Relationship breakdowns

[heartandwhole]

Hi everyone,

This might belong on another board, but I am starting to suspect that my brother has BPD, maybe with strong N traits.  Recently, we've had problems which resulted in a major breakdown of our previously congenial r/s.  If I look back, though, it has been breaking down for a couple of years, and I never understood why. 

Anyway, at about the same time of meeting pwBPD, I made a new female friend, who has very clear traits of BPD, and I've written about her boundary busting on this forum.  Both she and pwBPD are extremely self-aware and working on their issues, so that has been a great learning experience for me.  Now, with this meltdown in my r/s with my brother, I think back to all the signs that have always been there, and most recently they have shown up very strongly.  He has abandonment and attachment issues - my mother had to leave him for extended periods when he was a baby - which made her suicidally depressed and caused him to naturally have issues around that. Our recent meltdown was extremely painful for me, as it centered around the death of my father last year, and now I feel like I'm losing another family member (my brother).  Our family is extremely small, so this brings up fear of having no one who cares about me left in the world.

Am I paranoid, imagining that everyone around me has a PD?  Have I become so ultrasensitive to people's behavior that I see  everywhere and with everyone?   I would say that 4 out of 6 of my friends have serious issues, some addictive, some trauma- related.  I'm starting to feel uncomfortable in so many relationships that I wonder if I'm getting healthy or just shutting people out?  What seems to be happening with me is that the more healthy boundaries I set, the more problems I'm having with some people in my life, including my brother... . am I just telling myself that, or are they reacting that way because there's something wrong with me that I can't see?  When my friend with BPD told me that I was "controlling" because I tried to set some boundaries with her, I could see where she was coming from.  My mother has weak boundaries around my brother and when I set some, I'm breaking up the family dynamic and even my mother sometimes tries to get me to "suck it up."  I don't want to, and it makes me feel all alone, trying to take care of myself.

Is this the culling that people talk about here when we start to get healthier?   Do you see "unhealthy" behavior everywhere and wonder what happened to simple, reciprocal relationships with good communication?  Have I fallen into some kind of trap of externalizing my own stuff?

Thanks for reading. 

[Want2know]

It's not unusual to be concerned about seeing red flags in everyone after becoming so aware of them.  Everyone has some kind of red flag, so you have to consider the big picture, looking at the criteria for BPD and see how many of them fit.  Of course there is a spectrum, ie. traits vs. the full blown disorder.

I think regardless if they are actually just one time instances, traits or PD, how you recognize the behavior and then respond to it is key.

[winston72]

First of all, it is encouraging and instructive that experienced members such as yourself continue to open up and explore issues on this site.  Thank you for your commitment to the site and the ongoing example of commitment to your own self-examination and growth.

In so much as any of us became intimate with disordered personalities, we were likely to have other disordered people in our lives.  I know this is true for me.  And, of course, as we grow in awareness of these issues, we see ourselves and others in a different light. 

As Want2Know said (and thank you for the ongoing gift of yourself to this site!), the edge of growth for us is how we adjust our relationships to those traits.  The traits of disordered personalities are certainly a large part of all of our human interactions.

[Whatwasthat]

Hi Heartandwhole.


I haven't posted in a while but your thread made me stop and think because I'm going through some stuff at the moment that's not unlike what you describe. I'm still not sure what's happening with me - but I wanted to share some of my thoughts about my own experience as they might relate to your own process.

I think in the past eighteen months or so I've become much more aware of my interactions with people and what effect those interactions have on me and on them. I'm the kind of person who has always erred on the side of 'fitting in' and 'being flexible' and 'not rocking the boat'. Co-dependent I suppose. This is OK up to a point - but actually I've taken it too far in the past and am conscious now that I need to be clearer about my own needs. This is all a learning process. So in the early stages I know I am being a bit clumsy about it - I'm trying hard to say 'no' to things and not to backslide into saying 'yes' just because I can see that standing my ground might cause someone else momentary disappointment or make them disapprove of me. There are some family members who I now talk to only sparingly. I don't want to fall out with them - I don't think they're 'bad' people - but I'm suddenly aware that for virtually all of my life I've been interacting with them in this compliant, rather childish way - and it no longer feels right or comfortable. I am fairly confident that in time and with practice I will manage to remould these relationships into a more 'adult' pattern. But it certainly feels odd and peculiar right now - and I know that the changes I'm making are upsetting some people.

I don't think many of the people I want to re-shape my relationship with have major issues themselves. But because I'm now not prioritising adapting myself to fit in with them - but noticing aspects of their behaviour that don't work for me - they start to look much more like 'hard work'. They're still the same people they always were - but I've taken the rose-tinted glasses off. Doesn't mean I can't love them and spend time with them - does mean there are major adjustments to be made in how I interact with them. If I can get this right we should all be happier in the end.

Now having said all of that I would say that my brother does have a major problem. He's a very odd person - always has been - I'm not the first to have noticed it. But actually with this new attitude that I'm trying to foster in myself - that means that I don't have to please everyone and fit in with their needs - I'm finding it easier to deal with him.

I'd also say that I think you're being braver than me. I really hate confrontation. And if I were being truly honest I'd have had a couple of real confrontations with family members by now.

So to come back to your own account of what's going on with you. Could it be that  you too are going through a rather uncomfortable adjustment process. That you're now putting your own needs first and suddenly noticing that the needs of others often conflict with that - and that you have to say 'no' a lot and occasionally annoy people as a result? And that this makes a lot of other people look 'difficult' and 'disordered'.

From what I can work out it might be quite a good thing to feel a degree of discomfort as we change - but after a while we'll build new emotional 'muscles' and feel more 'at home' in this new approach.  

[qkslvrgirl]

I hope this is the culling... . because they are coming out of the woodwork now, for sure!



Quicksilver Girl

[Want2know]

I hope this is the culling... . because they are coming out of the woodwork now, for sure!

It is about being discerning as you choose relationships with friends or SO's, going forward, or managing a relationship with a family member in a way that is healthy.  An awakening, if you will, to a deeper level of understanding regarding human behavior.

[heartandwhole]

Want2know, I hear you.  I know it's not as important to have a "diagnosis" as it is to respond in a healthy way.  I'm learning to do that, and it seems to be separating me from people I love.  Maybe in time we'll be able to have a different kind of interaction, maybe not.  Others I set boundaries with are not good for me and I'm glad they are no longer in my life.  I feel a bit wobbly in this process, especially when people react negatively, so I'm glad I have a place to check in    (and therapist, too).

Hi winston72, very wise words, thank you.  Yes, it seems that I am realizing the extent of the dysfunction in my family like never before.  I suppose it's time, for whatever reason, and I'm grateful and feel a lot of compassion around this subject.  

Whatwasthat?  Thanks for chiming in, it's good to hear from you.  Your experiences sounds a lot like what I am going through.  I do want to say that the "disordered" traits that I'm noticing didn't just come as a response to boundary setting, they were there, manifesting in very confusing behavior, long before I knew what a personality disorder was.  That said, I'm definitely putting 2 and 2 together and noticing things more now, and ultimately it doesn't matter about the label.  I am not a professional, so have no business diagnosing people.  However,  I think because I've learned so much, I'm feeling sad, in general, and also afraid that I won't be able to patch things up with my brother.   :'(  I know it's too soon to say that, but it's how I feel.  You are absolutely right, this readjustment is difficult and yes, I am putting my needs first and it feels very, very strange!  And I am afraid that I'm overcompensating, you know?  Squirreling myself away in my protective place, so that no one can hurt me.  This is probably not what I'm doing, but I have that tendency and want to keep checking in to make sure that I am not just shutting down to people.  I really understand your not wanting to confront, I feel the same.  I also know that if I don't take care of my needs, no one will, so I have to risk it.  It's scary because I'm afraid I won't have anyone left, if you know what I mean.  At least until I meet some new people and start cultivating new relationships.

qkslvrgirl, I'm glad I'm not alone!  How are you handling it?


Thanks a lot, everyone, for your insights, it helps to know that this is a process and hopefully it's a healthy road I'm taking... .

[qkslvrgirl]

I think it is okay to shelter yourself as your awareness and introspection blossom. As I allow old thoughts to surface, recognize any lessons they may contain, and then let them go for good, it helps me to have some "space" for self love and care to fill in the holes.

I recently purchased the Lundberg book, "I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better". Just the title brings me joy  . I bought the book to learn more about validating other people's feelings. In the case of Heartandwhole's sibling relationship, perhaps a simple acknowledgement of the brother's feelings could provide a neutral but empowering communication.

As for the point about when to confront and when to be introspective, I am currently trying to balance the two. We've gone through three really 'difficult' contractors at work (this added work stress to deadline stress); and my uN/BPDh is dysregulated for the past 10 days. Happily, I am learning many lessons on how to handle myself and my communications in a healthy manner. But doing so is possible because I am taking time to listen to my inner voice and not just start talking.

As Want2know pointed out, as we become more discerning our awareness deepens. For me, now is not the time to speak, but to listen.

[heartandwhole]

Funny that you mention that book, qkslvrgirl, I'm reading it, too.  It seems like everyone on this board is  

I was able to write my brother a very heartfelt email validating his feelings about how I had let him down.  It made me feel better to communicate what I felt, and to see his point of view (as much as I knew of it).  I don't know if it made him feel better.  I feel sad because of how far our communication has broken down, and I don't know how to come back from it - or even if I can.

I like your idea of listening.  

[Want2know]

There is a great video on our site where Alan Fruzzetti, an incredible 'expert' in the field of validation regarding family relations, talks about this topic.  It's 51 minutes long, but well worth the listen, even if you have to view it in bits and pieces.  I highly recommend checking it out if you haven't already.

There are some great examples he shares, and he is actually somewhat humorous in his delivery.  He really seems to have a handle on the concept of validation, claiming it's not always easy or intuitive, but once you get it, it's hard not to see this in every day communications.

[heartandwhole]

Oooh, that sounds interesting- I'm going to check it out!  Thank you.

[mamachelle]

heartandwhole,

I think lots of good comments have come through. I just wanted to add that I have come to realize many of my friends (and relatives) suffer from PD traits. I have slowly moved away but kept in low contact. Some are far away. Some are relatively close. Some are great musicians. Writers, Artists. Just other moms... .

I keep talk superficial and sometimes open up but try to see the good and realize they won't ever be what I once thought. But the distance and disengagement and knowledge has given me clarity.

I did go LC then NC with a GF that I had hired as a co-worker about 5 years ago. She was lying to me, making bizarre decisions, damaging and losing data at my work and it was hard-- but I did "hire around her" and she finally left. She told me at one point a therapist thought she had BPD and i was shocked. She was a hermit, waif type really in retrospect--and I had just thought she was depressive. Then I found out about "depression fallout" (great book}

and realized living or working closely with someone who is Depressed is as frustrating and chronically damaging as living with someone with a PD.

My 2 DD now 13 and 16 get tired of me looking at all their GFs with my 'PD filter glasses' but a number of their friends have been known to cut, getting into drugs, causing drama and just lying. Just yesterday a GF of my 13 yo was trying to get my DD back as "best friend" and was doing textbook BPD stuff and my DD was texting her all this stuff about how this girl had wronged her and I said "honey just stop-no matter what you say will not convince her" tell her " I'm sorry you are going through this I think maybe you should see a therapist [as your parents said]"

she did, and the girl stopped texting and begging her to come back.

It's hard, it's part of a process, but eventually you should be able to find a few close friends you can trust again. I would hope you can keep things with your brother at a LC versus NC state. Yes, validation helps.


mamachelle

[heartandwhole]

Hi mamachelle,

Thanks so much for adding your experience, it helps to know that this is happening to others, too.  It just seems like I see unhealthy behavior all over the place, and it is shocking to me, too.  Maybe it's a good sign: we are noticing it because we are changing our behavior and therefore it stands out to us?  That's what I'm hoping.

I hope in time things will improve with my brother.  I love him very much and wish we could communicate in a healthy way, but maybe we can't for a while, or ever again.  One step at a time.  This taking care of myself is a bit scary, but rewarding.

That depression fallout book sounds great.  I'm going to check it out. 

[winston72]

I cannot locate the Fruzzetti video on this site.  Can someone please direct me on how to find it.

Thank you.

[heartandwhole]

winston72, I took the speedy route and found it on YouTube     There are tons of vids on the same page on BPD and DBT.  Enjoy!

[Want2know]

I cannot locate the Fruzzetti video on this site.  Can someone please direct me on how to find it.

Thank you.

Sorry, I meant to include the link... . here it is: https://bpdfamily.blogspot.com/2013/06/validation-encouraging-peace-in-BPD.html

[winston72]

Thank you!

[Want2know]

winston72, I took the speedy route and found it on YouTube     There are tons of vids on the same page on BPD and DBT.  Enjoy!

What did you think of the Fruzzetti video?  Helpful?

[winston72]

It was very helpful!  Dr. Fruzzetti has a wonderfully casual and warm style of presentation that really allowed me to absorb the material quite comfortably.  In fact, I would say his style of presentation is validating!  Okay, not the correct application of the term, but it was a great help.  I listened to it as I did some laundry and chores... . a great addition to my Sunday afternoon.

It is a very useful presentation for everyday interactions.

Thank you for the link.

[heartandwhole]

I found it helpful, too.      Then I watched him role play a DBT session with a woman and was really surprised and interested in his way of interacting with her.  He didn't seem afraid to express what he thought, even if it kind of triggered the client.  In other words, he wasn't walking on eggshells - it seemed spontaneous and authentic.

[Want2know]

I found it helpful, too.      Then I watched him role play a DBT session with a woman and was really surprised and interested in his way of interacting with her.  He didn't seem afraid to express what he thought, even if it kind of triggered the client.  In other words, he wasn't walking on eggshells - it seemed spontaneous and authentic.

Do you think this could help you with your situation regarding your brother, or others that might display behaviors that we typically see with a pwBPD?

[heartandwhole]

I do.  And I tried it when I communicated recently with my brother.  I'm not sure how he received it, it was by email.  Once, not long ago, I really was listening and trying to understand what he was saying, and I said something like "I hear you," and nodded to show comprehension.  He took it very badly, to him it meant the opposite of what I was trying to do, which was show that I was listening and trying to understand his position.  He is very well versed in psychology.  The thing is, I really meant to say that, it was natural, so it wasn't because it was forced.  Another time, further in the past, we were able to have a very uncomfortable conversation about our feelings.  It was very hard, he said he was afraid of my reaction.  But I reassured him that I wanted to hear his feelings and I was able to apologize for hurting him.  So, I know this is possible, but it is very hard for him (and me, too, but I want to go there) and I think he feels better at a distance, like emailing.

Just this weekend, my female friend (who has BPD traits) was in a bind and asked to stay over night with me, last minute.  I was exhausted and had work to do, so I said I couldn't help her out.  That was hard for me.  But I backed it up with questions about what was going on with her, and called to talk to her for a bit on the phone.  She took it well, and in the end, she had to confront the situation she had wanted to avoid and it went well for her.  I kept thinking, "I don't have to solve this problem for her, I don't have solve this problem for her."   I'm amazed at how often I just take it on, as if it were my problem.  Thanks to that book I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better, I am learning that it is NOT my problem to solve.  Very freeing, but I need to get used to letting go without guilt.

Thanks for the prompts Want2know - this reflecting is very helpful!  

[winston72]

These are great reminders and guidelines for healthy ways of relating to people, regardless of whether or not they are disordered. 

I have much to learn!  Thankfully, these are ways of improving my/our quality of life are fully within our control.

[Grey Kitty]

H&W,

I like your attitude on needing to re-define or cull friendships and relationships now that you are moving yourself to a new level. I wish you more people in your life rising to the level you are aiming for 

Since we are on P.I. here I've got a tougher question for you: You aren't very specific on what boundaries you are enforcing. I'm remembering the lesson on boundaries which points out that our boundaries should be to protect us from things which violate our core values.

Boundaries set without using our values can be shallow and confrontational.

Do you need to re-consider any of the boundaries you have been enforcing around other family members or friends?

[heartandwhole]

Hi GK, thanks for chiming in.  You asked some good questions.  Hm, I've been thinking about this.  It seems my boundaries are around valuing my own needs above others' these days.  I also value direct communication (as opposed to communication through another family member, or speaking for me to others), respect, I value my time, etc.   The basics, I guess.

Lately, my boundaries seem to revolve around saying no to people, or not doing things. I do think that they are reflecting my values and not just arbitrary "rules," but I could be wrong.

Maybe you are picking up on my fear that instead of erecting boundaries, I am just building walls, in order NOT to have to really communicate my values and what actions I'll take when they are violated?  If I hide, or shut someone out, I don't have to see the truth of their behavior, feel what that means for me, and then do something about it, possibly losing them, and/or feeling guilty.  Wow, that sounds kind of cowardly, doesn't it    I think I am a bit insecure about this and I've talked to my T about the difference between walls and boundaries.  I've had lots of practice the last year or so. 

Another point may be that I allow my boundaries to be violated (because I'm not in touch with my values or needs) so I don't act right away, then later I act rather assertively after the fact because I realize that it is against my values, which seems to come out of nowhere and people don't handle it well and I don't feel good either.  In other words, it takes a few violations for me to act, which sends a confusing message to the other person.

I would like get better in living my values and communicating them naturally through my actions.  That feels the healthiest and most loving to me.

Thank you for the thought-provoking questions GK !

[qkslvrgirl]

heartandwhole:  I allow my boundaries to be violated (because I'm not in touch with my values or needs) so I don't act right away, then later I act rather assertively after the fact because I realize that it is against my values... . possibly losing them, and/or feeling guilty.

I so relate to these statements! What I'm learning is three-fold: 1) Just because I am more aware of my feelings and reactions, this doesn't stop a pwN/BPD from gaslighting or trying to feed off negativity generated from their own neediness; 2) my values = my boundaries and sometimes people who violate them are just after a reaction, which is better not to give them; and 3) this IS the response necessary to allow them to find solutions to their own manufactured turmoil.

Once we've stopped walking on eggshells, it doesn't mean we have to go to other extremes of clomping around in great big boots trying to confront and counter every attempt to gain a response, either. Not only can I not make things all better, that is NOT helping others learn to deal with their issues themselves.

And isn't the practice of asking validating questions a good way to empower others to find their own answers?

Quicksilver Girl

[Cumulus]

Hi heart and whole, this last post of yours has given me much to think about. Walls vs boundaries vs rules. For myself who has had no boundaries I think you have well defined the difficulty that I encounter in understanding just what it means to have personal boundaries and how difficult it is to try and consistently keep them in place. Frequently I will react well after the fact that I have allowed my boundaries to be crossed and try to understand why I let that happen. Another thing that you touched on that is pertinent for me is at what point are you becoming rigid and enforcing rules that sometimes need to bend or change vs boundaries which I believe should remain fairly rigid. Thanks for the thoughts, Cumulus.

[qkslvrgirl]

This is something I found very insightful: Sam Vaknin's YouTube videos on narcissism. He wrote a book called "Narcissism Re-visited" that I've not yet read.

What I found profoundly helpful was gaining a deeper understanding of PD mental constructs.

His insights illuminated why our "defending our boundaries" both fuels the problem for us and gives a pwNPD the attention they feed on - thus perpetuating both people's problems.

For me, it was empowering to have insight and recognize how my behaviors (including words) contribute to the problem... . and this frees me to understand that my lack of immediate response is quite often exactly correct.

[heartandwhole]

qkslvrgirl, thank you for sharing your insights.  I've seen some of S. Vaknin's videos.  It reminded me of some people in my life, but on a much lighter spectrum than he describes, thank goodness.  It would be helpful to understand how people with PDs think.  On the other hand, sometimes I'm tired of trying to understand how they think - that is part of what got me into this mess in the first place.  Growing up it felt like I had to adapt to everyone else's needs and quirks and behaviors and no one adapted to mine.  Lately, I've been feeling frustrated by that    But I do know what you mean, ultimately it would help me.

Cumulus, thank you for adding your thoughts.  It really helps to know that others are going through similar things.  I found your description that boundaries should be fairly rigid interesting.  I get so confused about that, because when mine are rigid, they feel like walls/protections/a big NO, and I think that comes from fear and insecurity about the validity of my needs/values.  When my boundaries truly come from my needs and values, they don't feel rigid, they feel strong and comfortable and open to possibly changing - and there is nothing to defend, because they are simply my "truth" in the moment, and I feel secure. So maybe we are talking about the same thing and it's just my own perception of the word "rigid."  It is a word that I am sensitive to, for example, I may have heard it from my BPD-trait friend when she was busting my boundaries,     

[Cumulus]

Hi, I agree, rigid is one of those words that can tend to make you prickle just hearing it. I think because this whole concept that I can have boundaries, that I deserve my own little space in the world and that it is ok for me to meet my own needs is so new to me that I do need to be rather rigid at this point. When I am more comfortable knowing where I am at and exactly what boundaries are important to me then I believe I will be able to relax them. Thanks for your feed back.