Bad dream

[LilMissSunshine]

This thought has crossed my mind several times.  Perhaps because, while still in the honeymoon phase, 5 1/2 years ago I had a dream about my X.  In it he was looking at me with complete love and warmth.  Suddenly, two devil horns emerged from his forehead.     End of dream.  I told him about it and he didn't think it was funny.  Time went on and I forgot about it until recently.  I believe now that my self was trying to warn myself.  So, that thread in my head leads me to this question:  So does anyone out there think Borderlines are the devil in human form; hurting innocents, spreading their evil and trying to steal our souls?  

[Surnia]

Breslin

Honestly, I don't think that people suffering from BPD are devils in human form. Being in a relationship with someone diagnosed with a PD is a huge challenge and sometimes very hurting, no question. The affected are suffering too, even if it seems not so obvious.

My 2 cents.

[fromheeltoheal]

No.  If anything a borderline's parents are the devil.  BPD is not a biological, organic or inherited brain abnormality, it's a disorder created in the personality of someone after birth by the conditions of their upbringing, as their brain and personality is developing.  Of course if you went back to the borderline's parent's parents, and their parents upbringing, you'd probably see something similar.  Families share, and hey, why not share a personality disorder down through the generations.  If we wanted to ultimately blame someone, it should probably be that ape who treated his kid badly, up in a tree somewhere.

I'm convinced now that a borderline is not a bad person but a sick one, and unfortunately their dysfunctional coping mechanisms create a lot of wreckage, when they're only trying to keep a lid on the chaos between their ears.  It's straightforward to just want a borderline to get off it, take responsibility, open up about what's really going on, heal and grow, connect with another human on a heart to heart level that doesn't have a agenda, they just aren't capable, absolutely incapable.  Sad.  But what if we got into that relationship for a reason, because it was time for us to do a bunch of growing?  The extreme psychic upheaval my borderline gifted me with has caused exceptional growth since, and life just keeps getting better, so thanks BPD, as you make my next relationship stellar.

[necchi]

Lol!, scary dream!

I got this impression before, sometime, metaphorically

[LilMissSunshine]

Hm... .thanks people for "pulling" me back from this theory of mine a bit.  Before I went NC with my  , I did tell him I did not hate him just because he had a disease.  I've seen his suffering.  I know his mom was horribly abused as a child.  I just hate that he won't do ANYTHING about it except gaslight me.  Yet, I can't help but think the devil has taken over his soul.  Why else the dream?  And, I "was" a wonderful, beautiful person before this r/s, I want to say I had already had my "exceptional growth spurt" and was who I wanted to be before  .

[fromheeltoheal]

Hmmmm... .thanks people for "pulling" me back from this theory of mine a bit.  Before I went NC with my  , I did tell him I did not hate him just because he had a disease.  I've seen his suffering.  I know his mom was horribly abused as a child.  I just hate that he won't do ANYTHING about it except gaslight me.  Yet, I can't help but think the devil has taken over his soul.  Why else the dream?  And, I "was" a wonderful, beautiful person before this r/s, I want to say I had already had my "exceptional growth spurt" and was who I wanted to be before  .

Personally I don't believe in the devil, although imperfect humans in their dysfunction can sure seem devilish at times.  I do know that dreams speak to us in symbolism instead of black and white and clear, so maybe those horns coming out of his head were your subconscious warning you that he was bad news, which you liken to the devil, so it was presented that way.  If mine had sprouted red flags in a dream I would have been grateful to my subconscious, then again my gut was sending strong messages the entire relationship, and I ignored them.

I liken BPD to alcoholism; every borderline needs to hit bottom.  As long as the games they've been perfecting for decades still work and there's an endless supply of victims, there's no motivation to change.  Mine used her sexuality as her main weapon of conquest, and at 46 the bloom is off the rose, although she looks young for her age, but it is losing its power, so who knows what's next.  She talked about killing herself all the time, so maybe a suicide attempt and a stint in the psych ward will shift her focus so she'll look for other answers, but so far it's same old same old.

[Mutt]

I don't believe my ex is evil, although people that don't know the other side of the story have described her as such.

I am religious. I only hope that she finds peace in this lifetime or the next. I feel sympathy and compassion for her and I have asked god that she gets help.

I can't help her, but the best thing for me to do is to stay away.

It's a mental illness, I refuse to believe there's an alignment with the devil.

[Aw511]

I posted just yesterday how mine morphed into the devil, but metophorically of course. I also hope that my ex finds peace, although the more I know him, the less hope I have... .I do pray for him, as it helps me in my healing. His illness, the result of abuse during childhood, is not his fault, but not seeking help and continuing to hurt people and denying it, is his fault. I don't hate my ex, but I do hate BPD and what it does to its sufferers and those who are unfortunate enough to love them. It's just not fair. My heart breaks for him, and all of our exes, and for us, the helpless bystanders unknowingly drawn into their dysfunctional world.

[Mutt]

I posted just yesterday how mine morphed into the devil, but metophorically of course. I also hope that my ex finds peace, although the more I know him, the less hope I have... .I do pray for him, as it helps me in my healing. His illness, the result of abuse during childhood, is not his fault, but not seeking help and continuing to hurt people and denying it, is his fault. I don't hate my ex, but I do hate BPD and what it does to its sufferers and those who are unfortunate enough to love them. It's just not fair. My heart breaks for him, and all of our exes, and for us, the helpless bystanders unknowingly drawn into their dysfunctional world.

I couldn't agree more.

[Kadee]

I do believe in satan and I do believe he attacks all the time. I sort of do believe he harbors a place in my ex. After all, his game is attack. I don't hold the ex wholly responsible for this invasion, as I don't think he recognizes it.  But I do. I am attacked by the enemy through the ex.

I too, pray for peace for the uBPDstbxh, but he is capable of making decisions, and everyday, he chooses not to seek help. I don't think he'll find peace on earth, and he certainly does not wish goodwill for me. Every (unanswered by me) email is still all about him. Even after nearly a year of separation.

So guard against attacks, wherever they come from.

[HostNoMore]

LMS,

I find the fact that you dreamed during the honeymoon phase of your ex sprouting devil horns to be very interesting.  Perhaps your subconscious brain was processing the red flags and general incoherency of being in the honeymoon phase with a BPD and presenting its conclusions to you.

BPDs are not evil per se though the effect upon their targets can be seen in that light.  On one level they know exactly what they are doing. Yet, they literally cannot control it due to the pathology of the disorder.  I know that I originally thought of mine as being pure evil, but as time has healed me I have come to view her as just a very deeply disturbed and toxic person who forced me to finally confront my own inner "demons" if I shall be allowed the liberty of using that word.

[Turkish]

No.  If anything a borderline's parents are the devil.  BPD is not a biological, organic or inherited brain abnormality, it's a disorder created in the personality of someone after birth by the conditions of their upbringing, as their brain and pethis cuculturelture breeds its fair share of borderlinersonality is developing.  Of course if youcodependentback to the borderline's parent's parents, and their parents upbringing, you'd probably see something similar.  Families share, and hey, why not share a personality disorder down through the generations.  If we wanted to ultimately blame someone, it should probably be that ape who treated his kid badly, up in a tree somewhere.

I'm convinced now that a borderline is not a bad person but a sick one, and unfortunately their dysfunctional coping mechanisms create a lot of wreckage, when they're only trying to keep a lid on the chaos between their ears.  It's straightforward to just want a borderline to get off it, take responsibility, open up about what's really going on, heal and grow, connect with another human on a heart to heart level that doesn't have a agenda, they just aren't capable, absolutely incapable.  Sad.  But what if we got into that relationship for a reason, because it was time for us to do a bunch of growing?  The extreme psychic upheaval my borderline gifted me with has caused exceptional growth since, and life just keeps getting better, so thanks BPD, as you make my next relationship stellar.

mine goes back to her father probably having it.  based upon the history of what my x  told me about her grandmother,  in combination  with the way my X's  mom told her how horrible  her MIL treated her during the  first years when she married  her husband,  it likely started there.  cultural issues  are in the mix as well and I  suspect   this  culture breeds its fair share of borderlines, too: emotionally detached, cheating men and codependant, oppressed women. A friend of mine is going through something with his wife (not BPD)  originating from her FOO, same culture as mine.

[DragoN]

BPDs are not evil per se though the effect upon their targets can be seen in that light. On one level they know exactly what they are doing. Yet, they literally cannot control it due to the pathology of the disorder.  I know that I originally thought of mine as being pure evil, but as time has healed me I have come to view her as just a very deeply disturbed and toxic person who forced me to finally confront my own inner "demons" if I shall be allowed the liberty of using that word.

They are very much aware of what they are doing, but when dysregulated, they morph into something completely different. Nothing gets through. Pure hatred drives them. Some of the others, are purely manipulative and self serving and also very much aware of their actions. BPD in some cases simply feed on your dysregulation. i.e. upset, anger whathaveyou. Women tend more towards BPD and histrionic and males more often comorbid with NPD. The combinations there of with ASPD and substance abuse can lead to extremes in virtually either direction. Most of which are focused over loss of control of themselves or their partners.

[LilMissSunshine]

IDK. I'm still confused about this.  On one hand I want to believe it's mental illness plain and (not) so simple.  On the other, I remember as a child those religious "lessons".  "Beware of evil, temptation... .the devil is everywhere... .he's here on earth... .."

I DO NOT want to offend anyone or get on a religious crusade here.  It's just a theory that keeps crossing my mind.  IDK, IDK, I just don't know.

[Iwalk-Heruns]

IDK. I'm still confused about this.  On one hand I want to believe it's mental illness plain and (not) so simple.  On the other, I remember as a child those religious "lessons".  "Beware of evil, temptation... .the devil is everywhere... .he's here on earth... .!"

I DO NOT want to offend anyone or get on a religious crusade here.  It's just a theory that keeps crossing my mind.  IDK, IDK, I just don't know.

I am a religious person and so believe in God so therefore believe that there is a satan. Satan tries to infiltrate peoples lives to get them to do wrong because he hates good. In fact I think the better a person the harder satan works to get us to do bad. We are constantly being tested. You don't have to look far, the news etc to know that evil exists in this world. You also don't have to look far to see all the beauty in this world, that had to come from somewhere. God. Amazing deeds and sacrifices people make at the detriment of themselves for the good of others, an amazing sunset, how our bodies work... . The world is a battle between good and evil. It is very possible that mental illness is the work of the devil.

The thing is if they know they are doing wrong and choose not to do better just as we have that obligation even though it is not always easy. I do believe my ex knows he was doing wrong and does nothing about it because he is only caring about his wants and needs. He knows that even a simple apology could go a long way to stop some of my suffering. I even texted him this at one point. Nothing back! He was onto his next conquest. He doesn't care. It is not like say mental retardation where the person does not have control over their mind. I observed him in our relationship and he absolutely knows the difference between right and wrong.

As far as being codependent that is a common subject on these boards. In our contemporary world Jesus and Mother Teresa would be considered codependent! We have to know the difference between sacrificing for good and sacrificing for evil.

I hate that the world has come to a place where we have to apologize or feel we may offend someone if we express our religious beliefs. If someone doesn't believe in the same things I do that's fine I respect that as much as I want my beliefs respected and not suppressed.

Just my Sunday morning sermon! Lol.

[DragoN]

Great Sermon Iwalk Heruns.

I am not religious at all. So, my suggestion to lilmisssunshine is to bring him in for an exorcism and see if that helps. Won't hurt at any rate.

Make his coffee with Holy Water? Worth a shot.

[Iwalk-Heruns]

Great Sermon Iwalk Heruns.

I am not religious at all. So, my suggestion to lilmisssunshine is to bring him in for an exorcism and see if that helps. Won't hurt at any rate.

Thanks MeganK! I have often thought about the need for an exorcism. Except I was actually thinking I am the one who needed one to get him out of my head and body. It's is like he took over at some point. He's slowly leaving though.

[DragoN]

Will have to agree with you on that for myself as well. Get rid of the last vestiges of the psychic stench of PD gunk. Not fun.

[LilMissSunshine]

Yeah.  Thanks IWHR... .I'm gettin it a little better.  They do know they are wrong and choose not to care.  Slowly I'm losing the anger that I've been feeling.  Actually it comes and goes.  This is one "hell" of a process.  BTW MeganK... .my X hates the smell/taste of coffee (something to do with his mentally ill mom), so that won't work.  I doubt I'll ever see him again, but if I do... .maybe I'll make the ice cubes for his drink with holy water.  

[fromheeltoheal]

They do know they are wrong and choose not to care. 

I say that is giving our mentally ill person too much credit, assigning to them the ability to choose.  A borderline does things that hurt themselves and other people, don't know why, and can't control it; that is a living hell.  My borderline ex was intelligent and in her forties, she'd had decades worth of failed relationships, so she had become expert at affecting attachments, she had to, since most men left her and she didn't do alone well at all.  So she knew exactly what she was doing, until her disorder got triggered, the emotions would get way too strong for her to deal with, so the repression, projection and cognitive distortion would show up, the crazy would take over and the pain would show up for all involved.  And then, to live with herself, continued repression, projection and all the rest, so did she know and care?  She knew but just couldn't face it, and caring would hurt too much, so into the repression pile it went, and on to the next victim.  But that stuff comes bubbling up during the quiet alone times, worse and worse as the pile gets bigger, and the new guy gets a fit of rage that came out of nowhere, has no idea how to fix it, and we should get ready to welcome him on these boards.

What if God put a mentally ill person in our lives because there were lessons to now learn that only that experience could truly teach?  No satan required.

[Jbt857]

I used to wake up sobbing, having had a dream that my BPDexh was cheating on me. This was before I caught him cheating on me... .Used to get the dream a few times a year, wake up properly distraught.

Strange how the subconscious works... .

I think they just lack the same basic moral code that most of us try to live by. No devils necessary.

[myself]

What if God put a mentally ill person in our lives because there were lessons to now learn that only that experience could truly teach?  No satan required.

What if God is mentally ill? That could explain quite a lot.

[Iwalk-Heruns]

They do know they are wrong and choose not to care. 

I say that is giving our mentally ill person too much credit, assigning to them the ability to choose.  A borderline does things that hurt themselves and other people, don't know why, and can't control it; that is a living hell.  My borderline ex was intelligent and in her forties, she'd had decades worth of failed relationships, so she had become expert at affecting attachments, she had to, since most men left her and she didn't do alone well at all.  So she knew exactly what she was doing, until her disorder got triggered, the emotions would get way too strong for her to deal with, so the repression, projection and cognitive distortion would show up, the crazy would take over and the pain would show up for all involved.  And then, to live with herself, continued repression, projection and all the rest, so did she know and care?  She knew but just couldn't face it, and caring would hurt too much, so into the repression pile it went, and on to the next victim.  But that stuff comes bubbling up during the quiet alone times, worse and worse as the pile gets bigger, and the new guy gets a fit of rage that came out of nowhere, has no idea how to fix it, and we should get ready to welcome him on these boards.

What if God put a mentally ill person in our lives because there were lessons to now learn that only that experience could truly teach?  No satan required.

My personal experience is that this view gives them too much credit. (Although I will say that as much as all our exes had uncannily similar behaviors they still are different people so) I saw my ex be very remorseful with me (fake I see now) when it served his purpose. I see this in retrospect. He also did not rage at certain people usually ones that he knew wouldn't put up with it or his enablers. The people that are a part of his cover for being a good person.

These are not sour grapes just my observations over time. I think some of his disregulation could not be helped at the moment however but once time passes he knows what he did was wrong just chooses not to acknowledge it. He knows full well the suffering he has caused me. He truly only cares about himself. The proof is in the pudding!

Something I have started to notice is that all our exes are probably some cluster b PD. Mine is undiagnosed but my therapist used to correct me when I said BPD. She would say well definitely sounds like a cluster b. she seemed like she leaned more to npd but of course couldn't really come out and say that because she was not seeing him. She did give me an article on npd.

To me it always seems like the differences between the pd's within cluster b is intent and but the behaviors are similar. Just my personal observations and from research but BPD seem to have a better intent and npd and aspd are more users and do not care. From all my ex did and what I found out he definitely used me.

These are of course all just my opinions.

[DragoN]

Agree with you again IWHR.

What if God put a mentally ill person in our lives because there were lessons to now learn that only that experience could truly teach?  No satan required.

What if God is mentally ill? That could explain quite a lot.

What if there is no God and no Satan and this is all an alien experiment?

I say that is giving our mentally ill person too much credit, assigning to them the ability to choose.

They have the ability. They choose Not to exercise it and when it suits them. I have seen my exH in action with this, a BPDgf of mine and one other. They can choose. If they could not? They would be drooling on themselves in lock down somewhere.

My BPDgf was very helpful in explaining to me some of the dynamics, and she was an extreme case. Electroshock therapy, multiple suicide attempts, alcoholic. She got her life under control, but was still quite Waif. Social engineer extraordinaire. Different stories from each person that knew her. When you started putting them together, a very different picture came to light.

I do feel sorry for my exH, but I could not help him at all. The person closest to them and most important to them is their trigger. The more they care about you, the more you trigger them, then the abandonment fears take over and then the replacements are sought.

The Devil? No. The devil of their own thought patterns. The fear of lack of acceptance. Their self hatred. Whatever it is.

Reactive abuse, the Devil made me do it?  Nah. I wish I could use that as an excuse though.

To me it always seems like the differences between the pd's within cluster b is intent and but the behaviors are similar. Just my personal observations and from research but BPD seem to have a better intent and npd and aspd are more users and do not care. From all my ex did and what I found out he definitely used me.

Can see you on that. Mine was a mix, NPD/ BPD/ ASPD and alcoholic. Was  much fun. Not really.

[necchi]

What if God put a mentally ill person in our lives because there were lessons to now learn that only that experience could truly teach?  No satan required.

What if God is mentally ill? That could explain quite a lot.

Although I have no regilgious believes, this would explain a lot!

[fromheeltoheal]

Yes, you and I mostly agree Iwalk, and my ex exhibited both borderline and narcissistic traits.  She knew what she was doing and that it hurt people, although I question if she knew how much, and she definitely could not control it or be open to other ways to behave, literally out of control.  The combination of the continual chaos between her ears and the stunted emotional growth made her ability to empathize questionable, and she was confused many times as to why I was so upset, a combination of selfishness out of necessity and an inability to really know on an adult level.

Many times I witnessed her connect with the impact she was having after the fact, like some fog cleared, and the primary emotion that came up for her was shame.  What a terrible way to live: do and say things based on current needs, notice later how much pain it caused, feel intense shame over it, repress or project that shame, or distort the reality to make that shame less painful, repeat.  There were plenty of opportunities to get off it, but to her the acknowledgement of that shame would be too extreme and the walls would crumble, plus she was always on the brink of feeling engulfed and losing herself, and expression of vulnerability meant loss of control, so there's no way she was going there.  Impossible to create intimacy with that kind of wiring, and we deserve better.