A line in the sand.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

On my way to the city... .

I remembered the scene... .

From the movie Star Trek: First Contact... .

Where the Federation was under attack... .

By the Borg... .

A ruthless cyborg race.

And there was one quote... .

From Captain Picard... .

That struck me... .

And our collective experience... .

Here... .

"I will not sacrifice the Enterprise... .

We've made too many compromises already... .

Too many retreats... .

They invade our space and we fall back.

They assimilate entire worlds... .

And we fall back.

Not again.

The line must be drawn here... .!

This far... .

No further... .!"

Cliche... .?

Yes.

But within those words... .

Lies what we... .

Deal with.

With our exBPD partners... .

Our lack of self love... .

Mine included.

Self love... .

Would have drawn... .

That line in the sand... .

And said... .

It stops here... .

No further.

Had I loved myself enough... .

To put myself first... .

I would have... .

Been able to say that... .

Your actions... .

Your treatment of me... .

That stops here... .!

Here... .

And... .

No further... .!

I sacrificed... .

And compromised... .

Too much... .

By letting her return to me.

That line... .

Is drawn.

I will stand behind it.

Otherwise... .

She will annihilate me.

And I cannot do that... .

To myself... .

Anymore.

[Ironmanrises]

On my way to the city... .

I remembered the scene... .

From the movie Star Trek: First Contact... .

Where the Federation was under attack... .

By the Borg... .

A ruthless cyborg race.

And there was one quote... .

From Captain Picard... .

That struck me... .

And our collective experience... .

Here... .

"I will not sacrifice the Enterprise... .

We've made too many compromises already... .

Too many retreats... .

They invade our space and we fall back.

They assimilate entire worlds... .

And we fall back.

Not again.

The line must be drawn here... .!

This far... .

No further... .!"

Cliche... .?

Yes.

But within those words... .

Lies what we... .

Deal with.

With our exBPD partners... .

Our lack of self love... .

Mine included.

Self love... .

Would have drawn... .

That line in the sand... .

And said... .

It stops here... .

No further.

Had I loved myself enough... .

To put myself first... .

I would have... .

Been able to say that... .

Your actions... .

Your treatment of me... .

That stops here... .!

Here... .

And... .

No further... .!

I sacrificed... .

And compromised... .

Too much... .

By letting her return to me.

That line... .

Is drawn.

I will stand behind it.

Otherwise... .

She will annihilate me.

And I cannot do that... .

To myself... .

Anymore.

[DreamGirl]

Our lack of self love... .

Mine included.

Self love... .

Would have drawn... .

That line in the sand... .

And said... .

It stops here... .

No further.

That's a really good realization, IronMan.

I'm a Trekkie so I love this analogy.

Unfortunately, I'm a codependent Martyr too. Look at all these things I do for you and the sacrafices I've made. Why don't you love me? Why don't you appreciate me?

It took me a while to realize that I was picking men who not only didn't know how to love and respect me, they didn't think they really needed to. My self sacraficing was an expectation. It's just not how healthy relationships work but instead how dysfunctional ones do.

It was the vicious cycle of my own victimhood. Like you said about "self-love" I didn't truly believe I deserved any better (thanks to FOO issues) and therefore never drew any line in any sand.

I OK'd all the lying, cheating, demeaning, or whatever. It's all I knew - partially because I didn't even like myself all that much.

It really did start with me. Valuing me. Hardest thing I've ever done.  

Good stuff, IronMan.  

[Ironmanrises]

H2O... .

You are right.

It is absolutely necessary.

It has been absent... .

All my life.

All 36 years of my life.

No further.

Dream... .

Valid statements.

I am a Trekkie too. 

I allowed my line... .

To be criss crossed... .

At will.

At my own detriment.

My future self... .

Would disown me... .

If I continue... .

On that course.

Of course my exUBPGf... .

Treated me like sh¥t... .

I allowed it.

I didn't stand up... .

For myself.

I cowered... .

Within... .

My Ironman suit.

And hoped... .

Against all hope... .

That she would stop.

She stopped... .

All right.

That was when she... .

Discarded me.

No more.

I haven't been good to myself... .

And 2 rounds with her... .

Exemplified that very... .

Flaw... .

Within me.

[DreamGirl]

"Rumours of my assimilation have been greatly exagerrated" -- Picard

Your line drawing starts today, IronMan. 

What better day then today?

That's her gift to you, she was the catalyst to you learning to love yourself... .that's the best kept secret in this.

Hope and honoring yourself is your greatest weapon against this self loathing that so, so many of us suffer from.  I don't see it as a flaw. It's just needing better skills.

You are saying "enough". Right now. Just by being here, with us. You are honoring yourself. You are finding the reasons, the answers and you are trying to make your life better.

Inspiring others to do the same.

Look at you, drawing all kinds of lines.

[fiddlestix]

Self love, self respect... .some people grew up to think that was selfish, egotistical.  "Always think of others first," many of our religious instructors taught.  And we misunderstood and believed that meant that OUR NEEDS DON'T MATTER!  Nonsense!  Our needs do matter!  How can we possibly help others, our community, our world... .if our own tanks are empty? 

"Love others... .AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF!"

Fiddlestix

[Learning_curve74]

Sounds like you are standing up for yourself and looking out for yourself now, Ironman. Good for you! 

[hopealways]

It is so inspiring to see these type of posts which show, very clearly, progress, healing, and hope.  Keep it up! Proud of you.

[Oliolioxenfree]

Ironman, just by acknowledging that there needed to be a line drawn in the sand to begin with, you are ahead of the game.

Stick to your boundaries and treat yourself with love care trust and respect.  Others will follow suit by your example. 

Those who don't will fall by the wayside quickly you will see.

[Linlu53]

That was great! I'm not a Trekkie! But it makes we want to be!   thanks so much for sharing that! 35 plus years of marriage and I drew a line in the sand a few times, but each time I allowed my uBPDh to take his foot and brush it away. I felt like I needed to keep the peace, not make waves, keep the home together for my kids. The kids were out of the house and I realized there was no me left. We have to honor ourselves or we can't honor others. I left the house and drew another line. Got some help and when I returned my h remarkably has not crossed that line nearly as much or as severely as he has in the past. But I know I need to remain vigilant. Because with this illness, he'll do it if I let him!

[Ironmanrises]

I will reply to you guys... .

When I get out of this... .

Driving class... .

(Learning how to drive).

[Ironmanrises]

Fiddle... .

I was too concerned... .

Filling her tank... .

And others... .

While my own tank... .

Was constantly... .

Empty.

My care taking role... .

I have long been... .

Accustomed to... .

Has left me... .

Exposed... .

To this.

Learning... .

Yes.

I am still healing.

Hope... .

You are very inspirational too.

I am trying.

Olio... .

That acknowledgement... .

Has been... .

A painful process.

It originates... .

From my childhood.

Lin... .

Welcome.

35 years is a long time... .

You are brave... ,

For enduring that.

I know what you mean... .

By not creating waves... .

And keeping the peace.

It was the same... .

For me.

In round 2... .

I knew of her BPD... .

And I tried... .

So hard... .

To not create waves... .

That... .

The one wave... .

That was... .

Inevitable... .

The tsunami one... .

Created on the day... .

She was triggered... .

Was the one... .

That... .

Was inbound... .

And no amount... .

Of trying... .

Was going to keep... .

That one out.

And it came... .

As I long knew... .

And feared.

And wiped me out... .

Just the same.

No more waves for me.

I can't.

I just can't.

I draw my line... .

hit_____

Here.

No further.

Hang in there.

You are not alone.

[Ironmanrises]

I should have... .

Escaped... .

When i saw... .

The tsunami wave... .

Form... .

On the day she was triggered.

When it was... .

A speck... .

An ominous peak... .

On the horizon.

My failure... .

To do that... .

To watch out... .

For me... .

For my best interests... .

Means... .

I now see... .

Those waves... .

Everywhere.

And... .

I try and stay... .

On the high ground... .

Far away... .

From the destructive impact... .

Of such a wave.

My seclusion... .

In a way.

[GopherAgent]

Ironman... .

Such a good thought. I am now learning the value of drawing lines as I have allowed myself to be devalued and controlled by her madness. I am now starting to draw lines in the sand so as to protect myself and improve my health and release the compassionate and caring man that I know I am.

As DreamGirl says: "Hope and honoring yourself is your greatest weapon against this self loathing that so, so many of us suffer from." Thank you DreamGirl! How encouraging and true!

Since I "discovered" BPD I can now see the enormous ramifications of BPD on my 32 year relationship. I am beginning to now see what the games are and how I sacrificed my goodwill and compassion for her by becoming controlled and devalue by this disease. My perpetuation of the madness is disturbing. Something I am still coming to terms with. However, now that I am aware of it... .LINES!

I believe my "line" is not a single stroke though, but one that I am continuing to discover and draw as I face the enormity of this issue in my life. I am considering drawing mine so that at some point when it is finished, that the end of the line will connect with the starting point, so as to encircle me and protect me from the sneaky and perverse ways this illness tries to harm and hurt me when I am least aware of it. This way, if I am encircled by my line, I can somehow protect and preserve myself from all sides from the onslaught that may never end, allowing me to face the rest of my days in a healthy and productive way. After all, I still would like some woman to understand and love me for who I am and not what I am forced into being.

[hopealways]

I should have... .

Escaped... .

When i saw... .

The tsunami wave... .

Form... .

On the day she was triggered.

When it was... .

A speck... .

An ominous peak... .

On the horizon.

My failure... .

To do that... .

To watch out... .

For me... .

For my best interests... .

Means... .

I now see... .

Those waves... .

Everywhere.

And... .

I try and stay... .

On the high ground... .

Far away... .

From the destructive impact... .

Of such a wave.

My seclusion... .

In a way.

We all should have left when we first saw this, or at least the second time.  We knew there was something not right in their head, but could not get ourselves to imagine the possibility it was a mental illness.  Lesson learned. Life is full of lessons.  If we dwell on the pain and not learn the lessons we will never grow.  You are healing and growing Ironmanfalls.  Nice to see that.

[Ironmanrises]

Ironman... .

Such a good thought. I am now learning the value of drawing lines as I have allowed myself to be devalued and controlled by her madness. I am now starting to draw lines in the sand so as to protect myself and improve my health and release the compassionate and caring man that I know I am.

As DreamGirl says: "Hope and honoring yourself is your greatest weapon against this self loathing that so, so many of us suffer from." Thank you DreamGirl! How encouraging and true!

Since I "discovered" BPD I can now see the enormous ramifications of BPD on my 32 year relationship. I am beginning to now see what the games are and how I sacrificed my goodwill and compassion for her by becoming controlled and devalue by this disease. My perpetuation of the madness is disturbing. Something I am still coming to terms with. However, now that I am aware of it... .LINES!

I believe my "line" is not a single stroke though, but one that I am continuing to discover and draw as I face the enormity of this issue in my life. I am considering drawing mine so that at some point when it is finished, that the end of the line will connect with the starting point, so as to encircle me and protect me from the sneaky and perverse ways this illness tries to harm and hurt me when I am least aware of it. This way, if I am encircled by my line, I can somehow protect and preserve myself from all sides from the onslaught that may never end, allowing me to face the rest of my days in a healthy and productive way. After all, I still would like some woman to understand and love me for who I am and not what I am forced into being.

In bold.

Well described Gopher.

I can visualize that.

Your awareness... .

Of having to draw those lines... .

Is huge.

It will only help you.

Hang in there.

Hope... .

After round 1... .

I didnt take... .

Any really... .

Appropriate... .

Fundamental steps... .

To learn from that lesson.

Round 2... .

Woke me up to that... .

Completely.

Steps have been taken.

Round 3... .

Is not an option.

[hopealways]

"After round 1... .

I didnt take... .

Any really... .

Appropriate... .

Fundamental steps... .

To learn from that lesson.

Round 2... .

Woke me up to that... .

Completely.

Steps have been taken.

Round 3... .

Is not an option."

Round 1 - same with me

Round 2 - same with me

Round 3 - same with me and that means we ARE healing, introspecting, and will come out of this stronger than ever.

[LetItBe]

"After round 1... .

I didnt take... .

Any really... .

Appropriate... .

Fundamental steps... .

To learn from that lesson.

Round 2... .

Woke me up to that... .

Completely.

Steps have been taken.

Round 3... .

Is not an option."



Round 1 - same with me

Round 2 - same with me

Round 3 - same with me and that means we ARE healing, introspecting, and will come out of this stronger than ever.

Same here.  I'm fully awake now.  No Round 3.

[hopealways]

Great to hear that Letitbe! Time for us to stand up!

[Seashells]

And hoped... .

Against all hope... .

That she would stop.

So I wouldn't have to make her stop. 

I am a good person.  If I am a good person wouldn't this person recognize this value in me and follow the social and reciprocal norm healthy people follow in a loving relationship? 

This is what we do.  We are not strong against the disordered.  We want to be treated the way we treat others.  Our weakness is not wanting to have to assert ourselves and be confrontational because we want to love and give enough for others to see our value and give back.

We may have to learn to communicate better, to not be afraid to calmly express ourselves in positive ways.  That never was a problem for me, except when dealing with someone who would emotionally attack me for trying. 

I may have to assert myself.  I will never blame or beat myself up anymore because I have to in the face of the callous nature of another.

It is a learned task difficult for a gentle and empathetic heart.   There is no shame in this.

Great Thread!

[Ironmanrises]

Seashells... .

I wasnt able to assert myself... .

To a full capacity.

My continued staying... .

In such a relationship... .

Only highlighted my weakened... .

Position.

My eroded self esteem.

My Ironman suit... .

Riddled... .

With holes... .

And ripped apart metal.

It pains me... .

To remember this.

That i allowed myself... .

To be so shabbily treated.

[DragoN]

SeaShells

I am a good person.  If I am a good person wouldn't this person recognize this value in me and follow the social and reciprocal norm healthy people follow in a loving relationship?

This is what we do.  We are not strong against the disordered.  We want to be treated the way we treat others.  Our weakness is not wanting to have to assert ourselves and be confrontational because we want to love and give enough for others to see our value and give back.

We may have to learn to communicate better, to not be afraid to calmly express ourselves in positive ways.  That never was a problem for me, except when dealing with someone who would emotionally attack me for trying.

Dealing with BPD, to assert yourself was only to invite worse abuse. To stand up for yourself, was to get hammered. Then I learned that walking away was not conceding defeat. Although to me, it will feel like defeat to not speak up for myself.

There is really no chance of an understanding or a meeting of minds with BPD. Empathy for their partner does not exist. If you are no longer there, it will not matter. I chose/ choose to lose myself in the smoke of my boundaries and remove myself completely from the chaos. We can heal, they can not. It still hurts.

[ucmeicu2]

There is really no chance of an understanding or a meeting of minds with BPD. Empathy for their partner does not exist. If you are no longer there, it will not matter. I chose/ choose to lose myself in the smoke of my boundaries and remove myself completely from the chaos. We can heal, they can not. It still hurts.

no empathy?  i think you're thinking of NPD or sociopath, something like that?  i don;t recall seeing "lack of empathy" as a symptom/critera for BPD.  i've personally seen pwBPD exhibit empathy.

and actually, they can get better.  they can heal.  research shows it.  in fact, even without treatment BPD dimishes greatly for most people as they age.  it is, from my research, primarily a mental illness of young women.

[DragoN]

The lack of empathy is towards the partner over time. You are correct though, they do have empathy, which is how they are able to snare us in. They can read us very well and that is how they are able to mirror. But, the mask drops over time. He had empathy at one time. Now? No. It's really cruel and deliberate. Sometimes so nice  and other times? Demonic.

I've read both, it gets better and/ or gets worse over time. IME? Worse. But hard to tell what was the crux of that as boundaries have played a very important role in that the abuses morphed into the more emotionally nasty sorts as opposed to the clear and obvious ones. The posts of people that have lived with the PD mate for 20+ years? Are not convincing to me to try the longer haul route and hope for change.

Research shows improvement for the low functioning self harming, but have yet to see how it affects intimacy in the r/s , maybe it helps? From what I can tell, BPD is under reported for males. The disorder is also often co morbid with other PD traits and covered up with substance abuse. Becomes a chicken and egg situation at some point I would guess.

[Seashells]

Seashells... .

I wasnt able to assert myself... .

To a full capacity.

My continued staying... .

In such a relationship... .

Only highlighted my weakened... .

Position.

My eroded self esteem.

My Ironman suit... .

Riddled... .

With holes... .

And ripped apart metal.

It pains me... .

To remember this.

That i allowed myself... .

To be so shabbily treated.

Neither was I able to assert myself friend.  I've spent  time on the Staying board and some on the Undecided.  I'm now flirting with whether I want to be posting on the Leaving Board.   (Not trying to discount your pain)  It's an awful place to be and I'm certainly not laying blame on us who get here.  Just trying to look at what I need to do to avoid it again.   Journeying through trying to find meaning and answers myself as well.

The line you wrote, which I quoted earlier resonated with me.  I didn't want to see the flags and I wanted to avoid having to realistically assess the potential for change or lack thereof in the future of the relationship.

I'm evaluating things now.  I can see where I avoided being assertive (I don't mean in an aggressive way) and avoided addressing things in many relationships (I was afraid it would be viewed as confrontational to others).   I'm learning I'm not so comfortable expressing my needs with certain people. 

That was my point.  I've never been "comfortable" dealing with someone who didn't treat me well.  I was never comfortable around someone whom I had to "protect my own best emotional  interests" from because they wouldn't "play fair".   I'm not saying we should be comfortable with people like that, but I think it's healthy to know how to assert ourselves (again I don't necessarily mean in an aggressive way) and our needs to others overall.   

But part of me always wanted to fix those difficult people who made me a little uncomfortable.  Like if I could be kind enough they'd see the light somehow.      I don't even think that in itself is such a bad thing, so long as our self esteem isn't  "hooked" into the outcome.   I don't know if that makes sense to others going through this, it's something I'm looking at in myself.

I wish you healing friend.  It's a tough road.  As others have said before me, I think there's a gold mine of lessons for ourselves and our own happiness we may be able to learn and gain from the experience.

[Ironmanrises]

There is really no chance of an understanding or a meeting of minds with BPD. Empathy for their partner does not exist. If you are no longer there, it will not matter. I chose/ choose to lose myself in the smoke of my boundaries and remove myself completely from the chaos. We can heal, they can not. It still hurts.

no empathy?  i think you're thinking of NPD or sociopath, something like that?  i don;t recall seeing "lack of empathy" as a symptom/critera for BPD.  i've personally seen pwBPD exhibit empathy.

and actually, they can get better.  they can heal.  research shows it.  in fact, even without treatment BPD dimishes greatly for most people as they age.  it is, from my research, primarily a mental illness of young women.

Uceme... .

Therapy isnt a cure... .

For the pwBPD.

At most... .

It shortens... .

The episodes of dysregulation.

And this is after... .

Years of therapy.

Of committed participation... .

By the pwBPD... .

To willingly want... .

To get better... .

For themselves... .

First.

BPD is always present.

That they can heal... .?

Heal as in no further abusive behavior... .

Is launched at the non... .?

Please read the staying board.

You will see... .

That for the relationship... .

To stay afloat... .

The non has to make changes... .

To accommodate the pwBPD.

Accommodate as in... .

Absorb further abuse.

Lack of empathy... .?

The empathy is present... .

But is transitory.

From point A to... .

Point B in time.

It is present from start... .

Of idealization... .

Until the day if trigger.

Then it vanishes.

The other side... .

Of the pwBPD... .

Does not display empathy.

Sure... .

There may be scattered cases... .

Of a pwBPD actually getting better.

But define better... .

Better as in... .

Do they return to the partner/s... .

Whom they have destroyed... .

And willingly acknowledge... .

Their part in the destruction... .

That originates... .

From their behavior... .?

Again... .

I dont mean to come at you... .

With this... .

Apologies if it comes across... .

Like that.

I respect your compassion... .

For the BPD sufferer.

I have the same compassion.

I know they are suffering.

But that compassion... .

Has a line... .

That cannot be crossed... .

When... .

It involves... .

The emotional destruction... .

Of another person.

Look at all the accounts on this forum.

It is all... .

People who have suffered... .

As a direct result... .

Of a pwBPD.

I tried so hard... .

To have understanding... .

Empathy... .

Compassion... .

For my exUBPDgf.

Where was her compassion... .

Where was her empathy... .

Where was her understanding... .

In return... .

For me... .

The very person... .

Who only tried to love her... .?

Is she sitting in front of her computer... .

On a BPDsufferer forum... .

And asking herself... .

Why am i doing this... .?

Why did i hurt Ironmanfalls... .

In such a manner... .

Not once... .

But twice... .?

She isnt doing any of that.

She isnt taking any responsibility... .

In the consequences... .

That stem... .

Directly from her actions.

[DragoN]

That was my point.  I've never been "comfortable" dealing with someone who didn't treat me well.  I was never comfortable around someone whom I had to "protect my own best emotional  interests" from because they wouldn't "play fair".   I'm not saying we should be comfortable with people like that, but I think it's healthy to know how to assert ourselves (again I don't necessarily mean in an aggressive way) and our needs to others overall. 

Emotional safety is also the conundrum of the BPD. It's a painful disorder as at the core is a void. Why it even exists is often traumatic. Identity disturbances play a further role in the disorder. Levels of awareness of the impact of the disorder is also another entirely different spectrum.

But part of me always wanted to fix those difficult people who made me a little uncomfortable.  Like if I could be kind enough they'd see the light somehow.    cool   I don't even think that in itself is such a bad thing, so long as our self esteem isn't  "hooked" into the outcome.   I don't know if that makes sense to others going through this, it's something I'm looking at in myself.

Interesting thoughts, and perhaps looking into the mirror of your own BPD tendencies at the same time? Hooking the Self esteem into the outcome would be almost assuming poor boundaries and internalizing any negativity. That negativity you have no control over. Push/ pull , black/ white thinking. That is for the pwBPD to work on.

If your partner were to go into therapy as part of your boundaries, you may have a better chance. It's really painful to read the BPD support boards. Some truly struggle and others not. Their denial is too perfect.

[ucmeicu2]

Therapy isnt a cure... .For the pwBPD.At most... .It shortens... .The episodes of dysregulation.And this is after... .Years of therapy.Of committed participation... .By the pwBPD... .To willingly want... .To get better... .For themselves... .

First.BPD is always present.That they can heal... .?Heal as in no further abusive behavior... .Is launched at the non... .?Please read the staying board.You will see... .That for the relationship... .To stay afloat... .The non has to make changes... .To accommodate the pwBPD.Accommodate as in... .Absorb further abuse.

i haven't been to the staying board much but i do not believe, not in a million yrs, that accepting to be actively abused is part of ANY recommended mental health/therapy program.

you ask about "cure"... .i don't know, guess it depends on your definition of "cure"... .  i am not a mental health professional, but NAMI (national alliance on mental health) who i believe to be a reputable organization, says this:

www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By_Illness&Template=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=54&ContentID=44780

"The complex symptoms of the disorder often make patients difficult to treat and therefore may evoke feelings of anger and frustration in professionals trying to help, with the result that many professionals are often unwilling to make the diagnosis or treat persons with these symptoms.  These problems have been aggravated by the lack of appropriate insurance coverage for the extended psychosocial treatments that BPD usually requires.  Nevertheless, there has been much progress and success in the past 25 years in the understanding of and specialized treatment for BPD.  It is, in fact, a diagnosis that has a lot of hope for recovery."

so, a LOT of hope for RECOVERY!  if that is fact, then of what benefit is it for us to say things like "the pwBPD will never get better/never change/never be aware/never get the help they need/etc?"  (btw, "never" and "always" is black and white thinking which is classic BPD trait)  i see that plastered here at BPDfam a lot and it pains me.  it pains me b/c i know the person saying it is saying it b/c they are in PAIN and it also pains me b/c i know that kind of attitude hurts the pwBPD, especially the ones we Nons live with and the ones that are on this board, and even the Nons that are not DX'ed BPD but who do have BPD traits. 

IRONMAN SAID:

The other side... .Of the pwBPD... .Does not display empathy.Sure... .There may be scattered cases... .Of a pwBPD actually getting better.But define better... .Better as in... .Do they return to the partner/s... .Whom they have destroyed... .And willingly acknowledge... .Their part in the destruction... .That originates... .From their behavior... .?

UCMEICU2 SEZ:

well yes actually YES that can and does happen.  it happened to me.  my xBPD has had training in CBT, DBT, etc and yes she is a raving b*tch sometimes but she is also a human, and she has awareness and shows remorse.  YMMV of course!  BPD Dx must meet 5 of 9 criteria, which results ina potential of 256 "faces" of BPD!  so yeah, while there are similarieites there are also VAST dissimilarities in how they present. 

what i am doing is NOT "advocating" for pwBPD so much as advocating for Nons.  for healing, Nons really really really need to stop blaming the pwBPD for everything that went wrong in the r/s and start looking in the mirror.  but wait, thats not even my MAIN point.  main point is i really would like to see us be able to share our pain but also keep in mind the balance of presenting facts as facts, not emotions as facts.

IRONMAN SAID:

Again... .I dont mean to come at you... .

With this... .Apologies if it comes across... .Like that.I respect your compassion... .For the BPD sufferer.I have the same compassion.I know they are suffering.But that compassion... .Has a line... .That cannot be crossed... .When... .It involves... .The emotional destruction... .Of another person.Look at all the accounts on this forum.It is all... .People who have suffered... .As a direct result... .Of a pwBPD.

UCMEICU2 SEZ:

no worries, i dont feel you're coming at me at all.  i enjoy the banter, the exchange of ideas and knowledge.  and i would never suggest that anyone stay in a destructive r/s.  i would suggest however, is it true that we suffered as a direct result of a pwBPD?  or did we suffer b/c of our own actions/behaviors?  i mean "emotional destruction" is something that usually takes a long amount of time, eh?  why did we allow it?  ... .but, even if the pwBPD could be said to be 100% responsible for our suffering while we were in r/s w/them, can the same be said of the here and now?  the on-going suffering that comes from ruminating that goes on and on and on?  nah, we are causing our own suffering now.  well, lemme speak for me, i am causing my own suffering now!

sorry this got so long, if ya got this far thanx! 

[ucmeicu2]

i think this excerpt from the BPDfam literature ~ and the author of "walking on eggshells" may say it better than me:

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a119.htm

"Inner-Directed Stage - Focus on Ones Self

Eventually, family members look inward and conduct an honest appraisal of themselves. It takes two people to have a relationship, and the goal for family members in this stage is to better understand their role in making the relationship what it now is. The objective here is not self-recrimination, but insight and self-discovery."

this is the phase i'm spending most of my time in these days...   i was in the anger stage for a lonnnng time, believe me!  but i kept it going for waaaay too long and got so burned out on it... .

but if it sounded like i've ever suggested anything other than "insight and self-discovery" i do apologize.

[Ironmanrises]

Therapy isnt a cure... .For the pwBPD.At most... .It shortens... .The episodes of dysregulation.And this is after... .Years of therapy.Of committed participation... .By the pwBPD... .To willingly want... .To get better... .For themselves... .

First.BPD is always present.That they can heal... .?Heal as in no further abusive behavior... .Is launched at the non... .?Please read the staying board.You will see... .That for the relationship... .To stay afloat... .The non has to make changes... .To accommodate the pwBPD.Accommodate as in... .Absorb further abuse.

i haven't been to the staying board much but i do not believe, not in a million yrs, that accepting to be actively abused is part of ANY recommended mental health/therapy program.

you ask about "cure"... .i don't know, guess it depends on your definition of "cure"... .  i am not a mental health professional, but NAMI (national alliance on mental health) who i believe to be a reputable organization, says this:

www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By_Illness&Template=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=54&ContentID=44780

"The complex symptoms of the disorder often make patients difficult to treat and therefore may evoke feelings of anger and frustration in professionals trying to help, with the result that many professionals are often unwilling to make the diagnosis or treat persons with these symptoms.  These problems have been aggravated by the lack of appropriate insurance coverage for the extended psychosocial treatments that BPD usually requires.  Nevertheless, there has been much progress and success in the past 25 years in the understanding of and specialized treatment for BPD. It is, in fact, a diagnosis that has a lot of hope for recovery."

so, a LOT of hope for RECOVERY!  if that is fact, then of what benefit is it for us to say things like "the pwBPD will never get better/never change/never be aware/never get the help they need/etc?"  (btw, "never" and "always" is black and white thinking which is classic BPD trait)  i see that plastered here at BPDfam a lot and it pains me.  it pains me b/c i know the person saying it is saying it b/c they are in PAIN and it also pains me b/c i know that kind of attitude hurts the pwBPD, especially the ones we Nons live with and the ones that are on this board, and even the Nons that are not DX'ed BPD but who do have BPD traits. 

IRONMAN SAID:

The other side... .Of the pwBPD... .Does not display empathy.Sure... .There may be scattered cases... .Of a pwBPD actually getting better.But define better... .Better as in... .Do they return to the partner/s... .Whom they have destroyed... .And willingly acknowledge... .Their part in the destruction... .That originates... .From their behavior... .?

UCMEICU2 SEZ:

well yes actually YES that can and does happen.  it happened to me.  my xBPD has had training in CBT, DBT, etc and yes she is a raving b*tch sometimes but she is also a human, and she has awareness and shows remorse.  YMMV of course! BPD Dx must meet 5 of 9 criteria, which results ina potential of 256 "faces" of BPD!  so yeah, while there are similarieites there are also VAST dissimilarities in how they present. 

what i am doing is NOT "advocating" for pwBPD so much as advocating for Nons.  for healing, Nons really really really need to stop blaming the pwBPD for everything that went wrong in the r/s and start looking in the mirror.  but wait, thats not even my MAIN point.  main point is i really would like to see us be able to share our pain but also keep in mind the balance of presenting facts as facts, not emotions as facts.

IRONMAN SAID:

Again... .I dont mean to come at you... .

With this... .Apologies if it comes across... .Like that.I respect your compassion... .For the BPD sufferer.I have the same compassion.I know they are suffering.But that compassion... .Has a line... .That cannot be crossed... .When... .It involves... .The emotional destruction... .Of another person.Look at all the accounts on this forum.It is all... .People who have suffered... .As a direct result... .Of a pwBPD.

UCMEICU2 SEZ:

no worries, i dont feel you're coming at me at all.  i enjoy the banter, the exchange of ideas and knowledge.  and i would never suggest that anyone stay in a destructive r/s.  i would suggest however, is it true that we suffered as a direct result of a pwBPD?  or did we suffer b/c of our own actions/behaviors?  i mean "emotional destruction" is something that usually takes a long amount of time, eh?  why did we allow it?  ... .but, even if the pwBPD could be said to be 100% responsible for our suffering while we were in r/s w/them, can the same be said of the here and now?  the on-going suffering that comes from ruminating that goes on and on and on?  nah, we are causing our own suffering now.  well, lemme speak for me, i am causing my own suffering now!

sorry this got so long, if ya got this far thanx! 

In bold/underlined.

Hope for recovery... .

And actual recovery... .

Are 2 vastly different things.

We can all hope to find a cure for x disease... .

Is a lot different then... .

That medicine found for x disease... .

Has actually been proven to cure the disease.

See the difference... .?

I get what you are saying.

Professionals themselves... .

Do not like treating pwBPD.

That in itself is telling.

If such a recovery was so effective... .

The above Professionals... .

Would not have such a difficult time... .

With such patients.

See the difference... .?

In bold.

Yes.

256 different ways for it to present itself.

Agreed.

And once that presents itself... .

One outcome.

The non is destroyed in the process... .

Emotionally/mentally.

This forum exists... .

Because of that one outcome.

Every account on here... .

A grim reminder of that.

Destruction of the non... .

Does not need to happen over a long period of time.

The emotional abuse... .

From the pwBPD... .

In a short relationship... .

Is just as harmful.

I don't pin all the blame on my UBPDgf.

I accept my role in it.

As I am sure... .

A lot of the non's on here have done the same.

The pwBPD is not accepting... .

ANY of the responsibility... .

Of their role... .

In the very relationship... .

That they were... .

Just as much of a part as... .

As the non.

Where does that acceptance... .

That they do not accept... .

Go... .?

It falls back on the non.

100% responsibility for a relationship... .

That was between 2 people.

Not very fair.

It is no longer 50%.

That other 50% does not simply vanish.

It has to be accounted for.

The constant ruminations... .

Expressed on here... .

Myself included... .

Are tied in to that.

The non has to take full responsibility of the fallout... .

That they did not cause.

That is a pretty big bill... .

To pay.

Is it not... .?

I do get what you are saying though.

[DragoN]

ucmeicu2

Agree with your points. Especially my own role. Spent a lot of time staring in the mirror. 

It is, in fact, a diagnosis that has a lot of hope for recovery."

so, a LOT of hope for RECOVERY!  if that is fact, then of what benefit is it for us to say things like "the pwBPD will never get better/never change/never be aware/never get the help they need/etc?"  (btw, "never" and "always" is black and white thinking which is classic BPD trait)  i see that plastered here at BPDfam a lot and it pains me.  it pains me b/c i know the person saying it is saying it b/c they are in PAIN and it also pains me b/c i know that kind of attitude hurts the pwBPD, especially the ones we Nons live with and the ones that are on this board, and even the Nons that are not DX'ed BPD but who do have BPD traits.

I stayed and worked at the marriage because I had 'hope'. I don't blame him, for the failure at this point. I own that I no longer want to be in a one sided marriage. I have simple human needs as well. For too long, I ignored them. Simple basic things.

How many of those BPD traits are to be confused with C PTSD? Where to draw the line? Had he accepted therapy? I would have stood by him. No question about that. He didn't.

Hope for recovery... .

And actual recovery... .

Are 2 vastly different things.

Worlds apart. Agree with your entire post.

what i am doing is NOT "advocating" for pwBPD so much as advocating for Nons.  for healing, Nons really really really need to stop blaming the pwBPD for everything that went wrong in the r/s and start looking in the mirror.  but wait, thats not even my MAIN point.  main point is i really would like to see us be able to share our pain but also keep in mind the balance of presenting facts as facts, not emotions as facts.

Agree with you. The Facts are really ugly. My anger was more than justified. My actions, were a little "off" but cleaned up. And still no change in the fundamentals of the r/s. The core of the r/s could not be repaired by one side.

Drew the line in the sand a couple years ago. Had to. I ache for his pain and I cannot fix it for him. Just can't. I tried and I failed. He knows it too, but the denial and projections slam down in his mind. I can see the gears churning when he does it. It's eerie.

I have to let go because it  is what it is. I know the outcome.