4 months NC -- now here we go

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I agree with everything that's been written. Here's a bit of rough advice: change your mind, don't go, don't communicate further with him (you already gave him a win IMO-any communication is a win).

Really, do you really need more information? As you said, it's already been exposed, it's starting to unravel, just  same old stuff in a new package.

Needing more info is a trap too. Whether it comes as honey or vinegar. These folks are masters at dangling just enough information to "hook" us.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... .  

[exbpdgf]

I agree with everything that's been written. Here's a bit of rough advice: change your mind, don't go, don't communicate further with him (you already gave him a win IMO-any communication is a win).

Really, do you really need more information? As you said, it's already been exposed, it's starting to unravel, just  same old stuff in a new package.

Needing more info is a trap too. Whether it comes as honey or vinegar. These folks are masters at dangling just enough information to "hook" us.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... .  

[patientandclear]

For what it's worth, I think it makes sense to go if (i) it will bother you if you don't find out what he wants to say (I find the torture of wondering/not knowing to be more work than knowing & dealing with whatever it is); and/or (ii) you might possibly, under some set of circumstances, be open to continuing your relationship.

NC is a tool.  It is not the goal.  If it gets in the way of serene acceptance of where you end up, it is not helpful.  Sometimes, it does.

It's true that sometimes, needless exposure to pleas and promises, when you know ahead of time you would categorically dismiss them, is unhelpful.  So then, NC is a good tool.  It prevents the tugging and confusion that occurs when you hear pleas you already know you should not respond to.

But sometimes, we need to know.  I think sometimes we can confuse the tool with the goal.  As several veterans on this board observe from time to time, the goal is detachment. NC is a strategy for getting there, but there are others.

Even if you stay connected to this person, a degree of detachment is important.  For me, renewed contact after a period of NC has been helpful in achieving detachment -- I am now dealing with the real person, not the mythical idealized possible partner of my dreams.

My point is just that I don't think that, by seeing him, TF, you are sentencing yourself to "relapse" or make bad decisions.  You quite possibly can see him and still make good decisions.  The question is just whether you are in a place emotionally to manage that.  You probably have a pretty good sense of that yourself, and those of us on this board don't know that as well as you do.

[BleedsOrange]

Really great point, P&C.

[Yolo]

Good Evening bpdfamily.com friends!

It’s been a long week so far, and oddly, not because of the Ex or this ‘opportunity’ that’s been thrust my way.  I’ve been super busy at work, and I’m happy to say, thinking about this has been a low priority.

Myself, you are right... it does seem pretty calculated and manipulative. And I do believe he threw the ‘thanks for trusting me’ thing in there because he knows I don’t trust him.  Maybe it sounds like a recycle attempt, ambi, I don’t know. He hasn’t inquired about my availability (which I know doesn’t matter to a lot of BPDs), but seems he wouldn’t want to put himself out there only to be told that.

ExBPDgf, I thought about writing him to inquire more about the nature, or just call it off.  But I don’t want to lead in about any mental state, true or possibly perceived by him. Less is more.

I guess at first I thought he’d leave me alone till then…not wanting to scare me off, then thought nah, he won’t be able to resist pinging me for an entire 7 days.  Which would give me an opening to get more info or bail.  As it’s looking now, it’s scenario 1 so far.

I didn’t realize that the gal pal had left me a vMail when I missed her call last Friday.  I’m terrible at listening to vMail. Listened last night and she had left me a voice mail.  She seemed very serious, and kind, encouraging me to go and listen to him…but not all giddy. She said she’d just gotten off the phone with him and he told her that he’d written me.  So that put the skids on my vision of the two of them sitting next to each other, conspiring to ‘reel me in’. May have been her own initiative.

On Monday, I too was sort of like, this smells like a ‘trap’!

But you know what, I glanced at Green Mango’s post about the Challenge, and reframing.  I’m not trying to downplay his possible motivation, or what he’s capable of, but if I reframe this, We are broken up. We have been for 4 months.  The way things ended, he is risking MUCH more in terms of rejection than I am.  He has much more at stake than I do really.  He is the one that should be nervous, especially given how it ended.  I shouldn’t be nervous or worried, he should.

This is a coffeeshop, he’s much less likely to get teary or emotional in public…so I can’t see much of a scene.  He ‘says’ he assures me it is not to rehash unresolved matters, no need to get into the past stuff then.  He ‘says’ it isn’t to form a friendship…no need to get into personal details of our separate lives over the last 4 months.  He ‘says’ it isn’t to say things left unsaid, or to make himself feel better.  Those were his assurances.

So... I just need to be mindful, very mindful that if the past comes up, to cut the conversation short and leave.  That crap is over.  Shoot, I can’t even think too much about the past without a wave of nausea.

If it starts to get into details of our now seperate lives, I’m not his friend, and don’t want to hear it, so cut the convo short and leave. 

What I need to remember is that I am NO LONGER  OBLIGATED to him.  That feels good, to reframe in the context of I HAVE the upper hand, not him. He’s lucky I agreed to see him, and if it weren’t for his friend, I may not have.  And I can leave at any point.  We are not together anymore, and I’ll need to care more about my comfort level than his. And not feel GUILTY for cutting a conversation short and politely excusing myself if it is heading in a direction I don’t want. That is freeing to think that.

Boundaries! So this must be what they are…. Hmmm…

I’m glad for the few short exchanges where I could establish that I do not hate him and do not wish him ill and wish him the best.  So that would take the edge off of any ‘bumping into’, which I’ve been dreading since the break up. 

Yes, the curiosity is the hook.  I would always wonder about it.   Knowing how articulate we were in correspondence,  this must be unique where he does feel f2f is necessary. Okay, I’ll try to respect that. Sometimes there are things that are better expressed in person.   He is still a person and I can get that so can go in good faith.  So far, he is being nice and careful.


Going back to my other rationale, if I don’t go, and he is desperate to see me…he can.  I don’t want to be surprised at work or at home.   I read of others rattled by being taken off guard like that, and I myself have also a couple times in the past. I hate that stuff!   I’d much rather take an hour or two of my time and know when and where and hear him out. I don’t want another reason to be paranoid.

I will not, NO WHEY get back into that relationship the way it was.  I will not be tempted by “I was wrong, I’ll change, I’ll treat you better, come back”.  The first 2 times, I heard that, we negotiated and I thought happily compromised on terms,  and by the end of those cycles it all came back to the same entitled, selfish, uncaring crap and him basically abandoning those agreements he entered into with me so enthusiastically in the beginning.  AND blaming me for him not wanting to live in the agreements, it was my fault because of X, Y, and Z,  he isn’t accountable to me yada yada…and poof, they were gone and I was left enmeshed and crushed and wanting out but couldn’t seem to leave.

So this will not be, “I’ll consider it if we this, and you that, compromise”.   With him (and any BPD I guess), if they feel they are doing something for you or because of you…you are an easy scapegoat for blame when they fail.

If it comes down to any of the above, there will be a ‘no, and I’m sorry, but we’ve already tried a few times and a relationship between us has proven to be very unhealthy for me, and probably for you as well’.   And I’ll try to express that I do care for him, but we both deserve healthy relationships.

Leave it like that.  No further justification or explaining (JADE-ing)  and certainly not dredging up the past or insinuating at all that he’s possibly mentally ill, treated me ergregiously and needs to seek help.  He isn’t stupid, by a long shot. ... he was there.  He’d need to come to that conclusion on his own.

This whole *maybe*  he HAS come to that conclusion and is seeking help.  That would be worthwhile listening to since I thought pigs would fly before he’d EVER EVER come to that conclusion, much less pursue therapy.

Since that is such a long shot, I’m not going to hold my breath with that one. In fact, it is all speculation anyway. He may not be angling to get back together or start some ongoing anything so it's kind of moot right now except in being prepared.  Maybe he won the lottery with some ticket we purchased jointly and is honoring it! Yayyyyy! 

It’s going to be awkward anyway.  I’m walking into a coffeeshop to meet up with someone I really didn’t like 4 months ago and not sure I can even get to neutral with even now.  I do feel somewhat detached and disconnected, so it’ll be strange to talk about something serious with someone I feel so disconnected to. Almost like talking to someone a stranger you are uncomfortable with about something ‘serious’.  Weird.

He did honor my request for NC for 4 months. That is an accomplishment I think.  And as PnC said, NC is a tool to be used in order for ME to detach. Not to punish, or make some point.  The person I want to be is mature, and kind, and can keep to boundaries, so this is a good opportunity to exercise that.  Additionally, as SB said earlier, it is also a gage to see how far along I am in the detachment process.  SB also said in another post that sometimes we can go NC and still not make progress disconnecting.  I do want peace of mind... for myself, and for him as well.  If I manage this well, and just stay mindful of MYSELF, there is no need to think of this as some big elaborately constructed manipulative trap, but think of it as another opportunity for growth.  I can try to see it as someone that really would like to see someone else, and is doing what they can under the circumstances to get a moment of face time.  Not entirely sure any of us wouldn’t do the same thing, or at least consider the best approach if we wanted someone’s ear who may not give it to us. 

Don’t know that I’ll ever ever get to the point with that Ex as PnC has though …that’s some very patient ongoing radical acceptance right there!  Hat’s off to getting to that point, PnC. Your name says it all.

Sorry for being so wordy.  I’ll let ya’ll know how it goes Sunday.  Anything other than ‘I’m sick, seeking help’ will bring me right back to this Board.  A little wiser I hope.  The tools on Staying will be useful no doubt, (though the name of the Board is intimidating). 

Much love to you all! Back to catching up on a weeks worth of domestic chores *sigh*

[Yolo]

Happy Tuesday everyone!

I know everyone has been waiting with baited breath …okay probably not, but just in case there was a lingering “WELL, how did the story end?” thought out there I’m back to tell you, it isn’t ending, it’s being rewritten. It seems as though I’ll be spending quite a bit of time on the Staying board now.

I showed up, a little late, but feeling overall calm. He had my coffee ready and a spot outdoors picked out.  I was a bit surprised at seeing him I didn’t start testing the strength of my antiperspirant. He looked very dashing, but still…I felt I still had a very strong resolve.  He asked for a hug... and oops a little resolve slipping, or maybe it was relief from the tension.  It’d been 4 months after a pretty wicked ugly ending, so I felt much more comfortable after that.

And so he starts to talk…begins with “Fate, I want to thank you so much for what you did in September…”

Oh boy, here we go…ExBPDgf was right!  He’s gunna tell me he moved on and found the most precious thing ever and if it weren’t for me he’d never have got his act together and met her.  My head… ‘you keep talking mister so I can wish you luck and get my ass home to fume’.

And he does keep talking.  About how I was actually a crutch for him, I made it easy for him to continue on a destructive path, and until I broke that crutch could he really see the magnitude of what he’d done,  his own dysfunction,  and what he was possibly losing. He’d done a lot of journaling and looking at himself and his role in that mess. (Offered to show me too!)  There was a lot of owning up, a couple tears, admitting to baggage stemming from his estranged relationship with his mom, and his prior marriage, and sincere apologies.

So, in a way, PnC, you were correct to this point.  And although we’d tossed around that possibility here, the reality of listening to him expressing his thoughts like this was a bit surreal given, well, it just never happened like this…maybe the first time we got back together there was an aire of deep reflection and responsibility….I was in shock at how well he laid it out for me—in person.  Well, that kind of made in person meeting worth it!

We talked about that a while then….SeekingBalance, you were correct, with a huge shocking twist.  He did make the grand gesture to marry me, had the exquisitely beautiful rings, kneeled before me the whole shebang.  His proposal was really quite amazing and heartfelt.  Again, something we hypothesized about here, tho I truly didn’t really ‘believe’ would happen because he’s been Never-Getting-Married-Again-Over-My-Dead-Body for the entire relationship. 

Heres the huge shocking twist (for me), he also said he wanted a “Normal, Monogamous,  Exclusive, Committed” marriage with me.  For those that don’t know my backstory, we spent the lions share of that relationship navigating the choppy waters of an open relationship since the very beginning. Emotionally monogamous, but allowed to see other people.  He’d always proclaimed that ‘This train don’t go to monogamy-ville’.  I was flabbergasted that he was saying he was done with that disorganized playground.

I didn’t know what to say, I really didn’t.  Dear in Headlights=Me.   He’d managed to take ownership of a lot of emotional spaghetti, he managed to apologize, he proposed, and HE was insisting on M.E.C (monog,exclusive,committed).  

You know what, I believe him, every last word.  So, I said yes, but it’s conditional on both of us working on our own issues and how we interact,  our interactions always seemed to end in ways that were toxic for me, and it isn’t just going to go away because we ‘decide’ to make it go away.  We both need to do our work, or it isn’t going to work.  We will be meeting tomorrow to discuss our options / plan for structured work, therapy, counseling.  The fact he was all in with that as well is somewhat unbelievable to me.

We haven’t spent a lot of time talking about dates but he was ready to do it right then.  I think we both know we have a ton of work to do and will need a substantial amount of time to see progress and rebuild trust.

Wow, so yep, there you have it.  I am still processing it all….I went in expecting God knows what kind of exchange with someone I never thought I’d even like again…to rediscovering my love for him.      I have a reserved enthusiasm,  tentative but excited as it really does seem his intentions are real and he’s willing to pull his weight to make this work.

 

So, Staying Board, here I come.  The upcoming months will be very telling—actions speak louder than words, in my heart of hearts, I know he would not lay all of this out for me like this if he weren’t dead serious.  I was never going to go back into that relationship the way it was, shuddered at the thought.  He seems to have turned a corner and wants something entirely different from what it ‘was’.  I certainly didn’t have this much hope the last time we got back together…in fact I felt hopeless but also powerless. 

This seems like the right thing to do…I’d always wonder if I made a huge mistake by not taking this leap of faith.

I’ve already received a ginormous heap of intervention from a couple of my friends (not all of them).  My sister actually posted on my FB wall “WOW. Is this an awful joke?”... he is fully aware I’m nervous and of where the resistance comes from and is taking it in stride and understands he has a lot of work to do to prove himself to me and my close friends/family and also to repair our relationship and ourselves.

*GULP*  If this is wishful thinking then I feel I'm basing it on something different... .  time will tell.

I got a receipt for my agreement with him yesterday.  Ok, he’s a developer and was having a bit of fun with it. 

------------------------------------------------------

We here at the Us team would like to thank for your your recent upgrade to Us 2.0. Us 2.0 is a ground up redesign from the original Us 1.0 family of products, including Us 1.0, Us 1.1, Us 1.2, and the notoriously unstable Us 1.3. We acknowledge some of our users may have had troubles with these earlier releases of the Us system, but we are confident that the new product you have recently acquired will fulfill the Us promise of a smooth operation in your business and/or home. As you take a tour of the Us 2.0 system, you will notice that the new Reach Out feature is available from anywhere in the system and we encourage our users to familiarize themselves with it, as it is one of the best ways to ensure a smooth transition from earlier versions of Us. Here on the Us team, we strive to deliver the highest quality product and are dedicated to ensuring your continued happiness and productivity.

[seeking balance]

We talked about that a while then….SeekingBalance, you were correct, with a huge shocking twist. 

if only everyone would realize this... .  

seriously, commit to the communication skills, lessons and boundaries offered by the stayers.  There are some amazing people over there.

Peace and Congratulations -

SB

[GreenMango]

Holy Smokes, I've never actually heard this happening before the full admission and the proposal all rolled up into one.  I've heard of the admissions or the let's get married.  I do think its a good that you are taking it slow to let him show you and are a still a little skeptical until you've seen more (I'd be worried if you weren't) ... .  I also agree with SeekingBalance on going to staying and work those tools.

On a serious note, we can often look for help when things are bad; but the tools on staying work better when you start early before the crisis points and utilize them from the beginning.  They are good skills to master for any relationship.  So don't wait on heading over there and introducing yourself.

Put that best foot forward by being proactive... .  and Congratulations.  Wishing you well and drop by to say hi whenever. 

[HardTruth]

Hi TF. Thanks for the update!  Yes, I wanted to know how the story ended!

Despite all his triangulating (read definition), he could recognize that you are a special, quality person.  In his mind, he perhaps wanted to make people replaceable, but you are not.

I am a little worried that there are so many grand gestures with just 4 months of reflection.  I don't think I could grow from being a person who wanted the freedom of multiple partners to one that desired the intimacy and vulnerability of monogamy in that time period, but that's just me.  I am a little suspicious because I think he knows what he would need to tell you in order to have a chance of getting you back.  What many of us want - monogamy, commitment, the acknowledgement that you are the one and no one else. 

I am glad to hear that he acknowledged where he went wrong, and that he recognizes that work, counseling needs to be done. 

My advice is to not hand your heart over to him.  To let him prove to you that his actions will meet his words.  How good was he at making his actions meet his words in the past?  Be on the lookout to see if he is really doing this or not.  Be discriminating.  Trust yourself, and not him until some time has passed and you can see that he's made and is making a deep change.  Not just for you, or to get you back, but for himself.  Does that make sense?

Good luck to you. You deserve all the things he has offered you.  I hope that he is truly up to giving those things to you

[Tausk]

I wish you the best.  When i recycled with my ex after four months (which is when poster 2010 says the greatest urge to recycle occurs), it was also because through some therapy and DBT she said that she had changed.  She talked about respecting boundaries, taking responsibility, watching her emotions... .  And at first it seemed to be better.

But I was a trigger for her and in the end we ended up even more destructive and me even more lost.  I realize that being apart was the motivation for my ex to get better.  Getting back together stopped the motivation for both of us as we got lost in the idolization. 

Perhaps one question to ask is: will my re-engagement with my ex derail his recovery.  People in substance abuse recovery are told to stay away from r/s for at least a year.  And a r/s in early recovery is the most common way that people lose any initial recovery.  For us it's even more difficult, because the drug in this addiction is relationships.

Honestly, four months of therapy is a drop in the bucket as far as real recovery for the BPD is concerned.  It's a drop in the bucket for the "nons" and we're supposed to be the ones without the disorder.  So it's a long hard road.  The vast majority of BPD, in fact almost all, don't get real recovery.  They may get to the point where the acting out is lessened, but the baseline disorder remains unless a real psychic break occurs.

My friendship/recycle cost me an additional year of recovery, and more in terms of getting back what I lost.  Worse yet, with all relapses for any addict, we do not go the place from the perspective of having a lot of recovery, very quickly we can move to the place where we would have been if we had never left. 

I wish you the best, but I'd say keep coming to the board. 

[HardTruth]

Schroder's Piano - great post, thx.  I didn't know that about the 4 months.  It has taken me years of T to change some of my fundamental beliefs that are unconscious and result in knee-jerk reactions when confronted with a trigger.

TF - In this process, in my process,  I am often reminded of one of your other threads where you gave a definition of Compassion, which was something like, Empathy for a another coupled with a desire to take action to alleviate their suffering. 

This is baseline.  I can't believe how many times I have bypassed this and overlooked this in relationship.  In favor of passion, companionship, or whatever.  If he doesn't do this, the relationship he has to offer you isn't good enough for you. 

Just my 2 cents