consequently, your understanding of your relationship should conclude whether or not this person grew up with a thought process that appears to make them masters of manipulation, keenly trained at evoking a response from others by mirroring the projection.

Since Borderlines are part-time selves- they needed your good to fuse to. And that means that a Borderline will never see you as a whole person, a friend or an ally that can be trusted because they cannot form their own whole self to do so.  Apart from you- they can only flee from their all or none thinking and their bad split of you and re-create the bond with someone else who now represents good.  

Borderline is a repetitious, compulsive, seeking part time self with an inability to suffer through the necessary abandonment depression from their parent who is now badly internalized as a punitive taskmaster who shames them for their fragmented failure to be a "self" without clinging to others and subsequently, hating them.  Idea

In the conclusion of a Borderline relationship- you will be presented (in hindsight) with what was mirrored- and then realize that this was important enough (you projected this *firmly*) to be recognized by the Borderline (a person who survived their childhood by finding their parent's Achilles heel and with that knowledge manipulated (the parent) to give the Borderline what was needed for survival.)  Can this look like anti-social behavior? Only if the attachment bond doesn't exist- Sociopaths don't really get very far with healthy people.

Borderline is different from Aspd as it is a compulsion to acknowledge the deprived self and prove (once and for all) the possibility of a successful real self who is whole and able to be ALONE without others to attach to.  Unfortunately, their annihilation fantasies are too great and they cannot self soothe the abandonment depression- so the cycle starts all over again.

Sociopaths do not worry about being alone, in fact they relish it.

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WalrusGumboot
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« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2011, 07:32:38 PM »

Can this look like anti-social behavior? Only if the attachment bond doesn't exist- Sociopaths don't really get very far with healthy people.

In other words, it is easier to detect a sociopath and to detach. It is a recurring theme here on this forum that those that choose to leave a borderline, including yours truly, have such a hard time getting over the relationship and questioning if the love was real or not. I still have this question. From what you are saying, it IS real, but only for the purpose of helping them define who they are at the time. Am I misunderstanding something?
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2011, 10:57:52 PM »

As a quick observation the sociopath is quite proud of their  manipulation and cruelty.

The BPD  will lie or distort their behaviors so as to look good and the other person involved  to appear as at fault.They never want to be seen as they  really are and lie to everyone including themselves to keep up the false  facade.
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what was never was and never could be

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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2011, 01:11:25 AM »

My ex scores very high on the sociopath checklist, still I don't see her as a sociopath. She was hypersensitive to everything and showed shame, self loath and so on. The external behavior of ASPD and BPD can be very similar, the internal emotions are very different. I also think my ex started to mirror a sociopath (her brother) during the r/s.
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MaybeSo
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« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2011, 12:43:55 PM »

In terms of the impact on me emotionally in the moment, the difference between ASPD or BPD probably didn't matter...if it hurt or created a betrayal bond, it's not good, despite what his underlying motivation was.

However, overall, I hate thinking that he might have been ASPD and not BPD. I believe it was borderline w/ NPD.  If it were just straight up ASPD, and I think back on our history, that would make him a monster.

There was a movie out about 10 years ago called In The Company of Men. I don't remember all if it but the gist of it was, an attractive man tricked an attractive woman Into believing he was seriously courting her and had sincerely fallen in love with her. He did this purposefully for sport, and had another male buddy who was in on the whole thing. He did it for sport, out if boredom, for the sex, for the hell of it and the just cause he knew he could. The woman was attractive but somewhat socially shy due to a hearing loss. So, she had a slight disability that made her a bit vulnerable and he totally exploited her just for s__ts and grins. She believed he loved her, and then when it came out this had all been a huge ruse...well to be honest I don't remember how it ended, the movie was so chilling to me when I saw it years ago I thing a blocked parts of it out.

That to me is the ultimate nightmare.

At times i really felt panicky that this is what went on between my ex and I. If he were pure aspd, this would be the kind of motivation behind his actions. Borderline may feel similarly, but the motivation would be quite different. I choose to believe it was much more borderline. I can't accept the alternative, and I would hope I could over five years know the difference between premeditated cruelty done for pure sport, and a very damaged person desperate to attach but not knowing how.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 12:51:34 PM by MaybeSo » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2011, 08:30:52 PM »

Can this look like anti-social behavior? Only if the attachment bond doesn't exist- Sociopaths don't really get very far with healthy people.

In other words, it is easier to detect a sociopath and to detach. It is a recurring theme here on this forum that those that choose to leave a borderline, including yours truly, have such a hard time getting over the relationship and questioning if the love was real or not. I still have this question. From what you are saying, it IS real, but only for the purpose of helping them define who they are at the time. Am I misunderstanding something?

In another thread, MindfulJavaJoe has an excellent remark on the subject of whether they really loved us:

"My wife never loved me. She formed an attachment with me based on her needs ...  pwBPD are intensely attached but this is not love as we understand it

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=160374.0


What we find in so many clinical overviews of the attachment process that is typical of pwBPD is precisely that, and using another person to try to create a self, attaching to human beings only to satisfy one's own deformed psychic needs isn't, in my opinion, anything we could call "love." I'm with MJJ; it's not real love as we understand it.

As you've perhaps seen in other accounts, "a Borderline will never see you as a whole person"; in a very literal sense, they are usually largely incapable of perceiving others as anything but objects for use in those various internal psychic machinations.

Intersubjectivity (hence, love) can, by definition, only occur between two _selves_; since pwBPD don't, in a sense, have a working self, they aren't capable of intersubjectivity. They can *need* you, quite desperately - but perhaps not unlike someone with a lung ailment needs an oxygen tank, or an amputee their prosthetic. Need doesn't equal love.

That persistent questioning of whether the love was real that can dog nons for an appreciable period of time post-detachment is, as you've seen, very common, and is a natural reaction to the surreal experience of involvement with a pwBPD. Particularly given how instantaneously so many of them go from gushing, hyperbolic "You're the love of my life!" to an absolute blank stare the second the relationship ends. (The 'love lightswitch' as it's sometimes referred to on the boards.)

Many people I've spoken with find accepting that their BPD ex didn't really love them to be one of the most painful hurdles in the recovery process, but others have expressed that once they realized the love was just an illusion, they experienced a freedom and a substantive advance toward full emotional detachment/release. I hope your own journey is going well  Doing the right thing
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Beach_Babe
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« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2011, 07:20:01 PM »

I also think my ex started to mirror a sociopath (her brother) during the r/s.

I never thought of that.
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