how do I carry on in a healthy way in this friendship with BPDex?

[patientandclear]

Hi all.  Seeking some guidance as my BPD relationship takes a new turn.

Brief background for anyone who hasn't followed this story: I was alone for five years after my really bad marriage ended; I was raising a little girl, working hard, recovering from being submerged in dynamics with another person, and had no time for or interest in dating.  I was happy with my life & felt complete.  But then a little less than two years ago, a man I'd known, worked with and really liked for a long time asked me out.  I said yes, and immediately, he started telling me how incredible it was going to be, how important this was, how amazing I was, how he'd always hoped I was out there somewhere, he'd finally found me ... .  you all know how that goes, and how it feels.  I was so thrilled.  I thought I'd won life's brass ring.

A couple months later he suddenly ended the relationship over something we could have discussed and managed, but he had already decided it was hopeless and though he was devastated, he thought there was no alternative but to shut it down.  I was also devastated.  In retrospect, he was really anxious because we'd been super close, then had been apart, were discussing how we'd make time to be together long-term, I was discussing the possibility of moving to be closer to him about a year down the road -- there was abandonment fear and engulfment fear all wrapped up in a nice package.  But I knew nothing of BPD then and had no way to understand what was happening.

We stayed in touch for a couple months until I found it too painful and asked for NC.  He responded with a strange story in which it was as if I had left him, rather than vice versa, he didn't know why I'd been unwilling to discuss it, he'd been destroyed by this "ordeal," and so on.  We got together, talked, discussed reuniting, but I told him he'd have to work on figuring out why he'd bolted before, because it would destroy our r/s if I were constantly wondering if it would happen again.  He got cold feet then, said his therapist recommended he not resume a r/s at that time.  No problem.  I said I respected that & we could stay in touch while he worked on his issues in therapy.  He said he didn't know why he couldn't stop the inward spiral he felt compelled to follow, even in the face of the most amazing love he'd known.  :'(

Immediately thereafter, he started reaching out to his ex, whom I worked with (!).  When I found out I asked for NC -- it was so painful and felt really disrespectful, as if the problem was that I was the wrong woman, not that he had intimacy problems.  Anyway.  I spent 10 months learning about BPD and processing my intense pain around it all.  Finally decided I could see that everything is a trigger for him, that it was unlikely he'd be able to sustain a romantic r/s under any circumstances.  Somehow that made it feel like I could let go of that hurt and the dream of a romance with him, and finally just be his friend.  So I reach out on that basis, 8 months ago.  (He'd ended his dalliance with my co-worker a few months earlier.)

He welcomed the contact and immediately pulled me very close emotionally.  I was holding steady in my position that we shouldn't be more than friends though, in my own head and heart; and he explained to me that he was trying to "individuate"' and find his self, that always before had been lost whenever he was in a relationship (which was always--he'd never been alone.  He's 50).

There have been many ups and downs, ins and outs in the months since, that I've posted about here. Without deluging you with the details, he has entered some very emotionally intimate territory with me, we've struggled through some hurts and confusion, he's worked hard and so have I not to let go of one another despite the challenges.  I would say we have a genuine and deep friendship at this point.  At the same time, it's become very confusing because he treats me almost as a partner a lot of the time, yet without any obligations that come with partnership (and with no sex and very little overt acknowledgement of my importance in his life -- ironically compared to the idealization stage, it's his actions now that show me I matter to him, not his words).  He does have a very pronounced push-pull pattern.  We get very close, he then distances me, sometimes pretty dramatically (with silence, nothing overtly mean -- he's just off processing, it's clear).  But he comes back.

I've worked hard not to let him be my de facto boyfriend.  He didn't ask to be that and I don't want to put those expectations on the r/s.  I've dated others throughout, though none of those men have attained any particular importance in my life (for excellent reasons) -- certainly nothing like his importance.  He remains one of the most interesting, compelling people I've ever known.  We know each other well at this point.  It's a very valuable relationship to me.

***

So that's the background.  Current situation, as Staying readers may recall, is that about two months ago, again after we'd been very close, he suddenly decided to sell his apartment and then to leave town indefinitely.  He accomplished all that with lightening speed.  I was sad but tried very hard to "love with an open hand," just saying I would miss him.  I struggled on this board with the question of whether to tell him I loved him, had deeper feelings for him, not to try to keep him here, but so he could take that knowledge with him since we wouldn't be seeing each other in person for a long time.  In the end I didn't, because it felt unfair to dump that on him when he couldn't possibly respond in a way that would feel reciprocal.  I tried to show him my love, rather than tell him.  I think I succeeded.  We parted on very warm, affectionate terms.

Interestingly in the weeks leading up to his departure, he was very close with me.  But as soon as he left, he stopped his daily texting about small details and interesting thoughts/experiences ... .  it was as if, once he was gone, he wanted everything to feel very different from being here, including that he wouldn't have daily routine communication with me.  But he did continue with warm email communication.

Before leaving, he had told me he was planning to travel for quite a while, but return to our city after.  Suddenly, about 10 days ago, he announced that he had arrived in a new city & within 24 hours had decided to move there.  He expressed some confusion about why he was doing this ... .  was sharing his feelings about it openly with me, his excitement about a new start, his feeling that he was, as he said, "bringing up the rear of his own life," that he was behaving impulsively and wasn't sure why.

I was super sad about this decision and decided to say something.  I wrote asking, essentially, why he wasn't coming back here ... .  I said he could constantly re-start his life every year (he does make major shifts in job, location, girlfriend, with incredible frequency, this is the latest in a long long long series of sudden dramatic changes) and it would be fascinating and promising, but what happens then?  And I said there were people, including me, who know and love him here.

He has not engaged those questions at all, except to say he decided not to stay in the new city after all, and he's now heading back out on the road.  He's been quiet since telling me this, I suspect because I have pried into very tender areas, he feels very "seen," not very validated, I've asked questions he can't or really doesn't want to answer, and he realizes his choices are hurting me to some degree and feels some degree of guilt.  Yet continuing to change & move is his best strategy for feeling better, and he doesn't want to give it up.

***

So after you've made it all the way through that story, my questions are: how do I carry on in this relationship in a healthy way?  I do NOT have any aspirations to change or save him, and I don't want to torment or invalidate him with legitimate but painful questions or challenges.  I am not trying to hold him accountable for the impact of him being him on my happiness.  I do accept he is the way he is.  I wish it were different but it isn't.  I think our relationship may be the closest he can be to anyone in a quasi-sustained way, and it is valuable to me.

And yet, the past two months I've felt the impulse to be more honest with him than I have in the past, that there is a cost to these choices he makes.  Maybe that is for him to figure out, and I shouldn't feel like I have to point it out.  Yet I've also felt some need to respect or honor our relationship and its importance, to me and, I thought, to both of us, by saying that he will be giving something significant up if he randomly decides to live somewhere else.  I don't need to continue harping on this, and I suppose I will just return to ordinary communication when & if he gets back in touch.  But only validating, and acting like it's of no significance to me whether he stays or goes, felt rotten.  And dishonest.  And like I was somehow not taking him seriously as an equal partner in this thing we've been doing.

It's clear to me now that he cannot or will not answer my questions -- he barely even acknowledges any of what I write in this area, let alone engages it.  But it felt bad not saying anything about this pretty intense spiral of radical change he's embarked on.

I guess in the end my question is how to maintain integrity toward oneself and one's relationship with a pwBPD when their impulsive actions are so damaging to the r/s, yet you acknowledge you cannot change or "save" them?  :)o you just give up entirely on communicating about such things?  Just validate and accept and that's it?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[123Phoebe]

Hey P&C

*Radical Acceptance*  It is what it is, what it isn't, what it could be, what it was, what it wasn't; he is who he is and so are you

I guess in the end my question is how to maintain integrity toward oneself and one's relationship with a pwBPD when their impulsive actions are so damaging to the r/s, yet you acknowledge you cannot change or "save" them?  Do you just give up entirely on communicating about such things?  Just validate and accept and that's it?

His moods and whims could change daily while he's out and about finding himself.  Stay strong and follow your own lead, not his.  Detach from any expectations concerning him.  You can communicate any way you choose to   Just don't expect the same in return.  And that's okay!  Be true to yourself and let the rest fall however it will.  It will fall into place as it's meant to and will become clearer as time goes on... .  

Detach and live your life  

[patientandclear]

Thanks so much Phoebe.  Your guidance is always SO reassuring and enlightening.

There is something about having finally spoken more honestly about the cost that his approach to life inflicts that makes me wonder if I've stepped over a line and tried to be his therapist rather than ... .  whatever I am.  But absolute silence on this subject didn't feel good.  If I were him, even if I couldn't handle it easily or right away, I would want the person in my position to say "hey, this is going to cost you something important, if you care; I still care, don't think I'm indifferent to the potential loss."  But I have SO absorbed the need to not venture into co-dependent rescuing/saving behavior, and also so absorbed that pwBPD including mine are not going to react (initially) well to having their defenses and pain control mechanisms exposed, that it feels scary and risky to actually speak to this.

[laelle]

I personally think you have done beautifully at expressing your wants, needs and opinions with him.  You cant make him respond to it, but at least you felt you did not have to hold anything inside and hurt because of that.  That must have been somewhat satisfying to tell him that.

I do know how you feel tho about wanting to be as close as possible without pushing him to his limits.  Just to have some form of contact.  I think the wish for more would always be there tho, at least for me.  Closing doors opens new ones.     

[arabella]

I guess in the end my question is how to maintain integrity toward oneself and one's relationship with a pwBPD when their impulsive actions are so damaging to the r/s, yet you acknowledge you cannot change or "save" them?  Do you just give up entirely on communicating about such things?  Just validate and accept and that's it?

Perhaps the answer is to disconnect your needs from his reactions. If you need to say something in order to feel good about yourself then you should say it. But if you are saying something hoping for a particular reaction or as a 'fishing expedition' then you need to stop and rethink. So I'd say it's a matter of examining your motivations. Sometimes there are things that just need to be said. You need to know that you put them out there, that you tried your best to be true to yourself and true to your relationship. But you can't beat yourself up if he doesn't respond - that is not your responsibility. He read what you wrote, you did what you needed to do. Perhaps he's still digesting, perhaps he'll absorb it in bits and pieces, or perhaps he'll never comprehend any of it - it doesn't matter. You can't control his reactions so you need to let go of expectation. Don't give up, just make sure what you say is validating for you.

[MaybeSo]

I have a friendship with my ex of a similar nature.

He is in no way ignorant of my feelings and I do not feel dishonest or that I hide my feelings , but sharing my feelings doesn't mean he can meet my needs.  Because he has his own life and his own needs, separate from mine.

These men have attachment issues. It would be a very good thing to explore and individuate outside of a romantic r/s. This is a goal my ex is working on in therapy, too. This is good for him... . it's best he not cling to me in his usual push pull dance, and it's best I not do that dance with him, either.

[patientandclear]

Yes, I'm fine with staying away from a standard romantic r/s with him -- I think it's a healthy choice for him, I support it 100%, while still participating in what has been a meaningful, intimate emotional connection.

All was going relatively smoothly until he bailed & left town.  That sort of wrenched my heartstrings again because it went outside the bounds of what I thought was in question (the exact definition of our r/s was in question, where it might go was in question, how often we'd communicate or see each other was in question ... . I was OK with all that, and my acceptance helped the dynamic feel healthy & relatively stable).  But I didn't think whether we would ever see each other again was in question, you know?  It makes me wonder what we were doing all this for, if he might just pull the plug & depart permanently at any time.  Because we weren't being "just friends."  We were taking risks and coming through for each other & navigating some tender terrain, and if he was just going to leave, it makes me wonder what it was all for.  When you are in a stated relationship & this happens, it's a break-up.  Now it seems we have an arrangement wherein he can just leave & I am not supposed to even register that as a significant change, because I can have NO expectations ... . it's been jarring how total a rule that turns out to be.

But MaybeSo & others, you seem to be saying: no expectations, see what happens.  I can do that. But I did sort of nose in & ask some questions that were along the lines of "um, what are you doing here exactly? have you considered the consequences?"  They were nice and warm and affirming questions, but they were not very validating, in that I was calling into question this current impulse he has to flee & to maybe stay away.

Yes, I felt right saying what I said. He has been silent now for days since, though, and I do realize my questions probably made him feel bad.  Bad that I am questioning what feels right to him, bad in that the answers are probably unsettling, bad in that he gathers I am dissatisfied with what he's doing.

Should I have just said the equivalent of "OK, well, hope that works out for you?"

[arabella]

Sometimes being a true friends means asking some of the hard questions. You did it with care and concern and your heart was entirely in the right place. No matter how carefully you tread sometimes he will be upset. That is okay. Just make sure you are there for him, full of validation and support, when he gets back in touch again.

But, on top of all of that, are sure that his silence is actually a result of your questions? There may be other factors at play. You're just guessing at this point, right? Stop beating yourself up over hypotheticals.

Should I have just said the equivalent of "OK, well, hope that works out for you?"

I don't think so. That wouldn't have been authentic for you. It also wouldn't help him in any way. While you may need to detach from his response (or lack thereof) that doesn't mean you should just write-off everything he says or does either. You have a relationship with him, that involves asking some probing questions sometimes. You aren't judging him, you're simply giving him some food for thought - it's what good friends do. 

[123Phoebe]

P&C, it might be a good idea to roll the thought around in your mind that he might not be coming back.  How would it change things for you if you knew this as an absolute?  Would it change how you feel about him?  Would you be less concerned with how he perceives your communication?  Would it be easier to detach?

[patientandclear]

Arabella, thank you, that is all super helpful (not to mention validating!)  Yes, I know it would have been easier for him if I'd just said "cool! that sounds great -- new city, new adventures!"  But that doesn't mean it would have been the right thing to do.  It's hard for me sometimes to accept that the harder course -- the one that risks loss and doesn't make everything better -- might be the right course.

Phoebe -- I definitely do think he may not be coming back; in fact I'd give odds that he's not.  And I've accepted that since he first told me he was leaving.  I wasn't trying to dissuade or hold on to him.  But when he left, there was this theory that he was either coming back, or staying in one of a couple of places he had a reason to go for school.  The idea that he would just pick a random new place to start his life over ... . was new.  And unlike the other possibilities, it raises the "um, what ARE you doing?" question quite starkly.

My investment in and attachment to him was stitched back together over the past 7 months, when I thought we were going to be here together indefinitely and were building something kind of cool in a leisurely way without pressure of any kind.  Suddenly that got ripped apart, and I'm not quite sure what place he has in my life now.  He seemed to think his departure wasn't going to change anything for us.  I don't get that, since seeing each other in person was a big part of our connection and something he seemed to place a lot of weight on; but I was prepared to just keep communicating & see what unfolded.  It's this mini-stand off over his blank slate/new start plan that feels like it has changed our dynamic completely.

[briefcase]

Hey, great topic.  

You seem very concerend about the effect you have on him.  But, the tactics of your communication with him aren't really the issue - I think you do fine there.  You know the tools, have read the lessons.  You expressed your concerns in a calm and gentle way.  Yes, you challenged him to think about his decision, but there is nothing wrong with that.  Sometimes we need to speak our truth - and you did that, and did it the right way.  

I'm sorry you felt disappointed by his reaction.  The silence from him is hard.  As you know, his reaction is really his issue and says more about him than you.  Even knowing that, it still stings.  

My investment in and attachment to him was stitched back together over the past 7 months, when I thought we were going to be here together indefinitely and were building something kind of cool in a leisurely way without pressure of any kind.  Suddenly that got ripped apart, and I'm not quite sure what place he has in my life now.  

I think the big issue is your expectations and boundaries for this friendship.  You seem to expect more from him somehow.  But you have to keep lowering the bar of your expectations to take what you can get from him - which lately hasn't been very much. This dynamic is what feels a little unhealthy for you.  There doesn't seem to be a bottom to this process.  I am not seeing your limits, your healthy boundaries in this relationship.

At some point you have needs in this friendship too.  How do you feel about a friendship where all you did was provide him validation?  That doesn't sound like something you want.  And yes, risking the loss of the friendship is something that comes with having some boundaries.  This is hard, believe me, I know.

[rosannadanna]

You said:

Now it seems we have an arrangement wherein he can just leave & I am not supposed to even register that as a significant change, because I can have NO expectations ... . it's been jarring how total a rule that turns out to be.

This is what briefcase was referring to.  It's jarring b/c you are following his rule and not being true to yourself.  Unless you let everyone in your life that you have interactions/relationships with totally dictate the rules.  Surely that's not the case?  But I think you are letting him dictate the rules b/c it is easier to continue to be preoccupied with this guy than to let him go and face potentially being alone.  That is really scary.  You said it yourself:

It's hard for me sometimes to accept that the harder course -- the one that risks loss and doesn't make everything better -- might be the right course.

You also said:

It makes me wonder what we were doing all this for, if he might just pull the plug & depart permanently at any time.  Because we weren't being "just friends."  We were taking risks and coming through for each other & navigating some tender terrain, and if he was just going to leave, it makes me wonder what it was all for.

This sounds harsh, but I think he was using you for emotional support.  It seems your value and significance to him was emotional support.  It's cheaper and safer than therapy, but that's basically your function to him and it's unbalanced.  You allowed this to continue under his rules without getting back what you gave for a reason.  Maybe your reason was safety as well?  This is not a heatlhy relationship, even if if you just call it a friendship.  I think it is just two people engaging in a familiar pattern based on each of them fulfilling each other dysfunctional needs.

I know it's hard to hear my opinion, and it is just my opinion.  It comes from a place of love, concern, and stark similarities to you and many other women on this board.  

[patientandclear]

OK guys (and girls) -- you're asking me some good tough questions.  Let me ask you some in return, trying to make some progress on this.

After I reconnected with this guy, we'd get close, then he'd distance me, and engage in what I'd describe as the non-punitive version of silent treatment.  You know, the kind of withdrawal/distancing where a pwBPD is processing disordered feelings, dealing with dysregulation.  He'd eventually come back, but the distancing and silence was really hard for me (as it is for almost everyone who hasn't gone through the zen training of this board).

I asked here on Staying several times what to do, what this meant, how to react.  I got what seemed to be excellent advice, but maybe it was only excellent advice if I'd already determined to be in the relationship: to just wait.  Let him come to me.  :)on't stick my nose in, don't demand to know why (I sometimes would ask what happened in the beginning but he adroitly would refuse to answer, saying things like "you put me in a tough spot ... . all I can say is I needed to clarify the nature of our r/s", just picked up again.  One time he made a comment about how he behaved like a hummingbird, coming in all intense and urgent, then leaving suddenly, and said if I complained about that with him I might be right; but he didn't actually say he'd change that, and I assured him, again after getting what felt like good advice here, that he could come & go as he pleased.

It did appear that this acceptance of his inability to be steady and stable in his connection with me is what gave us the foundation for him to begin to trust me.

Briefcase, you are calling this "lowering the bar," but isn't it radical acceptance of who he is & what he can do?  And the issue is my expectations, right?  As long as I had none, accepted it for what it was, that's not inherently unhealthy, right?  I was able to do that I think.  It's just that I've found I had a hidden expectation, that he would not randomly abandoning everything he was doing here, including me, and just start over somewhere.  Arabella I believe has that Carly Simon quote as her signature, "you gave away the things you loved/and one of them was me," and when he left and even more, when he said he wasn't coming back, I realized I'd been working with the assumption that this was actually important to him because he acted like it was important to him over time, and I also assumed that because it was important, he would protect it.

Rosanna, when you say he was using me for emotional support ... . I would say he was "using me" for company and companionship and warmth and affection, and I'm not sure how different that is from "love."  Except if it is not reciprocal.  And he did attempt to be present for me and provide emotional support and share things that matter to both of us.  We really really enjoy each other and most of our r/s was spent, not on emotional support except passively, in the sense that being with someone you really like who likes you is emotionally supportive.  Until he left.

While he stayed here, we were working through the kind of hard pockets that occur with someone wBPD, and he was making a serious effort, and pushing himself.  That's why I stayed engaged.  But the leaving seems in tension with that.  I guess you guys are pointing out that I have reached some sort of boundary in this friendship.  Something about "I can't continue to believe in the value of this if you act like you would just as soon start over with another place and other people."

MaybeSo, if you see this (and any others who are writing from a position of "intimate friendship" rather than an avowedly romantic partnership), I'd love to know how you would react if your ex,with whom you had regular, emotionally intimate contact that seemed important to him, suddenly announced he was moving to go explore the world and then that he was randomly settling down in a new city to which he had no connection or particular reason to be attached to.  I feel like it would be help me to understand how others would react to that.

[MaybeSo]

Get in touch with choice. Your choice.

I make choices everyday; some more satisfying than others but when I choose to say yes to something I have a reason for doing so; some needs of mine are getting met. Rarely are ALL needs met with any one choice, and through living I learn to meet needs in new and healthy ways, this is done with making mistakes.  I can also move from a yes to a no. If my needs are less met over time or I feel over time I've made a mistake I might say no or at least modify my yes. This is a choice.

I would caution against the "he's using you for XYZ" frame unless we are willing to examin yourself that way, too... . in what ways we use others, too. Ultimately we all say yes because a need is being met or we think a need will be met.  He is getting some needs met in the

relationship you have said yes to, you said yes to this because it met some of your needs,

too! If the need has become unhealthy, that's for us to decide! We can make a correction!

If the arrangement is no longer satisfying, you are not obligated to it.

The push pull is part of attachment issues.  It would be great if your guy didn't have an attachment disorder but he does. So does mine. It sucks but it's a fact.

This is a choice.

[patientandclear]

I would caution against the "he's using you for XYZ" frame unless we are willing to examin yourself that way, too... . in what ways we use others, too. Ultimately we all say yes because a need is being met or we think a need will be met.  He is getting some needs met in the

relationship you have said yes to, you said yes to this because it met some of your needs,

too! If the need has become unhealthy, that's for us to decide! We can make a correction!

MaybeSo, thank you for this.  I think we cross-posted and yes, this is what I was trying to say.  He cannot presently do a normal romantic r/s, he has an attachment disorder, this is true.  I thought we'd found a way to do something else that was good and healthy though unusual, something where we were both meeting important needs albeit unconventionally.

You're right that it can also be re-evaluated, and it's an ongoing choice.

I would love to know how  you and others think you might handle a similar fact pattern where you were in a viable worthwhile intimate friendship with your ex & then he suddenly left town, maybe never to return, but still wanted to email you and explain all about how he was maybe going to move to X, maybe going to stay in Y ... .

Because of course he is silent now but it's because of my questions and his difficulty in processing them.  It's not like he left and launched into silence -- he has tried to stay in touch and share his thinking.  It's just that what he's thinking of doing, hurts.  And you're right, I can choose to say so (I did) and I can choose to detach.

[seeking balance]

Briefcase & SB, you are calling this "lowering the bar," but isn't it radical acceptance of who he is & what he can do?  And the issue is my expectations, right?  As long as I had none, accepted it for what it was, that's not inherently unhealthy, right?  I was able to do that I think.  It's just that I've found I had a hidden expectation, that he would not randomly abandoning everything he was doing here, including me, and just start over somewhere. 

Radical acceptance is accepting both of you actually - the fact is... . you seem to want something, I honestly don't know what - but you come to this board often asking "what is he doing, thinking, etc"... . he seems to be doing what he wants, this is who he is - radical acceptance is understanding that the dance you are doing is your version of a relationship with him.

Perhaps due to this being written and not spoken to understand nonverbal - your questions seem that you are walking on eggshells with him.  I have many, many friends all over the world and once they move - I don't expect to hear from them weekly or even monthly.

Your relationship has changed, thus your contact has changed - does this seem unreasonable to you?  I am not really sure it falls into a BPD trait because the fact is you both now live in very different worlds and he is likely moving on with his life.  Will you hear from him again, probably so - will it be with the frequency as when you were living in the same city?  Likely not - that is just a fact of when friends move away.

If you miss him - that's normal - but trying to figure him out so that you say or do the right thing, that is walking on eggshells... . radical acceptance now is he has moved and your friendship is going to change.

What is it that you need emotionally specifically from him that you cannot do for yourself or get from another friend?

If you have become emotionally attached to the point you now need to grieve a different version of the relationship with him, what could that look like for you regarding boundaries?

[MaybeSo]

My ex always does stuff that surprises me. Usually as a result of closeness, he will pull away. He hasn't moved but hes done other dramatic things to make space.

It's an attachment disorder, he will need space. If you give him space, usually the need for space diminishes. If I chase or shame him or require him to fix how I feel about it... He usually responds with needing more space. If I take care of myself, he usually doesn't need as much space. But, if he maintained space no matter what... . then, Taking care of myself is a win win anyway... . so it's all good.

[MaybeSo]

I have also come to realize I have my own attachment issues, otherwise I'd be making different choices. Honestly, I love not living with my ex anymore. I can take him in small doses and enjoy his company, but not in close quarters 24/7!  He's very intense. Im much happier having the space we have now. if I wanted something more I'd manifest it... . being with a elusive guy obviously works for me on some level. Right?

[patientandclear]

Thank you, MaybeSo.  That makes sense.

SB, he wasn't "just a friend."  As Phoebe123 wrote to me a while back, "this is not an ordinary relationship with an ex."  We were basically maintaining a quasi-partnership without sex and without stated expectations, but we were each other's primary reference point, the person with whom we each explored important issues, we were being each other's "person."  Sometimes I think this is the best, most stable kind of r/s pwBPD can build, because it is based on a continuing all-voluntary choice to align, it can accommodate space, it has no expectations.  I think pwBPD can do this perhaps with more integrity than many can in more traditionally constructed romantic partnerships.  But it is not analogous to any normal friendship.

So him choosing to move suddenly is a big rupture, almost like another breakup.  The fact that he didn't regard it that way is also somewhat shocking, though that may be because he intended to maintain close communication while he was away.  I ultimately have engaged in a bit of either "saying my truth" (not walking on eggshells), looked at positively; or shaming behavior, as MaybeSo says, looked at more negatively, about his impulsive thoughts of moving elsewhere.  Because that move IS antithetical to the relationship I thought we were building.

Yes, I do still sometimes need help figuring out what is going on in his mind because often, what the actions of pwBPD would ordinarily mean if done by someone else -- e.g., a week of silence -- is not what they mean by done by our SOs with BPD.  I need help interpreting like others here.  I've learned for example that his silence is often him processing & actually doing well by our r/s, not him not caring, which is the obvious interpretation.

Here though, I am not asking what's going on in his mind.  I was asking whether something important has just happened with his choice to leave, despite his denial that that is the case; and whether my communication about that, questioning his approach of continually restarting, was verging into co-dependent fixing, or just a truth that needed to be stated, or the beginning of a boundary in my own mind.

I guess I resist the idea that I have been "lowering the bar."  I've been figuring out what he can do, and then figuring out if I want to do it.  Until 6 months ago, the answer was "a lot, though it's not an avowedly romantic partnership," and, "yes."  Suddenly though, he's surprised me again, in a way that feels bad, making me realize I had some basic expectations that proved non-viable (that he would stay).  And sorting out how to handle that presents the same quandary I've faced when he withdraws to process something: this feels bad to me but it may just be how he is.  Do I accept it radically, changing my own expectations?  Or do I recognize it as an important boundary?

I don't think those are easy questions for anyone here.

[maria1]

Hi P & C

What I see is that it's unhealthy because he keeps hurting you and you keep taking it. And then trying to find ways to make it all OK.

I have to say that you seem to be doing what I do/ did with my BPDex. That is, making up answers to suit me in my head, a sort of fantasy, a day dream that shifts around very cleverly to fit the facts in order to keep us safe from harm and from hurt. Because the hurt that you may have to face is that the man you love has left because he doesn't care in the same way that you do. I don't say that to hurt you I say that because I think this man is hurting you and you keep letting him but making up acceptable reasons which fit with BPD because you cannot face the pain. I have an amazing capacity to do this and did constantly when I was in the r/s with my ex and following. Once I made a choice to take everything he said as a lie first up it helped me let go, bit by bit. It wasn't all lies.

The thing is we can all spin this any way we need to.

For example my ex can tell me the most amazingly deep, emotional stuff about the two of us; I've posted some of it on these boards. He knows it will keep me hooked AND IT WILL. One time I was feeling low and reached out to him and he offered to come straight up from London where he was visiting his brother. I asked what he was doing there. He said he had decided to spend time with family after a difficult Xmas. I was so impressed- I thought 'Good for you, poor you, off on your own like that, finally you are standing on your own two feet.' Then my fantasy starts to grow- I fill in the gaps. He is working on himself, alone. Great. I don't go any further in my head but I respect him. But the TRUTH is he was down there with his girlfriend, discussing marriage with his brother, weighing up her 'pros and cons'.

I have a huge gap between writing this and how I would feel if my ex were to turn up right now and work his magic on me, so please, please know that I say this from a similar place as you. I was just lucky to uncover some lies which helped me. And something in my nature sent me probing for more. I wanted/ needed to find them.

Your ex has disconnected from you, for now. You haven't disconnected from him because you can't just drop your feelings on a whim. He has done it because he doesn't need it right now, for whatever reason. You can spend a lot of energy working out why he has done that and just doing that will keep you connected, strongly. I still needed it for a long time but I got through and out the other side. YOU CAN TOO. I agree it is a choice.

How can you sustain this friendship? P & C why do you want to?

[myself]

Some times it's like we have ropes tied to us that connect us to someone else. Who tied us together? Who keeps us tied? How far do the ropes stretch before they may break? Is it up to us to untie them? Are the knots too strong? Does the rope even exist?

[arabella]

This is a new, and shocking to you, dynamic and now you have a choice to make. I wouldn't necessarily call it "lowering the bar" so much as I would call it adjusting your expectations to meet a new reality now that you have more information. Details and analysis aside - what do you WANT to do? What feels good to you? Do you want to remain friends (in this new capacity)? Do you want to go NC? You only have so many options given that you can't make him do anything.

I'm also going to suggest you go back through this thread and read your own responses, P&C - because I think you'll find that you're finding your feet as the thread progresses. Nevermind all of our input, you seem to be getting more confident as you work through the issue. Again, you need to be true only to yourself!

[patientandclear]

Hi P & C

What I see is that it's unhealthy because he keeps hurting you and you keep taking it. And then trying to find ways to make it all OK.

***

Your ex has disconnected from you, for now. You haven't disconnected from him because you can't just drop your feelings on a whim. He has done it because he doesn't need it right now, for whatever reason. You can spend a lot of energy working out why he has done that and just doing that will keep you connected, strongly. I still needed it for a long time but I got through and out the other side. YOU CAN TOO. I agree it is a choice.

How can you sustain this friendship? P & C why do you want to?

Hi Maria!  I definitely do feel we are running an experiment of taking different approaches to this & seeing how they play out, on roughly the same timeline.  I really appreciate you continuing to share your experience & insights with me.

He keeps hurting me because I keep having expectations, without realizing I am having them, and he keeps not conforming to them.  I keep thinking I know what the solid ground is we're standing on, and it keeps not being solid ground.

But I wouldn't say he is hurting me exactly. He hasn't violated any promises (except in the first breakup).  He just is behaving like a person with an attachment disorder.  I am choosing to have him in my life because I prefer my life with him in it, to without him in it.  He is interesting, smart, knows me, I know him, he likes me, I like him, we have traveled over a lot of territory together by this point and he enriches my life.

But I keep extrapolating from that that it will continue.  And then in various ways, he throws that into doubt (by prolonged silences, which I think I have finally come to terms with but that took a few cycles and a few months), or by this move, or by the decision to re-settle in a new city contrary to his previously announced plan to return here.  (And note that the plan has already changed again & he is back on the road.)

I am just trying to find my feet here.  What is this?  Is this a betrayal (which is what your "he hurts you" paradigm suggests, and what it feels like)?  Yes, if my expectations were reasonable and legitimate; no, if I made a mistake by having expectations, when he never made any promises or deals with me.  If it is a betrayal, I need to draw the appropriate conclusions.  But I've learned on this board that what feels like a betrayal may be us imposing a set of expectations where it is inappropriate to have them.  I've known for over a year that this man likely has BPD and definitely has complex PTSD and/or other attachment disorder(s).  I know his patterns.  Why am I having expectations of continuity?  I know he changes things impulsively to feel better.  Why did this shock me here?

I guess I am trying to figure out whether there is value in an intimate connection with someone who comes and goes so suddenly and with whom I can have no expectations of continuity.  I have protected myself against hurt by not seeking a romantic/sexual r/s with him, knowing that was not a viable expectation at this time.  Must I now protect myself by anticipating that at any moment a trap door could open and this person whom I am so close to, who has asked to be a big part of my life and vice versa, could just disappear again?  I guess so, if I want to be in the r/s.  That's a lot to accept, some of it very painful for me.  Whether I should continue to care & invest under those circumstances is what I'm trying to figure out.

[patientandclear]

This is a new, and shocking to you, dynamic and now you have a choice to make. I wouldn't necessarily call it "lowering the bar" so much as I would call it adjusting your expectations to meet a new reality now that you have more information.  ***

I'm also going to suggest you go back through this thread and read your own responses, P&C - because I think you'll find that you're finding your feet as the thread progresses. Nevermind all of our input, you seem to be getting more confident as you work through the issue. Again, you need to be true only to yourself!

Arabella, thanks so much for this.  Yes, I do now have to adjust my expectations in light of the additional information.  I've been trying all along to feel my way along empirically, see what happened ... . a lot has happened that was rich & good.  But now, there is also this. Not so good.  It is going to have to be incorporated into a new set of expectations about what could happen with him.

And yes, you're right, as the thread continues it is helping me figure out what I think & feel about all of this, which is undoubtedly why a board advisor suggested I start it   Very grateful for all your replies so far.

[maria1]

I definitely do feel we are running an experiment of taking different approaches to this & seeing how they play out, on roughly the same timeline.  I really appreciate you continuing to share your experience & insights with me. I think I gave up on the experiment 2 months ago. My last interactions were him doing a pushing at my boundaries, saying he wished we could have gone to the coast together, saying of course it's just friends when I stated that's what I wanted after he tried to bring the kids into it again. I said OK- come meet me at the coast, here I am, friends, let's have a walk at the seaside. I'll be here all day, come if you want, no worries if not. He said he'd come and then went silent on me, made up some nonsense about his windscreen smashing on the way and how silly it was that he didn't have my number so he couldn't even ring me. I realised it was all just a ridiculous dance between us and I just couldn't be bothered any more. I could feel anger coming toward me and I didn't want it. I let my anger go and just told him where to go. He's made no attempt at contact since except by putting a profile up on the dating site I'm on and viewing me so I'd see it. He mentions crashing waves and how much he loves the coast and the place we always said we would go to but never did. My header is 'Here we go'; his is 'Here goes nothing'!

He keeps hurting me because I keep having expectations, without realizing I am having them, and he keeps not conforming to them.  I keep thinking I know what the solid ground is we're standing on, and it keeps not being solid ground.

But I wouldn't say he is hurting me exactly. I'm not suggesting he is hurting you intentionally. I don't think that my ex hurts me intentionally. He just survives the only way he knows. But that feeling you describe of being on solid ground and then having it all pulled away is exactly the feeling I had when I was in a r/s with my ex. I remember clearly saying to him 'I just start to relax about where we are and you pull the ground away from me again He hasn't violated any promises (except in the first breakup).  He just is behaving like a person with an attachment disorder.  I am choosing to have him in my life because I prefer my life with him in it, to without him in it.  He is interesting, smart, knows me, I know him, he likes me, I like him, we have traveled over a lot of territory together by this point and he enriches my life. Yes I absolutely get that and I really want you to know that I have left that feeling behind about my ex. I NEVER thought I would but I have. I don't really like him much right now. And yet I was closer to him than I have ever been to anybody in my life. But what I need in my life as an attachment to somebody who can give that to me consistently and healthily. And if that person doesn't exist then I will be quite happy alone. Because the damage I was doing myself by trying to keep up the connection outweighed the good. My ex is just one man and there are plenty of other men out there who appreciate me in the way my ex does but who have the capacity to be intimate and close

But I keep extrapolating from that that it will continue.  Because you do not want to accept that it won't. That's absolutely understandable. What you are getting with this quazi intimate connection is amazing. But it is not sustainable And then in various ways, he throws that into doubt (by prolonged silences, which I think I have finally come to terms with but that took a few cycles and a few months), or by this move, or by the decision to re-settle in a new city contrary to his previously announced plan to return here.  (And note that the plan has already changed again & he is back on the road.)

I am just trying to find my feet here.  What is this?  Is this a betrayal (which is what your "he hurts you" paradigm suggests, and what it feels like)?  Yes, if my expectations were reasonable and legitimate; no, if I made a mistake by having expectations, when he never made any promises or deals with me.  If it is a betrayal, I need to draw the appropriate conclusions.  But I've learned on this board that what feels like a betrayal may be us imposing a set of expectations where it is inappropriate to have them.  I've known for over a year that this man likely has BPD and definitely has complex PTSD and/or other attachment disorder(s).  I know his patterns.  Why am I having expectations of continuity?  I know he changes things impulsively to feel better.  Why did this shock me here?

I guess I am trying to figure out whether there is value in an intimate connection with someone who comes and goes so suddenly and with whom I can have no expectations of continuity.   I have protected myself against hurt by not seeking a romantic/sexual r/s with him, knowing that was not a viable expectation at this time.  Must I now protect myself by anticipating that at any moment a trap door could open and this person whom I am so close to, who has asked to be a big part of my life and vice versa, could just disappear again?  I guess so, if I want to be in the r/s.  That's a lot to accept, some of it very painful for me.  Whether I should continue to care & invest under those circumstances is what I'm trying to figure out.

It is impossible to have the intimacy you wish with this man. He is showing you that and you are accepting it. It is incredibly painful and I am so, so sorry. The disorder will not let this man stay attached/ connected to you because he cannot do intimacy. Not in the way you or I can.

I am sure he will be back in time. Do you want to carry on with your life i the mean time and wait for the super high of his return? It could be the choice you make now. But if you make that choice please be clear that you will not be emotionally available for another relationship. Until you detach from this man he will keep a hold on you. He made the choice to leave. You can't get away from that. You just can't beat the disorder. If anybody could you could but it's impossible.

You deserve a two way relationship. This isn't two way. Maybe if you two had kids or were married and had a pay off that way it would be worth the work. But I think you could invest such amazing work into delving deep into you instead of grappling around inside him.

[MaybeSo]

What I see is that it's unhealthy because he keeps hurting you being who he is and you keep taking it expecting him to be someone else.

 

[maria1]

What I see is that it's unhealthy because he keeps hurting you being who he is and you keep taking it expecting him to be someone else.

 

Yep- that's better said. That's what hurts though isn't it and that's why I finished off the gaps I didn't know about my pwBPD into somebody else in my head. Because I couldn't take the hurt. I have done it in every single relationship I had until pwBPD. Patientandclear I really do identify with you but that is just my opinion because your story resonates so sharply with mine.

[123Phoebe]

MaybeSo, if you see this (and any others who are writing from a position of "intimate friendship" rather than an avowedly romantic partnership), I'd love to know how you would react if your ex,with whom you had regular, emotionally intimate contact that seemed important to him, suddenly announced he was moving to go explore the world and then that he was randomly settling down in a new city to which he had no connection or particular reason to be attached to.  I feel like it would be help me to understand how others would react to that.

P&C, if the guy I'm seeing were to up and move away, the relationship we 'have' wouldn't be.  I would detach when he told me he had sold his house without a mention of it beforehand.  I would let him know right then that the people I consider to be 'good friends' let me in on pretty major future plans.  It does take a little planning and time to sell a place, even if you're impulsive.  And I'd let him know that I'm a little freaked out by it, because I would be.  I might continue casual email correspondence here and there, after I had settled in my mind what just happened, nothing deep and heavy.  Deep and heavy is inching into his territory, someplace I'd rather not be and somewhere that I'm obviously not welcomed, or else he would have let me know he was moving in the first place, while we were carrying on as more than just friends... .

If he were to email that he decided to move to a brand new area, I'd probably reply something like, 'Huh, wow, that's a switch.  What happened to such and such place?'

Light and detached.  And no cheerleading.  Unless, he was really 'just a friend', which my guy is not.  Doesn't matter if he thought of us as 'just friends'.  What matters are my feelings about it and I'd be bound and determined to get on with it, to let go and get on with my life.

Whether I should continue to care & invest under those circumstances is what I'm trying to figure out.

What kind of investment are you considering? 

[rosannadanna]

P&C, if the guy I'm seeing were to up and move away, the relationship we 'have' wouldn't be.  I would detach when he told me he had sold his house without a mention of it beforehand.  I would let him know right then that the people I consider to be 'good friends' let me in on pretty major future plans.  It does take a little planning and time to sell a place, even if you're impulsive.  And I'd let him know that I'm a little freaked out by it, because I would be.  I might continue casual email correspondence here and there, after I had settled in my mind what just happened, nothing deep and heavy.  :)eep and heavy is inching into his territory, someplace I'd rather not be and somewhere that I'm obviously not welcomed, or else he would have let me know he was moving in the first place, while we were carrying on as more than just friends... .

If he were to email that he decided to move to a brand new area, I'd probably reply something like, 'Huh, wow, that's a switch.  What happened to such and such place?'

Light and detached.  And no cheerleading.  Unless, he was really 'just a friend', which my guy is not.  :)oesn't matter if he thought of us as 'just friends'.  What matters are my feelings about it and I'd be bound and determined to get on with it, to let go and get on with my life.[/b]

Brilliant.  You are my hero, Phoebe  

[maria1]

There's just one other thing I want to say P & C. I notice that his silences usually end just as your pain elevates to a point of considering how sustainable this whole thing is. It's similar to how pwBPDs get in touch just when NC starts to work for people and I can't explain it other than to say the connection is very strong.

What this means though is that it is very possible he will contact you shortly and everything will be explained away and he will pull you close again. Because he doesn't want to fully break the connection either. But what this does for both of you is very powerful intermittent reinforcement. Please just be aware that this is happening. Not only does it stop the pain it feels even better than if the pain wasn't there. I do believe it is the release of endorphins that gives a reassuring euphoria that we need, as addicts. It is an amazing feeling when that contact comes. I have felt it many times and i am sure i will feel it again. Please be careful with yourself.