May need to remove kids

[KateCat]

Formflier,

You've had a terrible shock and it is no wonder you have a strong desire to return to something more normal. It is easy and natural to be lulled quickly into FOG at this time. Maybe you are now not seeing this as a strong possibility:

I suspect she has been getting ready to file for divorce for a while. She maneuvered to get access to the books, then the car titles, she moved $30K out of your joint checking, and not too subtle -- she has been threatening divorce. You mention her sister (possibly BPD as well) has had a scorched earth divorce and may be coaching your wife.

It's greatly to your wife's advantage at this time to lie low, as you lull yourself back into denial. She is likely to be taking your measure very keenly now, as her objective is control. Your objective may not be so clear to you.

"Beware. Be aware."

(O.K., I'm going to add the thing that really concerns me. I think she does suffer from psychosis, at least intermittently, and the kids will remain at great emotional risk as long as she remains the primary, unsupervised caretaker.)

[Grey Kitty]

Very similar to what I did over the massive spanking.  I knew that wasn't a threat... it actually happened... . and I WILL NEVER sit by and be passive about that again.  It was a trend as well... . her discipline has been getting progressively more unreasonable, rage fueled and harsh.

Agree with your assessment of the trend. Given your situation today, what have you seen that convinces you it is shifting back the other direction?

And given your current circumstances (removed from the household, temporarily) your non-legal options to prevent this sort of action again are zilch. And the likelihood of hit happening when you don't see it is much higher now.

So... if I get written agreement for no more physical punishment... . I think I am good... . for the moment.  That was what I was going for in marriage counseling.  She weakly said no punishment... . but nothing in writing.  She of course said she always keeps her word... . BS.

I don't get why you are ready to believe what she will put in writing, but not what she says verbally.

Is this something in YOUR internal believe structure, or is it something about her?

[DreamGirl]

What are the laws in your area when it comes to corporal punishment?

[livednlearned]

What are the laws in your area when it comes to corporal punishment?

I'm in North Carolina

Formflier, I did a quick look at case law in NC. Courts are looking for serious physical injury -- in an appeals case, beatings with a belt that resulted in bruises were not treated as child abuse.

I'm not a lawyer, but found this:

Section 7B-101(1) of the North Carolina Juvenile Code defines an abused juvenile as one whose parent has “inflicted upon the juvenile a serious physical injury.”

Allegations of abuse and neglect must be proven by clear and convincing evidence.  N.C. Gen.Stat. § 7B-805 (2005).  “In a non-jury [abuse and] neglect adjudication, the trial court's findings of fact supported by clear and convincing competent evidence are deemed conclusive, even where some evidence supports contrary findings.”

The case goes on to say that whippings and spanking that results in a bruise is not considered serious physical injury. In the case I found, the court found clear and convincing competence evidence of abuse, but the appellate court overturned and remanded the ruling.

After DSS does an investigation (let's say they conclude there was no evidence of child abuse), what are your next steps?

[catnap]

Abuse includes infliction of a serious physical injury by other than accidental means; creating a substantial risk of such injury by other than accidental means; and using cruel or grossly inappropriate procedures or devices to modify behavior. Juvenile § 7B-101(1). [Civil Code]

North Carolina does allow parents to physically discipline their children. Following is the guidance that is within our Child Protective Services Manual for county Department of Social Services, parents and individuals to review and follow:

    "Parents have a right to discipline their children. Done appropriately, spanking and the use of corporal punishment are not considered child abuse. Corporal punishment, commonly referred to as physical discipline or spanking, is the application of physical force, including striking with the hand or with an object, against the body of another. However, significant trauma and tissue damage, such as bruises, welts, or lacerations may be signs of child neglect (inappropriate discipline) or child abuse, depending on the extent of the injuries.

    Factors to consider regarding bruising include: location and severity of the injury, child's age and developmental stage, and whether the bruises are consistent with normal play. Injuries such as these, not resulting from an accident, must be assessed. A definition of significant trauma is any injury beyond temporary redness of the skin. A practical guideline to use is that any inflicted injury which lasts more than 24 hours constitutes significant injury and requires an investigation."

    Thank you for contacting the DSS Website with your inquiry. If there is a need to contact this office again, I can be reached by phone at the number listed below or via e-mail.

    Valarie J.

    North Carolina Division of Social Services

www.kidjacked.com/legal/spanking_law.asp#ncarolina  Link to civil code: www.ncleg.net/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_7b/gs_7b-101.html

[ForeverDad]

So... if I get written agreement for no more physical punishment... . I think I am good... . for the moment.

She is not going to take responsibility for any of this.  She may pretend to for a bit, then it will go back to the old status quo.

The disadvantage to waiting is that the recordings/incidents will become "stale" in the eyes of the law.  Your L can tell you how it works where you live.

BS is right, she will not stop.  She may get more covert in her "punishments".  Verbal abuse should be mentioned also as part of her promise.  I would not count on your children telling you about stuff if you are not there.

Right now you have something you almost certainly won't have the next time around if she plays her cards right - leverage.  You have leverage now because you have documentation that she's lost self-control when punishing the children.  Yes, it may not be enough to get you custody, but it might be enough to get a good Custody Evaluation done, it might be enough to start you off with equal time with the children, it might be enough for the court to grant you as a father a temporary order with more authority with the children than it would otherwise have done if you didn't have this incident at hand.  All I'm saying is that if you don't have an 'edge' or leverage then you'll likely face starting out being an alternate weekend father at best.

My fear:  Next time - and there will be a next incident of something - she'll make sure you're the one looking worse than her.  Part rejection, part retaliation, part projection, etc.

As quoted above, this recent incident means something now, maybe a 'concern' even if it is not considered child abuse, but a few weeks or months from now or if there's some settlement agreement now, then anyone looking back at it will consider it resolved, "stale" or not actionable.  Maybe it would count for history but don't hold your breath.

Apparently there is some question whether this will be considered or ruled child abuse.  Maybe all that will happen is that someone wags their finger at her this time.  BUT right now you look better than her, and that status is something that will dissipate over time

We can't tell you to divorce or to reconcile.  That's your decision based on all input including your lawyer's advice.  However, we can identify the risks we and our other members have experienced.  We see the all-too-familiar patterns and risks.  Whether you'll face them, a few or a lot, no one knows but the odds are high that much of what we've written applies in your case.

[Matt]

Wow - lots of good discussion here - kind of like drinking from a garden hose - maybe too much to take in all at once.  I'm hoping this thread is helping you, Formflier, and maybe others too.

But I'll add a couple of thoughts in case they might be helpful... .

First, about the likelihood that someone who has a serious psychological problem (like BPD) will change her behavior in a significant way:

I think it is a mistake to take any commitment she may make seriously, whether it is written or verbal, even if another party witnesses it, unless it also includes the steps which are needed for her to be able to change her behavior:  diagnosis and long-term treatment.

What I mean is, if you can convince your cat to act like a dog - get your cat to sign a promise to greet you at the door when you get home from work, wagging its tale - that's great.  But a cat is still a cat, not a dog, and your cat's behavior is going to revert to what is "normal" for a cat.  She might be able to play-act for a while but your wife is no more able to think and act right than your cat is to act like a dog - it's just not who and what she is.

If her problem is purely psychological - for example, twisted thinking due to early-life trauma - and if she is diagnosed as such - BPD or another psychological disorder (or more than one, which is common) - she can benefit from the right kind of talk-therapy, and learn to un-twist her thinking, and control her behavior.  It's very difficult and takes time and commitment, but it can work.

(It is possible that her problems may not all be purely psychological - there may be some problem that can only be treated with medication, not talk-therapy alone.  Then her promises to change her behavior may be even less likely to come true, without the right treatment.)

What can't work (in my layman's view) is just gritting her teeth and willing herself to think and act right.  When she gets upset - and she probably gets upset for reasons that have nothing to do with you or the kids, or anything that's here and now - she probably gets upset due to stuff that is deep within her - when she gets upset, she is probably not capable of thinking constructively or controlling her behavior.  She has to un-learn patterns of thinking that seem normal to her, and learn new ones;  in effect she has to (with the right help) take her own personality apart, and fix the problem which is under several layers of stuff.  She can't do that without the right professional help, so she will continue to act out, and it's more likely that her acting out toward you will get worse, not better, unless she gets the right help.

So... . telling you "I won't do such-and-such" or even signing a paper that says that - my wife made various promises and signed various documents - they meant nothing, because she is not able to think sensibly and control her behavior when she is under stress, and she is pretty much always under stress because of stuff that's inside her.

Second thought... . stuff to read... .

Others have suggested "Stop Walking On Eggshells" (written by the woman who founded this site, by the way), ":)ivorce Poison" and "Splitting" - all great.  I would also suggest Christine Lawson's "Understanding The Borderline Mother".  It's expensive and depressing - maybe wait til you are up to it! - but could help you understand and show others, like your attorney, what is at stake.  Also tons of footnotes to research which shows the long-term impact of a mother's BPD on the kids, which may be very relevant to your case as it plays out.

[formflier]

I agree about the danger. 

From watching the rest of the family dynamics... . I think it is a big deal to the women in the extended family that they don't file.  They act up bad enough to get the hubby to file... then play the victim.  Can you believe that blah blah blah filed on me.

I've got more time to chat with attorney tomorrow. 

Need to get a clear legal understanding of spanking laws in North Carolina.

Need to get a clear legal understanding of the legal separation laws in North Carolina.  I think that technically you can't file for divorce until a year separation.  Don't know if that changes tactics or not.

At this point I really only have one clear goal... . the rest of my goals depend on what else happens. 

I want to put some written documentation in place... . through DSS (or if they won't... . the court... I guess) that spanking or any kind of physical punishment is over in my family... . until further notice.  Right now there is only a verbal committment.  She swears she keeps her word... .

Formflier,

You've had a terrible shock and it is no wonder you have a strong desire to return to something more normal. It is easy and natural to be lulled quickly into FOG at this time. Maybe you are now not seeing this as a strong possibility:

I suspect she has been getting ready to file for divorce for a while. She maneuvered to get access to the books, then the car titles, she moved $30K out of your joint checking, and not too subtle -- she has been threatening divorce. You mention her sister (possibly BPD as well) has had a scorched earth divorce and may be coaching your wife.

It's greatly to your wife's advantage at this time to lie low, as you lull yourself back into denial. She is likely to be taking your measure very keenly now, as her objective is control. Your objective may not be so clear to you.

"Beware. Be aware."

(O.K., I'm going to add the thing that really concerns me. I think she does suffer from psychosis, at least intermittently, and the kids will remain at great emotional risk as long as she remains the primary, unsupervised caretaker.)

[formflier]

Hmmm... . well... in general I'm a big fan of if you say it... . you'll put it in writing. 

With a uBPDw... that always says... . I never said that... . I guess that goes on steroids.

In writing eliminates "confusion" about what was said.

I hope it is never needed... . but if it continues to get worse (as I suspect)... . that if I have it in writing... . and she does it again... . then I start to have more leverage to "prove" to the world that she can't be trusted.

Thoughts on my thinking on this?

Very similar to what I did over the massive spanking.  I knew that wasn't a threat... it actually happened... . and I WILL NEVER sit by and be passive about that again.  It was a trend as well... . her discipline has been getting progressively more unreasonable, rage fueled and harsh.

Agree with your assessment of the trend. Given your situation today, what have you seen that convinces you it is shifting back the other direction?

And given your current circumstances (removed from the household, temporarily) your non-legal options to prevent this sort of action again are zilch. And the likelihood of hit happening when you don't see it is much higher now.

So... if I get written agreement for no more physical punishment... . I think I am good... . for the moment.  That was what I was going for in marriage counseling.  She weakly said no punishment... . but nothing in writing.  She of course said she always keeps her word... . BS.

I don't get why you are ready to believe what she will put in writing, but not what she says verbally.

Is this something in YOUR internal believe structure, or is it something about her?

[formflier]

Two parts of the incident were shocking to me... . and I hope shocking to any that listen.

The loudness of the whacks.

And the screaming of the kids as they were being jerked around and whipped... . Three kids screaming at once... . me asking her to please stop... . and an enraged voice saying NO... THEY ARE GETTING A WHIPPING.

Yeah... . I need to think through the after DSS thing... . who knows. 

Anyone in North Carolina... or anywhere ever heard of an agreement about no corporal punishment... . when there have been concerns of one parent?

In the past... . the wife and I would challenge each other and talk prior to any punishment... . physical or otherwise.  We wanted to make sure that we were calm... were seeing this clearly... . and that we were punishing in a consisten manner.

What are the laws in your area when it comes to corporal punishment?

I'm in North Carolina

Formflier, I did a quick look at case law in NC. Courts are looking for serious physical injury -- in an appeals case, beatings with a belt that resulted in bruises were not treated as child abuse.

I'm not a lawyer, but found this:

Section 7B-101(1) of the North Carolina Juvenile Code defines an abused juvenile as one whose parent has “inflicted upon the juvenile a serious physical injury.”

Allegations of abuse and neglect must be proven by clear and convincing evidence.  N.C. Gen.Stat. § 7B-805 (2005).  “In a non-jury [abuse and] neglect adjudication, the trial court's findings of fact supported by clear and convincing competent evidence are deemed conclusive, even where some evidence supports contrary findings.”

The case goes on to say that whippings and spanking that results in a bruise is not considered serious physical injury. In the case I found, the court found clear and convincing competence evidence of abuse, but the appellate court overturned and remanded the ruling.

After DSS does an investigation (let's say they conclude there was no evidence of child abuse), what are your next steps?

[formflier]

I suppose I would be arguining that this was not being done appropriately.

Due to jerking around, rage, screaming... .

Abuse includes infliction of a serious physical injury by other than accidental means; creating a substantial risk of such injury by other than accidental means; and using cruel or grossly inappropriate procedures or devices to modify behavior. Juvenile § 7B-101(1). [Civil Code]

North Carolina does allow parents to physically discipline their children. Following is the guidance that is within our Child Protective Services Manual for county Department of Social Services, parents and individuals to review and follow:

    "Parents have a right to discipline their children. Done appropriately, spanking and the use of corporal punishment are not considered child abuse. Corporal punishment, commonly referred to as physical discipline or spanking, is the application of physical force, including striking with the hand or with an object, against the body of another. However, significant trauma and tissue damage, such as bruises, welts, or lacerations may be signs of child neglect (inappropriate discipline) or child abuse, depending on the extent of the injuries.

    Factors to consider regarding bruising include: location and severity of the injury, child's age and developmental stage, and whether the bruises are consistent with normal play. Injuries such as these, not resulting from an accident, must be assessed. A definition of significant trauma is any injury beyond temporary redness of the skin. A practical guideline to use is that any inflicted injury which lasts more than 24 hours constitutes significant injury and requires an investigation."

    Thank you for contacting the DSS Website with your inquiry. If there is a need to contact this office again, I can be reached by phone at the number listed below or via e-mail.

    Valarie J.

    North Carolina Division of Social Services

www.kidjacked.com/legal/spanking_law.asp#ncarolina  Link to civil code: www.ncleg.net/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_7b/gs_7b-101.html

[formflier]

OK... so I think I see the question or thought that I didn't explain.

Reconciling or "going back"... . ain't going to happen... . UNLESS... there is clear and convincing evidence that there is a pattern of compliance in some form of Therapy. 

I think it will be obvious.  For past 5 years as soon as a counselor gets close to something... . she blows up... storms out and is "done".

The DSS "comply with counselor" rule that was part of the safe plan... . may be help here... . that means she is required to stay with same guy.  With every new counselor "it" comes out quicker... . this may be good because then the issue (BPD) will be out and treatment will start... . or she will bolt... . and draw the ire of DSS for skipping out.  I obviously still have a place in me that hopes for treatment.

But... . I'm NOT GETTING BACK ON THE CRAZY TRAIN... .



In all seriousness... . I had a good session with my individual T today.  I have been looking at myself as a buffer between her and kids.

I have a 1 year old.

Do the math... . 17 more years as a buffer... . even if it doesn't get any worse... . there is no way I can do that. 

I could see myself thinking if I had teenagers... . that maybe another year or two... I'm tough... . that kind of thing.

But not 17... . and if untreated... . it will get worse... . or so everyone says.

So... if I get written agreement for no more physical punishment... . I think I am good... . for the moment.

She is not going to take responsibility for any of this.  She may pretend to for a bit, then it will go back to the old status quo.

The disadvantage to waiting is that the recordings/incidents will become "stale" in the eyes of the law.  Your L can tell you how it works where you live.

BS is right, she will not stop.  She may get more covert in her "punishments".  Verbal abuse should be mentioned also as part of her promise.  I would not count on your children telling you about stuff if you are not there.

Right now you have something you almost certainly won't have the next time around if she plays her cards right - leverage.  You have leverage now because you have documentation that she's lost self-control when punishing the children.  Yes, it may not be enough to get you custody, but it might be enough to get a good Custody Evaluation done, it might be enough to start you off with equal time with the children, it might be enough for the court to grant you as a father a temporary order with more authority with the children than it would otherwise have done if you didn't have this incident at hand.  All I'm saying is that if you don't have an 'edge' or leverage then you'll likely face starting out being an alternate weekend father at best.

My fear:  Next time - and there will be a next incident of something - she'll make sure you're the one looking worse than her.  Part rejection, part retaliation, part projection, etc.

As quoted above, this recent incident means something now, maybe a 'concern' even if it is not considered child abuse, but a few weeks or months from now or if there's some settlement agreement now, then anyone looking back at it will consider it resolved, "stale" or not actionable.  Maybe it would count for history but don't hold your breath.

Apparently there is some question whether this will be considered or ruled child abuse.  Maybe all that will happen is that someone wags their finger at her this time.  BUT right now you look better than her, and that status is something that will dissipate over time

We can't tell you to divorce or to reconcile.  That's your decision based on all input including your lawyer's advice.  However, we can identify the risks we and our other members have experienced.  We see the all-too-familiar patterns and risks.  Whether you'll face them, a few or a lot, no one knows but the odds are high that much of what we've written applies in your case.

[Matt]

I think you are right to focus on corporal punishment, but I don't know if there is anything that will keep a parent from dealing with the kids as she thinks best, when they are with her.  All the ideas discussed here seem like good issues to learn about - the law about corporal punishment and whether a written agreement between the parents could be enforced somehow.

Let me suggest another aspect which is super-important:  Parenting time.

Ideally you will get temporary orders somehow - either by filing for divorce, or for a legal separation, or by some other legal means - so the kids will be with you most of the time, and with their mom only a little, and only with professional supervision.  That's what might be best, but it isn't very likely.

Next best might be 50/50 time, established by the court.

Next best might be with you less than half the time, but regularly, and established by the court.

Without some parenting plan established by the court, it is likely that you won't see your kids much, and they will be subject to more alienation.  Things will get worse.

This is the issue I think you should focus on most.  If you don't have court-ordered time with the kids, your wife will probably do whatever she wants and there won't be much you can do about it.

You need to establish a safe, calm, quiet home for the kids, even if they are only with you part of the time.  You need to be their rock in stormy waters.  You probably can't make those waters calm.

[Grey Kitty]

I hope it is never needed... . but if it continues to get worse (as I suspect)... . that if I have it in writing... . and she does it again... . then I start to have more leverage to "prove" to the world that she can't be trusted.

Thoughts on my thinking on this?

I don't see much point in it. *IF* things continue to get worse, your only remedies will be through the legal system.

I am not a lawyer, and haven't even personally been in a courtroom... . but I don't see the agreement itself really helping you in the sort of family court cases I've seen described on this board.

I see nothing wrong with a written agreement. I just don't see it as being important enough to make it your primary focus.

I completely agree that stopping her from beating (spanking?) your children like she did last time IS a priority.

Reconciling or "going back"... . ain't going to happen... . UNLESS... there is clear and convincing evidence that there is a pattern of compliance in some form of Therapy. 

This also makes sense to me.

[Turkish]

In all seriousness... . I had a good session with my individual T today.  I have been looking at myself as a buffer between her and kids.

I have a 1 year old.

Do the math... . 17 more years as a buffer... . even if it doesn't get any worse... . there is no way I can do that. 

formflier, I thought similarly (and my uBPDx was not near the rager like you). But then I thought to myself, "how damaging would it be to the kids (S3 and D1 when this started last summer) to see this dynamic as a normal relationship between two people? And how will it affect their future relationships, not just the romantic ones?"

The mother of my children started mirroring her own parents' dysfunctional relationship more and more, with the genders reversed (she was like her dad... . I was the long-suffering stable parent who wanted to protect the kids, or our family unit. At the end, I severed it, because I did not want this dynamic to pass onto another generation.

With my time, I can be who I want to be without walking on eggshells, afraid of triggering her, because that's what we become, their biggest triggers. She was angriest in the months before we left, and did take it out on the children. She actually got better once she left, because she was away from her trigger. Of course the kids when they get older will become bigger triggers, as I did for my BPD-like mother when I got older. I had no stable parent to balance that out.

I'm not telling you what to do, but just sharing my perspective on my family.

[catnap]

"In the past... . the wife and I would challenge each other and talk prior to any punishment... . physical or otherwise.  We wanted to make sure that we were calm... were seeing this clearly... . and that we were punishing in a consistent manner."

When did that begin to change? 

[Boss302]

You need to establish a safe, calm, quiet home for the kids, even if they are only with you part of the time.  You need to be their rock in stormy waters.  You probably can't make those waters calm.

Wow, exactly.

[formflier]

From talking to DSS on the phone... . it seems like they looked at kids.  Saw no marks.  Kids say they are fearful of Daddy... . and the make their initial triage assessment.

I should have just played the recording from my laptop without asking.  If it wasn't shocking to them... . it wouldn't have made it worse.  I don't think... .

I'm trying to get in front of DSS at new county today to get the recording listened to.

What are the laws in your area when it comes to corporal punishment?

I'm in North Carolina

Formflier, I did a quick look at case law in NC. Courts are looking for serious physical injury -- in an appeals case, beatings with a belt that resulted in bruises were not treated as child abuse.

I'm not a lawyer, but found this:

Section 7B-101(1) of the North Carolina Juvenile Code defines an abused juvenile as one whose parent has “inflicted upon the juvenile a serious physical injury.”

Allegations of abuse and neglect must be proven by clear and convincing evidence.  N.C. Gen.Stat. § 7B-805 (2005).  “In a non-jury [abuse and] neglect adjudication, the trial court's findings of fact supported by clear and convincing competent evidence are deemed conclusive, even where some evidence supports contrary findings.”

The case goes on to say that whippings and spanking that results in a bruise is not considered serious physical injury. In the case I found, the court found clear and convincing competence evidence of abuse, but the appellate court overturned and remanded the ruling.

After DSS does an investigation (let's say they conclude there was no evidence of child abuse), what are your next steps?

[formflier]

I have been considering this as well... . that staying away will help calm things.

Figuring out "what is best" for the children is tough. 

It's not tough to figure out that the whipping event has to be stopped...

Working through it.

In all seriousness... . I had a good session with my individual T today.  I have been looking at myself as a buffer between her and kids.

I have a 1 year old.

Do the math... . 17 more years as a buffer... . even if it doesn't get any worse... . there is no way I can do that. 

formflier, I thought similarly (and my uBPDx was not near the rager like you). But then I thought to myself, "how damaging would it be to the kids (S3 and D1 when this started last summer) to see this dynamic as a normal relationship between two people? And how will it affect their future relationships, not just the romantic ones?"

The mother of my children started mirroring her own parents' dysfunctional relationship more and more, with the genders reversed (she was like her dad... . I was the long-suffering stable parent who wanted to protect the kids, or our family unit. At the end, I severed it, because I did not want this dynamic to pass onto another generation.

With my time, I can be who I want to be without walking on eggshells, afraid of triggering her, because that's what we become, their biggest triggers. She was angriest in the months before we left, and did take it out on the children. She actually got better once she left, because she was away from her trigger. Of course the kids when they get older will become bigger triggers, as I did for my BPD-like mother when I got older. I had no stable parent to balance that out.

I'm not telling you what to do, but just sharing my perspective on my family.

[formflier]

I'll give a bit more of an answer that asked for.

Looking back 15-20 years... . maybe I can see hints... . but somehting would pop up... . like a weird argument and then nothing would happen for months... maybe even a year.  I'm Christian... . we all have faults... . I am big on forgiveness... .   Forgive and forget and move on.

I'm probably a bit extreme on being "logical"... . people say I must have a spreadsheet in my head.  So... the nature of those odd arguments that I remember is that they were non-sensical... . relating things that have no relation and/or no cause and effect... . claiming to know things you can't possibley know as fact.

Well... . I'm also military... . so deployments and all that.  She knew she could hold it together and then I would be gone she could relax... etc etc (I didn't know this at the time... this is my analysis now).  Then she would miss me... homecoming was great... . a long "white" phase... . and probably about the time I was starting to turn black to her... . off I went again.

Long distance has always been good or easy for us.

Well... 2009 there was a natural disaster and we were out of house for about 6 months.  I was on shore duty at time.  Very stressful confusing time.

We lived with another family that had a massive house.  As we moved out... . she started accusing me of "looking" at the other lady... . wanting her... . all sorts of crazy ass stuff.  While there have been ups and downs since then... . the general trend line has been worse.

She is now in early 40s

We retired a couple years ago and started a "normal" life.  I don't leave now.  My guess is that this is incredibly stressfull for her. 

Now to the exact answer to the question on discipline.  I would say in the past year that she has started cutting me out.  I'm guessing about the same time that I started to get really uncomfortable with conflict in the house... . and wanting to make sure my PTSD didn't play a part. 

I haven't done any corporal punishment in maybe 6 months.  I don't remember exactly... . and didn't make a big deal of it.  I just started using more time outs and groundings.  I never issued a big statement about not doing it.


The scary stuff has been happening for a few months now.  Maybe every 2-3 weeks and a general trend towards scarier.  I was trying to SET and validate and all that... . because by now I knew about BPD.  Well... . I think as she realized she was loosing control of me... . she focused more on kids. 

I really never defined what I figured would be unacceptable... . just figured I would know it when I saw it or heard it.  I made a mistake by not researching laws about corporal punishment 

Well... . that about brings us to current time.

Thoughts?

"In the past... . the wife and I would challenge each other and talk prior to any punishment... . physical or otherwise.  We wanted to make sure that we were calm... were seeing this clearly... . and that we were punishing in a consistent manner."

When did that begin to change? 

[DreamGirl]

From an outside perspective,  with the kids not having marks, is there a possibility that this will be considered a difference in opinion as far as disciplining the children?

My exH spanks, I do not. I had no control over what happened when I wasn't there - and as long as he was within the confines of the law, it didn't matter how I feel about it. Divorce invokes a "no longer have to agree" mentality.

I just wonder if this claim is going to help or hurt your case. Giving it to you straight here, formflier. With the initial visit resulting in the way it did, it might not be the best idea to pursue it?

How is she otherwise as a mother? Are the kids bathed, fed? Their education?  

[Boss302]

How is she otherwise as a mother? Are the kids bathed, fed? Their education?  

Exactly.

[ForeverDad]

From talking to DSS on the phone... . it seems like they looked at kids.  Saw no marks.  Kids say they are fearful of Daddy... . and they make their initial triage assessment.

I should have just played the recording from my laptop without asking.  If it wasn't shocking to them... . it wouldn't have made it worse.  I don't think... .

I'm trying to get in front of DSS at new county today to get the recording listened to.

I think the point here is that the DSS made an assessment - that father leave - was based on what they saw and heard from the kids.  It's clear that the children are not just failing to disclose all, they're lying.  And DSS accepted it on face value.  SO what you want is that they realize they're not volunteering to reveal the entire situation.  Whether it is 'actionable' or not, you at least want the truth out there front and center.  Likely that would be enough to have them do at least one of the following: (1) withdraw their initial recommendation that father leave, (2) recommend the children get long term counseling and (3) recommend a custody evaluation if the family is separating or divorcing.

Note that the last one, a custody evaluation, probably can't or won't be done if there is no case in family court such as a divorce.

Some psychology on children at different ages... . Many pwBPD do okay with small children - the infants and toddlers need a lot of case.  But as the kids grow older they want and need a gradually increasing measure of independence and decision making.  So more and more it will become an issue with the pwBPD parent who must control and dictate not just on whims and moods of the moment but also whenever independence starts rearing its head.  So you have increasing conflict as the kids get older.  The children can react differently over time, some being victims and appeasers, some mirroring the pwBPD, after all, that's the example seen from the parents.  But a common response is that when outsiders walk in and ask what's happening, the children are more likely to protect the worst parent since that's the one they fear displeasing the most.  They've learned that when the outsiders leave, they're left with the parents and they'll get punished for any openness and honesty.  Also, there is some Stockholm Syndrome there too so even if not punished, they feel an emotional need to protect the parent with poor behaviors.

[livednlearned]

Need to get a clear legal understanding of the legal separation laws in North Carolina.  I think that technically you can't file for divorce until a year separation.  Don't know if that changes tactics or not.

Ignore the significance of the actual divorce being granted -- it is somewhat of a technicality in our cases.

When you have kids, the most important document is the temporary order. Talk through the following with your lawyer, but it goes something like this.

One of you would file a divorce complaint. The other files a counter complaint. These are somewhat ceremonial documents -- my judge didn't even read them. Everyone expects these documents to be inflammatory to some extent, even in low-conflict divorces.

Next, the lawyers will suggest mediation. Start a new thread on this board if you want input about the pros and cons of mediation with a BPD spouse.

In mediation, let's say you are able to settle the financial stuff, but not the custody, for example. Anything that isn't settled will go before a judge. Regardless of whether the two of you can decide on what happens with the kids, there will be some kind of visitation schedule put into place. This is the beginning of the status quo schedule that the courts will look at -- in general, they want everything to stay normal for the kids as much as possible. Also, they don't care at all how the two of you feel about each other. They expect you to be antagonistic. But if your antagonism impacts the kids, then they start to pay attention. I have found they don't care about antagonism prior to filing about divorce. They take notice when it starts to show up as a pattern in their court room. That can be hard to see if there are two reasonable lawyers filtering things.  

If custody has not been determined in mediation, any manner of things might happen. A custody evalutor might be assigned to your case, or a guardian ad litem. Counseling might be ordered for the kids. Both of you might go through psychiatric evaluations. This can take a long time, probably over a year if your courts are backlogged, and longer if your wife sees there are benefits to filing continuances. She may go through several lawyers, each of which will request time to come up to speed on the case. Meanwhile, whatever visitation arrangement and schedule is in place becomes status quo. That's why the very first schedule or visitation arrangement is so critical. They call it temporary, but it doesn't work that way.

So focus on what happens next. The actual legal document divorcing you from your wife is of very little consequence in many ways. What matters is the custody and financial arrangements you agree to, and that will start up within months of filing if not sooner.

[formflier]

When she is normal... . she is great... . when she is enraged... . bad.

DSS in reviewing the recordings now.

At this point... . for the DSS process... . it will play out however it plays out.  I just have to make my best case.

I have recordings of her coaching the kids on what to say to DSS... . "so they won't take you from me"

And the incident itself... where it seems clear she is in a rage.

However... . I really should have thought about the reviewing the law... . or looking for marks sooner.  In NC... . if no mark... . it's ok.

From an outside perspective,  with the kids not having marks, is there a possibility that this will be considered a difference in opinion as far as disciplining the children?

My exH spanks, I do not. I had no control over what happened when I wasn't there - and as long as he was within the confines of the law, it didn't matter how I feel about it. Divorce invokes a "no longer have to agree" mentality.

I just wonder if this claim is going to help or hurt your case. Giving it to you straight here, formflier. With the initial visit resulting in the way it did, it might not be the best idea to pursue it?

How is she otherwise as a mother? Are the kids bathed, fed? Their education?  

[formflier]

Yes... I agree with this.

And they are reviewing a recording of "coaching" the kids on what to say.

My goal here is to so that I acted to protect kids.

Goal is to "force" family to stay in counseling situation that includes counseling for uBPDw.  It will come out farily quickly... . and when she can't bolt from couseling room and say she isn't going to come back... . because that will raise ire of DSS.  Well... . that will be interesting... . I need to be ready for that. 

Not sure how to be ready... . so give me suggestions.

From talking to DSS on the phone... . it seems like they looked at kids.  Saw no marks.  Kids say they are fearful of Daddy... . and they make their initial triage assessment.

I should have just played the recording from my laptop without asking.  If it wasn't shocking to them... . it wouldn't have made it worse.  I don't think... .

I'm trying to get in front of DSS at new county today to get the recording listened to.

I think the point here is that the DSS made an assessment - that father leave - was based on what they saw and heard from the kids.  It's clear that the children are not just failing to disclose all, they're lying.  And DSS accepted it on face value.  SO what you want is that they realize they're not volunteering to reveal the entire situation.  Whether it is 'actionable' or not, you at least want the truth out there front and center.  Likely that would be enough to have them do at least one of the following: (1) withdraw their initial recommendation that father leave, (2) recommend the children get long term counseling and (3) recommend a custody evaluation if the family is separating or divorcing.

Note that the last one, a custody evaluation, probably can't or won't be done if there is no case in family court such as a divorce.

Some psychology on children at different ages... . Many pwBPD do okay with small children - the infants and toddlers need a lot of case.  But as the kids grow older they want and need a gradually increasing measure of independence and decision making.  So more and more it will become an issue with the pwBPD parent who must control and dictate not just on whims and moods of the moment but also whenever independence starts rearing its head.  So you have increasing conflict as the kids get older.  The children can react differently over time, some being victims and appeasers, some mirroring the pwBPD, after all, that's the example seen from the parents.  But a common response is that when outsiders walk in and ask what's happening, the children are more likely to protect the worst parent since that's the one they fear displeasing the most.  They've learned that when the outsiders leave, they're left with the parents and they'll get punished for any openness and honesty.  Also, there is some Stockholm Syndrome there too so even if not punished, they feel an emotional need to protect the parent with poor behaviors.

[ForeverDad]

When she is normal... . she is great... . when she is enraged... . bad.

DSS in reviewing the recordings now.

At this point... . for the DSS process... . it will play out however it plays out.  I just have to make my best case.

I have recordings of her coaching the kids on what to say to DSS... . "so they won't take you from me"

And the incident itself... where it seems clear she is in a rage.

You're doing what you reasonably can.  Be prepared for the children being prepped and coached for anything and everything.  Be prepared for the kids asking, "Why are you doing this to mom?" as though you're the aggressor.  After all, they're children, pardon me for saying this, likely they don't know what a normal family really is, what they've experienced is dysfunction and that is very confusing and misleading to say the least.

You're doing what you reasonably can.  Your children don't expect you to be Superman or Superwoman, leaping tall buildings in a single bound, stopping bullets in your teeth or letting them bounce off your eyeball.  They won't expect you to be perfect.  Don't guilt yourself for not being perfect or for not becoming informed and proactive sooner.  If in the years to come your kids ask, perhaps long after they've grown and gone, ":)id you try to protect me?" then you'll be able to reply, "Yes, I did, I did my reasonable best."

[livednlearned]

However... . I really should have thought about the reviewing the law... . or looking for marks sooner.  In NC... . if no mark... . it's ok.

If DSS doesn't find evidence of child abuse, it doesn't mean that your efforts have been wasted. Going forward, this is now part of the documentation about your efforts to protect the kids. If you file for divorce and the custody machinery starts moving forward, you'll most likely have a custody evaluation done. This is what Matt refers to as shining sunlight on the family dynamics, and if you have competent professionals involved, it can be more challenging for BPD sufferers to present their version of truth.

It can feel very disorienting in the beginning, but there are lots of people here, myself included, who patiently worked through the system until things got better. 

[Matt]

Goal is to "force" family to stay in counseling situation that includes counseling for uBPDw.  It will come out farily quickly... . and when she can't bolt from couseling room and say she isn't going to come back... . because that will raise ire of DSS.  Well... . that will be interesting... . I need to be ready for that.  

With all due respect, I think you may have the wrong goal.

Counseling for all is a very good thing, and it's very valid to look for a way to make sure the kids are getting the help they need - which means confidentiality between each child and the counselor.  It's also very valid to look for ways to help your wife get the help she needs.

Family counseling - everybody together - won't work, because your wife won't be able to participate honestly and constructively until she has been effectively treated.  That means years of intensive talk-therapy for her;  then she might be able to take part in constructive sessions with you and/or the kids.

She presumably has BPD or some other serious disorder.  It can only be treated when it has been diagnosed, and when she has decided that she wants to accept help.

My suggestion for you would be to shift your objectives to things that are more-or-less in your control, which will require you to understand much better how things work where you live (legal stuff I mean).

First, I think it is most important for you to get a court order establishing regular time with the kids.  The longer you are separated from the kids, the worse the alienation will be, and the harder it will be to re-establish good relationships with them.

Second, I think you should focus on getting objective psych evals of both parents, probably as part of a Custody Evaluation.  That will lift this from the mud you are in now - the DSS process which is obviously not thorough, professional or objective - to the level of an objective and thorough evaluation by an experienced professional.  A Ph.D. psychologist who has experience with situations like yours will see through your wife's BS and manipulations of the kids, and will look at all the information available, including the audio evidence.

You can make it go better by gathering all the relevant information to give to the CE when she is appointed.

I think you are still looking for a way to fix this quickly - maybe a few sessions of family therapy for example - and you are far, far beyond that point.

[Rapt Reader]

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