And the rollercoaster continues

[Tigerabbit]

Well, things seemed to be going a little better for awhile there, and now they're back on a downswing. Feeling really unsure about how I'm handling things, I think I need to review the lessons.

My pwBPD and I were trying to have no contact for awhile, and were struggling with it though we had definitely cut down how much we were seeing each other/communicating a lot. He ended up getting REALLY sick while going through withdrawals, and was going through all this drama with some girl in one of his groups, and he ended up staying with me a couple nights in a row and I helped him through being sick, which he really appreciated, and expressed how nice it was to feel cared about. Things were going really well it seemed, we were still not having a ton of contact, but it was very pleasant when we did overall and I felt I was doing a good job validating, not JADE'ing, etc.

Here is where plummet begins. This Saturday morning he called me a bunch of times while I was asleep to try to get me to go to a thing I told him I might go to with him, and I called him when I woke up and said I had a bunch of stuff to do and wasn't going to go. He said he needed a ride though and didn't want to have to try to find parking in the city. I told him he is fully capable and would be able to get there and find parking just fine. He got really nasty, said some very cruel things to me. I didn't respond to any of them, and he did end up going and apologized to me later. I thanked him for the apology.

I just found out I was accepted into one of the universities I applied to, and told him about the news, and though he said he was happy for me I think he is afraid of me moving away (it's about 3 hours away from home). While very excited, it's also a lot of new added stress on top of everything else I'm stressed about.

Last night, I failed to really recognize how stressed out I was and agreed to go over to his house and hang out. He is still having withdrawal symptoms and was really hungry, bad mix for him, and he wanted me to come help him feel better. So things started off rocky because we had a miscommunication and he thought I was bringing him food from my house when I thought he had said not to. So he then asked me what I wanted to eat, and I named a few things that sounded good, none of which he wanted, and he didn't really have much else to eat. He kept saying, "what do you want to eat?" and I told him I didn't know what he wanted me to say, I told him what sounded good to me, and he got increasingly angry, saying I came over to help him feel better and was doing the exact opposite and to figure out what to eat and fix the problem. I did manage to defuse that part of the situation, and figured out something to eat that sounded good to both of us. Things seemed to be going ok, we were watching a movie and eating, when suddenly he asked me if I watched this movie with the last guy I dated when we broke up last. I told him no, but then he asked me to list all the movies I'd seen with him so he didn't have to go through this again. I started trying to think of them, but for multiple reasons couldn't remember them very quickly (this topic is a trigger for both of us, and I got immediately hyper-stressed and was having a hard time thinking). So then, he got angry at me because he was raising his voice which was upsetting his dog, and he laughed to try to relax his dog and asked me to laugh too (I didn't know why he as asking me to at this point) so, in the midst of the stress I did a few little fake laughs, which weren't good enough for him so he got angrier still and said "I shouldn't have to explain everything to you. When I say, you do." I just said "okay" (probably a big mistake) to keep him from getting more worked up. He paused for a couple seconds, and then shoved our plates at me and said "take these over to the sink." I said, "I will, I'm trying to think" (about the movies still), and put them on the table and he shoved them at me again and told me to take them over. This happened once again and a small piece of chicken he was gong to save fell off.

And this is where I really blew it. Being as stressed as I already was coming over, then this on top of it, I just glared at him for a few seconds, grabbed the plates and took them over and just stood at the sink. He came up and in his fake, sickly, threateningly sweet voice said "did you see what just happened? I asked you to do something three times and you argued?" I just sort of nodded, and then he asked me to eat the chicken that had fallen on the floor, and I said no (of course!), and then he tried to shove it in my mouth and said "I want you to eat it!" I got him off of me and very quickly grabbed my purse and left. He then sent me a bunch of texts saying he was drunk, wasn't going to his group anymore and was going to see dumb girl from his group, that he wished me happiness and was there if I needed anything. I ignored it all until this morning, and I just told him I was sorry I came over when I was already stressed out, that I hoped she was good for him and to please go to his group. He proceeded to verbally berate me some more, tell me not to talk to his parents, and ask for his headphones back, all of which I ignored except for saying "ok" to the headphones.

And then he calls me about some problem, and got frustrated when I didn't read his mind that he wanted me to help him with it and again says "I shouldn't have to explain everything to you." And then tells me he's busy, when he told me earlier he had plans to hang out with girl-from-group, though he didn't really want to. There is so much going on here. I mostly just wanted to vent, but could also really use to tips on how to handle this from here. I know it's sort of a long post, so thanks for reading. *Big sigh*

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Rockylove]

   WOW!  Sounds like a lot to deal with!  It also sounds like he's dysregulated and feeling the need to control something~~anything~~and your head is on the chopping block at the moment.  I know you were just venting and not asking for advice, but I would caution you to back away right now as the things you said he was doing are abusive.   Take care of yourself and attend to your needs.

[LetItBe]

I would caution you to back away right now as the things you said he was doing are abusive.   Take care of yourself and attend to your needs.

I second this.  Please take care of yourself. 

[briefcase]

His behavior sounds very controlling and even sadistic.  

Have you ever seen people play chess really fast?  Pieces flying aound the board, players making quick strategic decisions with little time to reflect?  

It can kind of feel like that when things start to dysregulate. We need to resist the temptation we feel to try to soothe them when things are beyond our control.  I highlighted his "moves" and your "countermoves" to illustrate the futility of trying to manage his emotions:

He kept saying, "what do you want to eat?" and I told him I didn't know what he wanted me to say, I told him what sounded good to me, and he got increasingly angry, saying I came over to help him feel better and was doing the exact opposite and to figure out what to eat and fix the problem. I did manage to defuse that part of the situation, and figured out something to eat that sounded good to both of us.

I told him no, but then he asked me to list all the movies I'd seen with him so he didn't have to go through this again. I started trying to think of them, but for multiple reasons couldn't remember them very quickly (this topic is a trigger for both of us, and I got immediately hyper-stressed and was having a hard time thinking). So then, he got angry at me because he was raising his voice which was upsetting his dog, and he laughed to try to relax his dog and asked me to laugh too (I didn't know why he as asking me to at this point) so, in the midst of the stress I did a few little fake laughs, which weren't good enough for him so he got angrier still and said "I shouldn't have to explain everything to you. When I say, you do." I just said "okay" (probably a big mistake) to keep him from getting more worked up.

He paused for a couple seconds, and then shoved our plates at me and said "take these over to the sink." I said, "I will, I'm trying to think" (about the movies still), and put them on the table and he shoved them at me again and told me to take them over. This happened once again and a small piece of chicken he was gong to save fell off.

And this is where I really blew it. Being as stressed as I already was coming over, then this on top of it, I just glared at him for a few seconds, grabbed the plates and took them over and just stood at the sink. He came up and in his fake, sickly, threateningly sweet voice said "did you see what just happened? I asked you to do something three times and you argued?" I just sort of nodded, and then he asked me to eat the chicken that had fallen on the floor, and I said no (of course!), and then he tried to shove it in my mouth and said "I want you to eat it!"

Do you see how it escalated quickly, regardless of what you did or said?  The trick is to disengage and leave earlier.  By the time you said you "blew it" it was already past time for you to leave.  :)on't stick around for this.  When you see he's agitated, just leave.  Let him soothe himself.  

I am very concerned for your safety - both emotional and physical - in this relationship.  :)o you have a therapist that you can work with to develop some strategies?  

[Tigerabbit]

Thanks guys.

Chosen - Yes, my head is definitely on the chopping block. I feel like I'm getting whiplash from going back and forth so much from painted black to being ok. I was asking for advice as well, so it's much appreciated! I wish so much he'd get into DBT or something (he mentioned wanting to do it some months back). I just don't know if I should bring it up to him at this time as he's already feeling a little overwhelmed with his groups and individual counseling.

Briefcase - Thanks for breaking it down for me like that. I feel like such a pushover with him. I definitely feel like he is in control, or at least in the illusion that he is. What makes it more difficult right now is that since he has stopped abusing pain pills and is smoking far less weed than before, his brilliant (and OCD) mind is turning back on all the way, and it's very distressing for him. He told me the other night, "this is why I do drugs". He just can't turn his own brain off, and it's torture for the poor man.

I do see how quickly it escalated, and I recognize that I should have left sooner. I guess I was just afraid to because I know he would have gotten upset at that, also, and I thought there was a possibility I could avoid things escalating (thinking I could control the situation... .  big mistake!).

I do have a therapist, though she is an intern and I'm not sure how skilled/experienced she is with this sort of thing. I have been avoiding talking to her about the relationship because I've been trying to focus on my own personal problems, but perhaps I should bring it up again with her?

[briefcase]

I guess I was just afraid to because I know he would have gotten upset at that, also, and I thought there was a possibility I could avoid things escalating (thinking I could control the situation... .  big mistake!).

That's the "chess match" atmosphere I was trying to express.  And, yes, its a big mistake to play. And, yes, we usually play this game because we are afraid of their reaction if we don't play.  So, we try to defuse the situation in ways that go well beyond some emotional validation.  We struggle to answer unfair "no-win" questions.  We say yes, when we want to say no.  We do things we don't want, or need, to do. Why?  Because of FEAR.

In this case, I actually think your fear is justified.  Most of the time, we are afraid of our partner's intense emotional reaction, which feels overwhelming but can be confronted.  In this case, there is a threat to your physical safety.  I'm glad you are bringing this up with your counsellor.  That's very wise. 

[arabella]

... .  I wish so much he'd get into DBT or something (he mentioned wanting to do it some months back). I just don't know if I should bring it up to him at this time as he's already feeling a little overwhelmed with his groups and individual counseling.

... .  his brilliant (and OCD) mind is turning back on all the way, and it's very distressing for him. He told me the other night, "this is why I do drugs". He just can't turn his own brain off, and it's torture for the poor man.

... .  I have been avoiding talking to her about the relationship because I've been trying to focus on my own personal problems, but perhaps I should bring it up again with her?

As much as DBT might be ideal in the long run, I'm not sure that he's in a place to handle that right now. Too much all at once is liable to cause him to panic and relapse, and/or quit all of his therapies altogether, rather than improve. I actually spoke to a therapist who has some background treating pwBPD and this was what she told me - I thought it made sense. So perhaps just wait a little until he stabilizes a bit?

Okay, I know that pwBPD suffer a lot. So do people with OCD. That's a tough combo for sure. HOWEVER, it is NOT justification to abuse another person. What he was doing is 100% physical and emotional abuse. There is no way around that fact and you need to stop making excuses for him (even just in your own mind). These things are not okay. There is medication that can be used to treat BPD symptoms as well as OCD. If he needs medical intervention, then that's something to consider. But his suffering does not excuse his behaviour in any way, shape, or form.

I hope you do speak to your T about the r/s. She won't be able to get a complete picture of your own 'stuff' without knowing what you're dealing with. Relationships are a huge part of our social selves so I think that solving your own problems could only benefit from examining the r/s too!

I'm sorry that you're going through all of this - it's so hard and you sound like you're really making every effort to improve the situation! Take care of yourself (and make sure you accept that university spot you earned - congratulations to you!) 

[Blazing Star]

Tigerrabbit  . Sounds tough!

I relate, my bf also has OCD, and has used drugs and alcohol in the past to stop the obsessional thinking. Like yours the OCD can focus on exs and my behaviour/events/places etc when I was with ex bfs. Like you I would flap and flounder desperately trying to think how to answer his question in the best way possible, which is incredibly stressful I know.

Some things that really helped our situation - was him finally finding a good T, who said to him "Blazing Star doesn't have to answer any of your questions", which made me feel better about not answering, I started to realise how much power I had given away to him, and that I didn't need to. Also my therapist said "Keep the focus on him rather than you".

He hasn't asked in ages. I think if he were to now I would validate and while keeping my boundary of not answering these types of questions "Oh baby, it sounds like your head is going again, that must be hard to be thinking things about your gf that you don't want to think about, I can't engage in these types of conversations any more, so i am going to go out, I will call you in three hours/tomorrow, and I hope you can find some way to soothe yourself. I love you."

(I imagine if you were to do this with yours he would be very angry, but as long as you left so you weren't engaging in that dysfunctional dance, and you were consistent he would get over it - hard to believe I know, but he would start to realise that his ways of being were not working anymore or having the same effect on you)

Also him getting DBT has really really helped him manage the OCD thinking, he realises this too. Especially as a recovered addict.

It also helped me to read about Codependancy, and reading "Women Who Run with the Wolves" was a major empowering moment for me.

It's great you are seeing a T - yes definitely talk about your r/s as it will be intertwined with your own issues anyway.

Stay strong, keep posting here!

Love Blazing Star

[rosannadanna]

Hey Tigerabbit  ,

I can relate to your story up until the verbal abuse and (almost) physical abuse.  My SO is a leaver, so he would just walk out, that's probably why my tolerance was high for episodes like this.  The theme was usually that we were both off our game emotionally or physically to begin with, and we would start arguing.  And the theme of our arguments are him being paranoid and blaming and me JADING.  We haven't had one of those arguments since I re-engaged with him after 6 months NC in September, thank God and the tools from the board!

Ok, so that's me.  I am unclear whether or not you wanted to even go over there in the first place?  I am finding that the best thing to do is be true to my own needs.  If you do it lovingly and with validation for your partner, sometimes you can head off them being pissed that you are not doing what they want you do.  But sometimes that's unavoidable, especially if your SO is compromised in some way.  Your SO is compromised big time right now.  He is learning to live with out substances as a coping skill and he is probably bugging out about you going to school 3 hours away.

It's good that he is doing his own recovery program and it's good that you are in therapy.  Even if she is an intern, tell her everything, even the scary stuff that makes you feel vulnerable.  Recounting to her what you just shared with the board will expose his abusive behavior and that will hopefully motivate you to not be in that situation again.  It's actually a good thing that she is a student b/c that means she is reviewing cases with a seasoned clinician, so you are indirectly getting premium services!

Take care and P.S. Blazing Star also has some phenomenal strategies.  Thank you Blazing Star!

[MammaMia]

Tigerabbit

Are you dating my son?  The senario you describe is exactly what he says and does.  I have learned when he gets like that to just stay away. 

I suspect the basis of his actions was your school acceptance and his fear that you would leave him.  So... .  he makes YOU the bad guy.  Rather than having an honest conversation about what is really bothering them, he is seeking to hurt and humiliate.  Nothing is right.  Nothing you say or do is good enough.  You are an idiot.  Rationalization is impossible.  All he wants to do is argue.  AND it is all your fault!  HE IS IN CONTROL... .  according to him.

What I do if this happens is just get up and leave.  I tell him I will talk to him later and go.  Nothing can be accomplished by staying.

[shatra]

Hi

Tigerrabbit wrote

I called him when I woke up and said I had a bunch of stuff to do and wasn't going to go.

--It seems that this triggered his fear of abandonment. Then he felt abandoned again by your news re: acceptance to the university. Congratulations on the acceptance!

---Blazing star wrote about how DBT helped the pwBPD with their OCd thoughts---can you share how it was helpful?

Thanks

Shatra

[Tigerabbit]

Arabella -

As much as DBT might be ideal in the long run, I'm not sure that he's in a place to handle that right now. Too much all at once is liable to cause him to panic and relapse, and/or quit all of his therapies altogether, rather than improve.

Yes, I completely agree with that. First things first, and right now his most imperative task is to get clean. I just really look forward to him conquering that hurdle and moving on to the next one.

What he was doing is 100% physical and emotional abuse. There is no way around that fact and you need to stop making excuses for him (even just in your own mind). These things are not okay.

I agree. I've always struggled with making excuses for everyone, myself included. It's a difficult habit for me to break, sadly. I know he is abusive. I also know that he hates that he is abusive, and it's even a self-perpetuating form of self-harm because he thinks he deserves to feel bad, and nothing makes him feel worse. It's bad for both of us. And I thank you deeply for the support and congratulations! 

Blazing Star -

Thank you, it's so nice to know you can relate so closely, and be an example of hope for the situation. I go to Codependents Anonymous groups, and it's very helpful, though I do want to start actually working the steps. I will have to check out that book you mentioned, it sounds very intriguing!

Rosannadanna -

Hey Tigerabbit  ,

We haven't had one of those arguments since I re-engaged with him after 6 months NC in September, thank God and the tools from the board!

Ok, so that's me.  I am unclear whether or not you wanted to even go over there in the first place?  I am finding that the best thing to do is be true to my own needs. 

That's great, it gives me hope and more motivation to re-attempt NC, or very minimal contact at least. Thanks for sharing that. I did want to go over there, though I was stressed and exhausted beyond words and should have thought better of it.

It's actually a good thing that she is a student b/c that means she is reviewing cases with a seasoned clinician, so you are indirectly getting premium services!

Thanks for pointing that out, too! I knew she is under supervision but that is sort of easy to forget sometimes... .   

MammaMia -

Oh goodness, I don't know!  If so we know each other very well! All of what you described sounds like him (though I'm sure it sounds like a lot of pwBPD). Sometimes it's impossible to get up and leave, though in this case it wasn't and I should have. That is definitely something I need to work on, knowing when to walk away.

shatra -

--It seems that this triggered his fear of abandonment. Then he felt abandoned again by your news re: acceptance to the university. Congratulations on the acceptance!

I did see these along with other things as a potential cocktail-like causation for his behavior. Our history plays a lot into it, and that I seem to have a hard time not doing the things that I "know" bother him, as well as the fact that he's going through withdrawals, etc. Perhaps in the future I can try to be more cognizant of things that may make him be afraid of being abandoned and give him some reassurance without him having to express a need for it. Or would that be too coddling? And thank you for the congratulations, as well! 

And thank you all so much for your input... .  as you can probably tell I'm feeling pretty lost in this whole mess and I don't know what I would do without this place and my in-person groups as a sounding board. You're all amazing! 

[Auspicious]

You can't change or fix him. You don't have that power.

You can figure out ways to protect yourself, and secondarily to figure out why you are drawn to an abusive situation.

Working with a domestic violence counselor could be really helpful for you. It doesn't automatically have to mean leaving. It means getting some expert outside help and advice.

[Tigerabbit]

Auspicious -

You are so right! While I know these things in my head, I've consistently had a hard time applying them, at least 100% of the time. As much as I know he has to make the choice to fix himself, I want to support him through that. My highly codependent nature makes it very difficult for me to find a balance of being supportive in a way that is ACTUALLY productive and healthy for both of us, but I'm working on it.

I think there are quite a few reasons that I'm drawn to the relationship. I'm not drawn, at least not consciously, to the abuse itself, but I know I've tolerated far too much (figuring out how to stop tolerating it is very difficult for me!). I grew up watching my mom let herself be a doormat and abused, and though she tried to teach me not to be that way, "do as I say not as I do" doesn't really work. I also have extreme abandonment and self-worth issues that further heighten my tolerance for abuse. I often imagine and hope for what life would be like if we could sort out all the baggage that we've accumulated throughout our years together. I know things will never be perfect, but I hope someday we can at least have an overall healthy relationship.

As of last night/today we have decided we need to not talk until he is clean and stable. I hope we can be strong and stick to it. I know it will be very hard for both of us. Funny how two people who exacerbate each others' problems so much can also miss each other so intensely... .  *sigh*.

[Blazing Star]

---Blazing star wrote about how DBT helped the pwBPD with their OCd thoughts---can you share how it was helpful?

Thanks

Shatra

Hhhmm, not sure exactly, but he says that his T has helped him catch the thoughts before they spin him out. I try not to get involved too much in his sessions, but I am guessing it is the mindfulness stuff "I am noticing that I am feeling X... .  where is it in my body... .  what colour is it... .  what happens if I breathe into and around it... .  " kind of thing, more witnessing and observing than getting sucked into it.

Hope that helps.

Love Blazing Star

[Rockylove]

As of last night/today we have decided we need to not talk until he is clean and stable. I hope we can be strong and stick to it. I know it will be very hard for both of us. Funny how two people who exacerbate each others' problems so much can also miss each other so intensely... .  *sigh*.

  Just keep reminding yourself that you are doing this so that you can take care of your business and he can take care of his.  We all have "issues" and addressing them without external complications is a great place to be.  Your focus right now should be on you and what you need to do to prepare yourself for your next adventure~~your education!  Congrats and I wish you much success!