BPD grieving in reverse

[elessar]

I had come across some old threads that dealt with this topic and I wanted to restart it. Their grieving process in reverse really hit a chord in me.

Most of us grieve normally where we might be in the fetal position in the beginning but eventually start living our lives. We might never get over them or stop thinking about them, but we start to be functional.

And speaking for myself, it always mystified me and hurt a lot and also made me angry seeing her so fine and normal after she would break up with me... .  every single time. I never knew if she was acting or she genuinely thought she is fine. Since most BPD relationships end in ugly fights, in the beginning while we are suffering she would be like "never talk to me again". But as time went by over weeks or a few months, it always flipped around, didn't it? They would start getting emotional, send our "feelers". Every time she came back she would say "I have missed you so much" "every night I imagine you are sleeping next to me and cuddling me".

And been wondering for a while, is their grieving genuine or just splitting us back to white again. My ex's sorrows did always seem genuine and it lasted for maybe 1-2 months before something else triggered her rage and break up. There have been exceptions too. once or twice in the past she has told me why did I contact her... .  she was finally starting to move on etc.

Wondering if anyone else thought or experienced their grieving process in reverse.

[ScotisGone74]

I know I have seen this mentioned a couple times by others on here, but I wondered about it as well.  It seems literally impossible that they could move on with the next person/relationship without batting an eye, I think thats what makes it so difficult for us Nons is that they wonder what the hell just happened, ie looking in the window when they get home.  I believe it boils down to the black/white thinking, that BPD's are soo wrapped up in the fantasy/whiteness of the new person they just forget about us for the time being, that is until their current fantasy begins to unravel and the current person begins to turn black in their view.  They then have room in their fantasy for us to be white again.   Thats just my opinion on how they are able to move on effortlessly, with no sadness or remorse it appears.  I would love to hear what others have to say as well.

[imstronghere2]

I never saw any evidence of my exwBPD grieving our relationship breakup in the slightest.  Not one iota.  What I did see though, was her setting up a date with a new guy two days before she moved out for the day AFTER she moved out, right in front of me and my son.  What I did see was a picture on her phone asking the guy she had her affair with (not the same guy she started dating immediately after moving out) to MARRY her 6 DAYS AFTER she moved out.  What I did see was her sending naked pictures of herself to ANOTHER guy, not the same as EITHER of the previous two guys, all within the first week after moving out.

This all comes only TWO months after me finding out she was having an affair.  An affair that started only 6 weeks prior to that, where the guy asked her to divorce me in the third week of the affair.   

All from a women who I had been with for 22 years, married for 19 and had 2 kids with.  For all intents and purposes, seemed fairly happy.  We didn't fight or nothing like that.  Even the kids thought everything was ok.

She was that good at the facade.    Scary.

She has since married the affair guy.  Exactly one year and one week after our divorce.  Can you say train wreck of unimaginable proportions?   

You bet.

I got uncontested sole custody of my kids.  She never even bothered to read the agreements.  Couldn't care less.  Unbelievable but true.

Someone said on one of these threads that "they deserve to be happy".  I don't agree.  Not in the slightest.  Deserve means they've done something to earn it.  Happiness?  I don't think so.

[cal644]

IMSTRONGHERE2 - that story is almost the same as mine - time frame years married.  We were happy everyone thought we were the perfect couple and then - BAM out of nowhere she's having an Emotional affair with this other guy - I'm the worst thing that ever happened to her - she was willing to split up the family -

[trevjim]

www.borderlinepersonalitytoday.com/main/art30.htm

[mango_flower]

I know I have seen this mentioned a couple times by others on here, but I wondered about it as well.  It seems literally impossible that they could move on with the next person/relationship without batting an eye, I think thats what makes it so difficult for us Nons is that they wonder what the hell just happened, ie looking in the window when they get home.  I believe it boils down to the black/white thinking, that BPD's are soo wrapped up in the fantasy/whiteness of the new person they just forget about us for the time being, that is until their current fantasy begins to unravel and the current person begins to turn black in their view.  They then have room in their fantasy for us to be white again.   Thats just my opinion on how they are able to move on effortlessly, with no sadness or remorse it appears.  I would love to hear what others have to say as well.

This makes so much sense to me... .  the mean, hurt part of me hopes it's true that they start grieving backwards... .  I have been in so much pain whilst she has her new girl there to comfort her... .  

But yes, I know I need to not have thoughts of recrimination as it's not healthy

[bb12]

When we were together, my exBPD spoke glowingly of his previous exes... .  but he hinted also that things had ended terribly and that this person was not talking to him.

He seemed to covet those failed relationships. I thinking he was at the 'painting white' stage after probably having painted them black as he left them in a world of pain.

He didn't seem to want to reconnect, but rather pine for confirmation that the exes still loved him.

My own theory is that pwBPD are addicted to the new. Idealisation is easy and they are great at it... .  the mirroring, the great sex, the getting to know you. Because they know on some level that things go wrong very quickly, my feel is that they quickly find someone to kick-start an idealisation phase in preference to working on a r/ship when things get real. Fantasy & projection over compromise and hard work.

But I also feel that this diversionary tactic also relegates us to a distant memory very quickly, and that they don't dwell on our break-up or us in general. By the time the fantasy phase with the new one starts to crack, they are again onto the next and not necessarily looking back and painting us a shade whiter than we used to be.

Mine never contact me again and I am not convinced he ever really grieved at all.

BB12

[afterdeath]

Mine never contact me again and I am not convinced he ever really grieved at all.

BB12

we share the same fate.

[ScotisGone74]

I know that many of us, myself included, would deep down like our ex BPD SO to contact us or somehow let us know they are sorry for the pain they have caused or apologize for at least something they did.  I think that many of us will be much closer to finding true peace and happiness when we can get to a point where we no longer need any affirmation from the ex that they were unhealthy, that they caused significant un needed pain, that they are going to have major trouble in their lives continuing on their current path.  The affirmation has to come from within ourselves, knowing that without learning from our mistakes there can be no true progress. 

[elessar]

I know that many of us, myself included, would deep down like our ex BPD SO to contact us or somehow let us know they are sorry for the pain they have caused or apologize for at least something they did.  I think that many of us will be much closer to finding true peace and happiness when we can get to a point where we no longer need any affirmation from the ex that they were unhealthy, that they caused significant un needed pain, that they are going to have major trouble in their lives continuing on their current path.  The affirmation has to come from within ourselves, knowing that without learning from our mistakes there can be no true progress. 

yup, well said. oh well... .  in the end life is a learning lesson - the biggest of which is that life isn't fair.

[tailspin]

 

Sometimes the grieving never happens.  Let's say you have a book you really enjoyed reading but you didn't like the ending.  You might put it down on your kitchen table and then eventually give it away.  Do you grieve because the book is gone?  No... .  because it's an object. You may remember some parts of it fondly but all you really remember is how much the ending sucked. 

Many of us were objects because this is as good as a disordered mind gets.  A lack of object constancy doesn't allow for sustained emotional attachment; it's a survival technique they've perfected and use often.  It's out of sight/out of mind because our ex's didn't know when the "object" will be taken from them.  Often they control the demolition of our relationship to relieve the anxiety of not knowing when it will happen.

But they are human... .  and humans grieve.  Like any emotion though... .  it won't last for long.  Concerning reverse grieving?  I'm not sure I believe this exists.  I think it's more likely my ex thinks about me as often as I think about that book I gave away.

tailspin

[SarahinMA]

I'm pretty sure mine never grieved... .  he always had his roommates around to distract him, while I lived alone and had to face my pain and sadness.  He avoided me for months and months- now, I see him out and he just pretends like he doesn't know me (or that I'm just some very distant acquaintance).  I guess it goes back to that false belief that they experience the relationship in the same way we do.  My ex was able to compartmentalize every great memory into a little box and throw it away.  Sometimes I'm envious of that.   

[trevjim]

The guy my ex is with now, the one she got with a year after me she dated around 5 Years ago for 6 months, cheated on him then. Slept with him a couple of times when we split for a week or so during our relationship, after that we then got engaged and moved in togeather. Then of course we have now split and she is with him again.

My point?

Well things obviously where not good enough the first time for her as she cheated on him and eventually left him. Also when we had our bust up and she got with him, she could of stayed with him but choose to get back with me. This time however she choose him over me.(as I tried to get back with her when I found out about him, mainly because of jelousey)

So what's changed? Well when I ended it,  I know longer fulfilled her needs, she then split me black. I was just an object to her. As is the guy she is with now, he didn't fulfill her needs the first time round, and he won't again, but he is just an object to her aswell. I think they get attatched in the way we do to a car we like, but we get over that car pretty quick right? Especially when we have a new one ready to replace the 'broken' one.

[ScotisGone74]

I geuss one of the most sad things that I take away from this is how I was involved with this ex BPD SO for so long and didn't realize that this object constancy is how their mind really worked, but then again I wasn't aware of BPD during the beginning of the relationship either.  When I started going back to church during the fallout with the ex BPD SO the preacher happened to mention something that caught my attention, he said

" IF you do whatever you feel like You'll find Hell every time".  I geuss the thing is  to  me that seems like exactly what my ex was doing, whatever She Felt like.  Crushing someone's heart, dreams, plans, love and hopes may be a big win for some Ex's, I watched in disbelief as mine almost seemed giddy to carry this out upon me,  but its only a short term win.  Eventually we will pick ourselves up out of the mud, whipe our blood nose, stitch up our stab wounds and move on with an adult life.  They, unfortunately will be caught up in the same rotation of lies, affairs, manipulation, and unfortunately an unhappy and unfullfilled life. 

[elessar]

Eventually we will pick ourselves up out of the mud, whipe our blood nose, stitch up our stab wounds and move on with an adult life.  They, unfortunately will be caught up in the same rotation of lies, affairs, manipulation, and unfortunately an unhappy and unfullfilled life. 

As much as I don't want the last part for her, I feel that will happen to her. Maybe 1% of me does want her to experience that just so that she will see what her denials and lies have wrought upon her. Feel evil saying it, but the thought that they can wreck us who saved them... .  some of us have literally saved them from suicide and healed them to a better life... .  and live the perfect life just kills me.

On our last fight I said that all your life is based upon lies. She said she has never lied to me. That is technically true. She has always spoken her mind. But what she says today can be 180 degrees different tomorrow and she will not acknowledge the contradiction. But I read somewhere too, her past is so bad that she HAS to lie to be with someone else, especially the conservative eastern culture she is coming from. She can't even tell all her stuff to own family members, how the hell will she ever tell her secrets to any future partner from that culture. And what kind of a life it will be that is based on lies and secrets. Feel sorry for her. Still pray for her that she will see the light before it is too late.

[must move on]

Interesting topic, my ex BPD has after well I lost count... .  erm ... about 7 Month's is now trying to have "coffee" I didn't bite so started emailing with the I am so sorry... .  I was awful to be with live with, I love you so much, I hate myself... .  etc... .  that took 7 Month's.

So does this mean there is some truth is this theory?

Maybe, seems that way currently. I am pretty much detached now, thankfully to boards, and T

[ScotisGone74]

When I think back to my relationship with the ex pwBPD I watched and listened as over the course of a couple years her ex husband went from being an outright thief and cheater to being a nice guy that she could ask for favors.  To be perfectly honest I really don't think he spoke to her after they got divorced, I was never around when he supposedly 'called', it was her fantasy I believe to triangulate me.  I geuss it makes me wonder, does someone in their current life have to go black in order for the Ex's to turn back to white?  or do they just use their ex's to triangulate others?  Ha, or do they just feel like we have served as great punching bags in the past, why not get us back to see how much more we can take?  Maybe its just a combination of all three of these.  Interesting nontheless 

[GustheDog]

Interesting topic, my ex BPD has after well I lost count... .  erm ... about 7 Month's is now trying to have "coffee" I didn't bite so started emailing with the I am so sorry... .  I was awful to be with live with, I love you so much, I hate myself... .  etc... .  that took 7 Month's.

So does this mean there is some truth is this theory?

Maybe, seems that way currently. I am pretty much detached now, thankfully to boards, and T

My theory is that the "grieving in reverse" concept is good at explaining situations like this in a way that we can easily relate to our own ways of viewing things, but I don't actually believe it's an accurate characterization of what they're experiencing.

I don't think they grieve - in the true sense of the word - at all; not immediately after the breakup nor down the road.

What you've described, in my opinion, is at best momentary regret.  But not regret about what your exBPD has done to you, rather regret about the fact that they are lonely and without attachment *at that particular moment*.

It looks like more manipulation to me, especially if it was preceded by casual requests for coffee.  Once it became apparent that such a track wasn't effective, it was time to engage the crocodile tears and empathy soliciting behaviors.  Not that they aren't genuinely distraught during these times - just not for the reasons it looks like, or the reasons a person *ought* to be distraught under the circumstances.

[GustheDog]

Crushing someone's heart, dreams, plans, love and hopes may be a big win for some Ex's, I watched in disbelief as mine almost seemed giddy to carry this out upon me.

Yeah - this right here is what makes empathy so incredibly hard for me.  Even considering the monstrously negative impact of her actions towards me, absent what you've described here I would still have nothing but empathy for her.  But this - it's just more than I am personally capable of taking while still maintaining wholly positive thoughts for a person.  Maybe, as she put it, I'm just "a sad little man."  Either way, just being honest.

It's also the aspect for me that really, truly drives home the extent of her sickness.  Few things disturb or scare me as much as sadism.  And I know, I know, I know that their sadism doesn't hold a candle to an ASPD's, or even an NPD's, potential sadism - but it's one thing I can look at when I find myself ruminating and think just how marriage and children would have played out with this person.  Excruciatingly, that's how.

[ScotisGone74]

I geuss this is one of the few things that just takes the winds out of our sails when it comes to dealing with our ex BPDs, when you know they are taking pleasure in the pain/confusion they are causing you for whatever reason they have came up with.  I think this leads us to anger, and justifiably so, but in the end we can't go on to live a fruitful, enjoyable life with love for others if we hold on to the anger we have at them for what they have done to us.  They stole all the love, help, thoughfulness, and compassion we had to offer and there is nothing we can do about it, except go on to live the happiest life we possibly can. 

[bb12]

Once it became apparent that such a track wasn't effective, it was time to engage the crocodile tears and empathy soliciting behaviors.  Not that they aren't genuinely distraught during these times - just not for the reasons it looks like, or the reasons a person *ought* to be distraught under the circumstances.

Spot on! Ultimately, any r/ship with a pwBPD (w/NPD traits) is all about them. It is no different after the break-up. Anything they do or feel will be about them and their needs, for they don't love like we do. They seek to fill voids and get needs met, so don't come at things from a considered, reciprocal, give & take perspective. And because they are addressing a need, they act from a pre-occupied, urgent and selfish state.

When these things are over and they have moved us to a less dependent place and need us less, then grief doesn't come into it. They are getting that need filled elsewhere and all focus is on that. Completely. I keep going back to the reading and the likelihood that their emotional development is stunted and I picture a toddler dropping one toy to pick up a new one. They don't grieve for the old toy. And when a child is doing something, it is in a very focused single-tasked way. It can be hard to pry their attention away and onto something else because they are so in the moment. So the torment and wrestling and grieving... .  like all of the previous emotional processing and work... .  is ours alone.

bb12

[GustheDog]

Two philosophical concepts are relevant to the BPD universe, I think.  (Well, likely others as well, but maybe someone can start another thread on that . . . .)

(1) Intrinsic Value vs. Instrumental Value

Think about things that have value to you.  Not necessarily objects, although that would make this point even more salient, since, to the BPD, we are nothing more than an object.  Anyway, you will be able to sort the things you value into two categories: those with intrinsic or inherent value, and those with instrumental value.

Money is a textbook example of something with great instrumental, but no intrinsic, value.  It is a means to an end - different strokes for different folks as to what those ends might be, but money, in itself, does nothing.  It is *used* to obtain something else.  While it may be extremely important - even necessary - in service of these ends, it has no value in itself.

A classic piece of art, on the other hand, could be said to have intrinsic value.  It is valued not because of what can be done with it, but for merely existing.  Yeah, you could argue that it's instrumental in evoking in you a certain sensation - and that's the true nature of its value - but, look, I'm tired and I couldn't think of a better example.  And, also, the piece of art is *unique* and not fungible in nature.  A different piece of art might be valued as well, and it too might evoke sensations in you; but, like snowflakes, no single piece is exactly the same as another.

The same cannot be said for dolla billz.

(2) Diminishing Marginal Returns

If you were starving - actually dying of hunger - one ice cream cone would have tremendous value to you.  As would the second, third, fourth, fifth, and so on.  But, eventually, you get full, or sick of ice cream cones, and each successive cone becomes less valuable to you.

Money is the same way.  All else constant, would you rather make $10k/yr or $100k?  The answer seems obvious.  Now, would you rather make $50 million/yr or $51 million?  Sure, I suppose I'd rather make $51 million, but, really, such an incremental increase does not up my quality of life in any non-negligible way, certainly not in the way a jump from $10k to $100k would.  And notice that this is true even though the increase in the second example, in absolute terms, is over ten times the increase in the first.

To the BPD, our value is purely instrumental.  And, once they've had a few of our ice cream cones to stave off their hunger pains, they no longer value the ice cream as much.  To the point where any additional ice cream makes them sick.

When they are "grieving," it just means they're hungry again.

[Mike_confused]

All:

I was unsure that my son to be ex-uBPD wife would grieve in reverse, even though she is textbook BPD and hits every other symptom on the head.   For two and a half months she has avoided me,while repeatedly telling me things are over.  She had repeatedly said she wanted to go to mediation, to which I agreed, since we have no kids or common property.

I hear nothing for over a month from her, so I ask when she is free to meet with the mediator.  She flips.   Severe, uncontrollable crying.    She now tells me she wants to meet to discuss HER FEELINGS.   I said "OK, as long as I can discuss my feelings as well".   She said this is about her.  She told me that I should reconsider leaving her.   

Here I must say that she forced me out.   Told me for months that she wanted a divorce, that her kids hated me, that I was taking money from her kids (I am the only one that has a income, other than the minute amount of child support she gets).  After that berating for many many months, I left during an argument.   She told me that she never thought I would leave.   To me, this is the clearest sign of insanity:  for her to believe that I would continue indefinitely to take the verbal abuse and put-downs, and then even consider going back to that is just plain not rational.

I understand BPD now to some degree.  Nevertheless, I won't allow her to suck me back in.  On top of the abuse she has always made every effort to control my income.

She went too far.