How much are her actions "BPD" and how much are "choice"?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Scout99 I think you have said it in much better way then I tried to do.

[Reg]

Scout99 I think you have said it in much better way then I tried to do.

[Cooper10]

Scout99 and Reg, I completely agree.  Brilliant and well-said.

BPD is a lose-lose situation.  They hurt themselves and they hurt the victims.  The harmful effects on us can be so powerful that they blur the distinction of malicious intent versus illness.  Insanity is a mental illness.  The insanity defense allows a person who commits a crime to avoid liability where, at the time of the crime, the person did not appreciate the nature or quality or wrongfulness of their acts.  This doesn't mean that the crime is committed without consequences or that we don't hold them responsible--the mentally ill person typically is institutionalized rather than imprisoned.  But the law has decided it is inappropriate to assign criminal liability where a person didn't have the mental state to appreciate that s/he was committing a crime.

Though it looks different than insanity, BPD is a mental illness also.  I don't think that means that we as nons are required to suffer the effects of that--BPD is not a free pass to hurt others just like insanity is not a free pass to commit crimes.  To understand the illness helps us to make sense of everything, but it doesn't change that we should not continue to be in unhealthy relationships with them.  In that way, like the mosquito example, it really doesn't matter what the motivation is as far as our continued interactions with them are concerned.  Once, my ex did something so blatantly hurtful that it was mind blowing.  In the aftermath, he told me he didn't mean to hurt me and asked me to decide whether he was an idiot or a jerk, begging for another chance if I believed the former.  I told him it didn't matter when the effects of his actions were the same.  In trying to help him realize this I asked, "if I was killed in a car accident with a drunk driver who didn't mean to hurt me or shot in the head by someone in cold blood, would it make a difference to you whether I died because someone intended to kill me or not?  I would be just as dead either way."

[tailspin]

dizzy,

My ex loved to pontificate about "free will" yet was never able to apply this concept to his own life.  I think he really did know the pain and hurt he caused others was "wrong/bad/black" but was never able to reconcile this knowledge with what he was able or willing to do about it... . which was nothing.

I do believe he tried to control his mental illness but he chose to never take responsibility for it.  Knowing some (abnormal) reactions are beyond your control is one thing, but refusing to take responsibility for what you do in response to these reactions is a choice.

tailspin

[willtimeheal]

All valid points.  But it does not take away the responsibility of their actions.  I am sorry but it doesn't.  My ex BPD who was an alcoholic for the majority of our relationship as well used to tell me it was my fault she drank... . she would say with a smile on her face, "you bought it for me."  There is little I can do when she orders drinks at dinner in a restaurant.  That little smile and remark demonstrate she was throwing blame.  My exBPD would always say her family was dysfunctional.  She knew it and she knew that inorder to have a some what normal life she would have to distance herself from them.  She would tell me that.  When she was in therapy her therapist told her the same thing.  But she choose to stay with them... . With the dysfunction and she quit therapy.  That this a choice to live in that chaos.  It was easier to stay in the chaos and blame others than to make the necessary changes.

[Scout99]

All valid points.  But it does not take away the responsibility of their actions.  I am sorry but it doesn't.  My ex BPD who was an alcoholic for the majority of our relationship as well used to tell me it was my fault she drank... . she would say with a smile on her face, "you bought it for me."  There is little I can do when she orders drinks at dinner in a restaurant.  That little smile and remark demonstrate she was throwing blame.  My exBPD would always say her family was dysfunctional.  She knew it and she knew that inorder to have a some what normal life she would have to distance herself from them.  She would tell me that.  When she was in therapy her therapist told her the same thing.  But she choose to stay with them... . With the dysfunction and she quit therapy.  That this a choice to live in that chaos.  It was easier to stay in the chaos and blame others than to make the necessary changes.

I get you completely!

No it doesn't make them get a free card from responsibility. The difference is as non's we can exercise control at will. We can choose to silence our emotions and go into logic mode if needed. Now even that can be hard enough.Sometimes even a cinnamon bun can take control of us, several times a week even... .  But we can still do it way easier than a person with a personality disorder ever can.

But I agree with you that not jumping to the chance of getting help and keep on trying is also a choice. However again. For somebody not having a PD quitting alcohol even with a lot of help can be pretty hard to do and many never succeed... . Doing it with a PD makes it that much harder... .

If a non chooses to stay in addiction or even in a dysfunctional r/s it is a sign of choosing not to take responsibility. When a person with PD does it, it is partly a choice, and partly a belief that they just can't make it. Taking responsibility might be a thing they wish the most that they could. I know it is for my SO BPD. He wishes so much he could follow through. And he takes on loads of responsibility in his work. But as soon as something involving emotions come to play, if so just a puny phone call w someone at work he can't immediately please - his whole world crumbles and falls apart... . Suddenly he can't even spell the word responsibility, but is instead all feelings... . Because they overpower and overwhelm him... . I have watched it so many times from the side, and have come to realize that no matter how hard I try I don't even come close to understanding how it feels for him in those situations... . Simply because I am not wired the same way in my head... .

The example you bring up here, is clear cut from your non pd perspective. Of course your ex BPD gf should have remained in therapy. Of course it would have been better for her to get away from bad relatives. That's logic for you and for me... .

For her it would be going through with the toughest separation thing she ever would have been able to imagine and willingly force herself to get to what she fears the most - abandonment from the only people, dysfunctional or not, that still is a part of what is consistent in her life and choose to go to a place of constant discomfort that is the price for learning our way of dealing with things, or not learn really but learn how to mimic... .

Therapy can be a big help, but it is not a cure. Emotions rule the BPD, not logic or reason. I am a firm believer in therapy. But realistically, a person with a severe PD doesn't become a normal person because of therapy. They can learn to mechanically mimic skills and tools not to make life such a living h*ll for people around them, making it for instance easier to keep a job or even a r/s perhaps depending on the quality of the therapy offered... . Panic attacks, some anxiety issues, phobia and depression can be cured with therapy, but not as or yet PD's... .

Learning coping skills that might make the world of difference for people around them doesn't necessarily really make them feel that much better... . It doesn't mostly even silence the emotional chaos on the inside of them, it only teaches them how to endure remaining in the pain without releasing it... . So it is not necessarily a win win for them... . again depending on the severity of the disorder... .

I have come to believe that sometimes staying in the chaos their in might actually be the best choice for some of them, in some cases. And then again the worst for others. PwBPD are just not all alike... .

Important though, and what I believe you are really after, is the fact that we who get ourselves involved in r/s with people who have these disorders are not in any way obligated to stay within a dysfunctional relationship with a person who is driving the living daylights out of us just because they have a disordered mind. We do have a choice! And we are fully equipped to take responsibility for our choices and our actions. And can choose to bail out. Heal and see a T and truly change our lives... . They don't really have the same plethora of options... . They can choose between living a roller coaster life with extreme highs and lows or a perhaps more controlled life behavior wise, but never really without the undertow of burning fear and chaos inside... . They can't ever get totally free from their disorder or from themselves. Non's can. It is however a very sad truth... .

[papawapa]

It is 100% choice. As humans we act. We make choices based on perceived discomfort and we choose from available means to reach our desired end of feeling better. It makes no difference if a person has BPD or not, we are all still acting individuals.


I do not believe pwBPD have no empathy, can't feel love, or any of the other such things I have read many people on here claim. What I do believe is their brains are wired differently than ours. They become overwhelmed by their emotions and to overcome their discomfort they take actions that they have learned work for them. They become so overwhelmed that they do not think about what the extended consequences of their actions might be. What they have is a set of coping tools they use as a means to quell their inner suffering.

[Iamdizzy]

Yes!

Their past history of abuse is horrible and I allowed so many things slide. I've stated before I didn't see her abusing me, I saw her abusoers rather than seeing HER for her behavior. I let so much crap slide because of it. I'm not beginning to realize that like some of you on here have said IT DOES NOT EXCUSE HER BEHAVIOR. It's up to you. There were many people here who have suffered from so much pain and traumatic experiences, it's up to us to THINK about what we are going to do. For example, I had my older sister diagnose with cancer at a relativity young age, thank god she is in remission. What did she do? During and after? She kept positive, moved ahead. No one could say having cancer isn't traumatic. One of my best friends was deployed a few years ago came back and was completely messed up in the head. He went and looked for professional help. The things he had to do/see I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

My BPDex? Went to therapy 3x and each therapist, according to her, was horrible and she never went back. Btw she was forced to go by her parents. She needs help she knows it but does not look for it. Rather, looks for guys to have sex and satisfy her, that's her ill fated therapy. I have no doubt they know what they're doing they are grown adults.

[thisyoungdad]

Reading everyone's thoughts and experiences reminds me of a piece of my relationship I had not thought about. My ex wife always from the earliest days was very sensitive, not necessarily with me although yes at times, but just in general. She cried a lot, still does, over things that I was baffled she was crying about. Now we have a 3 year old. She is in this stage of pouting and crying and whining with me to get what she wants (she is a daddys girl and tries to play that card with me) and it is a very conscious thing on her part. Lucky for me it is a normal 3 year old thing and I get choices on how to deal with it. But it reminds me so much of my wife, in that young child like world where crying gets you what you need or want. Of course now my child is very verbal but even 6 months ago couldn't express herself super well and crying was a tool she used. So when I think about what my ex cries about, and what my daughter cries about (and her other little friends) it is strikingly similar at times the way they respond. I think it is that my ex is emotionally stunted at a young age for a variety of reasons. Interesting perspective though for me, because I used to find it so annoying she would cry over what felt like everything. Again, very sad really especially for my ex because she knows she is responding out of proportion or inapproriate for the situations. I think of how many times I just didn't know and treated her poorly because of my lack of knowledge about what was going on.

[Reg]

Hi thisyoungdad,

A most interesting comparison that you are making indeed.  Mine did cry a lot herself also.  In times she had a reason, but most of thime she didn't even know herself why she was crying, and I think these were the most honest moments.  Very often they seem to make up a reason, just like that... .

If you think about how poorly you have treated her, you should remind yourself of how much worse she did treat you.  We are no therapists and they are the only ones who actually need help (a bit or a lot, depending on the will to improve of the personin question).  I did let go of my guilt on that matter.

I really is what it is, the borderline, and that I can't do anything about it.  If she would have tried to see a therapist for this she would have received full support from my side, at least as a good friend.   But she preferred to listen to those who made with a really bad influence on her life.   I'm not going to destroy my life any further or again, trying to break down the former Berlin wall as a matter of speaking, all on my own... .

Reg

[danley]

There are  many people in this world that have had childhoods just as bad or worse than a BPD and they don't hurt people they way a BPD does and they take responsibility for their actions. You can distort reality all you want and view the world as unfair and uncaring but it doesn't give anyone the right to abuse or hurt someone else. As far as I am concerned  they have conditioned themselves to turn a blind eye or distort the reality so they can "forget" the abuse they just put someone through. I don't buy that it is all due to unconscious they are willing participants and on some level have an idea what they are  doing. That is why they keep running and running when they hurt someone. They are cowards and it is easier to blame someone else or your past instead of looking at yourself and making the necessary changes. But hey let's keep making excuses for them.

Wow.

That's how I feel about it too.  But then again, I don't know how much BPD plays a part too. I actually called my ex a coward when we broke up. It was the first word that came to mind. I pretty much told him what you wrote. He of course got upset and tried to manipulate by threatening to never give us a chance in the future. He also lashed out a number of excuses but I told him that the common denominator was still his fear of rejection, fear of intimacy, and of course his shame. He about lost it and then started attacking me in ways that I KNOW he knew would hurt me to the core. I guess his motto is AN EYE FOR AN EYE.

[Iamdizzy]

Reg, I too would of supported her all the way. My ex cried perhaps 3 days out of the week, every week. I figured its about her past sexual abuse that's what I was so lenient with her, I let so much slide. I was always there for her and at times I was never as angry as how she made me. She bought me to such points that I could say I've never been that angry before. I've never laid a hand on her but I would flip out but I do not have anger towards myself for that.

I told my ex, my final words to her , you need to find god and a psychologist and from then on never has called me again.  I figure she has a clue that I know about her behavior.

[momtara]

It's hard to know.  They do have SOME control over it.  But not over all of it.  When I finally left my husband, he wouldn't admit to anything.  Slowly, he started admitting to things and going to therapy.  He kind of knew all along that the verbal abuse was wrong.  Or maybe he didn't entirely know.  You know what?  I don't know!  He has descended back into it now, and it is pushing me away when really, deep down, he wants us to get back together. 

It's so terrible that this disease makes people do the opposite of what they really want.

[LosingIt2]

It's a mental/emotional disorder. There are plenty of skeptics out there who scoff at mental illness. If that's how you feel then this probably isn't the right board for you. PwBPD process emotions differently, and it leads to unstable relationships... . that's why this forum exists, to cope with the personality disorder. It's real, they're not making it up. There are probably support groups out there for "my bf/gf is a do*che bag". You can take that approach too, no one is stopping you. We would like our pwBPD to get help, but it's just not that easy. You should hold BPDs accountable the same way you would an alcoholic. It's an illness.

[snappafcw]

"i know im over a month late, but i wasnt sure to reply to you or not.

but anyways, thank you for wishing me a happy birthday and everything else.

hope everything has gotten better for you since everything that happened.

i just wanted you to be happy, i was just so much trouble for you.

& i understand why you blocked me on fb and everything.

be happy.

thanks for everything, take care of yourself."

This is the last ever email that i got from my uBPDexgf  about 6 or 7 weeks ago. She has had other rare small moments of clarity like this one but would quirky resort back to her cruel passive aggressive self with the snide remarks thrown in. The way i see it I really do think her heart deep down is in the right place but having this disorder she will always act on impulse to do anything to make their emotions feel better. I think they are aware of what they are doing but not the hurt they cause at the time because they are trying to survive. its afterwards that they feel the shame and thats generally when they run rather than face their wrong doing. My take on it anyway.

[Iamdizzy]

Snappafcw,

Perhaps you're right, that's a good take on it. I do think her actions are deliberate having BPD is not an excuse. But I don't have BPD I can only speculate that before they fire their cruel words at us, there is a moment in which they say "it's hurtful, you know it's going to hurt them". Perhaps they may feel shame and run away because they can't bare the thought of having hurt yet another person who has loved them.

[Numbers]

Yes, there is much controversy on this topic, both here and on other forums, no matter the attitude towards illness.

I am personally now firmly into "personal choice" territory. Mine could fuction normally in work or with friends. There certainly are invalidating triggers in such environments too, but she chose to act out only in her intimate setting. So, control mechanisms are definitely present and being used. The simple, and therefore almost certainly true, reason for hostile, hurtful and unethical behaviors in relationship is that there is no applicable sanction. Me and all of us here were always considered as easily replaceable.

I can accept that BPD conditioning lays the groundwork for dysfunctional realtionship and that there exists an underlying deficiency or disorder of personality. However, there is supposably a sizable number of BPDs in professional psychology/psychiatric community and I guess much of "oh forgive them they do not know what they are doing" advice comes from such sources.

Further proof from my last recycle:

- At the beginning I said: "please let's not do this if you do not have an understanding, energy and will to improve on what did not work."

- 2 weeks in I said: "we are in good place now, I think we can be really good friends, let's not sacrifice this for another breakup."

- a month later... . triangulation (read definition) > rage > boom.

My messages were clear and very well heard.

[LosingIt2]

Ignorance is bliss.

US: From idealization to devaluation - why we struggle

for members that have exited BPD relationships

[Conundrum]

I am personally now firmly into "personal choice" territory. Mine could fuction normally in work or with friends. There certainly are invalidating triggers in such environments too, but she chose to act out only in her intimate setting. So, control mechanisms are definitely present and being used. The simple, and therefore almost certainly true, reason for hostile, hurtful and unethical behaviors in relationship is that there is no applicable sanction. Me and all of us here were always considered as easily replaceable.

I do not believe that situational competence is evidence of machiavellian intent, but is illustrative of innate inconsistencies present in this relational disorder. While invalidation may occur in the workplace, or with friends, the core abandonment wound more often than not plays out in the most intimate of relationships. When untreated, it is too simplistic to posit that situational control mechanisms can easily be transferred to the relationship in which the abandonment cycle is being replayed--because the nature of untreated emotional dysregulation is that it seeks a specific dynamic in which that particular cycle can be effectively re-enacted.     

I believe that (as nons) our subjective relational expectations do not align with their needs, and that disconnect colors the entire debate. In essence, that is the divide.

If we accept that they developed maladaptive schemas as children, then why do we expect them to process relational connection points in sequential order? Is it because that is how we are used to building meaningful attachments? They do not view attachments as a series of events joined over time carrying sentiment. While it is difficult for us to dissociate from what we perceive as a series of linked relational events carrying sentiment, that is not true for them. They perceive relational continuums as an abstraction.

That ability to meaningfully link relational moments over time, (which motivates behavioral boundaries) is deficient in this disorder. The maladaptive schemas that grew in place permit disassociation from (objectively) meaningful connections. That causes great suffering for nons because our relational values teach us that meaningful connections supercede trivial desires. Consequently, our relational codes of conduct reflect that. Being that they struggle greatly with meaningful relational connections, it is altogether not surprising that they require significantly stronger sensory/emotional stimuli in greater frequency than a non does. What we perceive as willful manipulation is a shame based coping tool--employed to alleviate the pain born from relational disconnects in an attempt to satiate perceived disordered needs.

[Skip]

Does an obese man eat cake because he has an eating disorder or because he chooses to be fat?

[tailspin]

Does an obese man eat cake because he has an eating disorder or because he chooses to be fat?

... . or maybe because cake is delicious 

[Skip]

Does an obese man eat cake because he has an eating disorder or because he chooses to be fat?

... . or maybe because cake is delicious  

Yes.  

Often, when a pwBPD is the most hurtful is when they are fighting back (dysfunctional coping) because they feel they were wronged or cheated (distorted BPD filtering of disappointment) - there can even be a self righteousness to it (satisfaction).

We often have a role in these confrontations.  If we are responsive to the bad behaviors, we are rewarding and encouraging it.  Over time it tends to escalate.

We're here to here to learn to heal from a failed relationship and a relationship is the interaction of two people.

[willtimeheal]

Some people are fat because yes they are to lazy to exercise or they have a genetic predipostion.  But hey... . you can get help for both those things instead of complaining. 

[Clearmind]

Schema Inventory: Take the Test

The "lonely child" is only one schema.

[Inside]

“how much of their behavior (rages) is PD and [how] much is personal choice?”

This is an answer without looking at what’s been posted: ‘Mine’ sure appeared to be ‘forcing’ her tantrums.  The ‘real’ anger she seemed to keep tight inside.  The rest appeared to be an act, almost choreographed.  The worst of her outbursts were far from spontaneous, I'd watch the gears churning… while she monitored my response.  If I remained calm - she’d ratchet it up.  If I ‘fought’ back (verbally), her responses seemed prepared.  

This led me to feel it was by “choice.”  Not to say she wasn’t responding to some inner fear, but it always appeared as though she’d wait for an opportune time to instigate and act.  Yes, nearly theatrical!  She’d also keep an eye open as to ‘who’ was witnessing her tantrum, she seemed to appreciate an audience, likely realizing it led to my further discomfort.  Strange …I felt ‘I could handle and/ or forgive’ such outbursts, but definitely feared ... . explaining them, or my acceptance of them to others; neighbors or friends.

I think ‘they choose’ the time & place – but have an apparent ‘need’ to ... . act on their inner fears.  Make sense    …if only in BPD land ~  

I found this very telling: “they choose to do the hurting before others can hurt them enough to change them... . ”   

I think it’s preemptive.  They know ‘it can’t last,’ so they hasten its demise…  And by attacking, they intend to have ‘you’ feel responsible for the relationship’s demise.  I’ve begun to feel they control their anger quite well … using it as a tool.

“I think people that avoid seeking counseling are like liars that refuse a lie detector test because they know they are guilty”  [also from Slimmiller]

There must be some powerfully overwhelming and terrifying fears going on within their heads.  Can you imagine – we (us ‘non’s’ behavior seems quite benevolent) are perhaps the most loving and giving people (left) in their lives – yet they turn on us   Talk about insanity…  They fear ‘us’... . ?  Or do they simply fear our opinion?  There’s a very hostile world out there, they apparently peg us as ‘their saviors’ (at least for awhile) …then drive us away... . ? 

…let’s see… what have I concluded: They know they’re not right, and no matter how hard they try or pretend - they’re still ‘not right.’  They formulate a pattern of behavior that allows them to survive.  But even they need more than mere survival …so they attempt love.  But like perpetual children, they do not understand the responsibilities of adult love.  They confuse many emotions with love, acting on them all.  Those that gain them attention and affection, they continue, even if it also gets them into trouble.

Given the unconditional love of a parent, they return to us.  And like every other personality disorder (I suspect), even ‘they’ recognize their disordered behavior doesn’t end well.  But no matter how twisted their minds – that’s all they know, and can only ‘compare’ their behavior and its aftermath to that of others.  And since it always comes up lacking or broken, they eventually realize/ assume (deep inside) …it’s their fault.

If they’ve the intelligence to recognize it … do they have the strength to face it?  And do they have the strength to consciously curb their defective instincts … to behave in a way that’s fake and foreign to them … just to fit into ‘our world?’  Personally, I think BPD’s almost exclusively hard-wiring and very little to do with upbringing.  And that’s why I feel it’s nearly impossible for them to ‘get well.’  Unlike PTSD, a trauma I’ve personally learned one can recover from, as it was ‘inflicted’ - as opposed to ‘hardwired,’ BP’s are often doomed.  And, they know it.

What can we do... . ?  What we do …I guess.  Remain stable loving human beings willing to help another in need.  If that person continues to betray our trust, or walk right back to the railing and climb overboard, again … we may eventually get tired of rescuing them …as they no doubt become resentful of being rescued…  I work with ‘cognitively delayed’ youth, in some, I think I’ve witnessed near suicidal intentions, almost ‘instinctive.’  On a higher level, I feel BPD’s exhibit the same inclinations; aware of their inabilities and defects, and incapable of ‘fixing them,’ they appear to endlessly seek a way of masking, numbing, or ending their pain.  And it appears we are used for all those reasons.  They know we love them, but that they can’t love us back.  They need us, like children need their parents … but we need more - and they can’t provide it.

I don’t think they mean to hurt us, or use us…  I think they ultimately feel deeply ashamed for all they’ve taken from us.  Perhaps, after what we give so overwhelms what little they contribute … they drive us away out of guilt.  They can’t face the one-way flow of love and generosity, know they’re incapable of ever matching it …so lash-out at us in anger with themselves.  If we see through it, recognize their pain … even step in to hold them closer – they feel engulfed by guilt and struggle with all they’ve got to get loose!  Aware of our weaknesses, they also know where to strike. 

Do we deserve their wrath?  Of course not, because (from all I’ve read and continue to read around here) – we are as Saintly as anyone … while experiencing a living Hell.  To me, if anyone within this dynamic has a disorder stemming from childhood – it’s us!  Though wired right upstairs, we do appear to respond in an addictive manor to the ‘mirroring’ and unconditional love (we may not have received in childhood) that BPD’s lavish on us at the onset…  And perhaps as people who’ve been hurt … we stand out as less likely to hurt others - and apparently show up quite prominently on a BPD’s radar!  So what seems like a “match made in heaven” …actually IS a match … except for the fact our BPD friends are not who they appear to be.  They’re not ‘us.’  And though we eventually find that out, and they feel guilty … we never appear to forget the feeling of unconditional love they temporarily lavished on us. 

[forgive me …going on... . ]  Are they evil parasites... . ?  Like someone stated … hating them would be like cussing out a mosquito…  And by the time they figure out they are parasites, they hate themselves all the more.  Now – if they only realized some (if not all) of us are willing to live with a few bites - because I think we see more… even more than ourselves reflected back on us.  We see something we love, and deserving of love.  Problem is, they apparently never will, don’t know how we could love something as defective as them … and continue to seek temporary praise for their fake behavior from others in a never ending cycle of dysfunction.  We can only remove ourselves from their equation.  And it’s not that we want to … but that we eventually have to… for what’s left of our sanity ~

[slimmiller]

I am personally now firmly into "personal choice" territory. Mine could fuction normally in work or with friends. There certainly are invalidating triggers in such environments too, but she chose to act out only in her intimate setting. So, control mechanisms are definitely present and being used. The simple, and therefore almost certainly true, reason for hostile, hurtful and unethical behaviors in relationship is that there is no applicable sanction. Me and all of us here were always considered as easily replaceable.

I can accept that BPD conditioning lays the groundwork for dysfunctional realtionship and that there exists an underlying deficiency or disorder of personality. However, there is supposably a sizable number of BPDs in professional psychology/psychiatric community and I guess much of "oh forgive them they do not know what they are doing" advice comes from such sources.


My messages were clear and very well heard.

Yes. The last time mine attempted to apologize I did not even respond in any shape or form. My thought was, why even apologize, its only hollow words and it was never real in the first place? I was just a door mat  

I understand the fact that they do have a genuine problem processing things in their mind normally. That being said, I challange anyone professional or not, to live in my shoes and live the Hell it takes to co-parent with my exBPD and then make excuses for her behaviours. I KNOW she is wired wrong but it is still a choice on some level. She does not spend weeks at a time flopped down with yet another 'soulmate' half my age in a college dorm room halfway across the country and not even call her own kids for weeks at a time because she 'cant help it'. Its a choice on her part to do that. No amount of 'messed up childhood'  excuses that. There are too many folks that have horrid childhoods that go on to at least function within what is considered the 'social norms' to say she HAS to live that way.

I think its partially a social mindset that accepts this kind of 'malfunction' of you will. If we took them (BPDs) back a 100 years I dont think society would be as forgiving of the maladaptive ways that BPDs function and I think they would have to get themselves within the norms of society. Society today kind of makes excuses for this sort of behaviour.

Its sort of like little Johnny has anger issues because of something that happened in the past, little Johnny pokes Susie in the eye for whatever reason because he gets some sort of satisfaction out of it. The parents stand there and tell little Johnny, 'Now Johnny, please stop that, you are hurting your sister'. They reason that he 'cant help what he is doing' because this or that has happened in the past so they dont want to upset him. They allow it to continue because after all 'he cant really help it right?' All the time little Susie is being abused and in pain and yet little Johnny's behaviour is because he has a problem. When in fact if the parents grabbed little Johnny, administered some firm discipline and made him go hungry for a few meals he would figure out pretty damn quick that, that kind of crap wont be tolerated.

My point is, mental disorder or not, it is being accepted and too many of us nons are being abused. And yes the BPDs know good and well they are inflicting pain but they enjoy it (at least on some level). They just choose not to own their own problems and instead force pain on the ones that love them the most

I am one of the most open minded logical folks you will ever meet and I just have a great deal of difficulty in giving them the 'its not a choice' pass

And yes I know, its my choice in how I will deal with it. I can not change her

[tailspin]

Does an obese man eat cake because he has an eating disorder or because he chooses to be fat?

... . or maybe because cake is delicious  

Yes.  

Often, when a pwBPD is the most hurtful is when they are fighting back (dysfunctional coping) because they feel they were wronged or cheated (distorted BPD filtering of disappointment) - there can even be a self righteousness to it (satisfaction).

We often have a role in these confrontations.  If we are responsive to the bad behaviors, we are rewarding and encouraging it.  Over time it tends to escalate.

We're here to here to learn to heal from a failed relationship and a relationship is the interaction of two people.

I saw this smug satisfaction with my ex and misinterpreted it for arrogance/entitlement as he seemed to relish the opportunity to inflict/deflect pain.

I now understand how there must have been some sort of anxiety release for him when this happened; like letting air out of an over-inflated tire or dodging a bullet. The temporary satisfaction he felt was a result of how it made him feel and had nothing whatsoever to do with the pain it caused me.  There was no room for my pain. 

I resented and hated him for this and was consumed by an anger that drained my energy. 

My healing began the moment I found the courage to trust myself enough to let go of him.

tailspin

[Skip]

I think its partially a social mindset that accepts this kind of 'malfunction' of you will. If we took them (BPDs) back a 100 years I dont think society would be as forgiving of the maladaptive ways that BPDs function and I think they would have to get themselves within the norms of society. Society today kind of makes excuses for this sort of behaviour.

Is there a social mindset that excuses a pwBPD?

One could also say that this is a highly stigmatized disorder.  The most extreme cases of this spectrum disorder have been portrayed by Hollywood as "typical".  And the disorder is more commonly identified with Jodi Arias than Marilyn Monroe or Hitler rather than Princess Dianna who all who appeared to have the disorder.  

But more important for all of us than any social statement is knowing that we have a choice. We can chose to have a realistic understanding of what happened in our lives so that we can pick up the pieces and make the changes we need and group forward... . or we can chose to look at this as "a weak society" or "good vs evil".

In your case, this has everything to do with co-parenting and helping your children.  As a person with BPD your ex will respond somewhat predictability to certain actions on your part and knowing this gives you the best insight on how to manage your ongoing co-parenting relationship for the benefit of the children.  

Your wife cheated on you and that is a Class A violation, a mortal sin, and one of the worse things that can happen to anyone.  You have every reason to be angry and resentful (A).  You also have a great responsibility to your children (B).  

As hard as it is to say this, to some extent, you have to chose.

We all do.

[LosingIt2]

This article is helpful and relevant to the turn this topic has taken.

The formation of the word ‘non’ has in itself setup a framework for ‘us verses them. Using the application of the word non, splitting is unnoticeably engaged providing an unyielding temptation to split a non as all-good and the borderline as all-bad... .

... . Black & white thinking is something that children and borderlines do quite often. Once some nons are actively engaged and enmeshed with the borderline personality, they too may begin to take on the primitive defensive mechanism of black and white thinking (splitting). At this stage a non becomes what may be referred to as a post-non. I have seen many examples of post-non thinking using absolute sweeping statements such as, “All borderlines are evil” and “Everyone in a relationship with a borderline is wasting their time” and “Borderlines never get better.” Notice the operative words “All, Everyone and Never.”

More here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=49987.msg636996#msg636996

[Iamdizzy]

BPD is a highly. Stigmatized disorder and in today's world people would just refer to them as being crazy (beep) people. A BPD wouldn't be able to carry that shame because they're already overly saturated with shame. I thank you all for your posts very insightful.

[danley]

Sometimes I feel like It's a confliction of both. A struggle of sorts. I've been thinking about this topic for a few days now. My ex painted me black as can be a few months ago. Accusing me of being selfish, in denial, only caring about myself and feelings. Flash forward to three weeks ago and now I'm special, caring, giving, and everything else wonderful. He has been saying a lot now like he used to say while we were together ... . that he cares about me, respects my feelings and me, that I'm so sweet, he appreciates my compassion, etc. Of course I'd like to believe all the kind words from him but It's so eerie how he flip flops from one extreme to the other. I believe It's the disorder but I think it has to do with choice too in a way. It's almost as if I can see his mind churning and fighting to make sense and find clarity in things. Seems like when he's in a calm state and feels comforted he chooses to believe and see the good. But when he's in a frenzy and hating on himself he chooses to pick out real or imagined bads about everything and me. Or rather, I become the dumpster for his self loathing and pain.