Was it our fault?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Was it our fault?

Here an interesting perspective: it wasn't.

And it wasn't in any of the subtle ways either.

Your BPD partner has a mental illness. They can be a chameleon, so convincing, and you are no more at fault than a Jewish person was to a nazi.

You don't have to analyze your actions, look to your past, instead you can move forward. I certainly didn't for 15 years, I explored all the familiar paradigms that shamed me in subtle ways as "asking for it" or "cooperating".

What did I contribute? Nothing. This is a new idea to me and really freeing. If it helps you... . I hope it does.

[LivingLearning]

Was it our fault?

Here an interesting perspective: it wasn't.

And it wasn't in any of the subtle ways either.

Your BPD partner has a mental illness. They can be a chameleon, so convincing, and you are no more at fault than a Jewish person was to a nazi.

You don't have to analyze your actions, look to your past, instead you can move forward. I certainly didn't for 15 years, I explored all the familiar paradigms that shamed me in subtle ways as "asking for it" or "cooperating".

What did I contribute? Nothing. This is a new idea to me and really freeing. If it helps you... . I hope it does.

[LettingGo14]

Was it our fault?

Here an interesting perspective: it wasn't.

And it wasn't in any of the subtle ways either.

Your BPD partner has a mental illness. They can be a chameleon, so convincing, and you are no more at fault than a Jewish person was to a nazi.

You don't have to analyze your actions, look to your past, instead you can move forward. I certainly didn't for 15 years, I explored all the familiar paradigms that shamed me in subtle ways as "asking for it" or "cooperating".

What did I contribute? Nothing. This is a new idea to me and really freeing. If it helps you... . I hope it does.

There's a book by Patrick Carnes, called the "Betrayal Bond: Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships" that I recommend highly.   There's a discussion thread here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=77344.0

Here's my perspective:  I'm out of the relationship and I'm not going to call myself a victim anymore.  In the aftermath, I'm stripped to the core.   In the aftermath, I'm going to explore my past, and my actions.   No one's story is exactly the same -- for me, there were red flags that I ignored.  

I am free.  And I am present.   And I have work to do, and that's okay.

[blissful_camper]

Here's my perspective:  I'm out of the relationship and I'm not going to call myself a victim anymore.  In the aftermath, I'm stripped to the core.   In the aftermath, I'm going to explore my past, and my actions.   No one's story is exactly the same -- for me, there were red flags that I ignored.  

I am free.  And I am present.   And I have work to do, and that's okay.

Amen.  

[Skip]

Another individual perspective... .

I embraced my shortcomings, really dissected them, and have learned from them.  

I am a much better relationship partner that I was before.  I understand the other person much more.

And I'm happier.

[trappedinlove]

Taking responsibility over ourselves is not equal to being at fault.

Regardless of whether we could do anything different in the past

and whether we were victimized or not, it doesn't matter... .

The only thing we can do in the present to deal with the aftermath is to improve ourselves.

I choose not to blame anyone and focus on being positive and constructive about myself.

TIL

[BacknthSaddle]

Taking responsibility over ourselves is not equal to being at fault... .

The only thing we can do in the present to deal with the aftermath is to improve ourselves.

I agree. I don't feel that the end of the relationship was "my fault," and trying to learn about myself and how I came to be in such a relationship does not provoke "shame" in me.  BPD by definition involves unstable interpersonal relationships, so I agree that there's really nothing I could have done to "make it work," and so I don't see myself at fault "at all."  But, at least in my case, learning how damaged my ex is has made me realize (through a lot of self-inquiry) that I happen to be attracted to damaged people, and this in turn has taught me a lot about myself.  This is  not a characteristic I wish to maintain, but rather one I wish to change.  This was "my role" in the relationship.  It was far from the reason that the relationship collapsed.  But I also would hate to have left the relationship learning nothing about myself. 

[jibber]

What will happen if you meet the next person who will be like your ex?

Why did you stay in the relationship?

My ex showed me her "mental illness" within the first few days of our relationship. I knew very clear when it happend the first time: "this is not normal, run, and run fast!".

Then i stayed for one year and close to 30 recycles. Is that her fault?

A relatioship is 50/50, two people. You did your part, like i did mine.

It doesn't mean you should believe the devaluation and emotional abuse you probably went through. But why did you not run far away right when it happend the first time?

Will you run away immediately and remove yourself from an unhealthy relationship with the next person if they start abusing you?


Your analogy with the jews and nazis is nice, but it doesn't work here.

The jews had no choice. They weren't asked if they wanted to be part of what was done to them, nor could they raise their hand and say "i want out now".

We had this choice however. We could say at any point: "this isn't healthy, this is abuse, i want out!", but we didn't, we stayed and let the abuse continue.

We are jews that went back to the concentration camp on our own free will, after knowing very well what they will do to us there.

So you really gotta ask yourself... . If a jew goes to a concentration camp on his own free will, does he have some issues himself that he should resolve? So maybe someday he will realize going to the camp is not healthy for him? Or is it purely the nazis fault for taking him back in when the jew comes back for more abuse?

You have a chance to look at yourself and find your own shortcomings now. The reward will be a much stronger and healthier YOU.

[Skip]

Why does anyone raise this question on the Leaving Board?

Why is fault issue so important to some?

[WalrusGumboot]

Why does anyone raise this question on the Leaving Board?

Why is fault issue so important to some?

To answer the question "WHY?" To bring some kind of closure to the failed relationship when finding closure seems impossible. To be able to give an answer to the nosy people who ask what happened to make the marriage/relationship fail.

The more time passes since my divorce, the less important FAULT becomes. I found closure in pretty much what the original post said: Your BPD partner has a mental illness. The struggle for closure is coming to grips with that reality. When I did, the anger, bitterness, resentment, and the finger-pointing faded.

[jibber]

Why does anyone raise this question on the Leaving Board?

Why is fault issue so important to some?

For me personally:

I think it would have helped me immensly to have it "black on white on a paper" that her abuse was real and her fault. Her aknowledging her part.

It was not to put all the blame on her, but to feel some validation, closure... . That i wasn't crazy for saying what she did was emotinal abuse. I think many of us non's feel like they are the "crazy" ones coming out of a relationship like this.

I think we all want to hear desperately "you are not crazy, it really was emotional abuse.".

But as i wrote above. Comparing myself to the nazi/jew analogy... . I went back to camp several times, on my own free will.

I started focusing on myself. Stopped ruminating about all she "did to me".

I accept it wasn't ok what she did, but i had the right to remove myself from the situation, and i didn't.

I think for me it wasn't so much a fault finding issue. It just would have helped a lot to have it black on white: "her abusing you was not your own fault like she always told you.".

Staying was my own fault however.

[Lion Fire]

There's a book by Patrick Carnes, called the "Betrayal Bond: Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships" that I recommend highly.   There's a discussion thread here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=77344.0

Here's my perspective:  I'm out of the relationship and I'm not going to call myself a victim anymore.  In the aftermath, I'm stripped to the core.   In the aftermath, I'm going to explore my past, and my actions.   No one's story is exactly the same -- for me, there were red flags that I ignored.  

I am free.  And I am present.   And I have work to do, and that's okay.

I am with you LettingGo14... .

To be fair, I had my part to play. A huge role. I can't deny this. I totally ignored red flags all along and became the Knight in Shining Armour that she was looking for and which fed my ego. Of course, this was an impossible task.  I wasn't true to myself from the start and that means that I wasn't entirely honest with my ex and therefore my motives were skewed. I am not denying that I was in a relationship with a very sick and unbalanced woman suffering from a serious disorder but I have to look at myself.

I too am stripped bare in the aftermath of this tornado of a relationship. This process has been excruciatingly painful but I am not running from it anymore. It feels like I'm reaching levels and touching on areas I never even knew were there.

I'm trusting that I'll come through the other end a better and more healthy man  

[Rapt Reader]

With respect for the Jewish families that lost loved ones during WWII, we ask that concentration camp analogies not be used to explain any aspect of a romantic relationship.

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[Mutt]

I am with you LettingGo14... .

To be fair, I had my part to play. A huge role. I can't deny this. I totally ignored red flags all along and became the Knight in Shining Armour that she was looking for and which fed my ego. Of course, this was an impossible task.  I wasn't true to myself from the start and that means that I wasn't entirely honest with my ex and therefore my motives were skewed. I am not denying that I was in a relationship with a very sick and unbalanced woman suffering from a serious disorder but I have to look at myself.

I too am stripped bare in the aftermath of this tornado of a relationship. This process has been excruciatingly painful but I am not running from it anymore. It feels like I'm reaching levels and touching on areas I never even knew were there.

I'm trusting that I'll come through the other end a better and more healthy man  

Thanks for sharing Lion Fire, I can relate. It makes me question my motives in the beginning and my rescuer tendencies. She was a single mother when I met her, her was 5 at the time and I felt like I had to help her out. I was looking out for someone else's needs in the r/s and not looking after myself. I was enmeshed and didn't know where she ended and I began.

I echo the excruciating pain that you are describing. There where some really difficult days, but with the help I received in therapy and this community, I knew that I would come out OK. I knew that I  could break my own cyclical pattern of unhealthy relationships, if I detached and grieved. There is no easy fix. It took the most difficult experience of my life to stop hitting the snooze button, and wake-up.

[Lion Fire]

Aye Mutt,

This whole Detachment and grieving thing is so painful man!

It's been a month since I've seen her and a week of NC and very LC before that.

I feel like I'm in an extended cold turkey zone 

I'm just following directions and my natural instincts for once in this relationship and having to trust that it all pans out.

[Mutt]

Aye Mutt,

This whole Detachment and grieving thing is so painful man!

It's been a month since I've seen her and a week of NC and very LC before that.

I feel like I'm in an extended cold turkey zone 

I'm just following directions and my natural instincts for once in this relationship and having to trust that it all pans out.

I hear you loud and clear Lion Fire. You're going through the most difficult part. It's tough. You're doing the right thing by trusting your intuition Lion Fire 

[LivingLearning]

Interesting replies.

I took particular notice  to Why is fault issue so important to some? " by skip.

  I'm not quite sure why I'm referred to as "anyone" or "some" when i was simply stating my offer/opinion as "livinglearning." The third person tense seems passive aggressive based on my personal interaction with you skip, through messages. If I'm breaking any rules with this transparency please tell the community why as I know you can remove this post. Though I'd expect you might get some support.

These are all interesting points. And the idea of "why did I stay" is not new to me. For a decade I preached that to others. And yet I don't see it as you do, now. If your perspective works for you in the long run. More power to you. For me I'm starting to experiment in the comfort of the idea of random choices that go wrong. And not do exactly what my caregivers and some ex's would do- offer that I could look to what's up with my choices. What's up with me. I don't care if it's called fault or responsibility.

And while I very much respect the request to not bring up Germans/Jews, as one who was touched personally by the holocaust, I believe it's a great thing to bring up. And always remember the lessons learned and apply them. The lesson there to me was that humanity can sometimes not see what's coming, and only later realize it.

[KateCat]

Why is fault issue so important to some? " by skip.

I'm not quite sure why I'm referred to as "anyone" or "some" when i was simply stating my offer/opinion as "livinglearning."

LivingLearning,

The issue of "fault" is discussed so very frequently on this forum, that I really think Skip did mean "anyone" or "some" rather than you in particular. It's always a spirited debate, as you are seeing. World War II victims of the Holocaust are not infrequently mentioned by way of analogy as well. And that reference understandably causes some concerns among the moderators and some members.

I think many, if not most of us walk similar paths in our journey of understanding.  

[LivingLearning]

And... .

Thanks for the months here.

I'm unsubscribing from the site as I don't want to participate in what I see as the leadership style here by a few people.

Best to you.

-Jon (livinglearning)

[StillAlive]

Why does anyone raise this question on the Leaving Board?

Why is fault issue so important to some?

My relationship was very disorienting. Out of the one hundred fifty-seven mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is one of the most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. My own inaction, perception and way of thinking had lead me to accept responsibility for the sorry state of our relationship at the time. I simply did not possess the same experience and tools that I do today to address the manipulation, violence, and gaslighting in a positive way. It was during the fallout of our separation that I frequently received grievances from once friendly acquaintances. They too, believed I was at fault for the end of our relationship, and responsible for slighting my ex in imaginary ways based off the slander she told them. And I believed them.

Almost every piece of literature I've seen concerning Borderline Personality Disorder concerns fault. David Karp, PhD in his work entitled, "The Burden of Sympathy" , briefly discusses what he refers to as the four C's, "I didn't cause it. I can't cure it. I can't control it. All I can do is cope with it."  There are articles publicized through this very website that share similar notions.

So why was fault an important issue for some?

Perhaps they also feel disorientated as I did. Violence is a choice. Violence and a willful action that people choose to inflict onto others. At some point I lost sight of that and blamed myself instead.

[laelle]

I do not accept one bit of the blame for what my ex did to me...  I did my best in this relationship, and put up with more than the average saint would have... .

This sounds like a very narcissistic statement but there is a point to it... .

Why did I feel like I had to be a saint in this relationship?  Why was I willing to sacrifice myself so easily?  This is not fault "It is self awareness"

If I do not take responsibility and become aware of my actions, it is very likely that history could repeat itself.

I dont know about you guys, but my BPD relationship knocked me on my ass and I never want to go there again.

I wanted to "save" him... . the more I saved him, the more he needed saving.  I became bitter because for all my saving it didnt do one damn bit of good.

I got no pay off... . as he was never "saved"

None of this was known at a surface level, I had to dig deep to find it.  That is self awareness.  Understanding your inner motivation.

This isnt about his lies or crazymaking... they are real and not my fault!  He is one sick individual.

Now, the only person that I want to be a knight in shining armor for is ME!

LivingLearning, as I noticed that you were posting all over the board with your own passive aggressiveness, it is quite interesting that you would call someone else out on it.

You were provoking and got what you wanted... . surprised?  

It sounds as if you have been struggling for a while with the part you played in your relationship.  So much so, that you finally just placed it all on your ex's head.  That is perfectly fine to do so... . What ever gets you through the day.

Personal growth, that is what is important here.  Your poor executive control just from posting on this board speaks volumes about the amount of personal growth you have made.

You have been rude and condescending,(not thought provoking as you may see it), and dont deserve much in the way of a goodbye except... . well, Goodbye.

You will probably be back... . they all come back when they want to spit some more poison on to people who are already in pain and grieving.  Who are you helping but yourself?  No one!

[letmeout]

"There is NO excuse for abuse", my counselor said even BPD sufferers know what they are doing when they are being abusive. Mental illness is not an excuse for abuse, there are a lot of people who have a mental illness who don't abuse others.  

One can only think that there is obviously an Abusive Personality Disorder. It can stand alone, or with other disorders.  

[Tolou]

FAULT?

I think it crossed my mind, but no too much.  It isn't anyone's fault in my relationship, it just didn't work out.  I feel that regardless of the disorder or not, my ex and I cared for eachother, loved one another but met at time when neither had the tools to deal with the storm that was ahead of us. I feel in my heart that I tried my best with what I was dealing with, things I have never seen been before in realtionship, but I couldn't take anymore.  She really might have killed herself had I not walked away, or we would have both been miserable.

I can't blame someone or anyone for having a mental illness, in my realtiosnhip, I can't put someone at fault for me staying or having difficultly after a seperation no matter how long it has been.  I don't think I am suppose to forget her, and I doubt she will forget me. It's sad to not be with someone who care about and truely believed that you can have a stable future with, but sometimes, realtionships don't workout, and that's okay. As an adult, I can't point my finger and place blame on anyone because of how I cope with whatever went on in the relationship or after.  Even in relationships with healthy people, there are issues that come up and people still deal with them in unhealthy ways.  I think the true journey will begin for many when they stary figuring out their own issues as opposed to trying to label and figure out someone elses.  I see many people in their post say they ex or current partner has BPD, without any actual diagnosis other than their own based on reading a DSM? With that, we can place everyone we know somewhere in the DSM and with that label ourselves as well.  But labeling most people doesn't help them, help is what helps them, I just realized that I couldn't help this person I cared for without losing mymself in the process and thats when I walked away, not because I didn't want to help, but because I couldn't.  I was the trigger, and thats what hurt me, when I realized it was best for both of us to be apart.  That doesn't mean the good things were fake and the bad things were real, it just means were responsible for ourselves and not anyone elses behavior or choices, only our own.

[laelle]

FAULT?

I think it crossed my mind, but no too much.  It isn't anyone's fault in my relationship, it just didn't work out.  I feel that regardless of the disorder or not, my ex and I cared for eachother, loved one another but met at time when neither had the tools to deal with the storm that was ahead of us. I feel in my heart that I tried my best with what I was dealing with, things I have never seen been before in realtionship, but I couldn't take anymore.  She really might have killed herself had I not walked away, or we would have both been miserable.

I can't blame someone or anyone for having a mental illness, in my realtiosnhip, I can't put someone at fault for me staying or having difficultly after a seperation no matter how long it has been.  I don't think I am suppose to forget her, and I doubt she will forget me. It's sad to not be with someone who care about and truely believed that you can have a stable future with, but sometimes, realtionships don't workout, and that's okay. As an adult, I can't point my finger and place blame on anyone because of how I cope with whatever went on in the relationship or after.  Even in relationships with healthy people, there are issues that come up and people still deal with them in unhealthy ways.  I think the true journey will begin for many when they stary figuring out their own issues as opposed to trying to label and figure out someone elses.  I see many people in their post say they ex or current partner has BPD, without any actual diagnosis other than their own based on reading a DSM? With that, we can place everyone we know somewhere in the DSM and with that label ourselves as well.  But labeling most people doesn't help them, help is what helps them, I just realized that I couldn't help this person I cared for without losing mymself in the process and thats when I walked away, not because I didn't want to help, but because I couldn't.  I was the trigger, and thats what hurt me, when I realized it was best for both of us to be apart.  That doesn't mean the good things were fake and the bad things were real, it just means were responsible for ourselves and not anyone elses behavior or choices, only our own.

beautifully said.

[maternal]

FAULT?

I think it crossed my mind, but no too much.  It isn't anyone's fault in my relationship, it just didn't work out... .  I was the trigger, and thats what hurt me, when I realized it was best for both of us to be apart.  That doesn't mean the good things were fake and the bad things were real, it just means were responsible for ourselves and not anyone elses behavior or choices, only our own.

Excellent post.  Great perspective.

[Skip]

David Karp, PhD in his work entitled, "The Burden of Sympathy" , briefly discusses what he refers to as the four C's, "I didn't cause it. I can't cure it. I can't control it. All I can do is cope with it."

Karp is an interesting author as he is a sociologist and looks at things from that broad perspective.  He also had severe mental illness in his family so he lived it first hand.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=225349.

And on the Stop Walking on Eggshells cover it says "It's not your fault".

https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/stop-walking-on-eggshells

OK.  Good references.

If I'm a mother of a mentally ill child, I will likely feel that I created the mental illness in my child.  Or if my mother blamed me as a child for making her crazy, I will likely believe my mom.  Or my spouse may have tagged me as the cause for her having an affair - and as bumbling as we are at relationships, we might think that is credible.

So, clearly the mother, the daughter, and the husband need to hear it - you did not create another persons mental illness.

OK. Logical. Healthy.  Everyone is on board with this, I'm sure.

But how far do we go beyond this?  And are some of those paths not so healthy?

Randi and I have commiserated many times about how some people have flipped "it's all my fault".  all the way around to mean "it's all their fault".  But is that possibly true?  Is a mentally ill person responsible for the genes they inherit or the abuses they were subject to?  Is that logical?  Healthy?

Some people have flipped it to be "I did everything that could be done in the relationship as ______ (parent, husband, etc.)".  But is that really true in your case (an individual's question, not a question of the group - we all lived different relationships)? Does everything that went wrong fall to the other person?  

And lastly, is making any of this about fault going to take us to a better place in life.  Isn't David and Randi's point that we need to shed the burden of fault and culpability (a sincere question)?

Why?  So we can see ourself.

In my case, for examle:

Her stuff:  There were some very hurtful things experienced in my relationship.  And some of them really came out of the blue.  That was her stuff.  I don't really give that much thought anymore - although it really hurt at the time.  

My stuff:To my best analysis, there wasn't a lot on my part as "out of the blue - except for one situational thing that I underestimated how stressing it was. So this is on me.

Our stuff: She handled me poorly when I had needs (blah, blah, typical story).  It took me a while to realize that I didn't handle her well either.  The way I handled adversity in the relationship was not good.   I made it worse.  I increasingly let smaller and smaller thing get to me, I got defensive, I withdrew, I justified, I clung, I developed bad boundaries.   We had a cycle of conflict emerge in the relationship and once the wheel started turning, I was putting as much spin on it as her.

I don't do this anymore.

Detachment Stage #3

Examine and embrace what has been of value in this experience. It may be the foundation of a more fulfilling future.

PROCESSING [Stage 3]: In the third stage of detachment, you begin to become aware of what has been useful in the journey you've just taken, in the task or relationship or life stage you're working with, regardless of how it all turned out.