Question about recycling

[coworkerfriend]

This is very common, they recognize their own chaos and want someone else to fix it, but at the same time they dont like being controlled, as that can be seen as criticism and they see that as invalidating. So it is common for them to give you the wheel then be quick to grab it back.

Inconsistency is the world of the pwBPD which also accounts for round's situation. Which can end up in endless recycling behavior, which of course is blamed on everyone else.

I read this quote from Waverider and it has really stuck with me.  I see this exact dynamic so often with my pwBPD.  He wants me to take care of a problem/project and when I do, I am suffocating/controlling him.

Since we work together, there has to be some element of working together on projects.  I know he recognizes this and is working on some of the chaos in his head but we seem to keep spiraling out of control.  I have been stepping back but I feel trapped in this back/forth dynamic.  

Any thoughts and advise would be greatly appreciated.   As much as I feel we make progress, I feel like we keep slipping back just as far.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[coworkerfriend]

Ok - so the same issue/problem/trigger/rage that happened earlier this month is back. He had a problem with a client.  I told him that I would take the customer - I would fire the customer - I would handle everything.  I called the customer and said I would like to meet and review some of the issues we had.  The client did not want to talk to me and just wanted to talk to my partner.  I told him that I would send a letter about the issues and he told me not to.

I just got YELLED at for not "taking care" of this client problem like I promised.  I told him I would fire the customer, I would take the appointment that I would handle it.  He kept refusing and forbidding me from contacting the customer.  Now I have disappointed him again.  I have let him down - betrayed him again.  He can't trust me.  Same story - different day.

I desperately want to JADE.  I reminded him that I had offered all kinds of solutions and he did not want me to explore them.  Then I walked away.

I have no idea how to deal with this.  Any thoughts, advise would be appreciated.

[briefcase]

He told you not to send the letter after the client refused to meet with you, but now he's unhappy that the client is still around?  Is that right?

In hindsight, it might have been a mistake to talk to him about this at all.  Maybe next time just send the letter firing the client and cc him with it.  Done. 

Looking to him for leadership and direction isn't working - not at work nor in the romantic relationship.

I kind of get the impression that there are things you would prefer he "take charge" of, and when he doesn't (or can't) it causes problems.  You get taken out of your comfort zone and look back to him for direction on things like this (firing a client - which is a tough task to do).  You both end up frustrated and he eventually loses it. 

I'm taking a stab here, does this sound right? 

 

[coworkerfriend]

He told you not to send the letter after the client refused to meet with you, but now he's unhappy that the client is still around?  Is that right?

That is right.

In hindsight, it might have been a mistake to talk to him about this at all.  Maybe next time just send the letter firing the client and cc him with it.  :)one.  

That did cross my mind.  That triggers his "I control everything in his life" he has no say in anything.  I laid out a bunch of options - I called the client etc.  He kept telling me to let him take care of it.  My problem is that I try to respect him and let him take care of it.  When push comes to shove, he dumps it all back on me.  I never take care of anything - always let him down etc.  I wanted very badly to remind him of all our conversations but I could see that it wouldn't go well.  

I kind of get the impression that there are things you would prefer he "take charge" of, and when he doesn't (or can't) it causes problems.  You get taken out of your comfort zone and look back to him for direction on things like this (firing a client - which is a tough task to do).  You both end up frustrated and he eventually loses it.

I have pretty much accepted that I have to let him control his workload/work flow.  I would love for him to take charge in many areas but I have accepted that it will take time for this to happen.  He wants things to be better/fixed/different immediatly.  When this triggered today, he reverts back to completely hating every single thing.  He can't see/remember how much we accomplished last week. I am insanely frustrated by the whole thing.  He dysregulates and I become completely black in his thinking.  I am tired.  

[waverider]

It is very infuriating isn't it.

As far as things like sending letters, what about if you draft it up and then let him sign and send it. You are doing the work and dealing with the issue but he still retains ultimate authority over it.

Same with action, take the effort off his plate, and associated stress, by presenting a proposal. Then just get his final go ahead before actioning.

But be prepared for the frustration of doing proposals just to get them canned at last minute.

By the way the easiest way to do split quotes rather than using bold, is to copy/paste/ highlight and instead of selecting bold click the speech bubble tab and that will put it in a quote box. This method wont title the source, but it is the easiest method

[coworkerfriend]

Oh I did draft it up.  He ripped it up. I don't care if he cans the proposal - I don't care if we keep or fire the client, quite frankly. 

I think he just did not want me to handle.  He just wants to be mad at me about the whole thing. 

My problem is that we keep recycling this type of problem over and over.

He wants to fight about it, he wants to pull at my emotions telling me I disappoint him, he wants to blame someone.  I don't engage in fighting with him, I stay away.  I am polite and nice and will speak to him when he asks me a question. 

When he is in a better place, we talk about this.  He is always apologetic, glad that I accept his moods and wants to move forward.

Do I just need patience to work through this?  Do I need to do more?  Am I doing too much?  I am just tired of it. 

[waverider]

Well you cant change him, you can only protect yourself from how his behavior affects you.

Maybe you have to question whether you can work together. Not sure how involved your realtionship is, sometimes there are people you simply cannot work together even without BPD thrown into the mix. The work aspect becomes another hurdle that limits your ability to handle your interactions in a healthy way, it holds you hostage at times, by preventing the healthy space to be achieved and it is another form of enmeshment.

I know you are tied together in the business, but ultimately if you keep clashing like this the RS and the business will die a slow death

[SadWifeofBPD]

This is very common, they recognize their own chaos and want someone else to fix it, but at the same time they dont like being controlled, as that can be seen as criticism and they see that as invalidating. So it is common for them to give you the wheel then be quick to grab it back.

Inconsistency is the world of the pwBPD which also accounts for round's situation. Which can end up in endless recycling behavior, which of course is blamed on everyone else.

I read this quote from Waverider and it has really stuck with me.  I see this exact dynamic so often with my pwBPD.  He wants me to take care of a problem/project and when I do, I am suffocating/controlling him.

This is so true.  When BPDH came home from rehab, he said that he wanted me to "help him."  I had some good suggestions, and he agreed to them, but he quickly didn't want me to really help him because doing so would mean that he couldn't do whatever he wanted when he wanted.  He's too impulsive and wants NO controls.

[arabella]

I'm going to go ahead and assume that you've discussed this problematic dynamic sometime when he was in a good mood. He apologized, said he was glad you could handle his moods... . and? What does he suggest for dealing with this sort of thing? (Implementation is a whole other ball of wax, but I'm curious)

Also, Waverider is right - you can't keep going like this. Something's gotta give here or both the r/s and the business are going to sink. Not to mention the damage to your mental health - this is some serious long-term stress.

[waverider]

I work from home, my partner is on a disability pension. So except for when I take specific me time we are 24/7. My partner sometimes wants to help out with my business, everytime she does this it really is like sabotaging the business for the very reasons you bring up. Even now that I have a reasonable grasp on how to interact better with her, in a work environment it is simply a bomb ready to explode.

I have given up on any expectation of her ever having a job again as she simply cannot work with people and not ending up in work place disputes within a matter of days. Her previous work record bears this out. She has the smarts and the charm to talk her way into a job, but the the BPD comes through and chaos breaks out.

I have just come to accept this. I am not willing to launch the Titanic let alone sail on her.

Not saying it cant work, but be realistic that it may not, businesses struggle to survive as it is. You need contingency plans in case you hit that icebrg.

[coworkerfriend]

When he is in a good place in his head, we have discussed the dynamic and he always says how glad he is that I can handle his moods. 

I want to be realistic and practical about the whole thing. I just feel like I can't breathe right now.  We are having a bad month with so many triggers and stress going on.

I do not know what to do. We went through a solid period when we started and now that there are so many good things happening in the business, he seems to dyregulate more. 

I appreciate the support and advise. For now, I need to figure out how to not get dragged into the chaos.

[arabella]

When he is in a good place in his head, we have discussed the dynamic and he always says how glad he is that I can handle his moods. 

***

For now, I need to figure out how to not get dragged into the chaos.

But did you discuss how to handle the moods? I mean, did he offer any ideas or input as to what you should actually DO when one of these 'moods' strikes at work (specifically re work product/clients/etc)?

I agree with Waverider - you need a contingency plan. Having a plan will help you to keep calm and navigate the storms. Not knowing what might happen, or the sense of having no recourse, is going to make for chaotic feelings. A contingency plan will give you some focus and perspective, some reassurance for yourself - plus, you may need it.

[coworkerfriend]

During the times when his head is clearer, he has told me to give him space to work things out in his head.  He has explained that even when he is so mad at me during the dysregulation and at the time he means everything he says, that given time, he will work it out and get to a better place. 

The problem with that is I give him space - I don't try to talk to him and I won't fight with him.  I don't jade or validate because I discovered that it doesn't work.  It just spins him further into distorted and dysregulated thinking.  Instead of him taking the space and time, he feels like he needs to get some sort of emotion from me.  He says horrible things, he says emotional things, he says hurtful things in an attempt to engage me.   

Even though I am quiet to him, I feel a tremendous amount of internal stress.  I am working on it but i am tired.  I am worn down and overwhelmed.  I hate to use the analogy but I wait for the storm to pass.

I do not want to end this business.  I have many good qualities, great and loyal staff and I think we keep making improvements despite these storms.  The staff thinks he is moody, charming and funny.

I feel trapped at coming up with a contingency plan.  He owns part of everything. 

[briefcase]

I feel trapped at coming up with a contingency plan.  He owns part of everything.

Many members have said that they had to be ready to lose the relationship, in order to save it.  Based on my own personal experience, this is true.

"Ready to lose the relationship" doesn't mean you want to lose it.  It means that you value your own well-being over the relationship and are willing to risk the relationship in order to be true to yourself.  

To get there, I had to ask myself some hard questions:

Am I the kind of person who tolerates being yelled and screamed at?

Am I the kind of person who tolerates being insulted and called names?

Am I the kind of person who is too afraid to share my opinion?

Am I a doormat who will do anything to try to keep the peace?

Am I capable of making an independent decision?

Do other people's opinions of me mean more to me than my own opinions?

I took these questions out of the context of my relationship.  They were questions about me in general.  I didn't see myself as the kind of person who would have these sorts of problems.  But, when I looked at my role in the relationship - I had all of those problems. My self-image wasn't matching reality.  I wasn't being true to myself.  I had no boundaries.  I had no shame.

It was a long process, but I got myself back.  Only then, after I was strong and knew myself again, was I able to see my choices clearly.  If the choice was between staying married and going back to the old dynamics, or leaving and living a life (alone if necessary) according to my core values - I would choose to leave.  No question.

With this sense of resolve and purpose, I then set about seeing if there was a third way - staying married and living an unenmeshed life according to my values.  (It's possible, but requires all the skills here!)

Saying "it gets worse before it gets better" - which you hear around here a lot - while true, is the understatement of the year.  Making some of these changes is gut-wrenchingly hard.  We have to fight our own fears, find and overcome our limitations.  This is not any easy path, but its one well worth walking.

[waverider]

The problem with peace talks and negotiations during good times is that once dysregulated they are thrown out the window that is the whole meaning of dysregulation, and those nasty things thrown at you are meant at that moment even if taken back later. So the peace talks will not prevent the things done during dysregulation.

The only way to not being faced with these episodes is to be able to deflect/defuse them or leave the vicinity. This needs space, you will have difficulty doing this while in the same work environment, resulting in you felling trapped and him knowing it and hence knowing it wont create abandonment. Employees can walk but you wont, so you will get the brunt of it.

[coworkerfriend]

I take more than the brunt of it. I take all of it.  As much as I try to deflect and defuse, you are absolutely right, I can not leave.  I have too much work to do. 

He knows and I know that I will not walk out on the business.  I have worked to hard to build it. You are right, I feel trapped.  I used to worry about the business if he left.  I don't worry about that anymore.  I can handle the business.  It may be different than it is now but I can do it.

I know how it works with the peace talks/dysregulation periods.  I have been living it.

I need to think about Briefcase's questions.  I lost myself during this.  I know I did.

[waverider]

I need to think about Briefcase's questions.  I lost myself during this.  I know I did.

These are important questions, and it was not until I truely faced the questions about what "I" deserve and have a right to have in life as opposed to just doing whatever temporary action it took to put out fires, that I found any real sense of strength, and could allow another "nonsense" just wash. You need your own personal structure back.

Take your own space wherever you can

[arabella]

I take more than the brunt of it. I take all of it.  As much as I try to deflect and defuse, you are absolutely right, I can not leave.  I have too much work to do. 

He knows and I know that I will not walk out on the business.  I have worked to hard to build it. You are right, I feel trapped.  I used to worry about the business if he left.  I don't worry about that anymore.  I can handle the business.  It may be different than it is now but I can do it.

Do you have a lock on your office door? Somewhere within the workplace that you can escape to to wait out the dysregulation? It's a small thing but it may save your sanity.

If you know that you could run the business by yourself if you had to... . why do you feel trapped? Have you spoken to a lawyer regarding your options for buy-outs or for setting up a new business? Ultimately, could you restart the business without him and take some of your staff with you? What would you need to prove in court (under your partnership agreement, or whatever you have) in order to force him out? These are sort of rock-bottom ideas, but it's better to have the answers ahead of time so you know what you're dealing with. It will also show you where your options lay so that maybe you won't feel so trapped.

[coworkerfriend]

Untangling a business is extremely complicated.  Especially when I don't believe that my pwBPD really wants things to end.  There are so many components to consider and it is difficult to do when I am overworked, over tired and extremely emotional.

His actions of showing up each and every day as well as working with the staff and clients tell me that he doesn't want this to end.

I think he is at a loss of how to deal with the dysreguation in his head.  I will not fight with him - I will not engage with him when he is raging.  I don't think he knows how to cope.

I appreciate all the thought and comments.  I want to continue to try to get myself into a better place.

[arabella]

I know exactly how complicated it is to dismantle a business - it's a nightmare. That's why I wouldn't attempt it without legal advice. The insane amount of stress you're under also makes it really hard for you to be able to deal with any of this stuff right now. I was thinking maybe an outside, professional opinion might shed some new light on the situation and hand off some of the analyzing to someone else. You need a break!

I never got the impression that he wanted things to end. And you obviously don't want to go that route either. My comments were directed more to getting you into a more solid headspace, finding the floor beneath you (so to speak) rather than actually changing the business structure right now. Knowing the options, and that you even have options, is not a commitment - it's a window.

Aside from trying to avoid his raging, what else are you doing to get yourself into that better place? What can you do for yourself so that you don't burn out?

[Grey Kitty]

I'm jumping in to this a bit late... . but I've got a couple thoughts for you:

Ok - so the same issue/problem/trigger/rage that happened earlier this month is back. He had a problem with a client.  I told him that I would take the customer - I would fire the customer - I would handle everything.  I called the customer and said I would like to meet and review some of the issues we had.  The client did not want to talk to me and just wanted to talk to my partner.  I told him that I would send a letter about the issues and he told me not to.

I suspect that your biggest mistake there was asking him about sending the letter instead of just doing it.

I know I have less than 100% of the story, but it sounds like you have a good deal of responsibility in this business, you're just afraid of his blow-ups.

I desperately want to JADE.  I reminded him that I had offered all kinds of solutions and he did not want me to explore them.  Then I walked away.

That IS progress! Pat yourself on the back for when you do it right! No matter how much you don't really want to!

Many members have said that they had to be ready to lose the relationship, in order to save it.  Based on my own personal experience, this is true.

Listen to that briefcase guy, he's got some things figured out

My experience was that when I hit a point of realizing that there were things I wouldn't accept... . things that I would feel would be losing my respect for myself if I allowed/continued... . that was when I really made my changes. And that was the real turning point.

My wife knew I really wanted to stay in our relationship. But she also knew that I had limits I wouldn't cross. I think when I was clear in my own mind about that, she "read" that in my pretty accurately.

... . well, back to practical questions... .

If you were to just decide you were through with his behavior in the business and just walk out... . what would happen, and how soon?

How long would the business survive?

How long would your personal finances hold out?

I know this isn't what you want... . I'm thinking about what your (relatively) extreme options look like.

[coworkerfriend]

Well, I knew that if I sent the letter, he would feel like I was controlling him.  Plus, he neede to decide whether we should keep the client or not.  I would have been making it easy for him and he needed to live with the consequences of firing the client or keeping the client.   I know that he needs to do things in his own way and in his own time.  I hate that he gets dyregulated so quickly from a trigger like that and I know that  I need to detach from him during those times. I struggle with that. 

In hindsight, I am always glad that I don't JADE during his rages.  I am glad I don't feed into them anymore.  When I think back, I can see we have made some progress.  But when we are deep into his distorted thinking, it is SO HARD to see the progress. 

I need to think about what would happen if I walked out.  The thing is I don't want to leave.  I want to keep making progress and working.  I want to be proud that I own a business.  I am proud of my employees and how committed they are and how hard they work.  I want to keep making things better.

MY personal finances would not hold out if the business ended abuptly.  I am WAY too entangled and invested in the whole thing.  When things seems really bad, I try to figure out how things might end.  Could I help my employees get jobs in the field?  What would I tell my customers?  When we are focused, we are an excellent team and I try to stay focused on that.

I have a tremendous responsiblity for the business but you are absolutely right, I am afraid of his blow-ups.  I have lost my confidence because of that.

I feel trapped at coming up with a contingency plan.  He owns part of everything.

Many members have said that they had to be ready to lose the relationship, in order to save it.  Based on my own personal experience, this is true.

"Ready to lose the relationship" doesn't mean you want to lose it.  It means that you value your own well-being over the relationship and are willing to risk the relationship in order to be true to yourself. 

To get there, I had to ask myself some hard questions:

Am I the kind of person who tolerates being yelled and screamed at?

Am I the kind of person who tolerates being insulted and called names?

Am I the kind of person who is too afraid to share my opinion?

Am I a doormat who will do anything to try to keep the peace?

Am I capable of making an independent decision?

Do other people's opinions of me mean more to me than my own opinions?

I took these questions out of the context of my relationship.  They were questions about me in general.  I didn't see myself as the kind of person who would have these sorts of problems.  But, when I looked at my role in the relationship - I had all of those problems. My self-image wasn't matching reality.  I wasn't being true to myself.  I had no boundaries.  I had no shame.

It was a long process, but I got myself back.  Only then, after I was strong and knew myself again, was I able to see my choices clearly.  If the choice was between staying married and going back to the old dynamics, or leaving and living a life (alone if necessary) according to my core values - I would choose to leave.  No question.

With this sense of resolve and purpose, I then set about seeing if there was a third way - staying married and living an unenmeshed life according to my values.  (It's possible, but requires all the skills here!)

Saying "it gets worse before it gets better" - which you hear around here a lot - while true, is the understatement of the year.  Making some of these changes is gut-wrenchingly hard.  We have to fight our own fears, find and overcome our limitations.  This is not any easy path, but its one well worth walking.

I need to get to the third option of staying together and getting back to myself and my values.  I have let fear control me for most of this year. Deep down I know I would be fine if he left but he won't leave.  The more I think about it I know he won't leave.  This is the best thing that has happened to him in years.  I know this.  I think it overwhelms him when he thinks of it being good.  We accept him, we work with him we respect him and love him.  He struggles with that. He does not value and love himself.   

[Grey Kitty]

I was thinking of walking out of the business in two different ways, but didn't write that clearly.

First, just leaving because you are DONE. (You have said you don't want that choice)

Second, just stepping out for a day, a week, or a month because you need a brief interlude of sanity

Does that version help you more?

... .   but you are absolutely right, I am afraid of his blow-ups.  I have lost my confidence because of that... .   I have let fear control me for most of this year.

You hit a nail on the head there. I said this on another thread recently, but I keep coming back to it.

Sometimes I let my fears control my behavior.

Sometimes I choose my behavior based other things that are important to me.

That doesn't mean I ignore my fears--they are telling me that there is something important I need to worry about. (In your case, this business and its employees are important to YOU, that is clear) But the fears are good at telling me what is important--but bad at telling me what to do!

The conclusion I keep coming back to is that I like Grey Kitty a lot more when I'm acting based on my values instead of my fears.

Hang in there--you have everything you need.

[coworkerfriend]

Wow - thank you Grey Kitty - that is what I needed to hear. I need to take more breaks for myself.  That version completely helps.

I keep losing perspective on the situation and getting completely sucked into the drama my pwBPD creates.  I know this is my problem.  I know that I have let this get out of control.  I just don't know how I got so out of control.