Need some help to keep from doing something I don't want to do

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Yes Tausk, while I agree with you whole heartedly that No contact is the Chemo for these relationships, but not everyone can realistically hold that form immediately, or at all. Sam Vaknin, states in Malignant SelfLove that if you do choose to get in the ring with them, and NO, it's not optimal, this is the way to handle them. I don't believe I spent my relationship "Playing a game" with my exBPDbf. I was painfully exposed, and did not properly protect myself. I should have been more cautious and respected myself more. If you want to call that hedging, or game playing, I believe I abandoned myself, and I regret not having Hedged more. I would've been far better off then "doe eyed optimist". Anyway, maybe just semantics... nite, SMH

[ShakinMyHead]

Yes Tausk, while I agree with you whole heartedly that No contact is the Chemo for these relationships, but not everyone can realistically hold that form immediately, or at all. Sam Vaknin, states in Malignant SelfLove that if you do choose to get in the ring with them, and NO, it's not optimal, this is the way to handle them. I don't believe I spent my relationship "Playing a game" with my exBPDbf. I was painfully exposed, and did not properly protect myself. I should have been more cautious and respected myself more. If you want to call that hedging, or game playing, I believe I abandoned myself, and I regret not having Hedged more. I would've been far better off then "doe eyed optimist". Anyway, maybe just semantics... nite, SMH

[Tausk]

Yes agreed, no contact or very mindful contact is best.   But, the concept of playing them at their own game came from your post.  When we have to engage our exes, it should never be about thinking about how to manipulate the pwBPD or the Disorder.  It's about very mindful interaction with a high degree of awareness while the interaction is occurring and how we are responding.  

To engage in contact so that one can learn the truth about a Facebook-post way in the past and to go in thinking about how to play them at their own game, could be extremely harmful for both parties.  In fact my ex was/is an addiction for me. Every interaction actually drew me in deeper and made it that much harder to get out.  Some people never recover.  Many people lose themselves and their entire existence to a partner, mother, child with the Disorder.

And as far as Sam Vaknin, I know that he's a self proclaimed expert in many fields.  And I know that he professes to have NPD and that's where most of advice is directed.  Therefore, I don't know if his techniques apply to a pwBPD. They are very different Disorders.  

Interaction with our exes should be taken as seriously as cancer. Even mixing up BPD and NPD can have drastically different consequences.   While a pwNPD might swear at you and hate you for an action, a pwBPD might kill themselves.     Over half the people with BPD will make at least one suicide attempt.  

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Suicide/Pages/Causes.aspx

Any interaction with my ex should be extremely necessary, mindful, and taken as seriously as cancer.

With these creatures you must play them with their own game.

Yes Tausk, while I agree with you whole heartedly that No contact is the Chemo for these relationships, but not everyone can realistically hold that form immediately, or at all. Sam Vaknin, states in Malignant SelfLove that if you do choose to get in the ring with them, and NO, it's not optimal, this is the way to handle them. I don't believe I spent my relationship "Playing a game" with my exBPDbf. I was painfully exposed, and did not properly protect myself. I should have been more cautious and respected myself more. If you want to call that hedging, or game playing, I believe I abandoned myself, and I regret not having Hedged more. I would've been far better off then "doe eyed optimist". Anyway, maybe just semantics... nite, SMH

[Mutt]

she told me that someone had sent her husband, as well as her husband's brother, anonymous emails detailing things about our affair.

Do you know this to be fact? Can you trust her that she is telling you the truth? I know that I cannot take my ex for her word, I go directly to the source. She was threatening to take the kids out of daycare because her subsidy was running out, I went to apply for daycare under my name to find out that her subsidy was not running out until summer 2015.  

Later, members of my family started getting facebook messages from fake accounts about the affair (this caused at least one very large argument), and an email went to a website I run citing me personally and telling me not to sleep with her "because she was dirty."

Why are the messages being sent through fake accounts? I sent facebook messages to all of her family and friends because I had gotten advice from a divorce site to not let her change the marriage into something that it is not, to send messages to expose the affair and tell my side of the story. That's before I knew about BPD but I had sent messages under my facebook account because I had nothing to hide. This sounds suspicious that it was sent from fake accounts.

At the time she was freaked out by this and had theories about who it could be: a lesbian woman at work who had fallen in love with her and who's computer she had used to send me messages one time; that woman's girlfriend; her husband's ex; etc.  All of these possibilities seemed sketchy if vaguely plausible (how would they know her brother-in-law's email? Or my website's email? And so forth).

You would know best as to who knows about the email addresses. It could be that she is saying that it is the woman from work, woman's girlfriend and husband and she is distorting or dissociating (lying) It sounds like a form of Triangulation but a bizarre one at that, it would position you as the persecutor and she in the role of the victim but the rescuer would be whom? Her ex husband because she wanted to reconcile and put the blame on you somehow? I'm not sure of all of the players here.

I can understand wanting to know to put it into context in your mind, I share similar experiences as my ex exhibited truly strange behaviors and stories during our r/s and I wanted to make sense of it. I believe she took my SIN# which is the same as SS in the US and had gotten a cellphone to make calls to a sex line and to hide the fact, or it could of been an affair.  A service provider came after me during the r/s through a collections agency for 1700. I found out after the r/s was over  that she had done the same in an old r/s that she liked sex lines when she was lonely. No one has access to that number other than her, I just put the two together.

[BacknthSaddle]

Thank you for asking those questions Mutt.  They are allowing me to reflect on the situation without re-igniting the urge to contact her.  I was so deep into this relationship while it was ongoing that I was unable to seek outside perspectives, and I think that made things dramatically worse, and served to normalize pathological behaviors.

I can't say I know for certain that her husband/husband's brother actually received emails.  I know that I did, a month later.  I will say that when she first started speaking with me and her husband learned he was enraged, so I thought it was very odd that he was able to more or less shrug off these emails without getting angry, just believing they were lies (this is how she said he reacted).  It is suspicious. 

I agree that the fake accounts were odd too.  No one in my family who received these emails would have known who any of these people were, so there was really no need to use a fake account (unless it was her, in which case they would have known).  My ex would have said the person used fake/anonymous accounts because she wouldn't have wanted her name to get back to my ex, with whom she worked (indeed, one of the supposed messages identified the author as a co-worker).  Writing this all down, the situation is so bizarre as to make anything seem plausible.  Which is helpful, because it reinforces how pointless trying to figure any of this out is.

I think she was the persecuted and the rescuer was meant to be me (to save her from her husband).  That is my best guess.  When she realized that I had no desire to swoop in and pull her out of the marriage (which I didn't at the time), then I and my family started getting emails. 

What is amazing about all this to me (and stories others have shared) is how, for me anyway, when I was in the midst of all this I was able to convince myself that this is just stuff that happens in complicated relationships, that it wasn't that abnormal.  Now I put it on paper and I see how bizarre it is, but I'm truly amazed that I was able to convince myself otherwise at the time.   

In any case, as an addendum: I learned that she is going on a trip for the weekend to Atlantic City with a few co-workers, one of whom is this girl who she claimed tried to wreck her marriage and ruin her reputation.  On the one hand it makes me more suspicious that it was my ex all along (how could they still be friends?).  But, regardless of whether it was my ex or not, it just adds confirmation that I was dealing with someone with BPD.  If she is truly still friends with a person who did something like that to her, something is profoundly wrong with her.  And if she did it herself... . something is profoundly wrong. 

Working all of this out with the community has been very therapeutic. 

[mywifecrazy]

In any case, as an addendum: I learned that she is going on a trip for the weekend to Atlantic City with a few co-workers, one of whom is this girl who she claimed tried to wreck her marriage and ruin her reputation.  On the one hand it makes me more suspicious that it was my ex all along (how could they still be friends?).  But, regardless of whether it was my ex or not, it just adds confirmation that I was dealing with someone with BPD.  If she is truly still friends with a person who did something like that to her, something is profoundly wrong with her.  And if she did it herself... . something is profoundly wrong. 

Working all of this out with the community has been very therapeutic. 

You just solved the riddle BITS and answered your original question in this thread.

No matter what you do or don't do... . NO MATTER HOW YOU SLICE IT ... . Something is Profoundly WRONG With HER! And do you really want ANY part of that CRAZINESS back in your life? Its not cold hearted or insensitive to say... . NO!

By the way... . This thread has been therapeutic for me as well. Just change the names BITS and MWC as were in the same boat in sorts... . Thanks for Sharing!

[Mutt]

You're welcome BacknthSaddle.  I agree that Triangulation does not make sense but I do get messages from the ex that depicts me as both persecutor / rescuer. I think this is when she is feeling anxiety and stress from something in personal life or it could be because of her loss of attachment from me. Your ex was triggered wen you where not going to "rescue" her from her husband and the engine that drives BPD is fear of abandonment, she felt threatened.  You were going through a distortion campaign and this is usually underway before we realize that we were in one. You are an intelligent man, I think you need to trust your gut with this one. Albeit, I don't think you'll manage to figure out every piece of the puzzle, when the puzzles are as outlandish as this but this is borderline personality disorder. You are not disordered and cannot think in a distorted perspective thus the confusion that it leaves you in.  It makes us sick if we keep trying to think like the disordered.

I'm speculating but I believe it's her. She's disassociating (lying) and in regards to her coworker and friend it could be that her friend was split "all bad" at that time, when the pendulum swings back to "all good" it leaves people that heard bad things confused because of the denigrating and awful things that they say. Why is she treating this person as if nothing happened after all that was said? The BPD does not recall splitting someone black, it feels like a hangover to them, they can recall something happened but not quite what it was.

You were in the FOG and now you are out of the FOG, you are starting to see things for what they were. You can see the forest for the trees now.  My self esteem, confidence and intuition was eroding slowly over time, this didn't happen overnight, it's subtle and I think that's partly why we leave our guard down. I'm not sure about you but I felt like a different man than before I went into my relationship, now I feel like myself again but stronger because I trust myself and my intuition. While I was in the r/s my intuition was still there but the voice was getting quieter and quieter and I mostly ignored it. Why was I trying to rescue this woman? Why was I trying to apply the same things to try to make this r/s work expecting different results? Really crazy making behavior on my part. I was convincing myself because I was coming at this in a logical and non-disordered mind and could not understand the behaviors and trying to apply logic and reason to something that is not.

I let a lot of things slide, but I was in a toxic relationship and enmeshed with this woman. What made me stay in a toxic relationship is what I had to ask myself so I don't fall into the rabbit hole again with another toxic person or PD.

P.S. I agree this community is therapeutic because we have all been in a relationship that no one understands because we were with the invisible type of BPD. Outsiders looking in may of seen some strange behaviors but they didn't see what happened behind doors that were closed. Where the immature acting out happens. Our side of the story is not reciprocated or understood, often we look like the "crazy" one explaining our side and her side of the story.

[BacknthSaddle]

You just solved the riddle BITS and answered your original question in this thread.

No matter what you do or don't do... . NO MATTER HOW YOU SLICE IT ... . Something is Profoundly WRONG With HER! And do you really want ANY part of that CRAZINESS back in your life? Its not cold hearted or insensitive to say... . NO!

By the way... . This thread has been therapeutic for me as well. Just change the names BITS and MWC as were in the same boat in sorts... . Thanks for Sharing!

Right on MWC.  You're exactly right.  Even if it wasn't her per se, the fact that she's surrounded by so many crazy people that the SEVERAL of them could have plausibly done it should have set off deafening alarms. 

It still amazing me that, even in the most absurd of our stories, others can find elements to which they can relate.  The patterns are universal. 

[BacknthSaddle]

You were going through a distortion campaign and this is usually underway before we realize that we were in one.

I haven't thought much about distortion campaigns, but I think you are right.  In retrospect, I think a lot of my ex's "lies" were actually dramatic distortions of real-ish events.  Explaining why she didn't perceive them as lies.  A trivial but I think salient example: when telling stories about people I didn't know, she would often slightly exaggerate their ages, or how long something lasted, etc.  Later, when I would bring a person up again and mention his age, she would correct me down.  This of course had the effects of making me feel like I hadn't been listening or paying attention until I figured out what was going on. 

Albeit, I don't think you'll manage to figure out every piece of the puzzle, when the puzzles are as outlandish as this but this is borderline personality disorder.

I agree.  What's been helpful about this process is realizing exactly how outlandish the whole thing was, regardless of how it happened. 

I'm speculating but I believe it's her. She's disassociating (lying) and in regards to her coworker and friend it could be that her friend was split "all bad" at that time, when the pendulum swings back to "all good" it leaves people that heard bad things confused because of the denigrating and awful things that they say. Why is she treating this person as if nothing happened after all that was said? The BPD does not recall splitting someone black, it feels like a hangover to them, they can recall something happened but not quite what it was.

I like this interpretation of the connection between dissociation, splitting, and lying.  When my ex was dysregulated once, she started telling me how everyone she dated ended up hating her.  When later we split and she wanted to be friends, which I thought would not be advisable, I said "even you said you aren't friends with the people you dated because they all end up hating you."  She initially denied ever saying it, and then, when I insisted, she said "I was joking."  Obviously this couldn't have made less sense to me, trying to understand things rationally.  But I think you're right that she just couldn't recall this moment, genuinely, like she was blacked out drunk, and was just trying to fill in the blanks. 

 

My self esteem, confidence and intuition was eroding slowly over time, this didn't happen overnight, it's subtle and I think that's partly why we leave our guard down. I'm not sure about you but I felt like a different man than before I went into my relationship.

Absolutely

While I was in the r/s my intuition was still there but the voice was getting quieter and quieter and I mostly ignored it. Why was I trying to rescue this woman? Why was I trying to apply the same things to try to make this r/s work expecting different results?

I'm still asking myself these questions, although I'm slowly starting to arrive at the answers. 

P.S. I agree this community is therapeutic because we have all been in a relationship that no one understands because we were with the invisible type of BPD. Our side of the story is not reciprocated or understood, often we look like the "crazy" one explaining our side and her side of the story.

This has been the hardest thing for me.  When I explain such events to people I know who have no experience with the disorder, they think like I did, rationally, and try to come up with a rational explanation for them. Then I sound crazy for trying to get validation that there was something off about it all (or at least, I feel crazy).  This community really opens your eyes to the ways that your partner's behaviors were completely irrational and to your own mind's misguided efforts to make rational sense out of them. 

[Mutt]

I haven't thought much about distortion campaigns, but I think you are right.  In retrospect, I think a lot of my ex's "lies" were actually dramatic distortions of real-ish events.  Explaining why she didn't perceive them as lies.  A trivial but I think salient example: when telling stories about people I didn't know, she would often slightly exaggerate their ages, or how long something lasted, etc.  Later, when I would bring a person up again and mention his age, she would correct me down.  This of course had the effects of making me feel like I hadn't been listening or paying attention until I figured out what was going on.

You are describing a no-win situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Narellan]

Thanks guys, I've learned a lot from this thread also. My exBPD was constantly setting up Triangulations, and always playing the victim although he was always the persecutor. My email incident makes a lot more sense now after following this thread. Given his fetishising for Triangulations I believe now that no email was sent and he wanted me to cut ties with my FB friend. Which I did. I can see it more clearly now I can see through his lies. At the time when I was in fog it just was all so confusing.

Great thread. And so glad BITS that you clarified this here and came to some understanding without involving your exBPD.

Well done! That's what we're here for 

[mywifecrazy]

I haven't thought much about distortion campaigns, but I think you are right.  In retrospect, I think a lot of my ex's "lies" were actually dramatic distortions of real-ish events.  Explaining why she didn't perceive them as lies.  A trivial but I think salient example: when telling stories about people I didn't know, she would often slightly exaggerate their ages, or how long something lasted, etc.  Later, when I would bring a person up again and mention his age, she would correct me down.  This of course had the effects of making me feel like I hadn't been listening or paying attention until I figured out what was going on.

You are describing a no-win situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The Kobiashi Maru ... . LMAO... . Sorry just entertaining myself! 

[mywifecrazy]

P.S. I agree this community is therapeutic because we have all been in a relationship that no one understands because we were with the invisible type of BPD. Our side of the story is not reciprocated or understood, often we look like the "crazy" one explaining our side and her side of the story.

This has been the hardest thing for me.  When I explain such events to people I know who have no experience with the disorder, they think like I did, rationally, and try to come up with a rational explanation for them. Then I sound crazy for trying to get validation that there was something off about it all (or at least, I feel crazy).  This community really opens your eyes to the ways that your partner's behaviors were completely irrational and to your own mind's misguided efforts to make rational sense out of them. 

WOW YES... . I drives me NUTS when I explain to a Non Non ( ) some of my uBPDxw's behaviors, they try to understand her actions from a RATIONAL mind and they ask questions like "Why would she do this or why would she do that" I want to Scream BECAUSE SHE'S DISORDERED! But I can understand where they're coming from. I wouldn't have understood any of her behaviors either if I hadn't stumbled upon this site and read all the stories on here that are EERILY similar to my story. Hell I was blind and confused for 20 years I shouldn't expect someone else to be able to wrap their head around it so easily.

[cosmonaut]

I haven't thought much about distortion campaigns, but I think you are right.  In retrospect, I think a lot of my ex's "lies" were actually dramatic distortions of real-ish events.  Explaining why she didn't perceive them as lies.  A trivial but I think salient example: when telling stories about people I didn't know, she would often slightly exaggerate their ages, or how long something lasted, etc.  Later, when I would bring a person up again and mention his age, she would correct me down.  This of course had the effects of making me feel like I hadn't been listening or paying attention until I figured out what was going on. 

I actually experienced this same phenomenon quite a bit, BITS.  My ex always had this sort of subtly shifting past.  She never completely seemed to lie, at least not that I ever knew, but details often changed.  Things happened in different orders.  People were there and then not there.  It was something that puzzled me during the relationship, but I wrote it off as memory issues from trauma and abuse.  I wonder if it was really just BPD.  I'll probably never know.  That's the maddening thing about my ex - I have no idea where one disorder begins and the next begins.  Everything sort of fed into everything else in these hideously feedback loops.  The result is that I have very little idea what happened or why or even what was true.

[Panda39]

"The Kobiashi Maru ... . LMAO... . Sorry just entertaining myself!  "


Just gotta say this cracked me up... . I love a random Star Trek reference... . levity is good 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKKESta5mgk

[BacknthSaddle]

Thanks guys, I've learned a lot from this thread also. My exBPD was constantly setting up Triangulations, and always playing the victim although he was always the persecutor. My email incident makes a lot more sense now after following this thread. Given his fetishising for Triangulations I believe now that no email was sent and he wanted me to cut ties with my FB friend. Which I did. I can see it more clearly now I can see through his lies. At the time when I was in fog it just was all so confusing.

Great thread. And so glad BITS that you clarified this here and came to some understanding without involving your exBPD.

Well done! That's what we're here for 

Thanks Narellan, and I'm glad the thread has been helpful to you too.  I think what this has reinforced for me is: if something like this happens and it even crosses your mind that the person your with is responsible for it... . then there is probably something wrong with that person, and you should probably stay away. 

As I look more closely at myself, I have to say: although I didn't think she was responsible at the time and I was completely blind to many red flags, I think I at least in part realized I was dealing with a potentially volatile, dangerous situation.  BUT, I think that my own hubris (narcissism?) allowed me to believe that I could defuse it and survive it.  In general, I think that quality allowed me to believe that I could get through this whole crazy situation without any damage, knowing it was crazy.  That I could fix the situation, make it into something functional. 

Hopefully, lesson learned. 

[BacknthSaddle]

"The Kobiashi Maru ... . LMAO... . Sorry just entertaining myself!  "


Just gotta say this cracked me up... . I love a random Star Trek reference... . levity is good 

For those who don't get this Star Trek reference... . from Wikipedia:

The Kobayashi Maru is a test in the fictional Star Trek universe.  The cadet is faced with a decision:

1) Attempt to rescue the Kobayashi Maru's crew and passengers, which involves violating the Neutral Zone and potentially provoking the Klingons into hostile action or an all-out war; or

2) Abandon the Kobayashi Maru, potentially preventing war but leaving the crew and passengers to die.

Wow... . this hits too close to home

[BacknthSaddle]

I haven't thought much about distortion campaigns, but I think you are right.  In retrospect, I think a lot of my ex's "lies" were actually dramatic distortions of real-ish events.  Explaining why she didn't perceive them as lies.  A trivial but I think salient example: when telling stories about people I didn't know, she would often slightly exaggerate their ages, or how long something lasted, etc.  Later, when I would bring a person up again and mention his age, she would correct me down.  This of course had the effects of making me feel like I hadn't been listening or paying attention until I figured out what was going on. 

I actually experienced this same phenomenon quite a bit, BITS.  My ex always had this sort of subtly shifting past.  She never completely seemed to lie, at least not that I ever knew, but details often changed.  Things happened in different orders.  People were there and then not there.  It was something that puzzled me during the relationship, but I wrote it off as memory issues from trauma and abuse.  I wonder if it was really just BPD.  I'll probably never know.  That's the maddening thing about my ex - I have no idea where one disorder begins and the next begins.  Everything sort of fed into everything else in these hideously feedback loops.  The result is that I have very little idea what happened or why or even what was true.

For what it's worth, I'm guessing that it is more directly related to the BPD.  Either it represents some sort of dissociative phenomenon or perhaps is just flat-out lying in some cases.  Would be interested to hear others' insights. I say this because, at least to my knowledge, there wasn't a whole lot of trauma or abuse in my ex's childhood beyond emotional abuse/indifferent parenting.  Although she was physically abused by an ex in her teens/early twenties, so who really knows.  I'm sure there's a lot of stuff there that I know nothing about. 

In any case, yes, I was left feeling like a new a lot of details about my ex's life before me, but I could never figure out how the pieces all fit together, because details or chronologies or what have you would always be changing.  Each time I thought I had something straight and brought it up, it turned out I was off.  It was maddening. 

[goldylamont]

Yes, the whole thing is odd. Its difficult or impossible to really know what parts of our ex's history was true or completely true.

I found a thread a while back on the Family members board and many of the parents there were speaking about how frustrating it was for them--their sons and daughters would distort the past, sometimes making up stories of abuse that never happened. Sometimes turning people against family members with no basis in reality. I know that I had a negative view of my ex's mother for a while... . until I actually met her family and then it just didn't make sense. They seemed loving and supportive and probably just as lost as any of us would be. Because BPD is so often linked to childhood trauma sometimes the parents are wrongly accused of things when they were actually trying to do their best the same as we were. In my case my ex had several siblings all growing up in the same household and as far as I could tell over the years she seemed to be the only one affected to this degree. Something to think about before putting the onus on the parents; I told them on the thread that I would mention this when it came up. I feel my ex's mom has suffered a lot in this regard. She always seemed loving and supportive to all her children. Really tough situation to understand.

[Mutt]

Jim Kirk didn't believe in no win situations and altered the conditions of the Kobiashi Maru test to win  

Your ex described abusive exes in adolescence and young adulthood. It's sad to hear that happened to your exe. BPD manifests in adolescence but they don't diagnose because teenagers and black and white thinking. My ex was pregnant at 16 from a 25 year old man and they cohabitated together. My point is that she had problems in her teens. She has split every ex but one black, all with similar stories of alcoholism, drug addiction, physical and emotional abuse, including myself. It may or may not of happened, you'll never know. She got sympathy from me with some horrific stories. I being the caretaker / white knight it was the perfect recipe. It's so hard to distinguish what is dissasociation or as you say flat out lying.

I apologize if this point has been made before BackntheSaddle but your ex is a waif.

[BacknthSaddle]

Hey Mutt,

The point hasn't been made before here but I agree 100%, and it is actually quite helpful to hear someone else say it.  There were times when I've seen her play more of the queen role as well.  In fact, in her public life, or with people she knows superficially, or at the beginning of the relationship, I would say that she plays more of the queen, while once someone gets closer or more intimate with her, the waif comes out.   

And yes, agree with BPD manifesting in adolescence despite the inability to diagnose via DSM.  Mine told me early on that she was heavily into drugs in high school, frequently got into physical fights with girls (in one case resulting in legal action), keyed another girl's car on at least one occasion, had an affair with an older, married man when she was 19.  SOMEHOW I thought "oh, but she has a good job and is functioning now.  She's come a long way!" 

I suppose many of us manage to fool ourselves to some degree and then wonder what the hell we were thinking in retrospect.

Thank you again for your insights. 

[Mutt]

And yes, agree with BPD manifesting in adolescence despite the inability to diagnose via DSM.  Mine told me early on that she was heavily into drugs in high school, frequently got into physical fights with girls (in one case resulting in legal action), keyed another girl's car on at least one occasion, had an affair with an older, married man when she was 19.  SOMEHOW I thought "oh, but she has a good job and is functioning now.  She's come a long way!"  

I suppose many of us manage to fool ourselves to some degree and then wonder what the hell we were thinking in retrospect.

Thank you again for your insights.  

You're welcome and I would like to thank you as well BacknthSaddle for your insights. Much appreciated.

My ex didn't get into physical fights but she had a lot of problems with her parents, which is partly due to adolescence but she was kicked out of her home and went into fostercare then she met an older man.

My SD is going through the same cycle, my ex sent her to her mothers and SDs grandmother threw her out as well and she is staying with a friends' family. My SD has BPD traits that emerged around the age of 12. As difficult as it is to accept, I can't help her because I have my own and I'm still going through family courts. It is generational but I'm breaking the cycle with my kids despite her family still burying their heads in the sand.

I 100% agree we do manage to fool ourselves and wonder what we were thinking in retrospect. It's a valuable lesson to learn here.

[BorisAcusio]

[quote author=BacknthSaddle link=topic=226747.msg12443522#msg12443522

And yes, birds of a feather.  I'm guessing that many have had the same experience: BPDexs surrounded by a sea dysfunction, somehow convincing you that they are an island of sanity within this sea.  That they are just a victim of the dysfunction, not a part of it.   [/quote]
I was thinking about this lately. Drop dead gorgeous, extremely funny, smart; and yet, completely isolated,lack of real friends just men(prospective and former lovers) orbiting around her. Without even knowing a word about PDs, it should have raised serious questions.

[woodsposse]

"The Kobiashi Maru ... . LMAO... . Sorry just entertaining myself!  "


Just gotta say this cracked me up... . I love a random Star Trek reference... . levity is good 

For those who don't get this Star Trek reference... . from Wikipedia:

The Kobayashi Maru is a test in the fictional Star Trek universe.  The cadet is faced with a decision:

1) Attempt to rescue the Kobayashi Maru's crew and passengers, which involves violating the Neutral Zone and potentially provoking the Klingons into hostile action or an all-out war; or

2) Abandon the Kobayashi Maru, potentially preventing war but leaving the crew and passengers to die.

Wow... . this hits too close to home

This is AWESOME!  Mostly because I love Star Trek (well, at least and very infatuated with it... . would probably take it on a few dates, spend an intimate weekend with it, then call or text when I got home!)

But I digress.

What I find interesting about this reference... . especially this morning, is how Cadet Kirk was able to actually pass the test and beat the no-win situation.  (for those of you who don't know what he did... . SPOILER ALERT)

By changing the perimeters of the test itself (reprogramming the simulator), he was able to avert the war as well as save the crew.  Yeah, some say that he cheated... . I call it "creative problem solving".

But as it pertains to relationships where there appears to be a no-win situation, you can either continue to beat your head against a frustrating wall and take all the pain associated with doing that... . you could just not play... . or you can make a change.

And, as we all know, the change has to be with us.

I still wish beyond all wishes I could go back in time and make some key changes in my life at key moments in relationships to avoid the past 20 plus years of headache and stuff.  But I can't.

27 years ago I met and married my first wife, we jumped into marriage and having babies really really fast... . and the problems were out of this world.  All of them were not her, by any means - I was as much at fault.  And I behaved in ways that make me sound crazier than a bucket of crazy with a side suitcase of crazy.

After that "ended"... . I slide into another r/s with a young lady who I eventually married after 4 years of on-again-off-again games... . but by then I was able to gain custody of my kids from my first marriage.

Having to deal with the stress and responsibilities of my kids, what they went through, the courts, my (by now) really crazy exwife, and my new young wife and her medical problems (she never wanted to work, but insisted on spending what money we had on stuff we didn't need and then got mad at me for being upset)... . was a lot to deal with.

But even in that I started to loose my head (maybe not as badly as I did in the first marriage, but still).

So when that marriage eventually ended (we had been 'together' for 17.5 years... . and then the divorce/after math half hearted attempts to still be in a r/s round everything up to 20 years) I was crushed beyond crushed.


I know I can't go back and change anything - but I can change things now. 

I'm not dead, and I know I will be and want to be in a loving r/s and spend my days with someone.  So I can change me.  I can accept what happened, learn to accept the fact that my life with my ex (of 20 years) is over.  I can learn to accept what I did to help make things as messed up as they go... . maybe by examining what my own boundaries were/are.  What I accept/don't accept.  What I bring to the table which is good/not so good.  And above all... . not allow myself to fall into a self-fooling mode.