I don't think he has a conscience

[sm15000]

Elemental,

I am just posting something said to me by Maybeso, in the hope that it may help

However, I can share that I'm careful these days about the language I use and the way I use my thinking. I'm extremely skilled at telling myself things or asking questions that while can't intellectually be "wrong"... .  Cognitively it sets me up for suffering because it's usually about someone else whom I can't control.  I wanted my ex to stop the pain he caused in me too. But the reality is my feelings belong to me so I'm in the best position to attend to my feelings than anyone else. We can ask someone to help us with our feelings, but

the job ultimately rests with us. I spent a lot of time expecting my ex to make my feeling state better, but logically... He was usually the last person skilled in soothing my feeling state... He could barely sooth himself and when he did it was often through maladaptive coping skills. I don't ask my self anymore is it wrong to want something... .  I try to move to "is it likely?" or "is this the best way?" or " does it work?"

Is it wrong? Leads to ... ,no, it's not wrong, so if it's not wrong then  he really should... .  but he hasn't... So now I feel worse, even victimized

Does it work? Leads to... No, he is the least likely person to help me with my feeling state... .  (radical acceptance) so I can move to myself and others who can help me

He is typically giving you the push/pull, the testing, the putting the ball in your court - he knows you don't want the r/s to end but he won't or maybe can't take any responsibility, so this is what you get - circular arguments   My ex tried to intimidate me with "my mates say, DUMP HER" etc.

As for the ex, seems like that has caused him intense shame, and almost narcissistic injury.  I'm sure his ex might have been goading him in, but he's a big boy - he could have said no.  But, they live in the moment of the thrill - I doubt for a nanosecond he contemplated the destruction that could cause - and then what happened, a baby - something which meant he had to own up  

It's most probably the same with women he connects to on the Internet - they give him something they crave for, attention and ego-stroking without the hassle of a r/s.  

However, this is causing you immense suffering so you have to take back some control. . .what's the alternative?  I think the immense shock of it all is making you intensify it personally - I think you should back off and let the realisation of who he is and how he behaves sink in - read around, and inform yourself on what you are dealing with and how this will impact on YOUR life.  It might help you cope and ultimately make a decision.    

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[connect]

Hi Elemental

I have PM'ed you.

Connect

[elemental]

I replied to you, Connect. 

He contacted me today and offered empathy and and a hug.

He was calm, which surprised me.

Maybe he took on some of the things I said yesterday. He said he knows I need support from him. He thinks I will leave if I don't get it. He doesn't agree with me on the type of support I am asking for.

I am feeling a lot of "fogginess" going on here. Pieces of things from everyone who has been responding here are resonating with me. I think it is time to work on detaching more. sm, thank you for reposting that. It's easier for me to think in terms of "likely outcome" because relying on "right" is not getting me very far.

Simply, he doesn't want to do "right" even though he knows he should be doing it. He keeps thinking if he holds out on me, I will just accept his disregard of my feelings and needs. I won't. Probably I will end up leaving for at least a while, and in that gap he will have time to revaluate without me there putting the pressure on him that he finds so angering that his resentment grows to the point he would rather die than do what is being asked.

I don't think he really wants to be without me. But time will tell :/

[Grey Kitty]

I keep struggling with the feeling if only I were better ( because he says this is the reason I faring so badly with him) then it would all work out. And I feel desperate because he makes clear to me when I ask that I am not entitled to what I am asking for, ie, that he step up for me and stop interacting with her or minimize contact or really regain my trust so that IF the contact really IS harmless then I will believe it.  

He cannot make that point to you. You are worth more than that, and his opinion doesn't change that.

He can make the point that he won't give it to you, and sadly, it sounds like he is.

I don't think he really wants to be without me. But time will tell :/

I don't think he does either. But the question of what he can do in order to be with you is a tough one for him. My heart goes out to you.

[waverider]

Keep in mind the loneliest place of all is in the middle of a dysfunctional relationship, as not only are you isolated from your partner, you are often also isolated from others who could be of benefit to you.

This takes away the hope of healing and swamps you with hopelessness.

[elemental]

Today was his birthday.

Internet woman came back from her vacation yesterday.

The day went ok until he decided to go play his game. For the first time in a while, really.   Pretty soon I see she has joined the group. Or was there from the beginning. He proactively explained to me that it wasn't his fault. She wasn't there when he started, but arrived soon after. It's not like anyone would be rude to her and tell her to go away when she is used to joining.

He explained to me that he is now staying away from her as much as he can, but he can't help such events.

I don't really know what to say. What is there for me to say? We are where we are as a result of his deliberate choices to place himself exactly where he is.

He has explained to me that he knows exactly how it makes me feel. ( or that I feel that way when I know it is going on).

He totally gets it.

But he says he has needs. He needs social interaction. He has friends there. He made in game committements to teach other people how to play. He just wanted to play his game a bit and chill out. It's not directed at me to hurt me.

ok. I am not there with him in that part of the game. I could have been but we all know internet woman had a fit and attacked me when I went over, and then he freaked out and blamed me for upsetting her prior to that, so I guess, as he says, I am the only person to blame for my pain.

I said well basically I am not feeling a lot of trust at this point and this game and the people in it are aggrivating that lack of trust. He says he knows how I feel, because I just can't be trusted either. Except I kind of STOPPED what he said was bothering him 3 months ago, and he is still doing what bothers me.

I know. I heard everyone about stepping back. I wish I had gone AWOL today instead of being around for his birthday for him. After all he abandoned me on MY birthday in November.

To the bitter end... .  *lashes whip 

[waverider]

So far the result for him is no consequences.

There is no reason for him to change.

You either have to change this, or accept it.

So far accepting is tearing you apart

Change is hard, so is being torn apart

One lasts longer than the other

You cant avoid a difficult path one way or another, but you can choose whether temporary or ongoing

[elemental]

I actually feel kind of guilty.

Last summer if he had said to me he is staying away from her and avoiding her where possible, I would have felt so rellieved.

Now I just feel tired and sad on it. I don't see where he can/will do anything until he decides he doesn't want to be there.

What consequences are there, except for me to not be around.

And my head is getting messed up. Years ago I would have never have believed I did not deserve to be supported. Now knowing about BPD, I just sort of lose momentum, because things are never what they seem and reasons for actions are different than what is usual.

I don't even know what to make of it anymore. I know I talk a lot, but there is a big part of me just sort of standing in the street, pretty speechless.

I am still baffled when I probably shouldn't be

[waverider]

Do you feel like you are waiting to be rescued as it all seems to hard for you to deal with?

[elemental]

No. I just feel baffled. Hurt. I don't even know what to think, except this was the time last year that I found out about the baby. And he had been giving  me a lot of grief for not trusting him before I even knew about the baby. He was telling me my problems with trust were my own, that if I had lost capacity that was too bad, because I was safe with him and he couldn't help me trust him more, it was all for me to overcome.

And he had that big secret, already born, but concealed from me.

I think I am getting strong echos of what happened last year.

Is this wierd?

[waverider]

I think you are feeling a little shell shocked and are having trouble believing the reality for what it is, and how could it be this way.

I think you know the reality, you probably have a fair idea of what is needed, but you dont want to believe it is as bad as it is, so there is an element of denial happening here. This leaves you going round in circles without enough confidence to take the path to address this.

If you dont change this the future will only repeat the past

[Grey Kitty]

I think I am getting strong echos of what happened last year.

Is this wierd?

Depends... .  has the situation fundamentally changed in any way from last year? If not, then echos aren't very surprising.

[elemental]

I am shocked.

I just kind of look at my self at this time last year, no idea of what I was about to fall into.

And how he handled it. It's taken a year for him to start to get the understanding that what he has done really has effected me.

I know what needs to be done. And probably you are right, I am just kind of not quite facing it. I mean he has been telling me for the last week that he totally understands what he has done, how it effected me. He knows that when he goes off towards this woman, it triggers off a lot of hurt for me. But he won't just stop.

For my own self, since coming here I have learned to detach enough that I am not going into those huge meltdowns. I feel so much better for it.


I can't seem to make myself understand a person who claims to know and understand and that his actions are causing so much more hurt but instead of stopping, he just tries to convince me that what I see happening is not happening. And I am actually not there, so I don't know how it all goes down, really.

All that self doubt.


Kitty, he has evolved in some different directions. I am pretty sure he hates his ex now. Wasn't so sure last year. Internet woman was all over his social page last year on his birthday with her postings about it. This year not a single person said anything there. I wished him happy birthday privately because I don't post on his social page.

Maybe I just let myself wear down again.

[elemental]

Well I just had an offer from him.

He says he has decided to take a leadership position in that game and if I will stop fighting windmills, I can be with him without any problems.

I have one thing to say to that.


“Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them.”

or some such thing.

 

[elemental]

I went to bed last night and left  my IM online.

He left me this message:

"Thing is. I know what do you feel. I know how it feels

But I offer you way which is absolutely different from what you believe is right

And you don't want to accept it. I understand why but I have many things I want to accomplish and I can't give them up"


Does anyone else here find this message disturbing? Or am I seeing at last the narccisistic explanation for his highly damaging ( I feel) actions.

In a nutshell he just told me that right action is getting in the way of him building an empire in an internet game. He turned 36 years old yesterday.

My response to him is neutral. I don't know what he is actually talking about in terms of his exact plans and his reasoning for it. So I said, tell me more about your perspective and plans.

Thus far, no response... .  

[waverider]

You are dealing with a full blown obsession here, you will not be able to negotiate around it, as it will always be subject to renegotiation.

You may as well be arguing with an alcoholic about sticking to X amount of drinks per day. The need will always over rule any negotiated agreement. Immediate gratification of the obsession/impulse is the driving factor.

Not sure if its narcissistic or not, it sounds more like outright obsessive behavior, whereby to give it up would be tantamount to asking him to stop breathing, just not an option.

Has there ever been any evidence of OCD behavior in the past or with any other subjects?

[benny2]

I know what you are going through. I went through the same thing when I was living there and he was running over to his ex every time she called, and more. The shakiness, the pounding heart, and the uncaring response I would get from him. I moved out. I could not deal with it anymore. That has helped, but his constant pushing/pulling is still hard. I am convinced at the time they are doing these things, they feel no remorse and they can't and won't stop. He does however mention  alot lately about the horrible things he has done to me. I simply tell him, then stop doing them, but its almost like he is trying to convince himself that he has done to much, it will never work. Its a never ending cycle of constant drama, and I know it could never be a normal relationship.

[elemental]

No, I have never seen obsessive behavior in him at all, except this game and I never realized it was so extreme. Though I will think on it.

This game is well known to really become a part of people's lives. He has played it for years, but he plays it way less than he used to. It's one of those games guys play at work, hiding it behind windows on their computer. And he has been traveling for work a lot and NOT playing this game for the last 3 years more than a few times a week.

This idea of his has just recently developed or it has simply been hiding under the surface for a long time and only just now stuck it's head up.


I had no idea... .  I am getting the feeling that he is trying to use it to compensate himself for something... to prove something to other people.

I play this game, too. It's important to me. I am a long term player, nearly 8 years of it. I would never screw over a person in that game or real life to accomplish any goal or obejective within that game.

The thing that concerns me is that it makes me wonder if this ... .  mentality... .  is the reason for his cruelty and disregard of the people around him... .  even while he is expressing his awareness of how he is effecting and how bad it feels to be treated that way.


Essentially, in practical terms, he is telling me he is not going to remove himself to another area in the game in order to not be around internet woman. He actually needs her support to accomplish much of anything. I think, though, that after a certain point, he will find that she won't support him. I already know that people in that game consider him volitile and unstable, often a trouble maker. I am doubtful he will be able to really gain more of a leadership position due to how he is viewed.

He may surprise me, though.

[elemental]

I used to date this guy who's best contribution to me was to always understand that I walk around in my life totally baffled by other people at times.

Benny, having him out of the house doesn't make it better. I came to the conclusion that I have transferred ( or rightly place, depends on who you talk to) my trauma over my sister's death and finding out about the baby onto internet woman because he treated me so badly over her immediately after these things happened.

So when I unexpectedly see her pop up, I get a PTSD reaction. I guess that helps.   

He has been apprised at this point that I am not in agreement with his perspective. He has no justification for the course of action he wants, except... well... it's what he wants and will enjoy having things that way. I guess I must have seemed like I was about to ask a load of questions, because he has run off again.

[waverider]

Do you think that because you play this game too it has become too much of a tie, and makes it harder to break away from the dependence on him as you will probably have to give up a dependence of your own.

If this game was not part of either of your lives would you still have these RS issues?

[elemental]

The issues would be gone.

I haven't raised any other complaints to him.

And I never told him no before. I did today.  No, I will not agree to what you are asking.

Before I said no, I made him a counter offer. I said I would be happy to support you, but many boundries have been crossed in the last year, and I was hurt a lot over internet woman. I said I would comply with his requests if he would reassure me that these things wouldn't happen again, and that he would minimize interaction with internet woman.

He listened, glared at me, refused to speak. I then said, under those conditions yes. Otherwise, no. I will not agree to do as you ask.

Basically he wants what he has been trying to force on me all along: he gets to make me never say a word as he persues whatever interaction he wants to have with another woman.

Well. No.

My condition made him so mad he slammed out of the house. He seriously thought he could manipulate me into an agreement where I say it's all ok.


I don't actually care that he plays the game. I care about his persuit of HER. I did point out to him that she was really clear about her position on things: she felt he had harmed her, she wanted very little to do with him, and stayed away mostly except in the act of playing the game.

He smugly replied "I am not going to comment on what Internet Woman said."

Like he has some plan to get her to like him again.  

I have worked really hard in the last 4-5 months to stabilize after being hit with the things he did. I am not quite there yet. He told me "You will stop making this all so serious."

Over the game. He says the game is his "hobby" and it has nothing to do with me. Seriously, he drags some strange woman out of it, brings her into our real lives, she makes friends with his EX and I get smacked around over her and I am the one making this all so serious?

Heck, yes, it became serious to me, look what he DID to me over her.

Am I missing something? Tell it like it is...

Also, I think it was you waverider who said I could pull the rug right out from under him. Wouldn't he actually have to care about me for me to be able to do that. The way he treats me, I feel like right now I could be killed and he wouldn't miss me. I feel the constant threat of HIM pulling the rug out from under ME. I don't even KNOW how to show my value. I really believe if he doesn't  get what he wants on this, he will just toss me away again.

It feels pretty bad.  :'(

[yeeter]

Hi elemental,

A quick observation:

Reading this it is still all about him.  It seems like you are still trying to control him.  All the focus is on he did x.  He didn't do y.

What about you?  Controlling him is not an option.  So what now?  ( and I'm asking thus in a respectful way... .  I know it hurts and is upsetting and you are hurting.  Hugs.  . )

[elemental]

I guess it was you Yeeter.

I don't know what to do. I was thinking of taking a nap. I am self employed so I was going to sit here and do some work later while watching something on TV.

In terms of him... .  well, nothing. I told him how I felt. He repeated back to me he knows exactly how it feels. But. He wants me to reverse my feelings and beliefs and ... do something that is not in alignment with my own values. In my world, if a loved one is suffering due to me and I can see where I can stop the hurtful acts and work with them through it, I will.

In his world, he expends massive amounts of energy trying to manipulate people into agreeing to help him hurt THEM.

I did that before, hoping for positive outcomes and healing. Like with the baby. And a day later he is threatening me and ending the relationship with me because he mistakenly thought I was rude to internet woman. In what reality is he living in? What kind of perspective allows such hurtful ungratefulness and brutality towards a loved one?

Not mine. So I am not going to agree and hurt my own self so he can play a video game with the person he hurt me over.

This time, the answer is NO. He can and probably will do what he likes. But I am not going to be there for him while he is doing it.

Is there anything else for me to do? Suggestions welcome.

[waverider]

Important question, if you have found a compromise that you would be truely happy with on certain conditions, then you need to be clear and firm about what YOU will do if those conditions are not met. They will be challenged, that must not be just another avenue for renegotaition or you end up back were you are except from an already compromised situation

Also, I think it was you waverider who said I could pull the rug right out from under him. Wouldn't he actually have to care about me for me to be able to do that. The way he treats me, I feel like right now I could be killed and he wouldn't miss me. I feel the constant threat of HIM pulling the rug out from under ME. I don't even KNOW how to show my value. I really believe if he doesn't  get what he wants on this, he will just toss me away again.

Because he is unaware that you could pull the rug he doesn't fear it. It will take the actual act to drive that home

Because you are more aware of reality you fear him pulling the rug.

Hence the threat has more hold over you than him. The reality will have more effect on him.

In my world, if a loved one is suffering due to me and I can see where I can stop the hurtful acts and work with them through it, I will.

In his world, he expends massive amounts of energy trying to manipulate people into agreeing to help him hurt THEM.

Your world and his world have different standards, that is a part of the disorder. It will always screw you up trying to apply one to the other

[elemental]

I am getting caught up in him stating he knows how I feel. He says he has felt the same way before. And he is asking me to do counter to what people do (himself too) and instead of refusing to accept his actions and continue asking him to repair trust or go play in another part of the game , he wants me to agree to support him and agree to not let my upset show.

I am getting worn out on the constant re-negotiations. We agree, he breaks agreement. Consequences... well I have in the past told him I don't agree and asked for agreement to go back in place and move on with it there. This has led to emotional and verbal abuse, threats to leave, disappear on me, silent treatment for weeks broken with the occasional mocking and threatening email to which ( in the past) I eventual responded to with getting seriously upset...

Now. He does things, I tell him I don't like it, then I go do something else. Because telling him I don't like it and to please stop, without trying to iron out agreements... .  is actually more productive than trying to enforce agreements.

He breaks the agreement, does something hurtful to me... .  I tell him I don't like it, it's hurtful, I excuse myself and I don't show up for a couple of days.

The repercussions have been I am not sitting there as his companion and he hates that. He hurts me. I tell him. I leave for a few days. He has tended to do it less as a result.  

[elemental]

I am sitting here feeling completely hopeless. There have been half a dozen times in the last couple of months, where I am doing my BEST and I mean that. It's my BEST, that when I don't agree with him, he just tells me "BYE" or "Farewell to you!" or "I don't want anything from you. Can you please leave me?"


I realize you are saying toughen up, but it just hurts and I feel hopeless. I think I will just leave.

[yeeter]

I realize you are saying toughen up, but it just hurts and I feel hopeless.

I'm not at all saying this (toughen up).  indeed, I have been in this no win situation myself.  Where it felt hopeless.

And it was.  In the sense that I had to accept that things were just never going to be the way I would ideally like them to be.  I was all caught up in her this and her that and it ate me up.

It took detachment.  Then taking a step back and assessing the whole thing from some emotional distance.  Figuring out what I could, and could not get from the relationship.  And finding other sources for the pieces that weren't there, combined with just learning to live without certain things.  In the end I decide to stay... .  but it wasn't a clear cut decision by any means.  Ironically, part of the detachment that enabled it also meant working through the possibility that I wouldn't stay, and that this was an ok outcome for me.

If you are staying 'no matter what he does', he is going to know this and do whatever he wants. Boundaries are for your own actions, and I think you have yours sorted out and have stated them clearly.  Trust yourself.  Live your values and boundaries.

More hugs.   

[elemental]

I stayed through some pretty intense things. I only did it because when he asked me to stay, I couldn't believe he would end up treating me so terribly. I mean I never dreamed he would act the way he has, then walk around acting like I should be ok with it and I am absolutely shocked that he threatens to leave and makes clear that if I try and get what I need it interferes with his fun in a video game, I am worthless to him?

Am I really? I matter that little? He has a whim and if I don't bow to it, I am tossed away garbage? REALLY?

It's a gift, isn't it? Someone hurts you cruelly and then says please stay. I thought I was a gift and that he realized how badly he had messed up. I look back to this time last year and I cannot believe how horribly he treated me.

Now he tells me to suck it up, if I want to be with him and have everything good, I have to accept this too because he "has things I want to accomplish and I can't give them up."

Seriously? He can't give up playing a video game with a woman who lives 1500 miles away and if I want him to the price for me is I get thrown away.

You know, the extremity of that and the threats on top of everything else... I alternate between a deep rage and utter hopelessness.

You really think he believes I am so worthless really?

What is the value to me in living with the feeling being ground into me day after day? How can I stay anymore?

[sm15000]

I mean I never dreamed he would act the way he has, then walk around acting like I should be ok with it and I am absolutely shocked that he threatens to leave and makes clear that if I try and get what I need it interferes with his fun in a video game, I am worthless to him?

You really think he believes I am so worthless really?  What is the value to me in living with the feeling being ground into me day after day? How can I stay anymore?

Elemental,

It is a truly horrible shock to realise the person you love (and that you thought loved you) continues to act in a way that clearly hurts you, and will not change that behaviour for you.  It does make you feel worthless.  I felt worthless - couldn't believe that the man I was with for 13 years and who had (for the majority of those years) made me feel so wonderful and full of worth was treating me so badly.

With distance, I can see that I was banging my head against a brick wall expecting HIM to change and make ME feel worthwhile and loved again.  After all, I was the 'special' one wasn't I  

Now I have come to believe that my worth has to come from within, and I should not rely on another to give that to me; and that I needed to come down off my own narcissistic high horse and realise my 'specialness' was not quite exactly reality, but that I fed off it. . .and was hooked to it.

I think you are still having problems taking in the REALITY of the situation. . .it takes time, and far longer than I ever imagined.  I'm at about 10 months of NC and I can still sometimes wallow in the myth that he will put it right    It's quite unbelievable what the drip, drip of accepting their (frankly) quite dodgy behaviour can do, and the realisation that your own boundaires are really dodgy too.

It is not he believes you are worthless - it is who HE IS, how HE COPES, HIS defence mechansims, HIS skewed thinking and OUR poor boundaries and a deep-rooted need maybe for love that we never (until now) realised was there; and he will have recreated trauma for you that you were never that aware of.

There is no value in feeling how you do. . .absolutely none.  Perhaps, it is now time to step away for a while even if you do not end the r/s for good.  

[elemental]

thank you  

I was pretty low last night. Today I feel better.

I told him no. I feel better for having said it. I am totally ok with saying it. Because I feel safter and more protected. I never have done that before. My whole life, someone asks and I am busy trying to figure out how to make it happen. Screaming co dependence and me so used to it as a way of life that I never even realized I was doing it until I came here.

Is it strange that I am usually having no opinion strong enough to do anything other than being "ok" with going along with what everyone else wants? I mean, I know what I want and what I like, but I feel so guilty and anxious trying to get it when other people start making demands so I try to alleviate my anxiety by just saying sure, we can go to eat there, I am fine with those curtains, that movie looks alright to watch. And I am really thinking, I kind of wanted chinese this time, omg I hate orange curtains, I don't like war movies bleh.

He reacted, first with anger, then silence, then confusion... .  he says he doesn't even know what to do now. He is baffled. He doesn't get it. All he says he gets is that I am upset over her but he isn't doing anything wrong, he wants things to be ok, and so he gets frustrated and starts trying to MAKE me be ok because he is tired of it. He is really frustrated.

Well I am too. It's not nice sitting here trying to sort through this stuff in my head and emotions. Some days I feel like I am trying hard and wave after wave of it slams into my mind and emotions. Triggers are triggers. Probably I seem to many people here like I am BPD myself. Maybe I am. At least I understand I can't live a life of reactions and refusing to find a way beyond it.

And I know it was about BPD and learning ways to deal with HIM and not to be here and it to be all about how an affair effects a person, or the reality of the child that comes out of the affair, or how ambigouity creeps in and confuses me because the affair was with his ex wife. And the kid just sort of sits there getting validated as a child of their partnership because they were married and already had one child. I can't even say to him don't go over there because kids need their dad. So I don't say a word and it hurts a lot.

He doesn't understand why after all this time, I am in such a state of grief. He doesn't appear to comprehend the long term emotional effects of his actions.

He said he felt like trashing his accounts of his game was the only real solution. I don't need him to trash his accounts, I need empathy and for him to stop trying to force me to "get over it" on his time and instead let me heal on *my* time.

empathy and BPD. I don't even know what I am doing some days, so anyone who keeps track of me a bit here, I really just hope that you aren't offended with how I ramble around. I probably look like I head off on so many tangents, I will never find a way through.