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Author Topic: BPD's misery and refusal to do anything about it despite their intelligence...  (Read 13031 times)
Maryiscontrary
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« Reply #90 on: January 21, 2013, 05:23:18 PM »

In order to understand the concept of selfishness resulting from trauma, we need to look no further than Kurt Goldstein, the father of modern neurology, who studied countless injured soldiers during WWI.

When an organism suffers an injury for which their survival to adapt is jeopardized, the so called  catastrophic response happens. This is pure anxiety, which is fear without a discernible object to fight or run away from. So you don't know who the proverbial enemy is. Full end panic attack.

When a person is under this state, he has to become more self centered to survive... .  there is no room for altruism. When a person has a stroke, they have to be selfish in order to try to regroup and rehabilitate. They are concentrating on speech therapy, not on world peace.

When an organism is under stress, there is a tendency for selfishness. This is the stress response of the limbic structure, and not a left and right hemisphere issue.

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bb12
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« Reply #91 on: January 21, 2013, 05:52:53 PM »

Great set of articles Pretty Please

My own question in this... .  having asked my ex if he suffered abuse as a child and being told no, where does spoiling sit in the physiological analysis?

Not exactly a specific trauma, but perhaps the deprivation or disallowance of personal development.

My own suspicion is that Gen Y are presenting NPD/ BPD characteristics in an unprecedented increase on previous generations. Education systems and indulgent parenting are setting them up to clash with the real world, as they are being told they are amazing all of the time. I read about one school not awarding medals for the 100m dash because they didn't like to use terms like first, second or third. They didn't want individual achievement to make the slower runners feel bad. What the?

My own exBPD had a privileged childhood and I suspect was very spoilt. Natural clashes in adult r/ships were met with sulking, tantrums, moodiness, sighs, harumphs etc...

Love to get your thoughts on the neuropathways and possible associated brain make-up in this scenario

bb12  
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FoolishOne
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« Reply #92 on: January 21, 2013, 06:02:29 PM »

PrettyPlease and Mary... .  good stuff there! Really.  You are providing a nice service to us with a certain knowledge deficit on these sorts of things... .  My only education has been the school of hard knocks with a BPD.  Lots of field research.

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PrettyPlease
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« Reply #93 on: January 21, 2013, 10:33:49 PM »

My own exBPD had a privileged childhood and I suspect was very spoilt. Natural clashes in adult r/ships were met with sulking, tantrums, moodiness, sighs, harumphs etc...

Love to get your thoughts on the neuropathways and possible associated brain make-up in this scenario

bb12

bb12 - Interesting possibility, but I have no experience with it, and I don't recall seeing a reference to it in any of the papers I posted above or others that I read. But those were from 15 years ago; maybe something exists now? Not sure.

I will say that getting familiar with the PubMed interface was one of the more interesting steps I took, and I recommend it to anyone. After only a little practice with the keyword search interface there you can get dozens of abstracts on a topic from current journals, and sometimes full text online of the entire article. This is basic research and reviews by specialists, so you have to be prepared to look up words you don't understand. But the Internet makes that a piece of cake. Why when I was a boy we had to walk barefoot 15 miles in a snowstorm over broken glass to get a medical dictionary. Smiling (click to insert in post) 

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed

PP
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PrettyPlease
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« Reply #94 on: January 21, 2013, 11:08:21 PM »

Ah, this one was for PDs in general

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22789412

Of course people who are stressed engage in risky behaviors. But when you add suicide to the mix, this jacks up the stats than for those just obese and/or who smoke.

Having a mental illness, including a PD, greatly increases you odds of dying in your 50s (on average).

Hi Maryiscontrary

Interesting, but that one is for people who are residents in medical services. This makes it hard to generalize to people who are not incarcerated in the medical system.

Coincidentally, I just happened to be half-way through reading a paper about this subject --  "Cohort Studies: Selection Bias in Observational and Experimental Studies" (Ellenberg; Statistics in Medicine, 1994) -- and the first example is almost exactly this situation:

"Element: Entrance into the health care system; Study type: Prevalence"

"There are myriad reasons why subgroups of patients do not seek medical care. Inability to pay, geographic location of appropriate facilities, level of disease severity, social constraints, employment considerations, religious beliefs etc. all play a role in determining who does and who does not enter the health care system. The disease itself will confound the issues involved... .  "

They go on, with their example, to show how the result of the study gives data that are demonstrably widely different from a similar study that uses the entire population.

PP

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Wooddragon
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« Reply #95 on: January 22, 2013, 05:15:11 AM »

However, there is one point that I’m unclear on, and that is the relationship between ‘dysregulation’ and either the self/other shift or the self-soothing need. In other words, how close are the BPD people to ‘normal’ when they are not dysregulated? Do these things only come into play during dysregulation? Or are they there all the time — and normalcy is an act, a pretense?

My own answer at present is that BPD is a spectrum disorder —  it will be caused in different ways in different people, and to different degrees depending on many factors, including where a child is in a particular developmental window of brain growth when abuse occurs. So it may be that some BPDs are capable of actually being more or less normal when not dysregulated (ie, most of the problem will be concept #1, a shift to selfishness that happens during dysregulation). Whereas others, worse, will be unhappy and shifted into #1 all the time, and spend most of their effort seeking help for #2, self-soothing.

PP



yes! and i think this is what makes it so confusing for those of us caught up in it! - im still not sure where mine was on the spectrum, but he needed a high degree of organisation, lists, everything in the right place etc etc simply to function on a day to day basis.  he was aware of this and also that he was NQR (not quite right).  the rages, "accidental" ___ty comments etc would always occur when he was relaxing (often drinking) and his guard was down.  generally, as long as he was functioning within a very precise and ordered framework he could operate and interact apparently normally.  but as soon as he was pushed outside that (things not going as planned, people not behaving the way he would prefer etc) he would become very tense and upset. 

so for mine, i think normalcy was him doing the best he could with the tools he had but with an awareness and anxiety that things could go wrong at any time... .  

thank you PP and Newton for your responses.  and everyone else on this thread   
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Diana82
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« Reply #96 on: January 22, 2013, 05:35:56 AM »

My ex is an intellect... won a phD scholarship... a complete high achiever...

And she actually did see a therapist 3 times during our rship. She told me one day she is finding it hard to get up in the mornings because of depression. And she said its due to thinking about her childhood bullying experiences.

I always found it a bit weird how she suddenly thought about the bullying... maybe being with me triggered the memories... :/

But I'm not sure those 3 sessions did anything. She never really told me what happened other than the sessions were "very raw" and she'd start to cry after.

3 sessions wouldn't have been enough to help my ex anyway! She needs a course of therapy.

I guess she recognised she had issues but didn't commit to ongoing therapy. She continued to feel lonely, isolated, fearful of abandonment, anxious etc. and she continued to cut others out of her life without remorse.

I think the 3 sessions did zilch!

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Wooddragon
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« Reply #97 on: January 22, 2013, 05:53:11 AM »

Mine has a doctorate as well but struggles in the work environment with people and issues that he can't control
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Diana82
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« Reply #98 on: January 22, 2013, 06:01:59 AM »

wooddragon>> interesting...

my ex got a job straight out of uni as a Graduate Lawyer but only lasted 1 year there. She said she couldn't handle it... the personalities... the stress... .  the menial work etc... I think she once said she thought she'd have a meltdown.

I get the feeling because her head is so heavy already... she finds it difficult to function in stressful jobs. Esp law...

Even when she was doing honours, she always had to go for short 'breaks' out of town because she was run down. She was run down more than the average 26 year old should be...

I remember I too was in a stressful job but she seemed to just always need to have holidays. She was a hard worker... a perfectionist... so maybe this is also what drove her into burning out

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BentNotBroken
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« Reply #99 on: January 22, 2013, 09:16:42 AM »

Interesting to note my BPDexGF is a PhD also. I was with her for 15+ years, all the way from start of Masters program through end of PhD. Almost immediately after getting PhD, pregnant, then discards me shortly after baby was born.

Used me until there was no further need for me. A baby is the perfect hedge against abandonment--A baby can't leave until they are a teenager at the earliest.
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PrettyPlease
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« Reply #100 on: January 22, 2013, 12:32:56 PM »

Used me until there was no further need for me. A baby is the perfect hedge against abandonment--A baby can't leave until they are a teenager at the earliest.

Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Great. I mean, wow how terrible.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

And  Idea from an evolutionary perspective it might be a tidy way for a gene self-propagating: I mean, to the degree that BPD is genetically-based, then the fear of abandonment, and it being solved this way, increases the number of offspring; whereas many of the other BPD traits would seem to decrease the effectiveness and efficiency of child-raising and so would work in the other direction. Just idle speculation of course... .  until we can get our hands on some gene sequencing equipment... .     

PP
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BentNotBroken
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« Reply #101 on: January 22, 2013, 03:52:10 PM »

I don't think the genes themselves have any intelligence in the matter. It is a very Darwinian type of Natural Selection though. The BPDs that are extremely low functioning don't survive long enough to reproduce, or are unable to parent the child long enough to perpetuate the next generation of dysfunction. On the other hand the High functioning BPDs are able to somewhat thrive despite the dysfunction.

I believe that there is a spectrum of disorder where the Highest functioning outliers appear almost normal most of the time, and the lowest functioning end up institutionalized or taking their own lives early on.

I have a former friend that I suspect may be BPD. She has isolated herself in a self-imposed exile from the rest of humanity other than when she goes to work. It is quite sad, but probably better than what she was doing in her earlier years. The last time I spoke with her, I suggested DBT for her sexual abuse trauma issues that she had previously shared with me. She shut down completely and cut off all contact. I wonder if she suspected I was aware of her BPD.
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GreenMango
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« Reply #102 on: January 22, 2013, 04:14:49 PM »

Staff only

Hi Folks this thread has reached its maximum page count so we are locking it up.

Thanks for participating and hope to see you on the boards.
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