what the heck is this?

[patientandclear]

Hi Staying comrades.  It's been a while since I've posted here.  Background (P&C veterans can skip to nearly the end of this section ) -- my uBPDexbf broke up with me after a brief, passionate, seemingly blissful r/s in 2011. We'd known & respected each other for years as work colleagues.  I was devastated.  We talked about getting back together but his therapist advised him to try being alone for the first time in his adult life; I said I respected that & would stay friends, but then entered a NC period when instead of being alone, he started seeing a younger colleague of mine whom he'd dated in the past.  Then I learned about BPD. They split, and I got back in touch as a friend, sincerely believing he wasn't in a position to be my partner because there are triggers everywhere & his reaction to triggers is not to rage, which I think I could handle, but to leave, which is darned hard on a r/s

So for the last 18 months we've had this intimate friendship.  It got confusing to me (well documented here on the Staying board) because he would pull me in in ways that no one does except with their SO.  I kept thinking he wanted more, but over time it became clear that he wanted it just as it was: super close, but without any accountability, rules, or sex (we had what I think was a great sexual r/s but he has intense issues stemming from childhood sexual abuse around sex & intimacy).  For a whole year, he wasn't seeing anyone else.  I think our r/s helped him with that--I was his "person" enough that he didn't need to go find another person.

This past spring, we had a day that was particularly intensely close.  He decided that night to sell his apartment and leave our city.  He sold it immediately, and left three weeks later.  In the lead up to the move, he saw me a lot.  I kept not making a big deal about his leaving which seemed to allow him to get closer and closer to me.  By the end, other than the no sex, and no overt acknowledgement -- well, and the fact he was leaving! -- we were indistinguishable from our r/s as lovers.

When he left, he sort of had a plan to come back.  But about a month out, he wrote to tell me he was thinking of moving somewhat at random to   another city.  I wrote back gently raising the issue of what would be lost if he did that -- including with our r/s.  He didn't respond for 10 weeks.  When he did, we had a big email fight about whether it was OK for me to have asked that question, thus trying to "capture" him, etc.  (Fear of being controlled, smothered, captured is a huge theme for him.  He speaks of people who appear to be your friend but have a hidden agenda to capture you.)  We made up.  We then visited each other a couple of times and ended the summer in wonderful fashion, closer than we'd ever been.

Then things changed a lot -- subject of my last posts here.  He suddenly stopped initiating any texts -- he'd used to narrate little and big aspects of his life to me that way, but that ended in Sept.  In a variety of ways, I got the feeling that he was seeing someone else.  He continued to be very intimate with me in email & texts I'd initiate, including confiding in me for a nano-second that he thought he might have an attachment disorder -- by far the biggest acknowledgement ever on that front, though he quickly backed up to say that there was "nothing that needs to be fixed."  But the closeness was episodic and eventually there were no more texts at all.

In October I stumbled on photo evidence that he was dating someone he'd just met.  The r/s appeared to have started hot and fast.  They seem to have split for a week in Nov but resumed after.  When I realized this, & confirmed my guess that the reason he'd changed up our r/s was that he was seeing someone else, I had to take a while to process my feelings & figure out what to do next.  He noticed immediately that I was slow to answer an email, and wanted to know what was up.  I didn't explain then -- said I didn't want to discuss because I didn't think he'd understand, in a nice way -- because I knew he'd perceive that I was jealous of his new r/s, & think I was being controlling, and it wasn't exactly jealousy, it was that he moved me aside FOR the new r/s.  Anyway, I just made a unilateral choice to step back to a bit to a slightly more casual rhythm in our email, which was by then our only form of communication. He's very averse to the phone, but wrote that he "wasn't opposed to talking occasionally," but to me, that elicited a "gee, don't do me any favors!" reaction.  It wasn't that he wanted to talk to me, you know -- he was, very late, trying to prevent me from receding from the intense engagement we'd had.

We've gone on in this way for almost two months now -- less intimate, more superficial, less frequent communication.  Recently he's hinted at the new r/s.  He's also retaliated (I think) for my slight withdrawal in frequency, by taking a lot longer (days) to respond to most of my msgs.

I've been all torn up about the path this took, and was on the cusp of writing him this weekend that I needed a sabbatical from contact, because of the whole dynamic where he pulls me super close, then pushes me aside to make room for a gf when he's pursuing someone.

So here's the question.

Before I could send that message, I got an email from him today asking if I want to talk by phone or Skype on Christmas. ?  What the heck?  If not for the Christmas part, I'd say he wants to tell me he & the new gf are getting married or something, in person.  But to request to have the conversation on Christmas -- seems unlikely that that will be the message, at least to me.

I'm having a hard time deciding how to respond.  I'd love to have the kind of r/s where we talk on Christmas, and this summer, I thought we did.  We were growing closer, making it through some tough times, getting better at just being together.  But then, he pursued other women, and substituted them for me in various aspects of his life that we used to share. OK, I dealt with that -- by stepping back to a level of engagement that matched what he seemed willing to put in.  Not willing to be super close with him, only to be picked up & put down depending on what was going on with other women in his life.  This was all sad & hard for me, but seemed like a clear & necessary path.

But now ... .what's up with talking on Christmas, from the man to whom the phone is anathema?  On Christmas?  I do want the closeness that that offer signifies, but I don't want to embark on it if he's just using me to relieve anxiety in his other r/s, or is going to keep connecting intimately with me and then shifting to another woman to engage with exclusively in the same areas he & I share.

I've also thought about whether I would want to return to a romantic r/s with him.  We were at a point this summer where I would have -- there hadn't been any recent violations of trust, not that the r/s had been easy.  But since then, I do feel like he's violated my trust -- he's put other women in my place, as it were, treated me as interchangeable, replaceable.  It's been like an open r/s that I never signed up for.  At this point, knowing that he's professed deep love to two women since we were together (at least), no doubt as sincerely as he did with me, I also just feel kind of nauseous about any words I might hear from him.

Would appreciate any thoughts about how best to respond to this overture for sudden, much more intimate contact.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[123Phoebe]

Hey P&C!

Would appreciate any thoughts about how best to respond to this overture for sudden, much more intimate contact.

I get your confusion considering everything you've been through together.  I think I'd try to keep this as simple as possible.

Do you want to talk to him on Christmas day?  Yes or No?

And then take it from there... .

[coworkerfriend]

P&C - yikes you have been on quite a journey with him.  You have gone above and beyond to build a friendship with him.

I think Phoebe nailed it - do you want to talk to him?  If it weren't Christmas, would you have wanted to talk/Skype with  him.  In your message, you mentioned you needed a break.  Maybe the holiday shouldn't really factor into your decision. 

I don't really have any great words of wisdom. In the past, I would overthink and overanalyze my responses and reactions to things.  When I did that, I often ignored my intuition.  I have figured out that I need to listen to my gut more.  I hope you are able to listen to what you want and how you feel about things.   

[patientandclear]

Sure!  In a vacuum, I do (want to talk with him).  I wanted to spend the rest of my life talking to him, on Christmas day and many other days.  In general, I'd be open to any direction he & I both wanted to take this r/s.

But he's seeing someone else.  I don't want to be the salvage yard where he goes to mine for goodness & love that he can then use to bolster himself in his relationship with another woman.  :)oes that make sense?

I have a little more clarity this morning about what's bothering me.  It feels as though this overture is perhaps not about us at all.  There's no "I miss you and I'd love to hear your voice."  Just, "do you want to talk on Christmas?"  Maybe he's scared of rejection, I don't want to read too much into the framing, but this is a VERY strange offer given where we are.  He also doesn't talk by phone except in the very beginning of a new r/s, or with his kids/siblings.  It's like it's too intimate otherwise.  So this practically feels like he's making me part of his family, especially with the "on Christmas" part.

My current feeling is to say yes but also to say I can't be this close to him if he is going to swap me around interchangeably with other women.  That's why I pulled back this fall & those conditions all still apply (he's seeing someone, I feel he's put her in my "place" in the sense that they are now sharing specific things we used to share).

[damage control]

Hey P+C

You and I are just stuck in neutral aren't we? What a mess.

I wouldn't dare offer any advice except to say that I agree that following what you want to do is probably the best course.

Taking a call at Xmas doesn't mean that you can't cool things off afterwards if you want to ... .it seems like it has meaning for both of you to touch base on Xmas day so perhaps you could go ahead with that and see how you feel afterwards? I just think, from what you have written that you may regret not doing it ... .

Caveat: Given I am in the biggest mess of all time, my advice should definitely be taken with a grain of salt ...

I wish I could say more - you always have such thoughtful advice ... but I will say that if it was me ... I would take the call.

[myself]

He might have had a moment where he felt he was losing you, so he's attempting to reel you back in. So many hooks there: Holiday, family, setting it up ahead of time, wondering if you're close. It seems a safe way to communicate, for him, where he may be hoping that nothing too important or personal is brought up. Get in, get out. More about the attention he wants to receive than about you and your feelings.

This also has to do with pain and loneliness, on both sides. So you're asking, Will this help either one of us with that? It might make those feelings deeper. Sorry to sound so cynical, but you know these patterns as well as anyone. Until there is real change, that's how it goes. I wonder what the person he is with now would think if she knew he was talking with someone who has such history with him, on such a special day?

How to even respond to this out of nowhere Christmas phone call than to ask, "What the heck's up with this out of nowhere Christmas phone call?" You're at the point where you're feeling to express yourself and know that you are heard. Maybe you can propose to talk another, less emotionally complicated time. If he has news, it can wait. If you need more than what he's offering, you have the right to say so. Hanging onto the truth when it needs to be released is something that can slow our growth.

[patientandclear]

Hi again.  Well, it's not going particularly well so far

I wrote, saying I'd love to talk, but that I'd pulled back this fall because I can't be super close to him if he is picking me up & putting me down depending on what's going on with other people.  That I can't be more committed than he is.  I said I'd love to be in a r/s where we talked on Christmas, but -- are we?  What did he want this to be like?

It made him pretty darn mad.  He said I thought the worst of him & then refused to talk with him about it (I didn't explain this fall when I pulled back somewhat, just implemented my own boundary).  I sent a text meant to convey that I didn't think badly of him ... .he was super mad in his text replies, again reiterating that I thought the worst of him.

Yes, Myself, I said some things I needed to say.  I can't be so close to him and then feel like he's setting me down to turn his attention to someone else, over and over.  It's hard to convey the change in words.  There were so many little ways in which he was really with me and then -- gone -- in a way that wasn't the case before.  When I realized this was not just withdrawing to take time, which I've gotten used to with him, but was because he was courting other women, this became pretty rotten for me.  It made me feel like I was in an open r/s where I provided the emotional depth & continuity & the other woman/en got told how amazing they were and how excited he was to know them.

I can't do that role on those terms.  But now I sort of regret telling him.  I guessed two months ago that he wouldn't understand, and apparently I was right.  He really doesn't understand.  He feels both abandoned and attacked.

[Want2know]

I don't want to be the salvage yard where he goes to mine for goodness & love that he can then use to bolster himself in his relationship with another woman.

This line struck me, P&C... .I think it did because if you think of your communication with him this way, it's going to lead you down a path that I don't think you want to be on.

I was going to ask you the same question Phoebe did... .do you want to talk to him?  If yes, do so.  If no, don't.  It seems that you are over-analyzing this, understandably, you have quite a history with him, and your feelings are still so strong.

You have control over how the conversation goes - it can be light, and end with a 'Merry Christmas', or you can feed into the thought that I quoted above.

[elemental]

What happens if you ignore him for this?

[Seashells]

Hi P&C 

I just wanted to say "Hi"   

I think you did the right thing by expressing your feelings about it, even if it didn't go as well as you'd have liked.   We can't control the outcome.  Your truth is your truth, and healthy relationships consider both peoples needs, wants and feelings right? 

And as far as accusations about your feelings and motivations?  Uhhhmmm... .You probably already know the answer and the deal with that right? 

Maybe try not to "JADE" ?   What do you think? 

If it were me?  I'd be asking myself if the conversation had the potential to upset me to the point of messing up my Christmas if it didn't go well?  And decide from there if I wanted to deal with it.  There are other days during the holiday week too.   

Just my thoughts. 

[myself]

P&C, good for you! You knew you needed to, and now you did. I've come to the conclusion it's better to have said it than remain silent. To face the truth. Your boundaries are important. You deserve so much more respect than that, someone who appreciates you and is really there. His reaction was to put up walls. To focus on his pains instead of yours, or those that are mutual. It's dismissive and not close.

How do you feel? Is there any relief? Is the sense of loss tempered by knowing you did whatever was possible, with good intentions? Which steps come next?

You did not attack him, or abandon him. Which you know. I'm sorry you both will have to live the consequences of him perceiving things that way. It's not what you were hoping for, but hopefully it helps make things more clear for you. 

[patientandclear]

Myself:

Thanks so much for that perfect post.  Yes, I knew I needed to say what would make this work for me.  We had one last exchange -- he asked me to say how I needed it to be, I said I needed him to be able to sustain what he starts with me, and that I knew that was no small thing to ask.  He responded today essentially saying we need to give up.  I agree(d).  We said goodbyes, him a little roughly, me a little less roughly.  That's it.  Over.

Thank you Staying.  As Briefcase and KateCat and others pointed out a while ago, I was turning myself into a pretzel to make this work for him, without much reference to whether that would work for me.  Because I wanted him so much.

We got to a point where it really did/does not work for me.  I can't be the emotional treasure chest that keeps him going while he professes "love" for other women and takes our r/s for granted.  It feels better to have asked him for what I needed than to have unilaterally decided that he can't do it.  I'm sad he cannot do it ... .but that doesn't mean he can.

Thanks to all.

[KateCat]

P&C, you are showing so much strength and integrity. I'm sorry it has to hurt so much.

(I want to confess to secretly thinking "hmmm, P&C seems to be in her mid forties. If she finds no relief in the next year or two, then Mother Nature is bound to take pity on her and release her from this terrible bond by the time she is on the other side of 50." But you are doing all the hard work for yourself and shortening the time frame of this necessary evolution.)

He sounds like an extremely compelling fellow and choosing self care over contact with him on his terms is surely very very tough.

Do you really think this is good-bye?

[patientandclear]

P&C, you are showing so much strength and integrity. I'm sorry it has to hurt so much.

(I want to confess to secretly thinking "hmmm, P&C seems to be in her mid forties. If she finds no relief in the next year or two, then Mother Nature is bound to take pity on her and release her from this terrible bond by the time she is on the other side of 50." But you are doing all the hard work for yourself and shortening the time frame of this necessary evolution.)

He sounds like an extremely compelling fellow and choosing self care over contact with him on his terms is surely very very tough.

Do you really think this is good-bye?

KateCat, so good to hear from you.  "All you have to lose is your chains," you said.  I've remembered that.  Yes, the chains were very seductive.  It is very hard to say goodbye to him on the terms that he wants.  It's so close to something worthwhile.  It's just that every time he turned away from what we were doing to tell another woman how amazing she was and soliciting her incredibly insightful views on the thing he just told me I had the most insightful views ever about ... .it did a lot of damage to my sense of myself and of the value of our r/s.

He didn't say goodbye for ever or anything, nor did I.  I'm sure he'll reach out at some point.  When that happens it will be good that I've said what the terms are for further engagement, & don't have to work that out again for myself.

About being near 50 ... .if you're saying my sexual desire for him will fade ... .that more sad than a relief, you know?  This was, among other good aspects, by far the best sexual r/s I've ever had.  Finding that in my 40s and then losing it again is really hard to accept.  Nonetheless.

 KC.  Thanks for the post.

[KateCat]

I would like to predict all good things for your fifties! Not the lessening of sexual desire, but feeling good in your physical skin and enjoying mental well-being. It's something hard to explain until you get there, but I think it's something real for many women. (Of course they say there are some who have a psychotic break and live unhappily ever after in the madhouse, but I don't know any of those myself. )

I was also going to say that obsessional preoccupations drop away as we get older, but I'm certainly addicted to reading your posts . . . so I'd better not make that claim.

Your guy has got to be addicted as well to the high quality value of your yearning for him. That should continue too.

[damage control]

About being near 50 ... .if you're saying my sexual desire for him will fade ... .that more sad than a relief, you know?  This was, among other good aspects, by far the best sexual r/s I've ever had.  Finding that in my 40s and then losing it again is really hard to accept.  Nonetheless.

I know exactly what you mean P+C. Letting go of that hope seems like giving yourself permission to go back to having no desire whatsoever and somehow, futile desire seems better than no desire at all. So wrong, but it feels that way.

[patientandclear]

Wow, KateCat, thank you!  Coming from you, that's a real shot in the arm!  I think the story is over now though.  I don't want to be used and he doesn't seem interested in engaging in relationships on other terms.

I am really glad I didn't just accept the phone call today for what it's worth.  I'd made a boundary in my own head two months ago that if he was going to engage with other women in a way that had an impact on our r/s, I needed not to be so close to him.  He specifically had offered the long-withheld phone calls at that point, and I had specifically said "not under these circumstances."  To have had this Christmas call was going several steps further in the direction of "we're like family" or "you're my person" and he isn't living in a way that's consistent with that.  And it was starting to make me crazy.  

I love your description of my 50s to come!  That will be great!  I can't wait.

DC, yes indeed, I HATE the idea of giving up what this r/s did for me as a sexual being.  But I do recognize that for my ex, sex and intimacy are a toxic brew.  He was sexually abused by a trusted adult as a kid and I completely understand why all of this is so fraught for him.  I just can't stay in the spin cycle if he is not going to make progress toward figuring out the value of what we have and that it's worth giving up other things that he also likes/that make him feel better, to keep us.  So far, he can't, or it isn't worth it.

I think I'll be sad about that for a very long time.  But I am going to accept it.

[arn131arn]

Got some advice today to start reading these "staying" posts.

PandC I hope/wish one day I can become as calm and serene as you.  In your time of heightened emotions with your dealings with him, I can see patience and serenity.  I believe this somes with a true sense of one's self and the world about you.

I am still trying to get off this toxic goo of the last 14 years.  I am angry, resentful, jealous, and don't fell to highly of myself.  After such a long relationship as mine, any ideas how long it will take the heart to mend?

I plan on seeing a P on Jan 10th every week, working out, eating healthy, staying sober, and concentrating on school, and being the best damn dad I can be.

The way you detached like that with class amazes me... .I have been unable to show anything like that the past week... .So you are growing.  You are strong.  You go girl