Help me to set boundaries

[nomadgirl]

Hi - my uBPDh regularly gives me the silent treatment for days at a time after he 'dysregulates' (love finding that word!  finally have a name for it!).  He will also be verbally insulting - all my fault, I can't communicate, etc.

I do leave the room... . but the silent treatment only ever ends (days or a week later) when I give in and try to reach out to him.  I do this calmly, asking him if we can talk again.  He always says 'what's the point, nothing ever changes', and then all the usual points about what I did wrong, but then eventually we can normalize. 

We have 3 small kids (S3, S3, S5).  There are times when I'm soo tempted to just leave the house to show him that I really have a firm boundary that at some point I just can't put up with this anymore... . but I can never leave my kids.  (He is a great father by the way).  At the same time, while I know he sometimes thinks of leaving, he won't because he doesn't want to leave the kids.  I also would never want to take the kids and leave because of the disruption to them.  (we have no family anywhere close to us - we'd have to go to a hotel).

So... . how can I set firm boundaries to try to get some level of basic respect?

Thanks

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Grey Kitty]

We've got a workshop about just that subject. I remember crying when I read it the first time after I arrived in these forums:

BPD BEHAVIORS: Silent treatment - verbal abuse.

Unfortunately, you can't make somebody stop the silent treatment. The best thing you can do is find something else you enjoy doing that doesn't involve them. Boundaries are a fantastic tool for relating to a pwBPD, but they don't help much with this.

You can try to change how you work on getting him to come "back" from that state.

I'd recommend working on validation of his feelings. For example when he says "What's the point, nothing ever changes" you could validate how frustrating it is to feel that way.

Validation is hard... . we do have lots of resources on that too, but I'm going to recommend you start a step ahead of that: Make sure you don't say things that are invalidating first.

He probably accuses you of the most unreasonable and outrageous things you never did... . and it is natural to want to defend yourself against those accusations. Unfortunately, that comes across as invalidating to him and makes things worse. Read this workshop:

TOOLS: Stop Invalidating Your Partner (or the BPD person in your life)

Hang in there!

[briefcase]

Also, as far as leaving the house, you can take a time out with the kids when things start to get verbally abusive and just leave for a few hours - long enough for things to calm down.  You don't have the leave for the night necessarily.  Just pack up the kids and head to the mall for a few hours - telling him you need some time and tell him when you will be back.  Sometimes, just getting away for a while is enough to restore some calm. 

[DreamFlyer99]

We've got a workshop about just that subject. I remember crying when I read it the first time after I arrived in these forums:

BPD BEHAVIORS: Silent treatment - verbal abuse.

Unfortunately, you can't make somebody stop the silent treatment. The best thing you can do is find something else you enjoy doing that doesn't involve them. Boundaries are a fantastic tool for relating to a pwBPD, but they don't help much with this.

OH BOY do I "get" this one! When we were first married my H used to not speak to me for several days at a time. In later years he told me that he felt like he "was so awful no one should have to deal with him." Of course that fits the BPD model of poor self image and sense of self and all those other "self" things... .

He has changed over time and is much more blustery and in-your-face about his hurts. Ah for the good ol' days of silence... . (just kidding! --well, partly... . )

Hi - my uBPDh regularly gives me the silent treatment for days at a time after he 'dysregulates' (love finding that word!  finally have a name for it!).  He will also be verbally insulting - all my fault, I can't communicate, etc.

I do leave the room... . but the silent treatment only ever ends (days or a week later) when I give in and try to reach out to him.  I do this calmly, asking him if we can talk again.  He always says 'what's the point, nothing ever changes', and then all the usual points about what I did wrong, but then eventually we can normalize. 

Thanks

Oh I do feel ya, nomadgirl! There's so much I swallow down at those times of "what's the point" and then the list of my wrongdoings... . and it's painful to swallow it, and costs me physically and emotionally since it goes straight to my Fibromyalgia and stirs things. I look forward to understanding better boundaries too on these things. it's a journey alright!

Also, as far as leaving the house, you can take a time out with the kids when things start to get verbally abusive and just leave for a few hours - long enough for things to calm down.

I have hoped for this and gone for long walks after the "dysregulation"--(yes, it helps to have a word for it) but i'm the only one who's in a better mood after! my H is usually still feeling pissy and has been storing up what he wants to say for when I get back. Fortunately my endorphins help me through that!

Looking forward to learning more,

DreamFlyer99

[nomadgirl]

thank you... . I've been reading as much as i can over the last few days - once again, thank you again to all who participate in and moderate this site - you are changing my life!

I think DH has elements of OCDP as well as BPD - most of our arguments are because I didn't 'listen' because I didn't understand EXACTLY what he meant, or if I failed to communicate something to him in exactly the way that he thinks I should have.  (many other things too... . but these are the most frequent ones).  Something small sets him off, at first I don't realize that I've awoken the beast so I blindly JADE, only to then realize I've gone down the rabbit hole... . and it's too late, we're off into insults and potentially days of silent treatment.

So... . with all your input and the accumulated wisdom from all I've been able to read, here are the boundaries that I think I will (try!) to set - please let me know if you think I'm missing something or could do better -

1.  Refuse to accept repeated criticism / insults - 'I understand you're frustrated because I do / said that.  [then change subject]'.  If he won't let it go, then walk away.

2.  During silent treatment episodes - continue to behave normally, making sure I remain emotionally healthy.  Treat him as normally as possible in front of the kids so that they don't think silent treatment is normal behavior.

3.  Do a better job of doing things for myself / stopping the isolation - I'm proud of myself for getting him to agree this w/e that I would go and meet up with my family with the kids and without him sometime next summer (because I know he would hate it)!  (Family all overseas so this is a big deal to have them all come here together).

4.  If I see the kids start to treat me with a lack of respect or see any other interpersonal issues with them - that's a red line.  At that point I think divorce would be best.  For now they are so young and he is a great father with them (though very controlling) that I think staying is better than leaving.

5.  Any raging episodes while kids are around (none so far) - I would expect him to leave or go and hide somewhere immediately - if not, I take the kids and we leave for a while.

The only thing I'm really struggling with is how to set boundaries with the relentless criticism of how I did things - didn't put things in the right place, say things the right way, etc. - how do I stand up to this?  These aren't pure insults - they're just either OCPD unreasonableness or in some cases he might be right but to any normal person, whether there are a few crumbs left in the sink is not world peace!  I'm trying to just respond by validating... . but I'm just not sure that these are really things I should be validating given that they are often asking for unreasonable perfection.

Thanks!

[DreamFlyer99]

The only thing I'm really struggling with is how to set boundaries with the relentless criticism of how I did things - didn't put things in the right place, say things the right way, etc. - how do I stand up to this?  These aren't pure insults - they're just either OCPD unreasonableness or in some cases he might be right but to any normal person, whether there are a few crumbs left in the sink is not world peace!  I'm trying to just respond by validating... . but I'm just not sure that these are really things I should be validating given that they are often asking for unreasonable perfection.

Thanks!

What i found in trying to do the things H complained about ("complain" is too mild a word... . ) like when he'd ROAR! about the stew i made being too salty/having tomatoes, etc etc etc and fixed it/did it differently, HE STILL WASN'T HAPPY. The thing is, they're still trying to get US to "fix things" instead of doing it themselves. My answer to the quandary has been to do what i'm gonna do, validate that "it must feel frustrating that i moved your deodorant when i was organizing the bathroom cabinet" rather than actually try to "fix" the problem. He'd complain about "too much stuff in the shower shelf!" so i'd move mine, then he'd say "you didn't have to do that" and i'd say in confusion, "but you said?"

So rather than trying to FIX the stuff i'm trying to learn to Hear What He Has To Say but not jump when it sounds like he's saying "jump!"

i love the boundaries you've come up with--so clear and lovely, like the summer sky!

[bruceli]

Hi - my uBPDh regularly gives me the silent treatment for days at a time after he 'dysregulates' (love finding that word!  finally have a name for it!).  He will also be verbally insulting - all my fault, I can't communicate, etc.

I do leave the room... . but the silent treatment only ever ends (days or a week later) when I give in and try to reach out to him.  I do this calmly, asking him if we can talk again.  He always says 'what's the point, nothing ever changes', and then all the usual points about what I did wrong, but then eventually we can normalize.  

We have 3 small kids (S3, S3, S5).  There are times when I'm soo tempted to just leave the house to show him that I really have a firm boundary that at some point I just can't put up with this anymore... . but I can never leave my kids.  (He is a great father by the way).  At the same time, while I know he sometimes thinks of leaving, he won't because he doesn't want to leave the kids.  I also would never want to take the kids and leave because of the disruption to them.  (we have no family anywhere close to us - we'd have to go to a hotel).

So... . how can I set firm boundaries to try to get some level of basic respect?

Thanks

Lately, especially this week end, I began  calmly call DW out on her BS statements and behaviors.  To my surprise, instead of the usual raging she actually said SORRY on numerous occasions and commenced to calmly discuss the topics at hand.  In my case I have been implementing the "no one respects a door mat" principle and it seems to be working.  Will keep every posted as to how it is working.

[Grey Kitty]

... . at first I don't realize that I've awoken the beast so I blindly JADE, only to then realize I've gone down the rabbit hole... . and it's too late

Getting out of the habit of JADE-ing with anybody (BPD or not!) is a good idea--Well regulated people don't explode when you do it with them, but nobody likes that sort of invalidation. Just taking that stuff out of your normal way of speaking as much as possible is a great thing to do.

So... . with all your input and the accumulated wisdom from all I've been able to read, here are the boundaries that I think I will (try!) to set - please let me know if you think I'm missing something or could do better

Let me say first that this is a great sounding list, but not all of them fit are enforcing boundaries. A quick primer on how enforcing a boundary works:

He acts in a (specific) way which is against your values or hurtful to you.

When he does it, you enforce your boundary by taking an action which will protect you (or your children) from the consequences of his action.

1.  Refuse to accept repeated criticism / insults - 'I understand you're frustrated because I do / said that.  [then change subject]'.  If he won't let it go, then walk away.

This one is an excellent example of enforcing your boundary.

2.  During silent treatment episodes - continue to behave normally, making sure I remain emotionally healthy.  Treat him as normally as possible in front of the kids so that they don't think silent treatment is normal behavior.

3.  Do a better job of doing things for myself / stopping the isolation - I'm proud of myself for getting him to agree this w/e that I would go and meet up with my family with the kids and without him sometime next summer (because I know he would hate it)!  (Family all overseas so this is a big deal to have them all come here together).

Both sound good. I wouldn't say either one is boundary enforcement.

4.  If I see the kids start to treat me with a lack of respect or see any other interpersonal issues with them - that's a red line.  At that point I think divorce would be best.  For now they are so young and he is a great father with them (though very controlling) that I think staying is better than leaving.

That kind of boundary where the only way you can protect yourself and your children is leaving is really tough to face. I hope you never have to. 

5.  Any raging episodes while kids are around (none so far) - I would expect him to leave or go and hide somewhere immediately - if not, I take the kids and we leave for a while.

Another good one, however "expecting him to ... . " is not an action, and only allows things to ramp up more while you are waiting.

I would recommend that some time when you are talking with him and he is not dysregulated, that you make it clear to him that you will not tolerate any raging on his behalf in front of the kids or at the kids.

If it comes up, just announce that you and the kids are going away for (whatever time period seems reasonable to you) calmly and firmly, then go.

The only thing I'm really struggling with is how to set boundaries with the relentless criticism of how I did things - didn't put things in the right place, say things the right way, etc. - how do I stand up to this?  These aren't pure insults - they're just either OCPD unreasonableness or in some cases he might be right but to any normal person, whether there are a few crumbs left in the sink is not world peace!  I'm trying to just respond by validating... . but I'm just not sure that these are really things I should be validating given that they are often asking for unreasonable perfection.

The point of this sort of boundary enforcement for verbally abusive behavior is that you feel horrible and your self-esteem gets damaged when he pulls this stuff.

Whether he is trying to put you down, or doing it for any other reason, it still harms you, and you still are wise to take actions to prevent yourself from being subjected to it.

Now as for validating:

First, make sure you know your own mind. If you aren't calm, and aren't feeling some compassion for him at the time, you probably won't validate successfully. I find just getting out of the conversation before I made things even worse was sometimes the best I could do.

Next, when you validate, you aren't validating that his thinking is correct. You are validating that you understand what he is thinking and feeling.

So instead of "agreeing" that a few crumbs in the sink is a horrible thing, validate that he is really bothered by a few crumbs in the sink. This is completely true--it really does upset him a lot, or he wouldn't blow up over it!

Does that help?

[Grey Kitty]

I have hoped for this and gone for long walks after the "dysregulation"--(yes, it helps to have a word for it) but i'm the only one who's in a better mood after! my H is usually still feeling pissy and has been storing up what he wants to say for when I get back. Fortunately my endorphins help me through that!

Another possibility is that if you come back and find more dysregulation, go away again, perhaps for longer, as he clearly needs more time before he's fit company.

I've read of people here who first leave for ~20 minutes if things start to spool up, and then if it isn't better, go away for a couple hours... . and if that doesn't work, call it a day and try tomorrow.

Another tip is before leaving the first time, go to the bathroom--it gives you a minute or two, and you can calm down and think of what sort of validating things you might say and make sure that the next thing out of your mouth at least isn't invalidating.

[DreamFlyer99]

Another possibility is that if you come back and find more dysregulation, go away again, perhaps for longer, as he clearly needs more time before he's fit company.

I've read of people here who first leave for ~20 minutes if things start to spool up, and then if it isn't better, go away for a couple hours... . and if that doesn't work, call it a day and try tomorrow.

Another tip is before leaving the first time, go to the bathroom--it gives you a minute or two, and you can calm down and think of what sort of validating things you might say and make sure that the next thing out of your mouth at least isn't invalidating.

Oh wow! Good advice, thank you. There were times last year when we were in the thick of the worst of his behaviors that I would go walk the dog for over an hour only to find him still "in a mood" when I returned. Don't know why I never thought to just leave again for longer. He's not been having as many "events" as he was then, thankfully, and I know stuff I didn't know then about what's going on with him. But still--I know it's good self care to remove myself, especially with my fibromyalgia because it's greatly affected by his ranting, but then i'm so tired with the fibro it's difficult to make myself go somewhere.

Also my boundaries are still pretty mooshy around dealing with the times he removes himself when I say I need to leave the room, and then comes back to see if I still feel that way and throw another dart. I think I've mostly been too easily forgiving and need to get tougher. I think it's one of those things of "well, he's LESS crazy than he was, so... . "

By "call it a day" and try again tomorrow, do you mean leave for the night?

I like the bathroom idea, tho he'd probably follow me in at that point since he hates for me to walk away from him or tell him to go elsewhere. It's probably too much of pinching the sleeping bear if I say "this conversation isn't going anywhere, we're repeating the same things over, so I need to go for a walk or something."

Mooshy. My boundaries are often still too mooshy. i'm just not a good hard___.

[Grey Kitty]

By "call it a day" and try again tomorrow, do you mean leave for the night?

Pretty much. At least if there is a likelihood that he would keep you up late fighting over it.

I am aware that it will be stronger than he's used to, and he'll probably react more strongly at least at first.

I like the bathroom idea, tho he'd probably follow me in at that point since he hates for me to walk away from him or tell him to go elsewhere.

I think that works best if you catch yourself starting to worry or freak out a little, before he really gets spooled up.

I'm pretty sure I saw that in this workshop There is lots more good stuff there:

How to take a time out

It's probably too much of pinching the sleeping bear if I say "this conversation isn't going anywhere, we're repeating the same things over, so I need to go for a walk or something."

The less reasons you give, the better. Also the less you say things like "you" or "we" the less invalidating it is.

If you say "I'm too worked up to talk to you right now" that is less invalidating, and harder for him to argue with. (It is hard to say with a straight face, 'No, you aren't that upset'

Mooshy. My boundaries are often still too mooshy. i'm just not a good hard___.

Mooshy boundaries get pushed against more and for longer because pushing against them works. (At least it works for him)

Good luck!

 GK

[DreamFlyer99]

Grey Kitty-- all good stuff!

I think Randi Kreger calls what happens like what you said will happen with my mooshy boundaries, "intermittent validation" or something similar, because I don't have a firm enough boundary he knows that if he pushes sometimes he will "win". Yup, that would be me.

Also, the thing about explaining, I've always felt the need to overexplain! But then I've mostly felt the need to explain why i'm even breathing since childhood. Somehow I've always felt the "need" to give a reason for taking up space on the planet. That's a really good one to work on for me! I hear myself saying "sorry" for the dumbest stuff! and then I tell myself to stop it, but boy it is deeply ingrained. "Sorry" I did something I might have wanted to do 15 minutes past when you wanted to start your show/you think there's a "touch too much salt" in the meal I spent an hour making because I thought it would be special... . GAH!

You're right, there have been times he's been quite happy to keep me from sleeping, and BOY does that mess with my fibro--I need to learn to be more aware of what his vibe is, but honestly I tend to get in my little happy space in my head and relax, leaving me unprepared. At least these days he doesn't bring things up that would likely start a fight like he did last year when he was pushing every button of mine he could find plus a few I didn't even know I had-- so life is more "peaceful" which is actually just the absence of strife, since we cannot talk "deep." I've always been a deep talker with friends, how did I miss it for all those years that I couldn't with him, that he would likely just rebuff me? and I would keep talking and pushing for him to hear me, silly me... .

Sorry (see, there I go!) that it seems like i'm just dumping. It's been so hard to deal with when I have few people I can share these things with!

Aarrgh-- i thought it would be less invalidating if I said "we" making something I want to talk about sound less threatening to him. But no? That's something I need to read about! I've said "can we talk about finding a way to communicate without making each other defensive?" but that still sets him off on his merry little Litany of how I wronged/hurt him.

[Grey Kitty]

  If you are dumping, this is a safe place to do it.   I don't really see it as dumping, but either way, this is a good safe place for it.

We've got something in the lessons (see link on the side -----> for anybody who missed it) about BPD Behaviors: Extinction Burst and Intermittent Reinforcement. It is worth reading for a refresher for you. What I've seen is that the most effective boundaries are ones where enforcement is completely black-and-white. If they are on the right side, let them do whatever they want. If they put a toe across, take action to protect yourself (not punish them)

The problem with saying "we" or "each other" is that it is vague. I'm really going to tear into it in detail here... . I hope it doesn't feel like I'm picking on you!

can we talk about finding a way to communicate without making each other defensive?

What are you really saying? "Can we talk about ... . " isn't quite what you mean. What you really mean when you say that part is one of:

"Will you talk with me about ... . "

"I want to talk with you about ... . "

One is a statement; one is a request. Either version is clearly stating your interest, rather than hiding it. Either one is clear about the transaction, unlike the original version.

That usage of "can we talk" or "we need to talk" is very common, and most people would understand how you mean it. I still like the clearer version better.

The next part is more vague and can really get you in trouble. I could reasonably interpret it as any of these:

"he is making you defensive"

"you are making him defensive"

or both versions at the same time

When you use vague language like that, his mind is free to jump to the most difficult/unpleasant interpretation, and probably will. Don't give him that much rope; he'll hang himself every time.

I'll also add that I don't believe one person can make another person feel anything.

I think that we often say something like "we need to stop doing x" instead of "I want you to stop doing x" as an attempt to soften the blow. My experience is that it doesn't help. I try to avoid using we like that.

I work very hard to use statements that start with "I" instead of "You" or "We" when I speak of my feelings. "I felt hurt when you did x" instead of "You made me feel hurt when you did x"

Do you think this will work better for you?

[DreamFlyer99]

 If you are dumping, this is a safe place to do it.   I don't really see it as dumping, but either way, this is a good safe place for it.

GREY KITTY, Thank you for the above! I've been so "trained" to not be a complainer, by everyone from childhood to now that I feel so guilty even when it's something i'm just trying to get help with! 

 

We've got something in the lessons (see link on the side -----> for anybody who missed it) about BPD Behaviors: Extinction Burst and Intermittent Reinforcement. It is worth reading for a refresher for you. What I've seen is that the most effective boundaries are ones where enforcement is completely black-and-white. If they are on the right side, let them do whatever they want. If they put a toe across, take action to protect yourself (not punish them)

I've read that a couple of times, but somehow in order to get it to overtake the old stuff in my brain I think i'm gonna need to keep reading it till it sinks in! And I am still missing the subtleties of what he does and says, so i'm thinking "oh that's not so bad" about something he's saying or doing until later when I go "What? Wait a minute! What was that he said?" But I THINK that is likely an issue of practice? Both in my personal awareness and in having the words deeply imbedded in my brain. I think I need to make the point of " the most effective boundaries are ones where enforcement is completely black-and-white" a personal mantra.

(I feel so guilty because as much as I love him and have so much history with him, I just feel like this is all too much work and why am I still here when I can never relax if he's around?)

The problem with saying "we" or "each other" is that it is vague. I'm really going to tear into it in detail here... . I hope it doesn't feel like I'm picking on you!

can we talk about finding a way to communicate without making each other defensive?

What are you really saying? "Can we talk about ... . " isn't quite what you mean. What you really mean when you say that part is one of:

"Will you talk with me about ... . "

"I want to talk with you about ... . "

One is a statement; one is a request. Either version is clearly stating your interest, rather than hiding it. Either one is clear about the transaction, unlike the original version.

That usage of "can we talk" or "we need to talk" is very common, and most people would understand how you mean it. I still like the clearer version better.

The next part is more vague and can really get you in trouble. I could reasonably interpret it as any of these:

"he is making you defensive"

"you are making him defensive"

or both versions at the same time

When you use vague language like that, his mind is free to jump to the most difficult/unpleasant interpretation, and probably will. Don't give him that much rope; he'll hang himself every time.

I'll also add that I don't believe one person can make another person feel anything.

I think that we often say something like "we need to stop doing x" instead of "I want you to stop doing x" as an attempt to soften the blow. My experience is that it doesn't help. I try to avoid using we like that.

I work very hard to use statements that start with "I" instead of "You" or "We" when I speak of my feelings. "I felt hurt when you did x" instead of "You made me feel hurt when you did x"

Do you think this will work better for you?

THIS is eXACTly what I need! I feel appreciative rather than picked on since I am more "feeling" oriented and less the concrete sort, so concrete wording is VERY helpful for me! (did I use enough ! to get across the depth of my appreciation? ) At least I can finally accept this about myself, but being more senses/feelings often leaves me wanting in the logic department.

So: State my interest concretely by letting him know what I want to achieve

    (that I want to talk about hit__)

     My question here is, if I say "I want to talk to you about__" and what I want to say is "I felt hurt when you talked to me with your jaw clenched and your eyes narrowed because it feels unfriendly to me" (or should i not explain why?) or some such thing, i'm still gonna piss him off. To him it's still an attack. How do I say "when you do this it feels like this to me" if he can't MAKE me feel any certain way, but I honestly believe in that body language stuff speaking loudly! Clenched teeth and narrowed eyes and a snarky comment mean something.

I THINK i am understanding the direct/clear approach with stating my goal clearly using I not YOU statements, and being black and white about my goal. i still don't quite understand how to express myself about telling him "i felt hurt when" without bringing on WW3.

My goal at the moment with the above sort of thing he does is to stop him from treating me with disrespect. I've started seeing some of that spill over onto my son (the disrespecting me) but i can just straight out tell him it feels like he's doing that, it's much easier than with his dad.

Somehow i need to understand how to establish boundaries AT THE MOMENT and not after the fact--i think that could be part of the problem. i have waited till he's done with his tantrum and then tried to talk to him about how he speaks to me disrespectfully, and maybe that's a lot of the problem. Maybe it simply needs to be done in the moment--but then i hear about how i "correct" him in front of our son or some other bullsh** excuse to shut me down.

Thoughts? and thanks!

OH--this is a great statement to put into a personal mantra also:

If they put a toe across, take action to protect yourself (not punish them)

The boundary is about ME taking care of ME. i guess i still think i can "teach him how to treat me" but all i have control over is setting boundaries around my own self-care.

Still learning learning learning... .

[DreamFlyer99]

Hi - my uBPDh regularly gives me the silent treatment for days at a time after he 'dysregulates' (love finding that word!  finally have a name for it!).  He will also be verbally insulting - all my fault, I can't communicate, etc.

So... . how can I set firm boundaries to try to get some level of basic respect?

Thanks

NOMADGIRL: How is your pursuit of better boundaries coming? i'm curious for an update! 

[Grey Kitty]

DreamFlyer99, I'm glad you are getting the answers you need. I'll keep on being detailed and looking at it as your boundary harda$$ guardian angel 

So: State my interest concretely by letting him know what I want to achieve

    (that I want to talk about hit__)

     My question here is, if I say "I want to talk to you about__" and what I want to say is "I felt hurt when you talked to me with your jaw clenched and your eyes narrowed because it feels unfriendly to me" (or should i not explain why?) or some such thing, i'm still gonna piss him off. To him it's still an attack. How do I say "when you do this it feels like this to me" if he can't MAKE me feel any certain way, but I honestly believe in that body language stuff speaking loudly! Clenched teeth and narrowed eyes and a snarky comment mean something.

No, he can't make you feel a certain way. But he can non-verbally communicate emotional abuse, and that what his body language does.

I THINK i am understanding the direct/clear approach with stating my goal clearly using I not YOU statements, and being black and white about my goal. i still don't quite understand how to express myself about telling him "i felt hurt when" without bringing on WW3.

You want him to have empathy for you, understand your situation, and validate you.

You simply can't make him do that. Demanding that he do it will be invalidating to him (and make things worse!). Simply asking him is still likely to be invalidating unless you are incredibly skillful and careful.

He will only do this if he chooses to. Actually many pwBPD do not have enough empathy to be capable of this.  If at the time he is an upset/enraged/dysregulated pwBPD, I absolutely guarantee this is beyond him. Asking him to do something he simply cannot do will only frustrate both of you

We'll validate for you how much that !#@$!@# sucks here. (Remember what I said about dumping! ) That wasn't the format of abuse that I got, but I'm sure you have a twin or two here that experienced exactly that!

My goal at the moment with the above sort of thing he does is to stop him from treating me with disrespect. I've started seeing some of that spill over onto my son (the disrespecting me) but i can just straight out tell him it feels like he's doing that, it's much easier than with his dad.

So here's the solution: Back to the simple black-and-white boundary.

If he is abusive to you verbally or non-verbally, remove yourself from the source of the abuse. (If you need to protect your children, remove them as well.)

Do NOT waste any time telling him how or why his behavior (verbal or non-verbal) was abusive/unacceptable/etc. This is invalidating (remember, that makes things worse). It also isn't telling him anything he doesn't know, although he most likely won't admit it. It also gives him something else to argue with you over.

If you want/need him to take an action on your behalf, boundaries aren't the tool for that job. But if you wish to stop an action directed at you, boundaries are fantastic!

[DreamFlyer99]

DreamFlyer99, I'm glad you are getting the answers you need. I'll keep on being detailed and looking at it as your boundary harda$$ guardian angel 

So: State my interest concretely by letting him know what I want to achieve

    (that I want to talk about hit__)

     My question here is, if I say "I want to talk to you about__" and what I want to say is "I felt hurt when you talked to me with your jaw clenched and your eyes narrowed because it feels unfriendly to me" (or should i not explain why?) or some such thing, i'm still gonna piss him off. To him it's still an attack. How do I say "when you do this it feels like this to me" if he can't MAKE me feel any certain way, but I honestly believe in that body language stuff speaking loudly! Clenched teeth and narrowed eyes and a snarky comment mean something.

No, he can't make you feel a certain way. But he can non-verbally communicate emotional abuse, and that what his body language does.

You want him to have empathy for you, understand your situation, and validate you.

You simply can't make him do that. Demanding that he do it will be invalidating to him (and make things worse!). Simply asking him is still likely to be invalidating unless you are incredibly skillful and careful.

He will only do this if he chooses to. Actually many pwBPD do not have enough empathy to be capable of this.  If at the time he is an upset/enraged/dysregulated pwBPD, I absolutely guarantee this is beyond him. Asking him to do something he simply cannot do will only frustrate both of you

We'll validate for you how much that !#@$!@# sucks here. (Remember what I said about dumping! ) That wasn't the format of abuse that I got, but I'm sure you have a twin or two here that experienced exactly that!

So here's the solution: Back to the simple black-and-white boundary.

If he is abusive to you verbally or non-verbally, remove yourself from the source of the abuse. (If you need to protect your children, remove them as well.)

Do NOT waste any time telling him how or why his behavior (verbal or non-verbal) was abusive/unacceptable/etc. This is invalidating (remember, that makes things worse). It also isn't telling him anything he doesn't know, although he most likely won't admit it. It also gives him something else to argue with you over.

If you want/need him to take an action on your behalf, boundaries aren't the tool for that job. But if you wish to stop an action directed at you, boundaries are fantastic!

Hallelujah, Grey Kitty, I've seen the light!

Again, boundaries are to protect ME and my psyche and body, so my goal is to keep MYSELF safe from the things that cause me hurt. And exactly what you said, he DOES know right from wrong, he's simply choosing "wrong" at the moment he's verbally abusing me. IT'S SINKING IN!

How could I respond if when I try to leave he gives me the usual "so YOU can talk but I don't get to say anything?" My issue is to protect myself from his verbal abuse and disrespect, so is it appropriate to just say "I'm feeling disrespected right now, and I'll be glad to talk with you later about it and hear what you have to say." Do I just leave out the words I so badly want to say, "if it's a respectful conversation"?

Thanks for being my badbooty backup! Lol

[Grey Kitty]

The less you say about him the better. And leave while you can still resist the bait of his parting shot.

I've gone nearly running out the door saying "If I stay around any longer I'll say something that I regret." and tried (dunno how successfully) not to slam it.

If I'm in that state, it is absolutely time to leave. Chances are it was time a while ago and I didn't notice it 'till then. Better late than never

A simple "I can't handle talking with you right now." is sufficient. It is also true--you can't deal with the invalidating/abusive behavior from him.

Another good thing to add if you feel up to it is "I'll be back in (time period)" If you do say that, say something like 20 minutes or two hours and stick with it don't say "soon" or "later" because he may interpret that differently than you do. This is helpful because a pwBPD has a fear of abandonment, and knowing when you will come back tames that fear. Especially if you prove that you are trustworthy in this respect by coming back when you say you will.

No don't say "if it's a respectful conversation." It is provocative instead of helpful. *I* expect you to enforce the same boundary upon your return, and leave again (perhaps for longer this time) if the abusive behavior resumes.

When you enforce boundaries consistently, he'll figure it out. No need to warn him about it ahead of time.

Again, boundaries are to protect ME and my psyche and body, so my goal is to keep MYSELF safe from the things that cause me hurt. And exactly what you said, he DOES know right from wrong, he's simply choosing "wrong" at the moment he's verbally abusing me. IT'S SINKING IN

 Bingo!

I'd like to add that part of why he made that choice is that you let him get away with it.

[DreamFlyer99]

The less you say about him the better. And leave while you can still resist the bait of his parting shot.

I've gone nearly running out the door saying "If I stay around any longer I'll say something that I regret." and tried (dunno how successfully) not to slam it.

If I'm in that state, it is absolutely time to leave. Chances are it was time a while ago and I didn't notice it 'till then. Better late than never

A simple "I can't handle talking with you right now." is sufficient. It is also true--you can't deal with the invalidating/abusive behavior from him.

Another good thing to add if you feel up to it is "I'll be back in (time period)" If you do say that, say something like 20 minutes or two hours and stick with it don't say "soon" or "later" because he may interpret that differently than you do. This is helpful because a pwBPD has a fear of abandonment, and knowing when you will come back tames that fear. Especially if you prove that you are trustworthy in this respect by coming back when you say you will.

No don't say "if it's a respectful conversation." It is provocative instead of helpful. *I* expect you to enforce the same boundary upon your return, and leave again (perhaps for longer this time) if the abusive behavior resumes.

When you enforce boundaries consistently, he'll figure it out. No need to warn him about it ahead of time.

Again, boundaries are to protect ME and my psyche and body, so my goal is to keep MYSELF safe from the things that cause me hurt. And exactly what you said, he DOES know right from wrong, he's simply choosing "wrong" at the moment he's verbally abusing me. IT'S SINKING IN

 Bingo!

I'd like to add that part of why he made that choice is that you let him get away with it.

AHAH and Ahah!

Thank you so much for your input, Grey Kitty!