Explaining to him why I don't feel emotionally safe

[patientandclear]

Hi guys,

This thread is so very useful to read. Very deep and lots to think about.

Am following this one avidly. Am interested to see how this goes P&C 

He has not responded.  It was a lot to give him, for sure, and I'm not reaching any conclusions based on that.  But I think I posted above that, a few days back, I wrote him a note letting him know I was working on a more full response, and meanwhile, did he want to update me on his news (what's been going on in the three months since we were last in real communication)?  He answered that he would, yes, he definitely would write--within the next week.

So we are definitely in an odd place.  I know enough to know that it will not stay this way exactly, though.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[patientandclear]

 I never took my ex back after I ended the r/s but I wanted him back.  I think part of me ended it in the thinking that it would test him and ultimately change him because I was so special.  Plus, although I didn't think I was wrong in my key reasons - he was unfaithful and emotionally abusive - I thought the loss of us would be enough to change him. 

Yes.  So true.  When he went & got into another r/s almost immediately, instead of doing the work I'd given him the space to do & that he kinda said he sorta wanted to do  , it was a whole new level of shock, because I realized he'd given up on the story of our special-ness and decided maybe he just had the wrong woman.  That was almost too much to assimilate because of course his whole story with me was about how qualitatively different things were with me.

SM, your reflection that you never took him back but you wanted him back is subtle and it captures how vulnerable I've remained to this guy.  I drew some lines but I barely believed in them enough to maintain them, and yes, I drew them in part in order to have a stronger r/s with him.  I didn't leave him to be gone, you know?  I left him to have integrity toward our r/s.

[MaybeSo]

Hi P&C,

I'm glad you are having moments of feeling less detached from the outcome/response. This is a good place to be. Sounds like you had been holding your breath and last night you finally remembered to breath!

Question for you.

Have you shared at all here or on Personal Inventory anything about your FOO?

When you write "no foo" issues, I don't know what that means. Does it mean you were never beaten and locked in the basement? If so, good! Me neither!

But, I really don't know many human beings that have no family of origin issues. I know some human beings that insist they have no family of origin issues... . they often clearly are sitting on some family of origin issues!

Don't we ALL have FOO issues? Not beating/basement stuff, you know... . but family issues. Anxious mom, distant or absent dad, divorce, separation, illness, depression, moving a lot, bullying, painful adolescence... . are you saying you had no emotional or material challenges growing up?

[patientandclear]

Don't we ALL have FOO issues? Not beating/basement stuff, you know... . but family issues. Anxious mom, distant or absent dad, divorce, separation, illness, depression, moving a lot, bullying, painful adolescence... . are you saying you had no emotional or material challenges growing up?

Yeah.  Pretty much.  Three therapists later, no one can identify a thing in my FOO that creates this need to chase the almost-attainable reward of validation and understanding.  One therapist finally said "I know what your problem is.  Everything was TOO nice when you were growing up, so red flags don't appear in your mind when something presents itself as too good to be true."  Meh -- maybe.

I have had a series of betrayal-infused relationships since I was 16 though.  And it seems like maybe I've gotten caught in a narrative where I deal with people I trusted who end up hurting me, by fixing that & getting them not to hurt me, through my extraordinary performance, understanding, merit ... . the same stuff people often develop when they need to secure the love of a parent ... . but that started when I was a very young adult in a series of very unfortunate romantic relationship experiences?  Who knows.

Not sure it matters where it comes from, as much as that I see it for what it is, how it doesn't work, and, um, stop doing it.

Again, my heartbreak this time is that that's exactly what I thought this r/s was: a place where I would be seen and taken care of, not something that would test my tolerance for mistreatment.  That was the theme of us getting together: we were going to step away from past patterns of tolerating abuse, both of us.  And so to find that actually, it would be the uber-betrayal, going from the safest place to utter abandonment in a nano-second -- that was really, really scary to me.

[SunflowerFields]

Hi P&C,

I know some human beings that insist they have no family of origin issues... . they often clearly are sitting on some family of origin issues!

No kidding. I was one of them.

When I was just dipping my toes into this site (while still in r/s with my ex), during one of our countless breakups, I called for a free consultation the woman who shall remain nameless but is well known on this site as she offers opinionated, cut-to-the-chase BPD articles

After 15 min on the phone, she wanted to stop talking about my ex and start talking about me (and me thinking, "huh? why would be be talking about me, isn't HE the problem? That's why I called you, woman!)

Woman: tell me about your childhood

Me: oh, I had great childhood!  (   )

Woman: yeah? What about your family?

Me: Parents divorced, mom pretty much raised me on her own

Woman: And how was that?

Me: Dad is cool, saw him on weekends. Mom, she's great, she did the best that she could. She... . <blah

blah blah for 5 min>

Woman: Sunflower, your issues are not with your dad. Sweetie, your issues are with your mother.

Me: <made face like I just ate a lemon and thought, huhhh? what are you talking about?>

Low and behold... . ahh... . what a FOG that was... . for my entire life, I didn't realize I was in the fog!

Then as time went on, came the funny memories of things that I had at that time thought were normal - endless fights with mom... . me screaming on top of my lungs when fighting with her for as long as I can remember... . once, when I was about 10, even screaming at her in tears, "am I adopted?" (because I could not fathom a mother would treat her own child that way)

And, as they say... . the ball rolled... .

[sm15000]

P&C,

Did you ever notice the love shown by (either) parent was conditional or that as long as you were 'good' you were praised more. 

Did your parents make you 'feel good' for being good or helpful or understanding?

[patientandclear]

Believe me, I'd expect to find something like that at this point, and I've looked.  Therapists have looked.  Friends who are therapists have looked.  Nothing there, unless you go back to really primal stuff that is nearly universal, like, I was the oldest kid & when my sister was born I had to wonder whether my parents would still love me, and, my folks believed in crying it out & I undoubtedly had attachment panics as a baby.  Oh, and I read Disney fairy tales, and no one told me they were crap.  Seriously, that may have been the most damaging thing my parents allowed to happen to me.  I tell my daughter they are crap

Other than those very common things, nothing.  No divorce, present, loving, supportive parents, no death, no loss, no bullying, always affirmed and validated, told I was loved no matter what I did, blah blah blah.  Seriously.  Maybe the tiniest bit of extra approval for being a good and responsible kid.

I guess I am replying on this just because it can feel confusing on here for people without significant FOO issues, when folks say "this is not about this relationship."  I think sometimes, it actually can be about this relationship, or at least, patterns in adult relationships, where the damage originates.

Again, not sure it matters where it comes from, as much as recognizing what it is and that it needs to be dealt with.  For whatever reason, like SM says, I have a really hard time not wanting this guy to want me.  Not making that some important test of my value.  I spent months last year turning myself inside out to understand him perfectly, to be on the same page with him, to be what he needed me to be and where he needed me to be, in hopes that that would be enough (not necessarily to reunite as lovers, but to get him to trust me, to get him to stop pushing me away).  Ugh.  Hard to think back on it now.  My impulse to over-perform and secure love in that way -- it's bad, no matter where it comes from, right?

On the issue of origin though, could any healthy person possibly not be rocked by someone who very very persuasively appeared to care deeply for us, flipping a switch and telling us they made a mistake, never mind; or when they start acting like all these important things that connect us are not nearly so valuable as they initially believed?  I mean, it's pretty bad in itself, is it not?

[sm15000]

Nothing there, unless you go back to really primal stuff that is nearly universal, like, I was the oldest kid & when my sister was born I had to wonder whether my parents would still love me, and, my folks believed in crying it out & I undoubtedly had attachment panics as a baby.  Oh, and I read Disney fairy tales, and no one told me they were crap.  Seriously, that may have been the most damaging thing my parents allowed to happen to me.  I tell my daughter they are crap

I don't think that's universal. . .crying it out isn't attuned parenting.

And the Disney stuff has got a lot to answer for! 

I'm off to see Germaine Greer speak now. . .that'll sort me out 

[patientandclear]

You rock, SM15000!  Seriously.  That exH of yours is missing out.  Which at some level I'm sure he knows.

And if crying it out is enough to do this to a person, I am so, so glad I pursued attachment parenting with my daughter.  No wonder she looks at me like I'm off when I'm sad about this relationship.  Hopefully she can be secure enough in my love to know that she should not mess with people who cannot love her.  At least I can be a massive "teaching moment" for my kid.

My friend who is a therapist just challenged me about why I am trying to repair this -- again.  I said it was because he said he felt safe with me & wanted to make me feel safe; because he discussed his difficulty knowing where the line is between himself and another person, and how to defend that; and because I feel like he was not wrong to challenge me on my having an expectation I had no business having at this point.

But.  I just went back & re-read the whole recent email exchange with him, and really, it sort of reads like having a relationship with myself.  He says various things that fall well short of understanding me or even trying to understand me.  He's annoyed at my efforts and at me.  He makes some bare efforts, true, more than many pwBPD, to explain himself to me.  None, really, to understand where I am coming from.  Not a hint of "I miss you too."  Not a hint of "yeah, I get that that was a lot for you to create a friendship with me after all that ___ that happened with us and I get why it's complicated when I keep leaving, but I sure am glad you stick it out with me."  Nope.  Sort of a tired tolerance for my foolishness, and then at the very end, this breakthrough to a different level of self-scrutiny, where he shares that part of this is his fault and it has to do with policing the line between himself and someone else.  I'm such a sucker for that.

I know right now he is "in love" -- maybe not with a new person, but with a new place, a new plan.  I am not part of that.  So I am hard for him to attend to.  This reminds me a lot of the dynamic you describe with your ex, MaybeSo -- he only sometimes remembers that actually, this is very important.

So hard for me to know what to do with that.

[MaybeSo]

I don't think that's universal. . .crying it out isn't attuned parenting.

ditto

[123Phoebe]

I was the oldest kid & when my sister was born I had to wonder whether my parents would still love me, and, my folks believed in crying it out & I undoubtedly had attachment panics as a baby.  Oh, and I read Disney fairy tales, and no one told me they were crap.  Seriously, that may have been the most damaging thing my parents allowed to happen to me.  

P&C, no doubt your parents love you, it's nothing like that.  This sentence jumped out at me for some reason though, I don't know.  Were your parents over-protective at all?  Like, compared to your friend's parents?  :)id/do they seem to overcompensate, or anything like that?

It's interesting, is all... .

I used to put my mom on a pedestal and would feel super guilty for even entertaining the thought that she might not have my best interest at heart.  Kinda like, don't even go there.  Stop.  La la la, so anyway... .

I remember being out with another couple and we're all laughing and bitc**ng about various family members, telling our stories of kookiness, when one of the other people laughingly says to my pwBPD, "What's a funny thing about your family?"  He replies, "I can't relate at all to your conversation, my family doesn't have those issues".  I about fell off my chair!  I have experienced some weirdness with one of his family members, first hand.  I know there are issues.  We ALL have them.  Every single family has a dynamic.

I'm not at all saying you have BPD, P&C, please don't take it that way.  It's just that we learn a lot of coping methods in our childhoods that don't necessarily suit us in adulthood, type of thing.

My guy lives in a land of denial.  Same as your guy does. Same as millions of other people do... .  

What could possibly make us exempt from that?

I had to figure it out, cuz I had to know if I was in denial too... .  

[patientandclear]

Yeah, I know there often is something, but I have looked & looked, with lots of therapist help, & don't see FOO experiences as the root of this need to regain love that I once had that is then "taken" from me.  It's a pattern since I was 16 though.  Again, I don't know that it matters where it comes from, as long as I address it.

I need some help addressing it just now

So I wrote, my honest, open, responsibility-sharing message, two days ago.  He has not responded.  And of course, in the message, I said my safety issue in our ongoing communication is when he disappears and doesn't deal with hard things with me.  I said I didn't know if he could help me with that but if he could, it would really be great.

I said other things too of course, acknowledging what he said about having difficulty finding the line between himself and another person, affirming that I don't want a hypothetical romantic relationship with someone he isn't, I want the actual relationship I have with the person he actually is; and acknowledging that I had let myself assume he would stick around, when we built this cool friendship in the past year, but also acknowledging that unlike last time, when he promised me a life together, he didn't give me any reason to believe he would stay.  I said that my disappointment about that is my own issue to work out.

So this is now testing my detachment from his response.  The non-response is tough for me, though I did tell him I was not talking about small withdrawals, and that I don't need him to share all his processing with me, and I'm OK with space, which is true -- it's just that last time it was 10 weeks and that was different, and here I tried so hard to write in a way he could hear.

I suppose this is like MaybeSo said about being hit -- he has not responded before, it hurts me, now I'm standing around again to see if he does the same thing again he did before.

This is also hard because last year, I did do a lot of walking on eggshells -- I was very careful in how I dealt with him to avoid triggers.  And it worked, to an extent.  We got a lot of fun, non-threatening time together and built something.  Now I'm trying to be myself and express my needs in the r/s and he doesn't like that I am expressing needs and wants.  Or he doesn't like those needs and wants.  And therefore, he is gone.

I need to care less about that, right?  Not more?  I do feel pressure to please him in order to get love.  Right now I am not pleasing him and I am being excluded/cut off.

I am feeling some confusion about the intersection between radical acceptance and "he is who he is," and, "be yourself, and it's OK to say what you feel."  I think I've interpreted radical acceptance and "he is who he is" to mean I am not supposed to express any desire that things be different than how he wants them to be, or any feeling at odds with his optimal arrangement.  Can one of you advanced people help with that -- what is it to radically accept that he is who he is, and still be authentic in the relationship?

Is it that one is honest about one's needs and feelings, even the ones we know the other person is unlikely to be able to handle; and yet, if the other person cannot meet those, you don't insist that they do, you meet them some other way?

What is the point of expressing needs and feelings that we know the other person is unlikely to be able to handle?

[KateCat]

I am feeling some confusion about the intersection between radical acceptance and "he is who he is," and, "be yourself, and it's OK to say what you feel."  

P&C, I'm just wondering if there's something you feel you haven't yet said? Is there some "ultimate" message you need to convey to him in order to be at peace?

Do you need something like "validation" from him that you've been deeply hurt?

[patientandclear]

(Hi KateCat!  Always good to see you!)

No, I don't need that (validation that he knows he hurt me) -- not at all.

I want(ed) to continue the interesting, rewarding r/s we were having over the past year, a r/s that was growing and in which we seemed to be developing increasing trust.  All that got thrown off kilter when he left town and changed our communications dynamic (went from frequent in person meetings, daily emails, near daily texts about small things like "I bought that computer" or "it's snowing!" and medium things like "read this quote -- what do you think it means?" to big things like "I shared my work with this art curator and she was critical and that was hard to hear" ... . to no texts, email every few days, obviously, no in person meetings), all without seeming to register that that was a big change.  Then announced he wasn't coming back, even though when he left, the last plan was that he was probably coming back.  Then I asked some questions about why he was trading in the old for the new, and he just abandoned the conversation and, for all intents & purposes, the friendship.

What I want is a meaningful relationship with him, if that is possible -- to find the ground we can share that works for both of us.  It is not clear if that exists.  I'm trying to find that out.  My way of trying to find it out is to have a conversation that he seems somewhat open to having -- that in his most recent message, he seemed to invite -- but seems to find very difficult too.

[KateCat]

Who could resist inviting communicating with you?  Probably not even him.

This could go on for years!

[myself]

what is it to radically accept that he is who he is, and still be authentic in the relationship?

What is the point of expressing needs and feelings that we know the other person is unlikely to be able to handle?

We can also radically accept ourselves, which helps us be authentic.

Walking on eggshells, saying it the way we think they want to hear it, keeps us from being our authentic selves. It's a guessing game more than actual growth. If the pieces don't add up, where's the line between persistence and wasting time? There's a difference between doubting a connection and there not being one.

If we're really being ourselves, grinding away or walking away are one and the same. It's all heading in the same direction. When there's a choice, the answer is "Who am I really?"

[sm15000]

I need some help addressing it just now

I do feel pressure to please him in order to get love

Have you seen a new book out called 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist'?  I have read parts - it may be helpful to you.

I am feeling some confusion about the intersection between radical acceptance and "he is who he is," and, "be yourself, and it's OK to say what you feel."  I think I've interpreted radical acceptance and "he is who he is" to mean I am not supposed to express any desire that things be different than how he wants them to be, or any feeling at odds with his optimal arrangement.  Can one of you advanced people help with that -- what is it to radically accept that he is who he is, and still be authentic in the relationship?

There is nothing wrong with expressing your feelings to him but you have to do without implying he has to change or do something about it.  You'll have to decide your wants and actions but sort of,

I want you to keep in contact more goes to - I've decided that I need consistent contact in a friendship to feel emotionally safe

I want you to trust me more -  It's important to me to have friendships where people build trust

Why are you trading in the old for the new - I've realised that friendship may involve changes but some consistency is important to me

You can't change him or expect him to make you feel better, that's the radical acceptance but you can still hold your beliefs & values and remain in control of them.  You may not become so invisible to him then  

[Grey Kitty]

I am feeling some confusion about the intersection between radical acceptance and "he is who he is," and, "be yourself, and it's OK to say what you feel."  I think I've interpreted radical acceptance and "he is who he is" to mean I am not supposed to express any desire that things be different than how he wants them to be, or any feeling at odds with his optimal arrangement.  Can one of you advanced people help with that -- what is it to radically accept that he is who he is, and still be authentic in the relationship?

You are getting there on radical acceptance, but not quite:

It means accepting that he is who he is, including wanting various things he wants.

It means accepting that you want what you want also.

If there is a conflict between what he wants and what you want, accept it as well.

It doesn't mean when there is a conflict between his desires and your desires, don't say anything about it. (That is a failure to be authentic in the relationship)

Is it that one is honest about one's needs and feelings, even the ones we know the other person is unlikely to be able to handle; and yet, if the other person cannot meet those, you don't insist that they do, you meet them some other way?

What is the point of expressing needs and feelings that we know the other person is unlikely to be able to handle?

Yeah, expressing needs and feelings that somebody isn't likely to be able to handle is a problem. That's where the tough choices for you come in:

You can let go of those needs and keep the relationship. You can look elsewhere for those needs, and keep the relationship without them. Or you can test the relationship... . and it will be stronger if he passes the test, and likely fail or be much reduced if not.

Whatever... . I see you working hard on your tough choices. Good work there.   Not easy work.

[123Phoebe]

What I want is a meaningful relationship with him, if that is possible -- to find the ground we can share that works for both of us.  It is not clear if that exists.  I'm trying to find that out.  My way of trying to find it out is to have a conversation that he seems somewhat open to having -- that in his most recent message, he seemed to invite -- but seems to find very difficult too.

P&C, this is super hard because your relationship is down to email only.

Is this enough for you?

Can you continue to be interested in his thoughts and endeavors without being a physical part of them?

It seems that the common ground at this time anyway (Radical Acceptance), would be sharing a friendship through email.  And not everyday emails.  Things change when friends are no longer in our sphere.  Every day life gets in the way of connecting with people on a daily or even weekly, monthly basis.

What does friendship mean to you?  Have you asked what it means to him?

Put yourself in his shoes for a sec... .

Here you are out traveling around having a ton of new experiences!  You've got this friend back home that you used to go out with, but promised you an enduring friendship with no strings attached in its place, no ulterior motives, just pure friendship.  Everything seemed so cool, although you could somewhat 'sense' there was more going on underneath with them.  You backed off a little whenever you sensed it and everything was cool again... .   A little drama here and there concerning your behavior and how it bothered them, but not enough to end the friendship or anything.

Then you find this pretty amazing town you hadn't even imagined being drawn to.  You can't wait to tell your awesome friend about it!  Hmmf, they don't feel as enthusiastic about it and start questioning why in the world you'd do something like that?  And get all deep about it, saying the 'love' word and whatever... .   You're over it.  You just want to feel good about something you're doing for yourself and thought you could share it with your friend.  You spend a few days there feeling icky about something, not necessarily about what your friend said, but the place doesn't feel right for whatever reason and you're off traveling some more... .

Out of the blue after a couple of months your good friend sends an email!

In it, it says that they don't feel good about not connecting with you.  They want you to know why they don't feel emotionally safe because of some pretty heavy feelings on their part about your leaving tendencies.  You have NO idea what to do with their feelings, can't really make sense of them, it's coming off like you're 'in a relationship' and they're expecting you to be able to share your feelings concerning theirs!  When you don't know what their feelings really are or what they mean!  Confusion!  What are you supposed to do or say when they're right, you don't live near each other anymore.  You can't do those things together.  Yep.  Okay... . Do you say, 'sorry I hurt your feelings?'  You don't know what to do?  You're not moving back anytime soon.  You just ignore it after a while, can't deal with it.

They didn't act this upset when you actually left.  What gives? 

What happened to that enduring friendship that was promised?

         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Looking at it from this possible point of view, does it give you a clearer perspective as to how to address certain things and let your feelings be known in an honest way while respecting and Radically Accepting what is?

[patientandclear]

I'm sure that is how it looks like from his perspective.  What it leaves out, of course, is that he pulled me very close & treated me like much more than a friend for many months -- months of special plans and conversations and topics and meeting family and so on -- that he initiated.  Until traveling & then the new place took the place of that.

That is the issue I am processing.  This was like another breakup except, because of the "friends" label, he didn't have to account for stepping away from it for no particular reason.

When I asked in an earlier thread, Phoebe, how you & others who have these sort of undeclared special relationships would react if your pwBPD just suddenly moved away & wanted to pretend that you'd only ever really been email buddies -- just at the point where you'd made some seeming breakthroughs through a lot of mutual effort in the relationship -- you said it would be close to over for you. You'd explain this isn't what you had in mind, you'd retreat to a very superficial level of engagement, and that would be it.

Maybe you are asking me if that's what I want to do, too, when you ask me if email is "enough" for me?  Well, sure, it would have been enough if we were normal friends.  We were not normal friends -- as you said once, this is not a normal friendship with an ex.

So I think my answer is yes and no.  Yes, I probably will continue to email him.  No, it is not enough for me to continue to care about him in the way that I have.  He broke things with me, again.  Even though he is now in full retreat from any acknowledgement that it was ever any different than this, could have been expected to be any different than this.  I know differently.  I thought this was special.  I've been reminded that it wasn't really all that special, to him.

He responded to my message, BTW, after several days.  He said it seems we both projected onto the other & were both disappointed.  I am too exhausted to ask what he meant by that, nor, I think, does he wish to be asked.  He moved on to report his news, shifting into more normal communication, though I can tell from the font type that he cut & pasted the "news" section from another email message (so that's making me feel pretty special, too).

We're done with the drama.  And I am not going there the next time when he suddenly starts acting like I am super-special and important again.  Just not going to follow.

[123Phoebe]

We're done with the drama.  And I am not going there the next time when he suddenly starts acting like I am super-special and important again.  Just not going to follow.

We don't need anybody else to tell us or act in ways that show us how special and important (or not) we are, P&C.  When we have a solid view and foundation of ourselves + a decent understanding of what personality disorders are all about, it makes it easier to separate what's our stuff from their stuff.

Grieve the loss... .   The good stuff is real.  The bad stuff is real.  The bad stuff doesn't magically go away because the good stuff makes us feel amazing.  And the amazingly good stuff doesn't go away on account of the bad stuff.  It is what it is and we're a part of it, like it or not. 

We  c o n t r i b u t e  to the dynamic, we're 50% of it.

All of the lessons and tools and info available here helps us with all relationships, not just BPD ones.  Mostly they teach us how to have a better relationship with ourselves  

And that will get us places we never dreamed imaginable

[sm15000]

I thought this was special.  I've been reminded that it wasn't really all that special, to him

This is a horrible realisation because it seems so real.  I said much the same thing to my ex and that it was a hard lesson to learn.

Now, I can see it is not it was not special but that it cannot be maintained.  It won't make you feel any better at the moment P&C because it is raw. . .and the fact that you went in for another round after 10 months of NC and feeling more enlightened and aware of the issue might make it doubly hard to bear 

But, I think when you process this you will heal. . .and in a different way, a stronger way. . .and whether you keep contact or not, you will be able to manage this much better 

[rosannadanna]

Hey P & C,

I knew someone who had an idyllic childhood.  She was 26 and pregnant with her second child when I met her.  She had relationship from 15 to 18 with insecure controlling high-school boy.  She met her ex-husband in college, married and had first child.  He cheated and proly had BPD traits.  She then started a relationhip with father of second child.  He is emotionally cut off and narcissistic.  When I met her, she was pregnant and very preoccupied with her partner.  Over time, she was able to emotionally detach from her fantasy relationsip and then from him as a partner.  Why did she have this pattern with A-hole partners who were immature and not able to reciprocate in a healthy romantic relationship when she herself had parents who were great role-models and she had a very strong sense of herself? Hmm... . not really sure, but some possibilities are:

-having a "serious, grown-up" relationship as a young teenager may have a big impact in influencing our actual grown-up relationships b/c it sets a pattern.  It can be positive if our partner is loving  and allows for individuality or it can be negative if not.  My son has been dating his girlfriend since he was 15 and they are inseparable.  I have monitored the "emotional environment" of the relationship and they are open about when they have problems.  This situation is rare.  The kids are pretty together, all parents communicate, and one of the kids has a mom who does this for a living.  As a mom I am not crazy about it, but it is reality and I make the best of it. 

-She is the oldest girl with a younger brother.  Maybe she is oriented to "caretake" men (I have a little brother and I know I have this orientation)

-She had self-esteem issues right around the time she met her teen bf and they seemed to be alleviated by the relationship, so maybe she made the association of "having a romantic relationship makes me feel better about myself"

So IMO, it is possible to set this up without major FOO issues.

With that said, are you happy?

I mean is your preoccupation with him/relationsip with him intruding into normal functioning?  Is affecting your mood to the point that you are having a hard time functioning or other relationships are suffering?

If you are generally happy, functioning well, and have a good quality of life, I don't see anything wrong with your preoccupation.

Do you want to reduce or eliminate your preoccupation at this time?  If you do, then why?

You are having a relationhip with this man.  It may be unaknowledged, lopsided, and based on fantasy, but it is a relationship.  I guess whether it actually is a relationship could be debated, but it is a life experience for you and are learning things from it.  So it is useful to you and has purpose.

Take care

[MaybeSo]

These relationships can assist you in strengthening your own developmental gaps for the very reason that they are so hard!

An ordinary childhood may simply not be enough in our current culture to strengthen a healthy sense of self... . with the loud messages we get 24/7 from Disney and Hollywood and Madison Ave... . don't most kids grow up thinking on some level that a huge part of life is about finding that special 'other' to complete you? And to do that you have to be pretty enough, witty enough, sexy enough, thin enough, bubbly enough, alluring enough, smart enough, wear the right clothes, drive the right car, make enough money... . To stay grounded and to have a solid sense of your own worth in commercial America today would take a very extraordinary upbringing indeed.

Non clinically, your guy is a commitment phobe. Unable to settle down, a Casanova, a player, a heartbreaker, a wanderer, an escape artist. They are out there. See the movie

Somethings Gotta Give, Jack Nicholsons character.

In a therapists office she might make a chart note regarding 'attachment issues'.

No matter the label or variation on the theme, this style of relating has been around forever.

It felt special so it was, it just doesn't last. He has attachment issues, so he doesn't stay.

But, if he didn't have attachment issues, it still would not have stayed the same. It still wouldn't felt SPECIAL forever.

You stay together, you get married, now your lives are about daily living, kids, a mortgage.

You snore, he farts in bed. How many married couples who STAY wake up and have that

rarified sense of how incredible they feel  and how romantic and juicy and swept away this

relationship makes them feel?  Probably zero. Real life and real relationships do not make us feel fantastic and special in  that way.

Because bottom-line it's our job to assign meaning and value to our lives, that's an inside job.

It is painful to have loved them lost... .

It is also painful to have never loved at all.

On this board, we have all at least had that dream experience of falling in love and feeling we were part of something special... . many folks would kill just to have that feeling for even one day!

But it never really lasts like that, anyway. Even if he were to stay.