When they remember differently...

[almost789]

I just asked this on the leaving board. I'm shocked how many have the same issues with this. I've usually argued in the past. Once time I argued and he said. 'your right" shocking as that may seem. Perhaps he's more high functioning, i don't know. But since he split me I don't expect he'd ever say "your right" again unless he unsplit me. I'm leaving, but I'm not fully convinced he won't be back, not that I would take him back and be in a "relationship" with him, but I would communicate with him and wouldn't want to make things worse. It looks like we're just suppose to go "ok uh huh"... .  that's hard... .  to agree to lies... .  or things you know are false. Couldn't that backfire as well? If you agree, couldn't they say something like... see... .  I told you... .  is there any other ways?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Go Fish]

Yes, same here. The thing that bothers me is he says these lies or exaggeration in front of our kids, usually making up something about my family or stringing together incidents that make them look bad, and making outrageously positive comments about his own family which has had it's own share of mental illness, unfit parenting, legal problems, etc. I don't touch that, but I hate that the kids hear this stuff. I quietly deny it them leave the room. Wish they knew how to stop.

[cal644]

I like that comment about family.  My UBPDW loved my family more than hers - she considered my parents her parents and had absolutely nothing to do with her family.  Now since I turned black - her family is the best ever, they are the only ones that really love her!  Mine are now horrible and the worst of the worst ... .  where hers beat her, abused her,and mine showed her true love and compassion... .  hmmm talk about imaging things!

[goldylamont]

My uBPDh can invent a completely different version of a conversation we had in the past to "prove" that I did something wrong or he didn't do something wrong.  He's adamant that his version is correct, saying that he should record our conversations so that he can play them back for me!  I often wish our lives were on DVR so we could just rewind and replay something that happened earlier, because it's so frustrating that these misunderstandings happen all the time.  But in reality, no matter what we do or say or don't do or say, it will be misconstrued.  No way around it.

  Daylily

watch out what you wish for Daylily--my exBPDgf actually recorded our arguments, without my knowledge, onto her iphone. i think she would then play these back when she painted me black to hate me more? i dunno. somehow i figured out she was recording me though and just thought it was silly. i didn't think about it for a while. then, a few weeks/days later we were arguing. i made sure to stay calm, no name calling or anything even though i was angry--but she kept pushing the issue. i tried to walk away and she kept pursuing saying really mean things. i started feeling that she was forcefully trying to get me to blow up... .  then i look and see she's carrying her iphone. SHE WAS PURPOSEFULLY INSTIGATING THE ARGUMENT AND TRYING TO GET ME TO SAY SOMETHING TERRIBLE SO THAT SHE COULD RECORD IT AND PROVE HOW HORRIBLE I WAS! I called her out on it and as soon as i did, argument over. but i was really hurt by that. who does that? your partner may already be recording you... .  who knows... .  

[waverider]

As long as YOU know the truth, notes and journals are good for YOUR purposes only to avoid gaslighting and self doubt

You dont always have to be seen to be right.

Usually less is more, and often a simple smile in response is enough. Even when they are undermining you to someone else. It is not your problem, unless you let it be, that is your CHOICE.

You dont have to overvalidate, do only as much as is effective, it is a choice not an obligation, and can come across as patronizing if you attempt more than feels right

Keep these things in mind and your frustration and resentment will be much less. Which is what we are aiming for. Peace of mind is better than proving to be right.

[daylily]

watch out what you wish for Daylily--my exBPDgf actually recorded our arguments, without my knowledge, onto her iphone. i think she would then play these back when she painted me black to hate me more? i dunno. somehow i figured out she was recording me though and just thought it was silly. i didn't think about it for a while. then, a few weeks/days later we were arguing. i made sure to stay calm, no name calling or anything even though i was angry--but she kept pushing the issue. i tried to walk away and she kept pursuing saying really mean things. i started feeling that she was forcefully trying to get me to blow up... .  then i look and see she's carrying her iphone. SHE WAS PURPOSEFULLY INSTIGATING THE ARGUMENT AND TRYING TO GET ME TO SAY SOMETHING TERRIBLE SO THAT SHE COULD RECORD IT AND PROVE HOW HORRIBLE I WAS! I called her out on it and as soon as i did, argument over. but i was really hurt by that. who does that? your partner may already be recording you... .  who knows... .  

First of all, in my country and state, it's illegal to record someone without their permission, except in certain circumstances that don't seem applicable here.  But I digress.  Interesting that she was recording herself saying mean things to YOU in an attempt to get you on tape saying mean things to HER.  But I'm sure she wasn't thinking that way.  pwBPD will twist things around to suit their needs.

What's a little interesting is that your post made me think that it might actually help me to presume that he's recording me.  That way, I'll be on my "best behavior" all the time and make sure I use the tools instead of making things worse!  Although I hope someday to progress to the point some of the others on this site have reached, where I don't even have to think about it anymore, I'm not there yet.  I still escalate things at times and I can't say that I validate nearly enough.

Keep these things in mind and your frustration and resentment will be much less. Which is what we are aiming for. Peace of mind is better than proving to be right.

Oh, Wave, you are so wise.      This is the key.  But it's so hard for me to sit back while misinformation is lurking out there.  I am extremely detail oriented and I'm prone to correct the smallest of errors.  Not to mention that injustice causes a discomfort in me that makes me want to do everything in my power to correct it.  This doesn't translate well to my relationship with my uBPDh. 

  Daylily

[Themis]

Ok. When I came to this forum I came from a loving place.

But just last night he did a new kind of mind game he never did before.

He took all the splitting and cutting off/painting black/mean actions he did and basically said I said/did them!

It melted my brain so much that he switched around everything he said so that I was the one being cruel.

He really hurt my feelings the other night, then last night he re-told the story that I said many mean things.

He then claimed that I didn't remember what I said. I have an excellent memory!

So as you can tell, I am not pandering to him, I feel angry. :breath:

I then blurted out that I didn't want to speak to him unless I have a way to record our conversations as this is just crazy.

I know that was the wrong thing to say, but what am I meant to do? Just take it?

I really do wish I could videotape him, because that is just crazy and it makes me feel like I'm losing my mind.

I don't like this as in my original post said he is a moderate BPD, but since his most dramatic split things have taken a nasty turn.

I don't want nasty. i don't want to be in a war like this. I want a stable way of handling this switch-a-roo.

Deep down under my anger I really, really want to do the best by him, and be mature.

[Chosen]

My usual technique on that one was pretty blunt. "It isn't fair to tell me what I'm thinking." was on the polite side for me I guess I made a boundary of I won't discuss it with you when you are telling me what is in my mind. But I had to--this stunt would set me off pretty quickly.

Let me quote something similar that I have used on numerous occasions.  I would say, "I realise you are feeling x and you think I did x.  It is ok if that's what you feel, I won't try to change that.  However, what I did/ think is actually x.  I'm not saying you have to change your views but don't put words into my mouth and claim I said it."

This works.  It's because I have validated him, but also stated the truth (so an elaborate version of SET), and I told him I am not trying to change him so he can't argue with that.  And my boundary is "I know my truth, I will not change it".

[arabella]

My usual technique on that one was pretty blunt. "It isn't fair to tell me what I'm thinking." was on the polite side for me I guess I made a boundary of I won't discuss it with you when you are telling me what is in my mind. But I had to--this stunt would set me off pretty quickly.

Let me quote something similar that I have used on numerous occasions.  I would say, "I realise you are feeling x and you think I did x.  It is ok if that's what you feel, I won't try to change that.  However, what I did/ think is actually x.  I'm not saying you have to change your views but don't put words into my mouth and claim I said it."

This works.  It's because I have validated him, but also stated the truth (so an elaborate version of SET), and I told him I am not trying to change him so he can't argue with that.  And my boundary is "I know my truth, I will not change it".

It's so tricky, isn't it? I think it depends on how the other person's mind works. I do tend to go with a "I'm sorry that I've said something to cause you to feel that way, that wasn't my intention. However, you do not get to tell me what I think." (Assuming I'm in a good mental state - otherwise he just gets the "you don't get to tell me what I think" bit before I make my escape. haha) I've tried the "I realise you are feeling x and you think I did x." but I get the "I don't THINK that - you SAID that" It's nuts. So, yeah, it really depends on your particular pwBPD's mode of thinking. In any event, I think the key is to avoid being 'lit up'!  

[Chosen]

I've tried the "I realise you are feeling x and you think I did x." but I get the "I don't THINK that - you SAID that" It's nuts. So, yeah, it really depends on your particular pwBPD's mode of thinking. In any event, I think the key is to avoid being 'lit up'! 

Oh, I get that a lot too.  He will say "That's not what I'm FEELING, that's a FACT."  Then I will tell him "I understand you see it as a fact.  I'm not trying to change your mind.  However, the fact for me is x."  Same story really- they may get mad because you don't change your mind and agree with them, but they can't blame you for forcing your version of the "truth" on them!

[waverider]

Ok. When I came to this forum I came from a loving place.

But just last night he did a new kind of mind game he never did before.

He took all the splitting and cutting off/painting black/mean actions he did and basically said I said/did them!

It melted my brain so much that he switched around everything he said so that I was the one being cruel.

He really hurt my feelings the other night, then last night he re-told the story that I said many mean things.

He then claimed that I didn't remember what I said. I have an excellent memory!

So as you can tell, I am not pandering to him, I feel angry. :breath:

I then blurted out that I didn't want to speak to him unless I have a way to record our conversations as this is just crazy.

I know that was the wrong thing to say, but what am I meant to do? Just take it?

I really do wish I could videotape him, because that is just crazy and it makes me feel like I'm losing my mind.

I don't like this as in my original post said he is a moderate BPD, but since his most dramatic split things have taken a nasty turn.

I don't want nasty. i don't want to be in a war like this. I want a stable way of handling this switch-a-roo.

Deep down under my anger I really, really want to do the best by him, and be mature.

I'm sure most of us have experienced that. Sometimes it goes up once you start changing your patterns of behavior away from enabling. This change is seen as a threat and so it triggers excessive outbursts

[laelle]

I know exactly what you mean.

I was being treated severely harsh at the time.  Some of the things my bf said to me stopped me in my tracks and I could do nothing but go to bed and cry.  The gaslighting, the rage.  It was abusive.

I told him so.

The next argument I get a NASTY letter telling me how abusive I am to him.  How I use him as a punching bag.  I get it now, but back then I could just stare with my mouth open like this.   

[Grey Kitty]

Yeah, changing the rules toward healthy behavior makes a pwBPD initially very uncomfortable and brings up worse behaviors.

If this is new to you, read up on extinction bursts and projection in the lessons.

I remember stumbling onto projection before I found these boards--it seems like my wife was accusing me of things that I wasn't doing... .  and they were things she WAS doing. It seemed strange... .  but the pattern made me start to wonder. Then I started thinking to myself: Hmm... .  If I get unfounded accusations of something, perhaps I should check into whether she is doing it even though I didn't know about it yet.

When I read up on it, things became much clearer to me.

[laelle]

I know I blame everyone around me for not keeping the house clean when its really myself I want to yell at for it.

I dont try hard enough.  Could that be me projecting my failures on to my family?

[Themis]

Yeah, changing the rules toward healthy behavior makes a pwBPD initially very uncomfortable and brings up worse behaviors.

If this is new to you, read up on extinction bursts and projection in the lessons.

I remember stumbling onto projection before I found these boards--it seems like my wife was accusing me of things that I wasn't doing... .  and they were things she WAS doing. It seemed strange... .  but the pattern made me start to wonder. Then I started thinking to myself: Hmm... .  If I get unfounded accusations of something, perhaps I should check into whether she is doing it even though I didn't know about it yet.

When I read up on it, things became much clearer to me.

Thank you. I wish there were a way to save member names that gave answers/links so I can keep track of the helpful things they say and answers.

It took me a while to remember Grey Kitty" I was thinking Grey Cat... .  said something helpful, where was it again?

:-)

Thanks. Have to go now for today.

[waverider]

I know I blame everyone around me for not keeping the house clean when its really myself I want to yell at for it.

I dont try hard enough.  Could that be me projecting my failures on to my family?

That depends if it is really your fault or whether you are feeling like it is your fault (compensating or taking on a feeling of responsibility) when it isnt. You need a clear idea of what is your responsibility and what isn't. You also need to accept what is possible and what is not. To simply draw a 50/50 responsibility line with a pwBPD is unlikely to be achievable.

We all do it to some degree, that is human. But it is not your only way of dealing with your frustrations, then it would be a problem.

As a result of learning how to deal with a pwBPD you will learn a lot about human interactions, especially your own. This is one of the ways it helps YOU to be a better and more mindful person. By learning about projection you will be less likely to do it.

[MakeItHappen]

As a result of learning how to deal with a pwBPD you will learn a lot about human interactions, especially your own. This is one of the ways it helps YOU to be a better and more mindful person. By learning about projection you will be less likely to do it.

amen waverider!

[Tigerabbit]

Oh, I get that a lot too.  He will say "That's not what I'm FEELING, that's a FACT."  Then I will tell him "I understand you see it as a fact.  I'm not trying to change your mind.  However, the fact for me is x."  Same story really- they may get mad because you don't change your mind and agree with them, but they can't blame you for forcing your version of the "truth" on them!

Oh my gosh, yes... .  I've gotten this exact same kind of thing. Crazy making for sure... .  I've always been at a loss for words when he says something like that. I like the example you gave for how to respond. Another thing I've found helps, which I guess is just a form of validation, is admitting the possibility that I did say it how he remembers it (I'm human too and don't remember things accurately all the time, either, so I think it's healthy to be able to admit that possibility anyway), and then saying "I don't remember saying that, but if I did I'm very sorry that I said something hurtful and it was wrong."

[goldylamont]

Oh, I get that a lot too.  He will say "That's not what I'm FEELING, that's a FACT."  Then I will tell him "I understand you see it as a fact.  I'm not trying to change your mind.  However, the fact for me is x."  Same story really- they may get mad because you don't change your mind and agree with them, but they can't blame you for forcing your version of the "truth" on them!

Oh my gosh, yes... .  I've gotten this exact same kind of thing. Crazy making for sure... .  I've always been at a loss for words when he says something like that. I like the example you gave for how to respond. Another thing I've found helps, which I guess is just a form of validation, is admitting the possibility that I did say it how he remembers it (I'm human too and don't remember things accurately all the time, either, so I think it's healthy to be able to admit that possibility anyway), and then saying "I don't remember saying that, but if I did I'm very sorry that I said something hurtful and it was wrong."

oh yeah, can definitely identify with the ol' changing of facts after the fact Tigerrabbit, i would be careful about validating something that you know isn't true though. It's a really good tone of voice you were taking but I think giving in to their untrue beliefs even a little, to get some peace, is the beginning of gaslighting. later on your bf will even be more emboldened when you acknowledge that he could be right even when he isn't in the least.

[Chosen]

If there is some truth, it's ok to acknowledge, but say H would be saying to me I don't love him, the only thing I can validate is his feeling that he doesn't feel loved.  However, if I agree to his "truth" (I don't feel loved = my wife doesn't love me), then it's like falling into a trap because I agree with what he said and I admit I don't love him.  Then he can use it against me.

While I can ask him what I can do to help him feel more loved (have used it several times and it's pretty useless to ask, but at least it looks like I'm trying, you know?), I must not agree that I don't love him, or else it's not him putting words in my mouth, it's me admitting.

[waverider]

Thank you. I wish there were a way to save member names that gave answers/links so I can keep track of the helpful things they say and answers.

It took me a while to remember Grey Kitty" I was thinking Grey Cat... .  said something helpful, where was it again?

:-)

Thanks. Have to go now for today.

Cut and paste to a word document on your desk top. I have saved a few light bulb moments this way

[Tigerabbit]

Thank you. I wish there were a way to save member names that gave answers/links so I can keep track of the helpful things they say and answers.

It took me a while to remember Grey Kitty" I was thinking Grey Cat... .  said something helpful, where was it again?

:-)

Thanks. Have to go now for today.

Cut and paste to a word document on your desk top. I have saved a few light bulb moments this way

That's a great idea, Waverider. Thanks for that!

[waverider]

You can break it down into topic folders if you like such as Projection, Boundaries, etc  It all depends how academic you want to be. After all that is what you would be doing if you were studying it as an education course. Write your own manual if you like and update & edit it as you read something else that is relevant to your situation

This also helps sort the useful advice from the just venting aspects

I have heard of people having mantras as their desktop on slideshow function. Bit OTT for me, but some people like Mantras.

Beware of information overload though, get too obsessed about solving the problems can in itself become a problem. Dont let it take over your life more than it has to.

[Tigerabbit]

Beware of information overload though, get too obsessed about solving the problems can in itself become a problem. Dont let it take over your life more than it has to.

You're on a roll, Waverider! haha... .  thank you for pointing that out, too. That's something I could actually see myself doing in my desperation to improve my situation and hang on to him (I'm highly codependent... .  going to my first CoDA meeting tomorrow night in fact). I have been trying to remind myself as much as possible lately, as difficult as it is, that I really need to focus on myself and not get too wrapped up in trying to fix/understand him/us first. Individuals are the foundations of relationships, so the healthier I am the more solid my portion of the foundation is and the more I can contribute anyway! 

[waverider]

Beware of information overload though, get too obsessed about solving the problems can in itself become a problem. Dont let it take over your life more than it has to.

You're on a roll, Waverider! haha... .  thank you for pointing that out, too. That's something I could actually see myself doing in my desperation to improve my situation and hang on to him (I'm highly codependent... .  going to my first CoDA meeting tomorrow night in fact). I have been trying to remind myself as much as possible lately, as difficult as it is, that I really need to focus on myself and not get too wrapped up in trying to fix/understand him/us first. Individuals are the foundations of relationships, so the healthier I am the more solid my portion of the foundation is and the more I can contribute anyway! 

BPD is like a rainbow, there seems no end to it and you can drive yourself nuts trying to find the end of it. There is more to life than rainbows.

Does no harm to even ban yourself from these boards every now and then. Every couple of weeks we go fishing for the weekend somewhere where there is no net coverage, so grounding

[waverider]

On another note pwBPD are not stable structured people, hence they admire those qualities in other people that they lack themselves (even if they dont openly admit it). So the more you are affected by the disorder and the more you are absorbed by the disorder the more you become like them and the less you become what they would aspire to be, and the less desirable you are.

You need to stay the contrast to their disorder, or you will be nothing to aspire to.

[Lost_husband]

   This is almost a daily occurrence with me.  She my W will throw in things I need to know with all the other less important rambling.  I then will only remember part of something.  Later I am accused of not listening.  Recently her friend and I have compared stories.  I get told that her friend said "XYZ" and find out it was never said or its been said but totally different. 

    Take notes.  Write down what she says and later when she says she told you different you have a resorce to fall back on. 

   It is frustrating.  She will blame my mothers Diabetes for my mother being forgetful.  When indead my W did not relay the info needed. 

[cal644]

that happened to me - and I had a text to prove it.  My soon to be ex W told me that I told her I wanted her to order cookies for our daughters bday (her college does that) ... .  so the day before her bday my wife asked if she should order cookies for her and we would split it.  I told her I sent the form in for me 3 weeks ago - she called me a lier that I had asked her to send them for the both of us... .  Then I forwarded her the text... .  boy did that paint me blacker

[Auspicious]

It's OK to say "well, I remember things differently, so we'll just have to agree to disagree."

The other person may not like that. You may have to disengage and use boundary skills. But it's a fair thing to do and keeps you grounded in sanity.

[daylily]

On another note pwBPD are not stable structured people, hence they admire those qualities in other people that they lack themselves (even if they dont openly admit it). So the more you are affected by the disorder and the more you are absorbed by the disorder the more you become like them and the less you become what they would aspire to be, and the less desirable you are.

You need to stay the contrast to their disorder, or you will be nothing to aspire to.

This is so interesting, wave.  pwBPD try so hard to get us triggered so we act like we're the crazy ones.  But at the same time, they don't respect us when we do that.