What happens to the BPD wife when she looses custody / visitation of kids?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I am hoping that members of this board could be of assistance with my trying to find out what to expect from my diagnosed BPD wife.

BACKGROUND: We have been together for 14 years. Have two children D7 & D8. My spouse has a serious drinking problem and has 2 convictions for child neglect / endangerment. I have been trying my best to accommodate her needs with access to the children for the last year while we were still together (but living apart) and trying to work things out. Her problems had become so bad that approximately 2 months ago I had to go limited contact substantially. She was showing up drunk to see kids... Calling to say good nigh intoxicated and incoherent.  Calling from bars to speak to kids. Acting recklessly. Saying inappropriate things to kids. Etc.

She had been binge drinking and serial dating for couple of months. About 6 weeks ago she told me that she met someone and had fallen madly in love (said she had not felt like this in 20 years). Then she told me she had to move on in order to find herself so that she could be there for the kids in the future. A couple of times since then she has expressed a strong urge to see the children but me and girls have been strictly. After her last conviction for child neglect she is only allowed to see the kids either supervised by myself or through a visitation center for addicts run by State.

We recently filed for divorce and I have spoken to several attorneys and they have told me because of her continued reckless actions and drinking, it is highly unlikely the courts will allow her to have contact with the children outside of the visitation center. Indeed the court may completely remove her legal rights to the children entirely as her case is considered a danger to the children's safety (she tried to commit suicide while in there presence). 

The question I have been pondering is what does a pwBPD person do when they have lost access to there children (or has very limited access  say 1-2 hours per week). Do they abandon them and move on with the next person (like they do S/O partners)? Does this create New issues of abandonment in them? Does it cause them to hit rock bottom and try to stop drinking / drug use so that they can reunite with there family in the future? Do they paint the kids /family black and take no responsibility for there actions? Any inputs would be greatly appreciated as I am trying to figure out what to expect and come up with a plan to best protect the children.

[confusedhubby]

I am hoping that members of this board could be of assistance with my trying to find out what to expect from my diagnosed BPD wife.

BACKGROUND: We have been together for 14 years. Have two children D7 & D8. My spouse has a serious drinking problem and has 2 convictions for child neglect / endangerment. I have been trying my best to accommodate her needs with access to the children for the last year while we were still together (but living apart) and trying to work things out. Her problems had become so bad that approximately 2 months ago I had to go limited contact substantially. She was showing up drunk to see kids... Calling to say good nigh intoxicated and incoherent.  Calling from bars to speak to kids. Acting recklessly. Saying inappropriate things to kids. Etc.

She had been binge drinking and serial dating for couple of months. About 6 weeks ago she told me that she met someone and had fallen madly in love (said she had not felt like this in 20 years). Then she told me she had to move on in order to find herself so that she could be there for the kids in the future. A couple of times since then she has expressed a strong urge to see the children but me and girls have been strictly. After her last conviction for child neglect she is only allowed to see the kids either supervised by myself or through a visitation center for addicts run by State.

We recently filed for divorce and I have spoken to several attorneys and they have told me because of her continued reckless actions and drinking, it is highly unlikely the courts will allow her to have contact with the children outside of the visitation center. Indeed the court may completely remove her legal rights to the children entirely as her case is considered a danger to the children's safety (she tried to commit suicide while in there presence). 

The question I have been pondering is what does a pwBPD person do when they have lost access to there children (or has very limited access  say 1-2 hours per week). Do they abandon them and move on with the next person (like they do S/O partners)? Does this create New issues of abandonment in them? Does it cause them to hit rock bottom and try to stop drinking / drug use so that they can reunite with there family in the future? Do they paint the kids /family black and take no responsibility for there actions? Any inputs would be greatly appreciated as I am trying to figure out what to expect and come up with a plan to best protect the children.

[ForeverDad]

Firstly, kudos for being there for your children.  They need you.

The fact is she already has limited contact, either with you or a supervision center.  Taking you out of the picture as a supervisor is a smart thing to do, it will reduce the pressure of tough decisions or guilt trips she will surely corner you into.

Very important, you can't let her (or your own good intentions) expose you to feeling coerced into allowing or feeling compelled to allow parental visits that aren't appropriate or wise.

She appears to be less focused and possessive of the children than most pwBPD described here.  That may be due to the fact that desperate spouses and parents may be more likely to find this site, but that's not a scientific observation.

1.  Abandon?  Yes, entirely possible since she's already mostly out of the picture but I'm sure she will pop up like a boomerang again and again when you least expect it, caught off guard or unprepared.  Children are a different connection than spouses and BFs/GFs, but clearly she's put her adult relationships ahead of her parental relationships.

2.  Heightened abandonment issues?  Probably, but it may not last for long and could soon revert back to her prior erratic 'norm' however un-normal that is.

3.  Hit bottom?  Perhaps but you can't trust any claimed improvement without evidence of long term and effecting therapy that is having a lasting effect on her thinking and behaviors.  It seems she's swimming along the bottom now, so I don't know if a divorce or reduced contact will have a positive impact on her.  Bottom line, believe long term improvements, words and promises mean nothing, action and follow though are what count.  (But if she ever does get into effective therapy and real progress toward recovery, it's to be expected there would be relapses here and there along the way but overall her consistent progress would be evident.)

4.  Paint kids black?  Hard to say.  Her connection to the children seems less intense than many pwBPD described here.  I'm sure you'll see it, but not to the extent others of us experience it here.  A lot depends on how she sees the kids, as extensions of herself or hazily from an emotional distance.

In any case, your parenting seems secure, something few of us here ever find or at least not quickly.  That will be good for the children, they need to see the good examples of parenting as well as adult choices.  If they see you making good choices then they'll be able to model your example and have more successful adult lives and relationships.

[Forward2free]

Sorry to hear that you are in this situation, but you sound organised and strong and I admire the steps you have taken so far to keep the kids safe. Great work!

BPD/Nxh didn't have a substance abuse issue, but anger and self control. He had no access for about 7 months, then a contact centre for 2 hours every 2nd week for almost 12 months, then 4 hours every 2nd week with a supervisor in the real world for a further 12 months. For the past 18 months he's had them unsupervised in the real world for 4 hours every 2 weeks.

He stuck it out the whole way, he's only missed one session, has been late only twice and brings them back on time.

I have plenty of concerns still, but he has proven to the authorities that he is putting the kids first. They have recommended increasing his time to include overnights in the next 6 months (court in November)

I expected him to act out when access was removed, and he did continue to be abusive and cause property damage etc. It was extreme and he attacked my mum in court, damaged their property, damaged my sisters property, stalking etc. Multiple intervention orders have been in place and expired in May this year and there hasn't been any reason to take them back out (that I can prove).

I don't think he's genuinely seeking help, he still has anger and control issues and acts out through the lawyers mostly these days. He has routinely seen a psychologist to comply with the orders, but I think it is teaching him to answer questions correctly, not redefining his behaviour. No one is more surprised than me that he stuck it out for 4 years and has been well behaved. I know that he loves an audience so the contact centre stuff was a breeze for his role as "greatest dad" which he hadn't played before!

The kids are now 6 and 8 and I am confident that they would speak up if they saw/experienced something wrong. It's a blessing to get them through 4 years without exposing them to his normal for more than 4 hours.

I think BPD/Nxh stuck around due to the Narcissistic pd and the children feed into the love that he desires... . just an observation with no educational basis!

Good luck to you for the next step.

[catnap]

My son has sole custody, his exgf was offered supervised visitation, but never followed through the steps to be granted visits.

It has been 2 years since she has seen her D (now almost 3 years old).  She has never let hm know new addresses or phone numbers, as required by the court.  It took a PI to locate her to be served parental rights termination hearing papers.  She did not show up for that court date. 

The only thing my son heard in the following months after the custody hearing was that she was telling people that "he stole the baby by telling the Judge a bunch of lies". 

[confusedhubby]

ForeverDad.

When you wrote "She appears to be less focused and possessive of the children than most pwBPD described here." How are the other mothers on these boards focused on there children? I am relatively new to the site and have not rea what other mothers who have lost kids have to say.

My thinking (hope?) is that when my diagnosed pwBPD wife realizes she has lost her children for good (in next 3-4 moths) it will make her grow up and begin to finally address her BPD & substance abuse problems. You can call it hit rock bottom. Right now she is under the illusion (or delusion) that se will somehow gain joint custody -- which just aint going to happen. I don't wish to cause her harm or put her into an abandonment depression but I don't know what else I can do in order to protect the kids.

I understand that there is also the very real possibility that she will just abandon the children and continue the idealization cycle. Maybe marry and have new kids... . who knows as the pwBPD is very irrational and impulsive? My thinking is that if she does continue the BPD / substance abuse cycle then there was no helping her at all and it's in the kids best interest to not have any further input from there mom as it's too destructive.

Finally the last possibility I see is that she detaches from the kids and I for a while only to later return when she has realized her errors and tries to address her issues. Whether this attempt is genuine or just another recycle attempt cannot be known yet as it's in the future. The problem with this scenario is that the kids may not wish to know her after what she did to us. I have seen in Al Anon many children of alcoholics who are so angered by there alcoholic parents selfish substance abuse that they no longer wish to have anything to do with them.

[confusedhubby]

Hi Kormilda.

Thank you for sharing.

Your experience is a positive sign that your ex at least had the decency to stay in your children's lives.

I don't know what type of anger issues he had but it does not sound as bad alcoholism.

Your experience gave me  hope.

[confusedhubby]

Hi Catnap.

Thanks for sharing.

It was tough to read your experience. It sounds as tough your pwBPD still has very serious denial issues. It is so tragic that she would do that to her child. I am worried that my wife may do the same thing. BPD is a horrible mental disorder and unfortunately its impact is felt by the family and loves of the pwBPD while they seem to be constantly in denial mode of the destruction they caused.

[ForeverDad]

Your experience is a positive sign that your ex at least had the decency to stay in your children's lives.

This is the quandary we face... .

As much as we would like our ex's to be involved parents, we really want them first and foremost to be reasonably normal parents.  Above all else it all hinges on that.  Few of us would even be here it they were 'reasonably normal'.

And many here would probably say that if we had to choose between a wandering or missing ex versus a possessive, entitled, demanding, threatening ex, we'd probably choose the one who has wandered away.  I know I would.  Not that I want my children to grow up without the other parent around, it's just so confrontational trying to protect ourselves and our children, struggle to counteract the ex's poor example, so wearing to always be on guard and always being challenged.

Your case is apparently involving poor passively absent behaviors, many others have to deal with poor actively intrusive behaviors.

So you may be facing Door A, others may be facing Door B but we all wish we were facing Door R (Reasonably normal or Recovered).

Two vastly different sides of the same disordered coin.  Sadly, we often don't get a choice.

[confusedhubby]

Hi ForeverDad.

Thanks for sharing.

I was hoping if you could tell me from your time on these boards, whether if many of the other mothers with BPD actually fought to be with there children or whether the idealization phase with the new knight in shining armor overtook there sense of responsibility so much that they just forgot about the kids ofr the new gay old times.

[KateCat]

confused,

I'm sorry for your plight and have nothing to offer except something I heard a social worker once say: that the one best "once-in-a-lifetime" chance for an alcoholic mother to face her disease and seek effective treatment in a clear-sighted way is in the immediate aftermath of losing custody of her children. (And, I'm guessing, that moment is basically now for your family.)

So, possibly a good course of action right now is one that emphasizes clear boundaries and definitions. Maybe now is not the time to offer her olive branches and future possibilities, if the time for action on her part is already here. Anything that allows her to continue to be in denial and fantasizing about a vague, rosy future could be counterproductive.

Do you have a counselor who can help you navigate these difficult waters? Your situation is truly not that common among the parents who post on this board, but there are professionals who do have experience with the plight of women like your ex wife. They may have some very practical guidance to offer.

[suffering_parent]

I am facing the same issues.   I currently have temp physical custody with 4 days of visitation.   She pretty much chose that in our temp hearing.    She moved 6.5 hrs away so it isn't going to be easy for her.

Once she realized she owed me child support though things changed.   Now she is wanting to fight for more custody.   She is even opening another case where she moved challenging jurisdiction.

I hope to keep custody.   Poor kids need stability and a sane life.   Like you I just wish she would hit rock bottom or someone grab her and shake some sense into her.    The kids don't really understand and they just want her to come home.

My expectations is continued abandonment after I am given perm custody.   After her new relationships falls apart she will likely try to move closer and get more time with them.   It is a bit unpredictable and very scary.

Best thing for the kids is they get help and try to be a good parent.   Mine won't admit anything is wrong with her though

[Forward2free]

Your experience is a positive sign that your ex at least had the decency to stay in your children's lives.

This is the quandary we face... .

As much as we would like our ex's to be involved parents, we really want them first and foremost to be reasonably normal parents.  Above all else it all hinges on that.  Few of us would even be here it they were 'reasonably normal'.

And many here would probably say that if we had to choose between a wandering or missing ex versus a possessive, entitled, demanding, threatening ex, we'd probably choose the one who has wandered away.  I know I would.  Not that I want my children to grow up without the other parent around, it's just so confrontational trying to protect ourselves and our children, struggle to counteract the ex's poor example, so wearing to always be on guard and always being challenged.

Your case is apparently involving poor passively absent behaviors, many others have to deal with poor actively intrusive behaviors.

So you may be facing Door A, others may be facing Door B but we all wish we were facing Door R (Reasonably normal or Recovered).

Two vastly different sides of the same disordered coin.  Sadly, we often don't get a choice.

I completely agree with you FD - unfortunately, I do not see BPD/Nxh as a positive influence in the children's lives and I face so much grief and hardship due to his presence. I am one of the people that would prefer Door R or absent!

Door R is not possible. BPD/Nxh is controlling, abusive - physical and emotional, manipulative, mean, revengeful, spiteful, selfish, conceited, entitled... . I could go on and on, but I think you can see that these are not endearing qualities and certainly of the "active intrusive" variety!

Absent - nah, not in my case. He'd rather punish me through drawn out legal battles, control me with passports and money and paint me black to the kids. Why leave when you can still play with your puppet from a distance?

From my limited understanding Confused, Alcohol is only a mask for the deep fears of abandonment, low self esteem etc, and even if/when the alcoholism is treated, there will still be a long road ahead for any type of recovery. Rock bottom may or may not be the start of a good chapter, just sayin... .

BPD/Nxh didn't mask his disorders with drugs or alcohol, but chose (and still chooses) violence, abuse, reckless living, risky sex, risky partners (underage, young, naive) and high risk activities. There is no 'easy' pwBPD in my experience, just varying levels of dysfunction to deal with. (I don't think you meant it that way, but just wanted to say my opinion  )

I think it is good to remain hopeful that she can be an active healthy mother, but most likely, this would be after years of intense therapy, if at all. You need to always focus on the kids best interests and if that means removing the mother until she is well, then that is the right thing.

[papawapa]

My BPD ex was married with four children when we met (we have two joint). She left her kids with their dad. It took like three years for them to finally get a divorce. At first she insisted she would fight him, take him for half of everything, and get the kids. In the end She let him keep the house and the kids. She agreed to custody every other weekend and one month in the summer and a very unfavorable holiday schedule. She wouldn't pick the kids up or drop them off on her weekends so she did not have them nearly as much as she was supposed to.

When I got fed up with her threatening to leave me and made her take her stuff and go she moved in with her daughter's ex boyfriend. Her daughter had broke up with him the day before I booted her out. When she started threatening to take the kids to stay with her at his house on the weekends I filed the custody case. To this point she has not really complied with much of anything in the court order. She has had one visit that was for one hour in the last three months.

She tells me all the time that she misses the kids and wants them in her life and will do whatever it takes to be able to have more time with them. Her actions betray her words. She is still using. She refuses to leave the scumbag she is living with. She has it in her head that the court is not going prevent the kids from being around him (he was convicted of felony battery and is also a drug addict, she had to call 911 on him earlier this week). Her daughter will not let her see her grandchildren until she leaves him. I have told her that I would agree to 50/50 custody if she leaves him. All she cares about is herself.

As much as I want her to be in our kid's lives I have a lot of doubt that even losing her kids will be enough for her to get herself together. My gut tells me that if she does not follow through with the court order, refuses to leave him, and only is allowed supervised visitation that she will abandon the kids and drink herself to death.

[ForeverDad]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but please pardon me as I comments on a couple posts here... .

I was hoping if you could tell me from your time on these boards, whether if many of the other mothers with BPD actually fought to be with there children or whether the idealization phase with the new knight in shining armor overtook there sense of responsibility so much that they just forgot about the kids for the new gay old times.

Answer this... . What is her baseline?  Right now she's wandered off.  Is this typical or is this a never-before-seen choice?  Understanding the Borderline Mother by Christine Ann Lawson has as its subtitle "Helping Her Children Transcend the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship".  So although it seems unpredictable, it's more like predictably unpredictable.  There generally is a pattern that can be discerned.  Another question... . Has she always taken minimal care of the children or is it just recently that she's run away?

It probably is anecdotal and not scientific, but most members here report possessive, controlling, demanding pwBPD.  Is that typical out in the general population?  Or is it because those hurting the most and oppressed the most are more likel to search for help and thus find their way here?

As I wrote before, as sad as it is that she's showing little interest in the children, the other side of the coin is that you can also be thankful she isn't actively blocking, obstructing and sabotaging your parenting.  From where I stand I think you have the lesser of two evils.  Even if she doesn't seek or attain recovery, her seemingly passive nature may allow you to permit her to have some limited parenting but yet not trusted too much since she is also prone to a level of disappointment for you and the kids.

I have told her that I would agree to 50/50 custody if she leaves him.

And if she takes you up on it, then what?  Gifting her 50/50 custody could last for up to 18 years or however long it takes the kids to grow to adulthood.  She on the other hand could find a new BF - or go back to the old one - before the ink on the signatures is dry.  "Warning, Will Robinson!  Dr. Smith is loose."

[confusedhubby]

Hi Forever Dad.

Thanks for the inputs. it is appreciated

I am uncertain what you mean by her baseline. She is very giving and not typically a demanding wife or mother.

At first she was inseparable from the kids (D7 & D8). However about 4 years ago she had several times where she was removed from the house by child services. Each time I would be as accommodating as possible to give her maximum access. She has never wandered off like this before -- and never moved in with someone new or claimed to fall in love with them.  For the last 14 months we have been living apart (she lives down the road from us) and I have tried my best to give her maximum access.

During this period where she has lived apart I have taken over more of the responsibility to take care of the kids though she has made genuine attempts at times (although her alcoholism kept getting in the way). She has a very serious drinking problem.

I know she loves her kids but like all alcoholics she is selfish and loves the bottle more.   




I

[confusedhubby]

Hi Papawapa Thanks for sharing. As a father I was saddened to hear what you have been going through.

Your experience was hard to read as I fear this may be my wifes reaction. I am pretty certain that her ne boyfriend is her enabler and that is a pretty big magnet.

[ForeverDad]

Likely she will always be the weaker parent.  Accept that.  Don't expect her to be more than she can be at that point in time. PwBPD have roller coaster emotions and inconsistency is the norm with them.  However, you can do something most pwBPD would never do:  You could have primary custody and majority time and yet be reasonable and allow her to have a little extra time here and there depending upon her current state of mind.

Conditional parenting perks, where she gets unofficial extra when behaving well, may work for you if done gradually (after you get a good final order), just beware that it doesn't become too regular in case she decides to demand it as official time.  I hate to phrase it this way, but when feeding the lions, tigers and bears, you don't stick your arm in the cage or you may lose it.

[confusedhubby]

Thanks foreverDad. Very good advice.

[livednlearned]

My T said substance abuse + a personality disorder is a double whammy. My ex lost custody and it changed nothing.

I don't think there is a rock bottom for him. There's too much whirling and swirling around emotionally for him to even recognize bottom. Every time he gets there, his PD stuff kicks in and he blames someone else for his problems, or he creates a narrative that only makes sense to him (it was the medicine that made me do it, instead of admitting he drank half a bottle of vodka). It's a house of mirrors.

[papawapa]

Good point forever dad. My intention is to get it written in the order that he not be allowed contact. The kid's therapists have made it clear to the GaL that there is no reason for him to have anything to do with the kids. I also talk to the Dr that did our psych evals and I am fairly sure he will put it in his report that the kids not be allowed near him.

As far as her leaving him and later recycling I dont think that will be an issue. Especially once it becomes clear to her that being with him will limit her time with the kids.

[confusedhubby]

@KateCat

Common sense would dictate that for people with BOD (especially mothers), the loss of there children would be especially difficult to take. If there disorder was based on abandonment and being alone, I cannot think of something more difficult to deal with than not being able to see your kids (or to see them very little like 2 hours per week).

This is why I originally believed what KateCat wrote: that loosing your kids could be the rock bottom that many people with BPD/Alcoholism need to clean up there lives.

The problem I have experienced with my wife is that instead of reflecting on this and feeling the guilt / shame it entails, she has done the absolute opposite. She has fallen head over heals in love with some new guy in 5 weeks and is partying like its 1999!  Indeed some of what she has told me is she is ready to give up on the kids so she could be with her new man and fun times. This is something I had never envisioned. Indeed, I still wonder if this is just  the initial outer shell of her emotions showing and that deep down inside there are deeper feelings that will come to the surface when the final decision is rendered by the court and it finally sinks in to her psyche. Maybe part of my problem is that I am thinking logically and people with BPD don't think logically.

Any inputs is always appreciated.

[KateCat]

confused,

I am way out of my depth in even commenting on this, but I notice that you are having great dialogue with waverider over on the "Staying" boards and putting a lot of effort into comprehending your wife and her emotions. In most situations that effort would pay off in spades, but I wonder whether you might be better off--just at this critical time, mind you--in drawing back, drawing boundaries, not communicating with your wife or offering her additional opportunities to see her children. If she feels you and the kids are a permanent Plan B for her, if and when she's ready, will she be able to face the fact that she has a stark choice to make, right now?

If you and the kids seem to be "gone" from her life--just at this critical time--wouldn't the party with the new guy come to an end more quickly?

[confusedhubby]

Hi Katecat. Thanks for your input. It is much appreciated.

Yes, I agree with you completely and this is why kids and I have gone LC to NC. Basically we have very little contact if any.

She on the other hand has been coming around to my family and friends telling everyone how great her life is with the new guy. I think she may be trying to bait me and make me feel jealous which I will not do. Basically I am focused on myself and he children.

[KateCat]

I used to work in a government "family support" office. Although none of the workers there used the term "dead beat dad" or "dead beat mom" openly, you could  literally feel the contempt people had for the mothers who had fallen so far that they had landed in that category. As they walked through the massive office, these poor women must surely have felt they were doing the "perp walk."

Most likely shame and stress are going to be more present in her life now and in her relationship with the new boyfriend. You mention elsewhere that your wife has accused you of being abusive. (If you're an abusive man, I'll eat my hat!) waverider and others have explained the feeling = facts concept. If you explore this idea, you may see how the new relationship will be under great strain and may collapse in a matter of weeks or months.

It's a good idea to work hard on yourself now in order to prepare for that moment and what you will do when it comes.

[papawapa]

Don't put any stock into believing that she will ride off into the sunset to eternal happiness with your replacement.

When my pwBPD and I first separated she painted me blacker than black. When we had our first court appearance she asked the judge that I not be allowed to contact her. Her new found "happiness" lasted about six weeks. She got drunk, had an argument with him, painted him black for the first time and showed up at her daughters house in the middle of the night.

About a month ago I took a new job. When she found out through the kids about it she started talking to me again. This past Monday she sent me a text telling me that she needed somewhere to go. Later that night she had to cal the cops on the replacement. Her new relationship is already eroding at a much faster pace than her and mine did.

Ike others have suggested, shut her out, let her be, and her new found "happiness" will fade as her true self comes to the surface.

[confusedhubby]

@Katecat Thank you for your inputs. You are very wise. I think what you said may very well happen. I have removed myself from the equation and am as LC / NC as possible. I think this is the best way for her abandonment issues to come to the forefront with the new guy and hopefully it will make her think of her children / family and do the responsible thing.

[KateCat]

 , confused!

I feel pretty confident that this would be the course of action recommended by the folks at Alanon, should you attend their meetings. As I think dreamgirl has said, she would have to want treatment and recovery. If she's feeling powerful because two men are fighting over her, she may not feel the pain as quickly.