Any experiences from a long distance relationship with a BPD?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

About a year ago I broke up from my exBPDgf. We live in different cities circa 100 miles apart and we were dating for a couple of months. A few times we met in real life, and those were fantastic moments. Most of the time, however, we had contact mainly through online messaging, email and text messages. The plan was to have a long distance relationship where we could be together every second week. Online she was flirty sometimes, depressed sometimes, wonderful sometimes, pulled me to her sometimes, pushed me away sometimes, broke up with me a few times, punished me with a silent treatment for a while, there were plenty of quarrles and make ups and break ups. You get the picture. Finally I broke up with her before we entered a real long distance relationship.

Still I wonder what it would have been to have a long distance relationship with her.

Does anyone have any experiences of have a a long distance relationship with a BPD?

[Need2Know]

About a year ago I broke up from my exBPDgf. We live in different cities circa 100 miles apart and we were dating for a couple of months. A few times we met in real life, and those were fantastic moments. Most of the time, however, we had contact mainly through online messaging, email and text messages. The plan was to have a long distance relationship where we could be together every second week. Online she was flirty sometimes, depressed sometimes, wonderful sometimes, pulled me to her sometimes, pushed me away sometimes, broke up with me a few times, punished me with a silent treatment for a while, there were plenty of quarrles and make ups and break ups. You get the picture. Finally I broke up with her before we entered a real long distance relationship.

Still I wonder what it would have been to have a long distance relationship with her.

Does anyone have any experiences of have a a long distance relationship with a BPD?

[allweareisallweare]

Yes. My entire situation was a BPD-LDR narrative. The person lived 1000 miles away, I would see her, she me. Amazingly, probably because we weren't physically in the same country all of the time, we last five and a half years, then cue BPD apocalypse. 

What happens then is the relationship relies on contact - and towards the end I wasn't being afforded it - she claimed not to have any time for me whilst having a rebound ready - Borderline behavior.

It is helped by social networking- Facebook - where interaction is necessary/can be achieved, but this has its own drawbacks (i.e the Borderline misinterpreting things) and these can lead to so many bad scenes as they did for me/us.

LDR are hard, difficult when a person is mentally not on your wavelength (i.e not empathetic at all; prone to jealousy) etc etc

[UmbrellaBoy]

Mine three-and-a-half-year involvement (only an "official" relationship at the very end; he loved the involvement but hated the idea of conceding the label to describe the de facto reality) was long-distance for the first year-and-a-half, and the last year. During the "middle year" I actually moved to Canada from the US to be near him and to give him an option after he moved in with his then-boyfriend in what seemed like a hasty and ill-thought-out move given that the month prior to their move-in saw him provoke a crisis whereby he basically cheated with me when I came to visit and said he felt trapped with the boyfriend. At the time, making this move felt brave and bold and like I was a superhero. Looking back, it comes off rather desperate on my part. But, it did "save" things for us. He broke up with the boyfriend and then our involvement continued two more years, so it was "worth it." But things fell apart in the last year, I had to go home after a year for visa reasons, and I'm always forced to wonder "What would it have been like if we had had more time in person to explore our relationship?" (things were very tentative during that year because the ex was still living with him). Visits became more and more fraught. He'd try to cut me off, I'd manage to negotiate "one more visit," there'd be a period of no contact followed by him getting in touch to reconcile, promising a new good visit, only to freak out as it approached (because there were always implications that the visits would be the time to "seal the deal" again... .)

[numb_buddha]

Mine was long distance. We did the dance for about a year. I actually felt it was deeper than any relationship I'd been in while in the flesh, but that due to the constant highs and lows I was going through, desperately trying to "break on through to the other side."

It actually made it very difficult. If you were in person and they were withdrawing from you in another room, that would be it's own kind of hell but at least you'd know they were okay. When it comes to withdrawing online, it adds a new dimension and you start ruminating over all of the possibilities. The longest she shut me out when together was one week, and by the end of it I was made out to be stalkerish and obsessed when I would text her every couple of days to see how she was doing.

Sadly, the only way anyone can be in a "relationship" with someone suffering from BPD who is not in long term treatment is to be unavailable and elusive, yourself. Once you realize that detaching from the idea of having a relationship is the only way you can HAVE a relationship with them, the dream has died. It's a sad day when we realize there is no having a real, intimate relationship with this person who we spent so much energy trying to know and love. What a sad, miserable, dare I say, evil, disorder.

[SweetCharlotte]

My uBPDh lives 400 miles away. We've been "together" four years, married for three and a half. He walks out on me or goes into hiding when he is in the push-away part of his cycle. It's either been getting worse or I am less willing to keep going through it. You're welcome to read my back posts to get an idea of my private hell.

[redbaron5]

Yes, Mine was LD for a year, we were together and lived in a house in las Vegas for 3 years, she had to move to colorado to help her family for a year. I drove up there once a month and flew once a month as wel, So I was there twice a month. I met all her new friends and everything seemed ok, Although there was some seemingly distance from her and projecting, also a choice few times she didn't introduce me to someone as her Fiancee. Red flags right? Well after a year of going up there and getting to know everyone very well Her friends pull me aside and give me the "Your way to cool of a guy to not know the truth" speech.  You guessed it, she slept with no less than 10+ other guys, and a couple of them were her close guy friends, they said they didn't really know me at first but felt so horrible after getting to know me the more I visited.  I still laugh when I was trying to have serious, adult conversations with her  "Why didn't you introduce me to those guys we ran into?"    her response  ":)on't be a jealous ass! It says we are in a relationship on facebook, everyone knows you!"  "You think there is a conspiracy against you or something!"  Turns out there was,   What a joke... .

[redbaron5]

I think the Long distance relationship with a BPD can't be a monogamous one, I think they are too desperate to fill their void and have to seek validation with the closest guy to them.  That and object constancy is a recipe for infidelity. It was in my case anyway.

[Ironmanrises]

Mine was a LDR too.

You can read my many posts.

I don't know if she cheated on me.

I do know her attention shifted to her BFF... .

And mother... .

And other a$$holes.

[Escaped 30.Sept.2013]

Mine was a LDR too - 500 miles.

He contacted me through Facebook, 19 years after a college whirlwind romance that ended when he left without his degree. I had enough sense to ignore friend-requests for 18 months, but then I believed his tale of having changed, got sober, been in therapy... .

And in 15 months, he managed 3 nights with me and one lunch. All of which I travelled 500 miles for.

In 3 months, he's managed 9 nights in two trips to another country where his New Victim lives.

What drove me insane was the deliberate with-holding of contact in Facebook. You get the tick and timestamp so you KNOW he's read your message, you can see him commenting on friends' Walls, you can see new pics he posts, but why hasn't he rpelied to you, what did you do wrong?

Eventually, after the six months 'heaven' (which only had 3 brief with-holding, just 1-3 days each), he defriended and blocked me. We switched to email. Eventually to email and phone. Finally met for lunch. Got back together. Arranged a weekend (which mysteriously went from 3 nights to 1 night by his decision). He unblocked me on FB. Eventually in late May he re-friended me on FB. 3 weeks later he flew abroad to "she's just some dumb woman, she's just one of Y's facebook-friend". Two weeks later I had a double bereavement, and he rushed to be looking after me online.

Online, he was there the whole time. For two months he was online every night, looking after me, explaining how fragile I was, gaslighting til I believed I wasn't coping, wasn't making any progress with my trauma. My friends didn't understand enough to help me, my parents didn't care, I had the wrong kind of therapist - only my ex could help me, he kept explaining, only HE knew me so well that he could help me, only I understood him, we had this special bond, this link stretching back all his life... .

Then he went abroad again, this time for a week.

By this time I actually didn't even believe he'd gone. I could believe he would lie to pretend he was being unfaithful - that had actually become more plausible (and less hurtful!) than that he could sleep with someone else whilst endlessly pouring all this love onto me.

I severed contact on Sept 1st. He sent messages, angry on Sept 1/2nd; then "I'm so worried about you, please for god's sake just let me know you're alive" on Sept 7th. Then silence while he was abroad 11-17th Sept. Then Sept 19th, he's so worried, please stop doing this to me, I love you. Then Sept 30th, five emails, ending with a long one about how he has never stopped loving me, has always loved me, dismissing "other people" as facile, it's only me, has always only been me.

At which point I contacted the New Victim directly to ask her what was going on, so that I could at least know for sure and move on with my life.

He went ballistic, and now I have not only severed contact from me, but taken steps to block contact from him.

So the last three months of it were serious gaslighting.

Efforts to alienate me from my family and friends and therapist... .

Efforts to convince me he loves me above all, whilst he was presumably mirroring the New Victim to draw her in.

I don't understand why he put so much effort into mirroring me, at the end. He had the New Victim lined up and suckered already, so why did he need to be trying to convince me he still loves me above her?

If anyone can explain that, I'd be grateful. It's the sole thing that I haven't seen told by many, many others in here. He spent hours, every night, mirroring almost to the extent that he did in our first six months. For two months, nearly all his spare time, reassuring me, mirroring away like anything... .then the month I was silent to him, I can get that he responded to my being silent by throwing out crumbs.

But that two months puzzles me... .

Facebook is a BPD-charter. It gives them total freedom to mirror with words, without ever having to check that their alibis match.

[Bach Cantatas]

I think the Long distance relationship with a BPD can't be a monogamous one, I think they are too desperate to fill their void and have to seek validation with the closest guy to them.  That and object constancy is a recipe for infidelity. .

Mine too was a Long Distance Relationship and until it fell apart I was totally unaware of BPD and its influence. Having learned so much here subsequently and reflected upon what happened to me, I have to say that I agree with you fully.

[Escaped 30.Sept.2013]

Mine too was a Long Distance Relationship and until it fell apart I was totally unaware of BPD and its influence.

Yes - I'd only heard the term in passing, never in any personal way. It was desperate searching to find anything that could make sense of why he behaved in this bizarre and contradictory and confusing way that led me to this forum.

Thank God... .

[redbaron5]

Mine too was a Long Distance Relationship and until it fell apart I was totally unaware of BPD and its influence. Having learned so much here subsequently and reflected upon what happened to me, I have to say that I agree with you fully.

Yep, Mine was literally calling me from other Mens bathrooms probably 10 minutes after having sex with them telling me how much she loved and Missed me. My BPD just couldn't handle being alone. When all was said and done and I confronted her about it she said she didn't even like the guys, It was just about casual sex. BPD lingo for "I needed them to validate me and make me feel wanted" and most of the guys she hooked up with I just have to shake my head at, I had met most of them on my trips to see my exBPDgf, some of them were fast food clerks, ect...   to quote Sam Rothstein from the movie casino; "The Ginger I knew wouldn't even take a second look at these guys" But with BPD, it doesnt matter, attention is attention, and Sex is a great void filler for most of them.

[Escaped 30.Sept.2013]

When all was said and done and I confronted her about it she said she didn't even like the guys, It was just about casual sex. BPD lingo for "I needed them to validate me and make me feel wanted" and most of the guys she hooked up with I just have to shake my head at,

Yep - even with my self-esteem eroded beyond its usual low levels, one of the things I just couldn't understand with my replacement was why he would go to her.

Even I could see she has a face like a boot, is incredibly unsympathetic, frankly pretty stupid, and fails to get his sense of humour.

In fact, that last one really really makes me feel good. I still love my ex, and wish there was some magic wand to make him healthy so I could be with him again - but that ain't gonna happen... .

But at least I know he is, on a daily basis, having his Facebook wit punctured by someone saying flatly, "I don't get it". And his Facebook-facade is very, very much based on carefully maintaining a reputation as just the funniest, wittiest man in the world.

Nothing ruins a carefully-crafted witty status more than someone commenting straightaway, "I don't get it."

Unless it's the way he gives a long explanation of why that juxtaposition of X and Y is amusing, after which she comments "No, I still don't see anything funny. I'm just glad I'm alive "


So that kinda cheers me up some :D

:D

[Century2012]

My relationship with my exBPD became long-distance after the first 4 months. The phone calls and letters kept the fairy dust alive. When he returned, reality hit. I realized I was in love with "love," not the actual person. Which made it hurt even more, because I had lived in fairy dust land so long.

I think long-distance relationships can be more difficult for any one. The longing feels like love. And they lack the day to day reality that allows one the perspective.

[peas]

My BPD r/s was long distance (300 miles) for six of the seven months we were together. I had to move for a job. My god what a stressful time in my life. I suffered a double-loss: loss of my community and loss of my boyfriend.

I did not know about BPD until we broke up in June. During the "recycles" I started looking up emotional and verbal abuse sites and alcoholism sites -- as those all were traits of our r/s. Then I found BPD and it started to make sense. Especially with the abandonment and attachment issues. LDRs are a death sentence for BPD r/s's.

He put a massive amount of guilt on me for moving for work. He was unemployed but refused to move with me. That was fine because that was his prerogative and didn't expect him to drop everything and radically change his life for me, so I made it my duty to drive to him nearly every weekend. Some weekends were wonderful, some were awful. He also used to have panic attacks about me or the r/s right before I would visit. He would try to sabotage everything, and I would ignore it because I knew he would calm down soon after my arrival.

He was also conditional: Nearly every week he would tell me "If you loved me, you would be here with me." Meaning I would quit my new, well-paying job (I had been unemployed for a year!) and move back to our city. He said I was "greedy" and "selfish." I kept telling him I intended to return to our city after putting in some time at my new job. He didn't appreciate or trust when I said it was a temporary arrangement and he and I would be together full time sooner than later. He just couldn't wait. Or didn't want to.

After a while, me not being local was one huge trigger on the man and he pushed away. During idealization in the first four months, he wanted to marry me, have kids together, buy a house. Even spoke of moving to my new city. But he was so full of fantasy.

He also broke up with me like every five weeks and I assumed he meant it each time, but he would return within days saying how much he loved me and wanted our r/s to work even if we're apart.

What upsets me is he dumped me for good after he got a job. I stood by him for months, spent time and money on weekend visits, while he was unemployed. Then he gets a job and decides we're done. I suspect he also was turning to other women locally around this time because my weekend visits became increasingly stressful for him. He started picking more fights. And during the week he didn't want to talk on the phone. It was usually shallow text messages.

One important thing I noticed: He showed me inconsistent behavior before I moved. Even though we started out in the same city and the LDR dynamics were not yet present, I recall him in our first month together he was doing a mild form of push/pull.

[Ironmanrises]

My BPD r/s was long distance (300 miles) for six of the seven months we were together. I had to move for a job. My god what a stressful time in my life. I suffered a double-loss: loss of my community and loss of my boyfriend.

I did not know about BPD until we broke up in June. During the "recycles" I started looking up emotional and verbal abuse sites and alcoholism sites -- as those all were traits of our r/s. Then I found BPD and it started to make sense. Especially with the abandonment and attachment issues. LDRs are a death sentence for BPD r/s's.

He put a massive amount of guilt on me for moving for work. He was unemployed but refused to move with me. That was fine because that was his prerogative and didn't expect him to drop everything and radically change his life for me, so I made it my duty to drive to him nearly every weekend. Some weekends were wonderful, some were awful. He also used to have panic attacks about me or the r/s right before I would visit. He would try to sabotage everything, and I would ignore it because I knew he would calm down soon after my arrival.

He was also conditional: Nearly every week he would tell me "If you loved me, you would be here with me." Meaning I would quit my new, well-paying job (I had been unemployed for a year!) and move back to our city. He said I was "greedy" and "selfish." I kept telling him I intended to return to our city after putting in some time at my new job. He didn't appreciate or trust when I said it was a temporary arrangement and he and I would be together full time sooner than later. He just couldn't wait. Or didn't want to.

After a while, me not being local was one huge trigger on the man and he pushed away. During idealization in the first four months, he wanted to marry me, have kids together, buy a house. Even spoke of moving to my new city. But he was so full of fantasy.

He also broke up with me like every five weeks and I assumed he meant it each time, but he would return within days saying how much he loved me and wanted our r/s to work even if we're apart.

What upsets me is he dumped me for good after he got a job. I stood by him for months, spent time and money on weekend visits, while he was unemployed. Then he gets a job and decides we're done. I suspect he also was turning to other women locally around this time because my weekend visits became increasingly stressful for him. He started picking more fights. And during the week he didn't want to talk on the phone. It was usually shallow text messages.

One important thing I noticed: He showed me inconsistent behavior before I moved. Even though we started out in the same city and the LDR dynamics were not yet present, I recall him in our first month together he was doing a mild form of push/pull.

In bold.

I experienced that too... .

In both rounds.

She would only text... .

At the end.

No phone.

[Escaped 30.Sept.2013]

And during the week he didn't want to talk on the phone. It was usually shallow text messages.

In bold.

I experienced that too... .

In both rounds.

She would only text... .

At the end.

No phone.

Can we get the techies to put a "Snap! Me too! Same here!" button on this forum?

We would talk on the phone "tomorrow"... .five mins before the arranged time, he'd text "so tired, [petname] can we talk tmw?" and guess what happened next day? I once counted up twelve consecutive days in which an arranged phonecall was postponed within five minutes of the time... .

[peas]

We would talk on the phone "tomorrow"... .five mins before the arranged time, he'd text "so tired, [petname] can we talk tmw?" and guess what happened next day? I once counted up twelve consecutive days in which an arranged phonecall was postponed within five minutes of the time... .

Yep, I got the "I fell asleep" excuse. Then I would check his social media activity and he was posting or online during his "sleep."

[Escaped 30.Sept.2013]

Yep, I got the "I fell asleep" excuse. Then I would check his social media activity and he was posting or online during his "sleep."

Snap! Me too! Same here!



I think he genuinely thought, if he didn't post on our mutual friends' walls, I didn't see any activity of his. Maybe because with his fifty-gazillion FB friends, he never really bothered with hsi news feed... .where I only have people I actually know as FB-friends, and so I check my 'Close Friends' list news feed often... .which duly showed up all his comments on the Walls of people he doesn't know, people he once worked with, people he'd been on a 2-week course with twelve years ago, etc., etc.

"I was asleep"... .no, you sodding weren't!

[Ironmanrises]

And during the week he didn't want to talk on the phone. It was usually shallow text messages.

In bold.

I experienced that too... .

In both rounds.

She would only text... .

At the end.

No phone.

Can we get the techies to put a "Snap! Me too! Same here!" button on this forum?

We would talk on the phone "tomorrow"... .five mins before the arranged time, he'd text "so tired, [petname] can we talk tmw?" and guess what happened next day? I once counted up twelve consecutive days in which an arranged phonecall was postponed within five minutes of the time... .

In bold.

Me too.

I remember actually trying to call her once... .

In that silent treatment phase... .

In round 2... .

She answered... .

Voice breaking apart... .

"I cant talk... ."

Half hour later... .

A text... .

"Im going to sleep. Nai nai baby"

That is her pet name for saying night night... .

Childlike... .

I know.

In true BPD fashion.

I would go on facebook... .

And she would still be active... .

My whole facebook/instagram experience... .

After 2 rounds of this... .

Has been completely tainted.

I cant even look at a coworkers screen... .

When they try and show me some status or pic... .

On either social site... .

I instantly remember her... .

And this nightmare.

[DragoN]

Does anyone have any experiences of have a a long distance relationship with a BPD?

From the perspective of the BPD in my jaded opinion, it's probably great. New supply. Concepts of loyalty and fidelity don't exist for them.

[Need2Know]

Hi Ironmanfalls,

Your posts are so poetic. Are you a poet or an author maybe?

We have unfriended each other on Facebook but my exBPDgf is still friend with some of my friends on Facebook. Sometimes when she comments on their posts I see her photo. When I see her pretty face (she looks like a supermodel) it feels like a knife being stabbed in my chest. Still after one year after the breakup I can feel that happening.

[Ironmanrises]

Needtoknow 

Thank you for your kind words.

I have been asked that before on here... .(You fellow nons are really nice) 

I am not a poet or a writer.

I am an artist(draw peoples portraits... .In remission due to after effects of this)... .

I write like this... .

Because i like things to be in order... .

And my thoughts are laid out as if i was drawing... .

Makes it easier to read.

Hang in there.

I have a half finished portrait of my exUBPDgf... .

I cant even look at it.

Pains me.

I know how you feel.

[Escaped 30.Sept.2013]

We have unfriended each other on Facebook but my exBPDgf is still friend with some of my friends on Facebook. Sometimes when she comments on their posts I see her photo. When I see her pretty face (she looks like a supermodel) it feels like a knife being stabbed in my chest. Still after one year after the breakup I can feel that happening.

If you want to stop that... .

- as well as defriending, you want to block her. That means you can not view her Wall (if you search on her name it says 'Page broken or unavailable' and you don't see it). Also, it means she can NEVER message you. You will be unable to see any comments she makes on mutual friends' walls. The most you will ever be aware of is if a mutual friend replies to her comments, you'll only see your mutual friend's side of the conversation. This can hurt a bit, suddenly reading your mutual friend saying "haha, [name], you're so funny! " but it's healthier in the long run - trust me on this!

To block someone on FB, go to Account Settings and one of the options on the left is "blocking".

- go to 'messages' and go to your messaging history with her (or get a friend to do this for you, even better). Click on "archive" and the conversation is moved out of sight; it can only be brought back to inbox where you see it, by a new message being posted (which cannot happen as you have now blocked her) or by using the search box.

- finally, for a while at least, drop all your mutual friends off your news feed so you simply don't have their photos or comments or statuses brought up to you. There may be a centralised place to do this, but in my case what I did was simply switch my browser's "FB" bookmark so that when I open FB it automatically opens my 'Close friends' news feed only, and I removed all the mutual friends for the time being.


Trust me, it really really helps.

[Need2Know]

Hi Escaped 30.Sept.2013,

Thanks for your advice. The need for blocking her has actually decreased lately. Nowadays she is mainly "liking" some of my friends' comments or posts, she is not commenting on them that often anymore. When she makes a comment it is usually practical messages like: "Yes, I come that event/party." That information is actually useful for me, because then I know that I should avoid those events.

I have deleted all messages we sent to each other.

And you gave me an idea: I will avoid checking who liked my friend's comments - then there is little risk to see her face.

[happylogist]

I think they love LDR! It is a comfortable place for them.

LDR - with my ex for a year - crazy-making experience! Wont' wish it to my enemy!

He had for 6 years LDR before on and off with his ex gf, 2 - 3 months together, 2 - 3 months apart. Was a weird relationship I think  - not without a reason jealousy from her side, control and trust issues, him - encouraging her to flirt with others and looking for a third person to bring to bed. A bit like a complicated French movie - interesting to watch, but you do not really want to have it in your life.

Escaped 30.Sept.2013 (a perfect name!),

How did he react when you blocked him? I have some mutual friends and I do no want them to know about us, but I am afraid if I block him and he realizes that - he will start overreacting aggressively and badmouthing me. It is a bit professional and very gossipy environment of expats... .

[allweareisallweare]

Personally, as an afterthought, I would never enter a LDR again - like I say, it's not like I live in The States where I don't have to cross an ocean ( ) I am on a group of islands called Great Britain, she was somewhere in central Europe - I developed aviophobia when I was going back and forth, something which I tried to control by flying just to keep her happy, but in reality, I hated so much I took a thirty-five hour bus trip to circumnavigate at least three times (there, back so return) and in both winter and summer - the last time I saw her I flew there and back, so risked my phobia and had to deal with it to keep her happy for false reasons since - she wasn't worthy, ultimately.

LDR are bad things when you can't see a person, but I'll reiterate, with BPD they can be nightmares - I feel like I have woke up from a nightmare situation in one way - and yet I am living in another, harsher one right now.

[Afool]

I had something like this. My exBPD lived 200 miles from me. We were just like you. Talked on the computer constantly and everything was two seamlessly best friends. Well, I moved in with her. Let me tell you, that girl you 'knew' online, is not the same girl in real life. BPDs thrive off of texting and social media because it is the perfect way to have a mask on. Hell, I probably wasn't the same person either, didn't stop her when we got together and I moved to Las Vegas. I love my exBPD, ahem, I love the good side she had, but I also love prescription pills, and I'll be damned if I go back to using again. See where I'm coming from? Hang in there.

[Afool]

Also, you are going to have to shake that communication addiction. Facebook, texts, phone calls, all that stuff is addictive. It was hard for me to do, but block, delete, vanish from your life.

[DownandOut]

My relationship started in the same city, the BPD signs started to surface after a month-long honeymoon period and it ended. We get back together for another month-long honeymoon period, I meet her family and that's when she ran away again (I'm assuming it was because I got too close). We talked on and off for the next 2 years and I was recycled 5 months ago. We had a LDR for about 3 1/2 months and I think the distance made her very uneasy. The extreme jealousy is difficult to control when the person you supposedly "love" is 1000 miles away. She was supposed to move to my city and we had a date planned and everything; however, the closer we got to the date the more she would withdraw. Needless to say, I broke it off and I'm miserable. I wouldn't recommend a BPD relationship to anyone, but a LDR-BPD relationship might be worse.