Jeckyl and Hyde

[yeeter]

Starting a post here, as a placeholder so I will come back and finish it.  Much to write, but right now I'm sitting in th hospital with a tube sticking out my chest after a week in the ICU.  Bunch of heart issues.  The good news is nothing that cannot be resolved over time.  And given I was pulled back from going permanently under, a wakeup call that although I have managed to suck it up and stay in the relationship, that I'm overstressed, overworked, and need to reassess the balance.

Will add some more but will start by trying to paste a bit I put down on a plane recently.  Although I haven't been posting much, this board is still a support pillar, even if just writing out stuff with the intent of someday posting.  It's been... . 18months now for me here?  Seems much longer.

Ok, more later but here is a start ( the counter to this was a post about how significantly things have changed for the better, and am getting close to feeling like a 'success story'.  Hence the Jeckyl and Hyde title, I still flip flop on how I feel!)

--        --       --       --        --

A while back I had lunch with a good friend, that knows me well.  The topic of relationships came up.  And long term choices like marriage.

I stated that I no longer completely believed in the institute of marriage.  That I really can't recommend it to my son, the risks are too high that it will end poorly.

She commented that she had already noticed this about me and how I felt was obvious, from other comments and reactions to various things.

I was disappointed in this.  And shared that it made me sad, because I was normally a very positive person and just couldn't imagine going through life without someone to share it with.

So I have been trying to observe my own focus and behavior.  Indeed it's pretty negative.  Especially about relationships but also about the woman's movement (as a successful white male I feel I am a target, to be 'brought down', and indeed I have been).  I think part of it has to do with a sense of unfairness that the courts apply, and the distortion that women have the advantage of - both in domestic court but now also in the workplace, surprisingly.  And I know this fear of what it would be like as a divorce settlement played heavily in my decision to stay

when I hear I am becoming this bitter old man (maybe a bit of a distorted statement), it bothers me.  I also shared with my friend that I never wanted to be this person, so am disappointed in myself

So I have been trying to spend some amount of time on self reflection.  I think it has to be at least inn part a signal that I haven't really 'radically accepted' the situation.  And I need to work on that more.  It seemed that posting here on personal inventory was appropriate, although I by no means have much figured out.  Nor do I really know what's bugging me exactly but I'm definitely not 'centered' in the way I would like, or am used to.

The relationship did destroy me.  Maybe it's just a transition as I crawl out from under the protective rock and look forward at life and ask... . 'now what.'

I'm certainly not in the place I imagined, or ever wanted to be.  I have a spouse that in some ways I am still afraid of.  And in other ways I just avoid her, because it's not all that pleasant of an experience to be around her.  But I have beautiful kids who I adore, and a nice lifestyle and success in other ways (although between work and kid/home activity, the workload is very very high with not much left for just taking a pause and relaxing).  I scheduled it out last Fall... . And if I allow 8 hours for sleep, then layer on work/commute and kid/home duties, I have one hour per day left over.  If I want a shower it comes out of that hour, as does all other life activities (paying bills, maintenance,etc).  I know I'm pretty tired and worn out, and the last real vacation was two years ago.

My wife takes vacations with the kids without me.  And has her social circle and other activities so this is fine.  Try as we might, we still haven't found much we enjoy doing together.  Last year I requested that we try a family vacation where I am a part of it (not just her and her parents and the kids, which she does twice per year), and later this Fall we will go to Disney as a family so I am looking forward to that.

I buy her flowers and am polite and say thank you and please and reinforce her hobbies and accomplishments.  It took some effort, but we have even gotten a sitter and went out on a couple dates.  Although I have a makeshift bed in a spare room, I do conjugal visits to her bedroom, so it's nice to have some form of sexual interaction again with another human.  

But there isn't much of a real connection to any of it.  There are people from past work colleagues I feel closer to.  A big part of it has to do with her high N traits.  Every single conversation or experience is in some way channeled through her sense of self.  (and as one MC put it, the 'superiority attitude' is very tiring to be around.

Also lately I have been starting to think about retirement.  I'm blessed in that I will be able to.  I think.  Although my wife has separate money that she has made it clear is hers and not mine for future consideration.  So if we split all 'our' money, it might not be enough for me to retire on.  Although she would be set.  We have never really had a conversation about it... . It's definitely a triggering topic for her so I have left it alone.  

And as to the lifestyle in retirement, I don't really think of it including her.  The thought of spending MORE time together isn't appealing.  Terrible.

Clearly I'm tired and not taking my own advice to be sure and take care of myself.  It's seriously tough to find the time for it.  To do so would make me a neglectful and selfish father, but there is always something more that could be done for the kids.

I don't really have any objectives for this post.  Was just wanting to write some things down.  A form of admission and acknowledgment maybe, and get it out hoping it would help let it go and I could do better with the acceptance part.

I remember a post here once that asked a question, what is the difference between radical acceptance and just giving up?  I wonder if I blurred the line here.  But it does seem like to improve the relation involves inordinate amount of energy and the willingness to 'fight'.  I'm not up for more fighting... .

[123Phoebe]

Much to write, but right now I'm sitting in th hospital with a tube sticking out my chest after a week in the ICU.  Bunch of heart issues.  The good news is nothing that cannot be resolved over time. 

Aw, yeeter  

Thinking about you and sending lots of support and good vibes... .

You've got this. 

[Want2know]

Big hugs to you Yeeter!   

This is the place to be if you are looking to dig in.  It's ok if you're not sure where you want to go yet.  Just getting some thoughts down is a good start.  You have a lot to work through, and we are all here to help.

Baby steps... .

[Validation78]

Hey Yeeter!

We haven't been running in the same circles lately, however, you've never left my thoughts and prayers. It sounds like there is a lot going on in your world, and as usual, you are thinking of all the angles! As we all have had to face, there are huge, life decisions to be made. Change our perspectives, change our MO, change our entire situation, 'cause we know, if we don't make the changes, nobody else will! What the changes will be is up to each of us, and no matter what we each decide, there is support here, to cheer us on! I've seen many changes in you since you got here, and I feel confident that you know how to take care of yourself and your needs, even if you do run a bit off course now and then.

Now my friend, take your own advice, take care of yourself, and get the heck out of the hospital!

Best Wishes,

Val78

[Grey Kitty]

  I'm glad you are getting some rest and time for reflection.

I sure wish it didn't have to involve an ICU and hospital plumbing, though.

Healing wishes,

GK

[arabella]

Wishing you a speedy recovery, Yeeter!

Hospitals are no fun, but I will admit that a trip to the ICU can force a person to do some long overdue evaluation of life's circumstances. So I suppose it has that going for it.

Hope you come back to continue your reflection here. And let us know how you are doing! I don't know if you were looking for input, it sounds as though output is more what you need right now, but do let us know if you would like commentary. (Hey, ask and ye shall receive - you know I love to 'talk'! )

[yeeter]

Thanks all.   

A good day and everything going the right direction, so we will let the process kick me out of here when the time comes (possibly tomorrow)

Not a particulary structured Post, just putting down some thoughts.  But of course any and all commentary welcome.  Most things have been covered ad nauseum either on previous posts or in T (or MC even).  I think the gap comes between analysis, and actual real world changes.  Saying no more often and being ok with myself in doing so.  Ignoring whatever representations my wife may make and having confidence in my own actions  that people will form their own opinions of me

Maybe I put too much emphasis in being seen as a good father, rather than just being one and knowing that.  (it does bug me how my wife portrays me to others though).

At the same time I have made some time for myself for a few items.  Ya it comes at expense of other things but that's what prioritization means. 

Much more to write, thanks for all the well wishes.

 

[patientandclear]

Yeeter, I respect what you're doing here a great deal.  This careful examination requires a lot of courage.  It's inspiring me to push myself further & be more clear-eyed about reality, to let go of vestiges of a story I was telling myself about my BPD r/s that was a bit, or a lot, at odds with reality.  For me, it is/was about specialness, destiny, fate -- buttons my pwBPD pushed with astonishing skill. I need to disable those buttons. That's my own hard digging right now. I am so impressed with yours--it's going to push me onward. Good luck with your project & let us know what you figure out 

[Grey Kitty]

Yeeter, you do have a lot to think about... . and I believe that you will sort out the background and see what pieces need more examination, and how we can help soon enough. For now, one thought popped up for me:

I'm wondering about the amount of time and energy you put into work right now. It sounds like you are successful, dedicated, and wanting to keep on going until you are ready to retire. Can you manage to pull anything back from that? No vacation for two years sounds like something you could fix. Maybe take some vacation time with your family/children AND some vacation time just for yourself, a personal retreat of some sort or other.

[Cumulus]

Hi yeeter. Living for the day seems to make much more sense when you are confronted with your own mortality. My coworkers and I have an understanding that all days are good days that aren't diagnosis days. But when d-day comes there is often a clarity that comes along with it, an ability to see what is important and what isn't. And to see how much of our time we are giving to those things that we deem of little or no importance. I hope you find what brings you the most meaning in your life, it sounds like you are getting very close. So many of us never get there. Best wishes for a healthy new start to life. Cumulus.

[yeeter]

It's tricky (for me at least). I can visualize what a healthy balanced life might look like. I can even pull from experience during times when I was 'on top of the world'.

But what I can't seem to do, is pull the trigger on significant changes that I know would be healthy for me, but might be seen as dropping responsibilities in other ways.

Re-examining the work is a low hanging fruit.  It may or may not work smoothly, so the question will be what price a change comes with.  Increasing exercise will absolutely help, with it comes expanded capacity to handle stress.

Those two are the low hanging fruit.  My wife is pretty freaked out about it all so this will trigger some conversations on doing things differently.  Will try to makethe most of the opportunity, although I know there are limits to what's possible.

More details to come... . I'm still not out of here although I hear some yapping that tomorrow is a possibility.

[Blazing Star]

Hi Yeeter!

So sorry to hear that you have been in ICU, that your heart has sent out a flare "hello... . anyone there... . I am struggling a little here... . ". It sounds like the call has been answered and the next few weeks will be challenging on many levels perhaps. I imagine this has given you a little perspective on things, and you are looking at everything a bit differently. And as you say, there is opportunity to change a few things - within limits of what is possible.

It sounds like you are struggling with putting your own needs first, with the fear of what others will think. We are here if you want to explore this further. When I have had similar struggles for me it is about self worth and value - can be a tough nut to crack.

Healing vibes coming your way.

Love Blazing Star

[yeeter]

Thanks for all the fuzzy vibes.

A piece of it is about confidence in myself.  Maybe underneath self worth and value... . But not sure that's exactly what's at the root.  It might be more to do with trusting in my own judgement, when exact facts can't be validated, vs deferring to other influences.  It's tied up with risk taking also.  With better confidence in yourself, a particular risk might seem lower.  (of course the balance is with reality and not becoming over confident, or arrogant even)

Things are pretty stable here so will be out of here soon.

[briefcase]

Wishing you well my friend - physically, emotionally and spiritually.  It's hard work sometimes wading through these kinds of blurry feelings, fuzzy mental images, and uncertain thoughts about the future.  But I think I get what you are doing here, at least as well as it can be "got." 

All that hard work on yourself, as worth it as it was, also serves to illuminate the stubborn limits that remain, where things still fall a little short.  Both the value and the limitations of the tools start to feel established. It feels natural to take a look and ask if its enough. 

I'm wishing you health and clarity.     

[arabella]

But what I can't seem to do, is pull the trigger on significant changes that I know would be healthy for me, but might be seen as dropping responsibilities in other ways.

Re-examining the work is a low hanging fruit.  It may or may not work smoothly, so the question will be what price a change comes with.  Increasing exercise will absolutely help, with it comes expanded capacity to handle stress.

Those two are the low hanging fruit. 

So what does the fruit higher up look like? What types of things have you considered in terms of "significant changes"?

Hope by the time you read this you are happily resting back home.

[GreenMango]

Wishing you well and solid recovery.

Glimpsing mortality can give great perspective.  Sounds like you are giving it the kind of thought it deserves.  One life - that's all any of us get.  Make it count in the way you think matters.

Someone read this poem at funeral I went to.  It made me think there's moments in life where you get a glimpse or opportunity.  Sometimes those moments are so brief we can miss it.

The Dash by Linda Ellis copyright 1996

I read of a man who stood to speak at the funeral of a friend. He referred to the dates on her tombstone, from the beginning…to the end. He noted that first came the date of her birth and spoke of the following date with tears, but he said what mattered most of all was the dash between those years. For that dash represents all the time that she spent alive on earth. And now only those who loved her know what that little line is worth. For it matters not, how much we own, the cars…the house…the cash. What matters is how we live and love and how we spend our dash. So, think about this long and hard. Are there things you’d like to change? For you never know how much time is left that can still be rearranged. If we could just slow down enough to consider what’s true and real and always try to understand the way other people feel. And be less quick to anger and show appreciation more and love the people in our lives like we’ve never loved before. If we treat each other with respect and more often wear a smile, remembering that this special dash might only last a little while. So, when your eulogy is being read, with your life’s actions to rehash… would you be proud of the things they say about how you spent YOUR dash?

[waverider]

Hey Yeets how are you holding up?

A hospital bed is probably not the best place for feeling positive. A reflective turning point maybe.

When I first came here I was doing a lot of self pitying navel gazing and self doubt. Between yourself and UFN asking me the obvious hard questions you spun me around and made me realize what is important, that was my turning point. Without that I doubt I could handle the mess I'm going through at the moment.

Retirement is also another turning point in life as you start to re evaluate what is really important.

So there you go you have two important  life focusing moments on your mind at the moment, so you can't expect to feel all gung ho. Its another time to pause and contemplate, which is not the same as being lost and adrift.

You have the knowledge and the tools to put all these thoughts in order, it wont happen overnight, but it will happen, trust in yourself. Sometimes knowledge makes you afraid of the dark shadows that you didn't even know existed before.

As we get older I am firm believer in making sure we have more "unbooked" time to ourselves so that we dont become fatigued and tarnished by feeling like our lives are railroaded and beyond our control.

There is nothing more empowering that having a bucket load of "you" time for "your stuff", just work on that, and all will be well

Wishing you all the best

Wave

[yeeter]

Again, thanks for all the well wishes.  Im out of the hospital and home and two days ago weaned down to a single medication, so feeling much much better although rest is still needed.

And getting lots of practice in saying 'no'.  The wife unit is back into the swing as if nothing ever happened, and the schedule was piling deep again - but I made it pretty clear that I was budgeting blocks of time to do 'nothing'.  That being 'productive' every second of every day is not my goal.  So will adapt to this and see how long I can sustain it (and for my own self also there is a tendency to fill the time with 'lots of good stuff', where simply 'doing nothing' is a very low priority).

Still more practice needed on saying no in a way that isnt as upsetting to her.  'No', or 'I dont want to do that', is a little too blunt (and triggering) so Im getting better at prefacing it with 'that sounds like a great idea and would be a lot of fun, but right now I dont have the energy for it - as great as it would be - I need to have time allotted for rest and recovery'.  Kinda a short term excuse so need to keep with it in the long term.

I also informed her that I would be leaving my job at some point in the future.  Even if it meant I had to quit without having another one.  I got back... . crickets.  (which works for me).  Whether I can bring myself to pull the trigger is another discussion all together.

Anyway, thats all tactical stuff.  Where do I want to be with my life in 5 years (15 years), and what is it about myself that is holding me back from it?  The biggest hurdle is still schedule and time available.  I was getting the work/commute done.  And getting all the household chores/maintenance done.  And getting decent interaction and time spent with the kids.  But time with the kids came at the expense of any personal adult interaction time and ability to form some outside friendships and activities.

I think thats still the biggest area for me to work on.  Im still isolated and alone from a social/emotional staNPDoint.  Its not possible to get this type of support from my wife, and I havent been able to carve time to do it.  Was thinking back on how most of my close friendships formed in my past, and they almost all have come via the work environment - but the relationship pulled me away from these both geographically and time wise.  My current work environment doesnt allow it - so maybe this should be a high criteria when looking for the next work activity, the opportunity for building some friendships.

And maybe learn new ways of developing friendships that doesnt require as much time/interaction.

(Im kinda categorizing three areas:  Work environment - stressful.  Home environment - stressful.  Emotional/relational environment - stressful).  Even changing one would make a huge impact.

On the home environment I have been looking at areas I can clean up some space (my wife is a borderline hoarder) and segregate it from other parts of the house.  At the same time, she is talking about bringing another Uhaul worth of 'stuff' from her parents when she visits at Xmas.  There is nowhere in the house for any more... . so maybe an outbuilding to be built to put some stuff in.  There really isnt any way to control her impulses on this - its ingrained in her.  Im just trying to have some space for myself and my children to function.

Am making progress on getting a longer term retirement type plan in place.  But at the same time, am going forward with the assumption I will stay married in retirement but wont be interested in doing that much with my wife, so a lot of separate planning to face.  It will be interested to hear if she has any mental models of what retirement might look like - and to what degree it includes a spouse.

So net net.  Im recovering well and will be back to the full routine soon, with the intent of shaking up the routine.  It wont come quickly, or easily - and my approach over the last year and a half just left me spent - so this iteration I need a more sustainable (and more easily doable) approach.  Just dont know what that is... .

[waverider]

As you are thinking longer term, another thing to add to that is your kids. Not sure how old they are but, as they grow up and start to leave the dynamics will change. reliance on you will change, then suddenly there is a huge hole.

I know I totally underestimated the effect my eldest daughter leaving home would have. Both easing the pressure while at the same time leaving a void in my life

[Want2know]

Good point by Wave... . I'm going to add to the job aspect. 

I worked for a major company for 16 years, making good money, retirement plan, etc.  Left that when my marriage was crashing and my mom was dying of cancer.  Thankfully, I could take some time off from working.  When I finally decided to go back to work, I made a conscious decision to find a job that was not as taxing.  Granted, it didn't pay as well, but I was able to adjust my living expenses to a point that was ok for me.  It changed much for me regarding stress and working.  It opened up my ability to build relationships with co-workers, as I wasn't always focused on a variety of complex tasks/deadlines.  I did this again just recently, when I moved to where I am today.  Took some time off to reassess everything, as I knew a change was needed, and took a job, not too stressful with the opportunity to focus on the relationship side of being with people.

I know you have added complexities to your situation (ie. kids, wife), but it is do-able.  There are trade offs you have to make, but I can tell you for me, changing my job, at a stage in life where many people are fearful of doing it, saved me in many ways.

[yeeter]

Great insights as always.  Changing the job front has the potential to do a couple things.  First reduce the pressure and stress of the current environment (my boss has his own personality issues - when I was hired the longest any of the three predecessors had made it in my position was 6 months, its been 3.5 years for me - which isnt necessarily a good thing and healthier person might have not put up with it so long... . some parallels to what keeps us in relationships that I have been working on, and the tools here have been hugely helpful on the job front as well).  But I digress... .   If I can find the right thing, as W2K suggests it may serve a dual purpose to reduce some of the pressure, and at the same time enable some more emotionally fulfilling relationship building.  Just these two items in themselves would feel like a huge improvement. 

As for kids - ya - mine are now 9, 7, and 5.  So many years to go.  Our current lives and interactions completely revolve around the kids.  Once they are off doing their own thing (or - gads - leave home completely), its going to be a very different dynamic because there really isnt anything my wife and I do together that isnt kid focused.  It would be nice... . but to date, we just havent found anything we enjoy doing together (in the spirit of being genuine and honest - the reality is that I just dont enjoy being around my wife.  I can do it - in the same way as I might being paired with someone I didnt like on a work project - but in terms of 'wanting' to do things with her - I just dont.  Just the opposite in fact, I would prefer doing something with a neighbor or complete stranger even - because its just too much work when interacting with her.

[Blazing Star]

Great to hear you are at home and working on the N word. Such a tiny, but empowering word! I hope you continue to find ways to say it that work for both you and your wife.

The pondering on the work/home/friend situations sounds good, I am excited to see how this develops!

Perhaps you may not be able to answer this, in the past it has sounded like you are staying for the kids. Do you think that once they are grown and moved out, if you and your wife haven't found ways to be together that will be the end of the relationship?

I ask because I really relate to staying for the kids too, on bad days I wonder about the future, about what I deserve and how I will ensure that I get that. I am also aware that this is forcing me to work on much of my own stuff, and I am embracing this gift as much as I can (which admittedly on some days isn't much!)

If you found yourself with a less taxing job or early retirement, are there some hobbies that you could get back into to build up your social support network again?

Love Blazing Star

[Surnia]

Hi yeeter,

I am bit late here... . so sorry to hear about your health problems! I hope you can recover really well!

I can so relate about your struggles with the N part in your rs - yes this can be so demanding!

About RA and giving up: Its perhaps a matter of point of view. When you are looking from outside - "I should be a good father" "I should make the rs work" or similar things, it looks like giving up. Starting with yourself, having heart problems, not feeling relaxed with your wife, accepting her N part ... . it feels perhaps more like radical acceptance.

A bit of a provocing question: Do you want retirement from work or is it more about retirement from the caretaker role?

Take care 

[Cumulus]

Good to hear you are home and feeling better. You have done an amazing job of identifying and understanding what changes you feel you need to make. I think that is huge. So many of us get swallowed up in the day to day routine that we don't stop and address those changes that need to be made. Have you heard the saying about the flower? It goes something like this, the bud stays as a bud, protected until it become more painful to stay in the confinement of the bud than it dies to flower out. Good luck on blooming.

[yeeter]

Some thoughts:

I don't think I will ever fully retire.  It will just be a shift in what/how I do things.  Likely in business for myself in some way vs working for others.  I still enjoy the type of work I do so do get satisfaction out of that part.  Just that the current owner/partner I work for, is very taxing so just need to switch that part up and find a group I enjoy being around more.  And also I do have hobbies to enjoy, although they haven't involved many others... . But could if the logistics could work.

As for what I 'deserve'... . I'm kinda adverse to the word itself.  Because it implies self judgment which I don't think is the healthiest perspective.  Instead, I like to think of it that I have the right to pursue my own happiness and well being.  And taken a step further, and obligation (to myself) to do so.  So I'm responsible for my own happiness and well being, and have the right (without guilt) to pursue it.

I as trying not to think about the relationship in terms of staying a set amount of time.  Since it's another 14 years or so before my youngest would graduate HS.  More than long enough time that to be living while 'waiting' for an event... . Not so healthy.  Instead I was trying to get my life in a satisfying place in the here and now.  I can't predict 14 years out.  For sure much will change.

But.  When I start imaging a retirement plan it's hard not to consider the relationship desired.  So have to reconcile that.

The trick is the tactical 'doing' to putting it all in place.  A piece at a time is how these things usually make progress.

Thanks again for all the love.   

[Grey Kitty]

Glad to hear you are on the mend physically! 

Yeeter, you sound clear about the work side of things, and like you will be moving forward in the right way when you are ready. You have previously stated that you choose to stay in your marriage for the wellbeing of and access to your children... . your compromises around that seem to be meriting some reconsideration.

As for kids - ya - mine are now 9, 7, and 5.  So many years to go.  Our current lives and interactions completely revolve around the kids.  Once they are off doing their own thing (or - gads - leave home completely),

I've got a nephew who is turning 13 in a couple weeks, and I gotta say that he and his 10yo brother focus a lot less of their time on adults than they did not many years before. So the shift away is going to start much sooner than the 14 years you mentioned earlier.

It would be nice... . but to date, we just havent found anything we enjoy doing together (in the spirit of being genuine and honest - the reality is that I just dont enjoy being around my wife.  I can do it - in the same way as I might being paired with someone I didnt like on a work project - but in terms of 'wanting' to do things with her - I just dont.  Just the opposite in fact, I would prefer doing something with a neighbor or complete stranger even - because its just too much work when interacting with her.

You speak clearly of not enjoying your wife's company. Do you think she enjoys your company more than you like hers?

The reason I'm asking is that I see an unspoken assumption that your wife wants to continue the life the two of you are sharing without any personal interest in changing anything... . and I'm skeptical that there is no reflection of your disinterest and dissatisfaction on her side.

[yeeter]

You speak clearly of not enjoying your wife's company. Do you think she enjoys your company more than you like hers?

The reason I'm asking is that I see an unspoken assumption that your wife wants to continue the life the two of you are sharing without any personal interest in changing anything... . and I'm skeptical that there is no reflection of your disinterest and dissatisfaction on her side.

This is a really great question GK, and one I just dont understand myself.  I did initiate a divorce filing, and went through all the steps right up until a court date.  Some emotional outbursts reset me, and my thinking, so I decided to try and stay in it and make it work.  My wife fought it at every turn and states clearly she wants to stay in this relationship.  But I cant at all understand why.  The feedback that I get from her revolves around all my faults.  Every little thing that is wrong.  Yet at the same time she wants to stay in it.  And she knows I am not happy.  My philosophy is more like 'I would never want to be in a relationship with someone that doesnt want to be in it with me'.  This is not her philosophy.

And to be clear - yes, I am afraid of her in what she would be like in a 'coparenting' relationship.  She made it very clear that she would fight and be difficult in every single little thing.  That I would no longer be considered part of the family, because 'I choose to no longer be part of this family'.  The courts enable this behavior (and she stated that she would file to move several states away and move back in with her parents - elderly and failing - and her mother is a big part of my wifes personality state and I feel this would be disastrous in terms of my childrens long term emotional health).  In some ways I feel its a choice between whats good for myself, vs whats good for my children (being raised by her in a state of stress will not be a bargain for them). 

Also, I will categorize her as a pretty strong 'feminist' - and she sends this message out that she really doesnt like men (men are inherently evil/bad).  This in and of itself has affected me, and last night I was realizing that some of my behavior are efforts at proving this wrong.  But to someone that will never be convinced of anything (high 'N' traits).  So a classic trap.  Ive gotten better at my behavior, but still spend energy on positioning a more balance perspective (besides, what do I tell my son about men? - not that they are inherently evil!).

So I tried to understand just whats in it for her.  In many ways, I am an 'accessory' to her life.  The perfect husband model.  Doting father, involved with kids, and provider of a very nice lifestyle (she doesnt have to work).  I joked with one of the T's that I felt like a 'trophy husband'.  Not that she is in love with me as a person (although she will say this), but that she is in love with the different pieces of her life.  Again, its all about her and her life and whether it fits her ideal mental model (ironically deep emotional bonding with a partner is not part of this mental model).  There are some deep religious values ingrained as well, and the entire concept that divorce would mean failure in her mind, and would make her 'just like everybody else'  (she has a strong adversive reaction to anything that would put her in the category of 'regular people' - a superiority attitude as another T pointed out).

So all this went into a 2 year process of deciding what to do with the relationship, and I decided to stay.  Im certainly not at a point right now where I am ready to change that.  And yes, I do get that the kids will be more independent sooner than later - it goes fast.  I could see them being pretty independent by the time my youngest is 12 - so 7 years.  For sure I have thought that maybe this should be the plan - ride another 7 years and then re-evaluate then.  It would take any form of retirement completely off the table, because of support obligations, and my wife has not inclination whatsoever to going back to work (she at one time had a high level job - but at this stage has the luxury of her current lifestyle ingrained - which to be clear isnt rolling in dough, a divorce would put me working for life to make payments while living in a small apartment and seeing my kids every other weekend).

Sure she is dissatisfied with the relationship.  And she knows exactly what I should be doing to fix it.  There is no ability on her part to even acknowledge that she is doing anything less than perfect - thats what makes the NPD/BPD combination so so difficult, and why we have failed with so many MC/T's.

I guess what I have been doing is building a pseudo separate life while staying in the marriage.  Room mates - although house mates is more accurate because we have separate rooms.  There are parts of the house that are so stressful for me to use that I just quit using them (the master bath, the dining room, basement, office, etc).  Have been just segregating small areas where I can function and living that way, and avoiding the rest.

Am I valuing myself enough?  I dont know... . But its important to me to do the best I can for my children, and this is for ME, not for them.  So Im staying for me and what I get out of honoring the commitment, not for their sake per se. 

It it werent for children, yes, at this stage I can say I would want to be as far away from my wife as possible.  An energy vampire (to me... . our styles are such that I find it draining to be around her).  Can I change that?  Well, I would like to, but havent figured out how and the healthier I get the more obvious it becomes.

Enough self honesty for one day... .  

[waverider]

Perhaps she has contempt for men in general so does not believe life will be bliss with anyone else, but neither does she want to be alone. So better the devil you know, rather than trying to tame a new one?

Maybe her "contempt" for you is not completely personal, but a reflection on others in general?

[Grey Kitty]

Yeeter, that is a great answer and a definitely enough self-honesty for one day!

It sounds like you can plan on sticking around for another ~7 years and re-evaluating, at least without your wife deciding that she doesn't want to do the same.

[zaqsert]

Hi Yeeter.  I just saw this thread, so I'm jumping in way late.  Very glad to see that you are back home and recovering.  I hope your recovery is quick, as easy as possible, and a very healthy one.  Way to go thinking and working through where you are and where you want to be.