Please remind me... why?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Warning, I am ruminating right now and I dont want to trigger any of my family of supporters with this post.

  I need some reminders.  Some real understanding. Even though I know soo much about this disorder, thankfully from so many incredible people here who take the time and effort to relive their nightmares here in effort of helping others. Thank you does not adequately express the gratitude you deserve. I feel silly even asking the following questions because I logically know the answers.  But my goodness, how does your heart ever understanding why these people do what they do to us?

I am being sincere and empathetic in saying I cannot imagine a worse disorder than BPD. At least other types are a bit more obvious.  NPD, obvious to most. Bipolar, pretty standard to suspect.  BPD is horrible. Such a hidden persona until so much hurt and damage is inflicted on others. You have to wait until all that deep enmeshment and out of no where hurt occurs to see the disorder.  It is so very unfair.

Why do they act like they dont know you after? How can you be that closely comnected to someone in everyway, and act like you literally do not know them when you see them? Is there really no thought at all in their mind when the see you? Is it like we are strangers in their minds? What do they really think inside their heads when they see us? I really really wish I knew.  The heart has zero reaction? If it was never " real" then why go that deep with someone? Why not just sleep around or be a one night stand type person? Its so difficult to truly understand how people who are soo emotional and persue you soo hard, then just turn it off like a switch. If its that easy, why dont they disconnect earlier? They must know their patterns? How in the world could they not? They repeat them all. I really mean this.

Obviously, I am asking because I recently saw my exBPD in passing. And even though I am so much stronger, better, and healing keeping away from that toxic bond, as an adult, I just dont get it.  Even when I see old BFs from my younger years I address them with appropriateness. My heart feels a little nostalgia and kindness.  It feels nice. 

I cannot be specific as to all here, but if I could write all if the ways I was there for my expBPD here, as in the kind of really deeply supportive real life even platonic best friend ways, I would. I never forget the really good people who have been there that way in my life. And if I could write out all of the very real distructive things that have occured in my life as a result of my r/s with him, it would confound most that I can still function. And I am. But, wow.  They just get to walk away from that?

They really remember nothing? They really dont feel one thing when they see you? They really have no depth of concern or compassion of how we are left and all we must deal with, alone? And they caused it all... .then turned the switch. So unfair and wrong.

[Caredverymuch]

Warning, I am ruminating right now and I dont want to trigger any of my family of supporters with this post.

  I need some reminders.  Some real understanding. Even though I know soo much about this disorder, thankfully from so many incredible people here who take the time and effort to relive their nightmares here in effort of helping others. Thank you does not adequately express the gratitude you deserve. I feel silly even asking the following questions because I logically know the answers.  But my goodness, how does your heart ever understanding why these people do what they do to us?

I am being sincere and empathetic in saying I cannot imagine a worse disorder than BPD. At least other types are a bit more obvious.  NPD, obvious to most. Bipolar, pretty standard to suspect.  BPD is horrible. Such a hidden persona until so much hurt and damage is inflicted on others. You have to wait until all that deep enmeshment and out of no where hurt occurs to see the disorder.  It is so very unfair.

Why do they act like they dont know you after? How can you be that closely comnected to someone in everyway, and act like you literally do not know them when you see them? Is there really no thought at all in their mind when the see you? Is it like we are strangers in their minds? What do they really think inside their heads when they see us? I really really wish I knew.  The heart has zero reaction? If it was never " real" then why go that deep with someone? Why not just sleep around or be a one night stand type person? Its so difficult to truly understand how people who are soo emotional and persue you soo hard, then just turn it off like a switch. If its that easy, why dont they disconnect earlier? They must know their patterns? How in the world could they not? They repeat them all. I really mean this.

Obviously, I am asking because I recently saw my exBPD in passing. And even though I am so much stronger, better, and healing keeping away from that toxic bond, as an adult, I just dont get it.  Even when I see old BFs from my younger years I address them with appropriateness. My heart feels a little nostalgia and kindness.  It feels nice. 

I cannot be specific as to all here, but if I could write all if the ways I was there for my expBPD here, as in the kind of really deeply supportive real life even platonic best friend ways, I would. I never forget the really good people who have been there that way in my life. And if I could write out all of the very real distructive things that have occured in my life as a result of my r/s with him, it would confound most that I can still function. And I am. But, wow.  They just get to walk away from that?

They really remember nothing? They really dont feel one thing when they see you? They really have no depth of concern or compassion of how we are left and all we must deal with, alone? And they caused it all... .then turned the switch. So unfair and wrong.

[Emelie Emelie]

So unfair and wrong.  I am as blown away by this as you are.  Sometimes I just wish he could see the mess he made.  See the pain he caused.  Know I've cried myself to sleep for three months now.  But he can't.  He won't.  He can't deal with the shame.  So he refuses to see it.  He makes it my fault.  He's angry at me.  I gave up trying to get him to understand how I feel a long time ago.  (Now he no longer cares.)  When he was trying to put us back together after the first break up; if I tried to explain the pain I went through, he would get very agitated and angry with me.  Talk about his pain.  Because I had the audacity to date after he dumped me.  How horrifically hurtful that was to him.  Argh.  Good reminder of how crazy this all is.  There's just no winning with BPD.  BPD wins every time.

[patientandclear]

It might help with this specific question to do some targeted reading. These two articles definitively answered the questions you're asking, which were of course tormenting me too; they provide a lot of relief for me.

One--if you Google Jeffrey Young and "schema therapy of borderline personality disorder" you will find two articles by Young. These basically explain how pwBPD have distinct "modes" that may function practically as independent personalities. The abandoned child mode can indeed desperately love and want you one day and a few hours later, the detached protector mode is devoid of all such feeling and is ending the r/ship. In a real sense it's not the same person. There is no executive self to integrate all those pieces so they act in contradictory ways, undermine each other, and have little or no cross referencing of what made sense to the other modes.

The other article is Fragmented Selves: Temporality and Identity in Borderline Personality Disorder, by Thomas Fuchs. He explains how pwBPD typically lack the ability to engage in deferred gratification--the way of thinking that allows you to know that even though your partner is driving you nuts right now, in general she makes you so happy, and you don't want to walk away from yet another r/ship because every time you do, you regret it later.

Both articles are short.

You can see that if we take seriously how this works, it is no longer puzzling how they can seem as though feelings and commitments are erased instantly. It's almost literally true.

[Mutt]

Hi Caredverymuch,

I understand how you feel. I had to reminded so many times that she is mentally ill and it took a long while for myself to have it sink in. I still get caught off guard from time to time as to why is she doing this? What does it mean? I'll use radical acceptance, it is what it is.

It's the most difficult of the personality disorders and invisible as you say. It's triggered by intimacy and the acting out is shown to the people that they care the most about. BPD is a spectrum disorder and everyone displays different traits. A more prominent trait in my ex is dissociation. A sort of amnesia that's triggered to cope with her feelings. It's an emotional based disorder. Goldylamont has very good articles suggested. The forgetting and amnesia like behavior is explained in detail in this article and it helped with framing my thoughts around it:

BPD BEHAVIORS:Dissociation and Dysphoria

Learn as much as you can and you will become depersonalized to the behavior. keep asking the same thing if you have to, I know that I did on bpdfamily. It's OK. It takes time for the heart to catch up to the head.  

[Caredverymuch]

Hi Caredverymuch,

I understand how you feel. I had to reminded so many times that she is mentally ill and it took a long while for myself to have it sink in. I still get caught off guard from time to time as to why is she doing this? What does it mean? I'll use radical acceptance, it is what it is.

It's the most difficult of the personality disorders and invisible as you say. It's triggered by intimacy and the acting out is shown to the people that they care the most about. BPD is a spectrum disorder and everyone displays different traits. A more prominent trait in my ex is dissociation. A sort of amnesia that's triggered to cope with her feelings. It's an emotional based disorder. Goldylamont has very good articles suggested. The forgetting and amnesia like behavior is explained in detail in this article and it helped with framing my thoughts around it:

BPD BEHAVIORS:Dissociation and Dysphoria

Learn as much as you can and you will become depersonalized to the behavior. keep asking the same thing if you have to, I know that I did on bpdfamily. It's OK. It takes time for the heart to catch up to the head.  

Mutt, Patientandclear, Emile2,

Thank you.  Your support and words and recommendations are so truly appreciated.  I will read the articles you cited. And you guys are incredible with how well and in depth you " get it".  You are very admirable and inspiring.

Im so tired of tricking my brain. Im so tired of learning and relearning and reading about this disorder, the schematics, the pathology, the aha moments until full and indifferent detachment occurs.  I feel like I have had to become a quasi expert of something I never wanted to know a thing about.  While the person with the disorder who caused all the aftermath just keeps on keeping on. Wash, rinse, repeat.

  Its incredulous how much work we here have to do in every good effort to heal. And we are doing it. Thats really something to be proud of you all. We ask and seek as much as we can to understand this horrible thing called BPD while the inflicted should be the one doing all this work so they can stop hurting people whos only offense is compassion, kindess, and caring. I wish so much I had the amnesia they do.  Thank you again, I really appreciate your insight. I'm very glad for mindfulness and how much it helps to just identify why we feel the emotion, process it, and move forward.  Still, I want to be done with all this and just put in way behind me.

[malwa]

Caredverymuch, Mutt, Patientandclear, Emile2

thanks for your posts and suggested articles.

I am so exhausted as well. Trying to understand the disordered emotions and behaviours. Unfortunately I feel that relationship with BPDperson affected me so much that I need a treatment and I am fed up with thinking about how long will it take and why my energy is still focused on BPD - I've never wanted to have anything in common with that!

But I remember the words of my friend and something that stands clearly in Pia Mellody, Andrea Wells Miller and J.Keith Miller book "Facing codependence what it is, where it comes from, how it sabotages our lives" - that it is  sad truth that  to become healthy is quite long and difficult process. the growth is very painful.

I want to be real and conscious person. I want to be courious and spontaneous as child can be, but do not want to cope as this abandoned or anrgy child could do.

[Mutt]

@Caredverymuch and @malwa

I couldn't of said it better than both of you with your responses. I felt absolutely exausted emotionally after the break-up and it was such a difficult time. This passage helped me during that period in embracing that difficult period and understanding that all of the work that I put into myself will and did pay off. The greatest reward comes with greatest challenges. I'll leave you both with this.

"To be whole, let yourself break.

To be straight, let yourself bend.

To be full, let yourself be empty.

To be new, let yourself wear out.

To have everything, give everything up.

Knowing others is a kind of knowledge;

knowing yourself is wisdom.

Conquering others requires strength;

conquering yourself is true power.

To realize that you have enough is true wealth.

Pushing ahead may succeed,

but staying put brings endurance.

Die without perishing, and find the eternal.

To know that you do not know is strength.

Not knowing that you do not know is a sickness.

The cure begins with the recognition of the sickness.

Knowing what is permanent: enlightenment.

Not knowing what is permanent: disaster.

Knowing what is permanent opens the mind.

Open mind, open heart.

Open heart, magnanimity."

~ Tao de Ching

[Caredverymuch]

@Caredverymuch and @malwa

I couldn't of said it better than both of you with your responses. I felt absolutely exausted emotionally after the break-up and it was such a difficult time. This passage helped me during that period in embracing that difficult period and understanding that all of the work that I put into myself will and did pay off. The greatest reward comes with greatest challenges. I'll leave you both with this.

"To be whole, let yourself break.

To be straight, let yourself bend.

To be full, let yourself be empty.

To be new, let yourself wear out.

To have everything, give everything up.

Knowing others is a kind of knowledge;

knowing yourself is wisdom.

Conquering others requires strength;

conquering yourself is true power.

To realize that you have enough is true wealth.

Pushing ahead may succeed,

but staying put brings endurance.

Die without perishing, and find the eternal.

To know that you do not know is strength.

Not knowing that you do not know is a sickness.

The cure begins with the recognition of the sickness.

Knowing what is permanent: enlightenment.

Not knowing what is permanent: disaster.

Knowing what is permanent opens the mind.

Open mind, open heart.

Open heart, magnanimity."

~ Tao de Ching

Mutt, thank you for sharing your insight and this passage. Its deeply insightful and profound. I apologize for note knowing your full experience, but how long has is been since your r/s ended to your present state of full emotional detachment?  

[Caredverymuch]

Caredverymuch, Mutt, Patientandclear, Emile2

thanks for your posts and suggested articles.

I am so exhausted as well. Trying to understand the disordered emotions and behaviours. Unfortunately I feel that relationship with BPDperson affected me so much that I need a treatment and I am fed up with thinking about how long will it take and why my energy is still focused on BPD - I've never wanted to have anything in common with that!

But I remember the words of my friend and something that stands clearly in Pia Mellody, Andrea Wells Miller and J.Keith Miller book "Facing codependence what it is, where it comes from, how it sabotages our lives" - that it is  sad truth that  to become healthy is quite long and difficult process. the growth is very painful.

I want to be real and conscious person. I want to be courious and spontaneous as child can be, but do not want to cope as this abandoned or anrgy child could do.

Malwa thank you for sharing your feelings on this topic. Yes, there was codeoendancy at work in the r/s with a pBPD.  Whats interesting at least in my case is that I dont consider myself as a codependent personality type. In fact, I consider myself independent. My ex used to comment on that often during idealization. How my independent and confident nature was something he was intrigued by and admired. 

pBDW work very hard to instill a very codependent theme to the r/a to hook you in. At first, it was just a fun pleasant r/s and something I could have walked away from easily.  The idealization works hard on the psyche and subconsciously, at least for me, seems to start to almost agree to the codependence because it is wrapped in bliss.  So I was going along in this state of incredible bliss during idealization, then the clinging begins. But its masked in " I just cant wait to see you" type of ways.  The attention remains beautiful and blissful.  And the moments together are so full of good and peaceful caring and endearments that there was nothing to not like about any of it. 

The push pull begins so insidiously and out of nowhere that I chalked it up to things like stress, pressures, etc.   If my logical mind knew that this was actually the beginning of d&d and splitting, I would have walked right then. I still could have. But I stuck with it under those misguidments and of course we all know thats when the power shift occurs and full codependency to the r/s blossoms.

[Mutt]

Mutt, thank you for sharing your insight and this passage. Its deeply insightful and profound. I apologize for note knowing your full experience, but how long has is been since your r/s ended to your present state of full emotional detachment?  

Thank you Caredverymuch. She left February 21st 2013 from a 7 year relationship and married 5 of those years. A young family with 2 kids aged from 3 to 8 now. Infidelity on her part going on for about 8 months or so before she decided to leave. She got pregnant from him and tried to hide it and that was around Aug of 2012 when I knew there was another man in the picture. She was triangulating from the primary relationship and coping through him. A transitional object.

Family court ended last month and it was high conflict. I think there was emotional attachment lingering through the court process and some certainly ongoing resentment for having to go through all of that. It certainly wasn't fun but not impossible because I see her patterns now. All or nothing and no in between. It's the second time I've had to battle her through court. The first time in 2010 for false DV charges.

Full emotional detachment I would say in the last month (June - July '14) after court ended. I felt like I hung over from court and unwinding from those events over the last year. Not a pleasant feeling.

Divorcing a borderline is probably one of the hardest things to do. Her email bombs dropped right off after court ended and things felt smoothed out. I didn't get triggered by every email but I certainly didn't like the quantity of unnecessary aggressive / dissociate emails she sent. That was triggered and I think it kept an emotional tether to some degree. Now I just follow what's on the piece of paper, it's her choice if she disagrees but it's black and white. She 's welcome to change the order in court but I laid serious boundaries and she gets the picture. The ambiguity is removed and it gives her less opportunities to cause unnecessary conflict. It was walking on eggshells with having the kids living under her roof and she had primary guardianship and it's shared custody now.

I hope that answers the question but it took me 15 months approx. I feel like I've buffed out my space with court and consumer proposal (Canada. I'm not sure about US but it's a less severe type of bankruptcy) and things are slowly but surely moving forward with plans without her in my life   I can let my hair hang down and reap the rewards a little. I feel good. I'm looking in the long-view now with short term goals in between.

[Infared]

Caredverymuch... .

I identify with your exasperatingly deep frustration about the extremes, from total enmeshment to well, nothing. The amount of pain that that caused me I could never put into words and do it any kind of justice. I came close to suicide just to make it stop... I have had to have total NC for years now, as if I talked to the person our perspective areso different, mine grounded and hers orbiting some fantasy/lie planet. No addmission or accountability for any of it, and no warmth or depth.  Hard to understand.

Mine recently attempted to ambush me in the super market parking lot... .and I just ran to my car and got out of there. Still miss her, still hate her. It's so sick... .but any kind of interaction is just devastating to me. To her it is nothing... .just a shallow game.

Damn this disease is brutal.

[Caredverymuch]

Caredverymuch... .

I identify with your exasperatingly deep frustration about the extremes, from total enmeshment to well, nothing. The amount of pain that that caused me I could never put into words and do it any kind of justice. I came close to suicide just to make it stop... I have had to have total NC for years now, as if I talked to the person our perspective areso different, mine grounded and hers orbiting some fantasy/lie planet. No addmission or accountability for any of it, and no warmth or depth.  Hard to understand.

Mine recently attempted to ambush me in the super market parking lot... .and I just ran to my car and got out of there. Still miss her, still hate her. It's so sick... .but any kind of interaction is just devastating to me. To her it is nothing... .just a shallow game.

Damn this disease is brutal.

Infared thank you for sharing. I am sorry your journey has been so long and congratulate you on the healing and mindful boundaries you seem to have erected.

Yes it is brutal and seems so very much like a game as far as they approach it. Do you ever wonder why somewhere along their life no one has pointed out, hey I think you might have a problem. It's not okay to hurt people like you do. This is something parents say to their children all the time. And the children learn from it and stop the bad behavior.

Food for thought as to why these people with such a high degree of emotional sensitivity have no concept, it appears, of the incredible hurt they cause others "that they are in love with."   It's hard for me to imagine shame is the reason. It feels more like deliberate cruelty and arrogance.

[Infared]

Caredverymuch

" I feel like I have had to become a quasi expert of something I never wanted to know a thing about.  While the person with the disorder who caused all the aftermath just keeps on keeping on. Wash, rinse, repeat. "

THAT is beautiful!... .Wash, Rinse, Repeat!  Sssoo true!

(The phrase is specially poignant to me because my ex had a TOTAL obsession with her hair! LOL! Thanks for the laugh.)

My head knows that she is sick, my heart has never understood it as much as I try.

I know... I know, but it is deliberate cruelty and arrogance. I saw the glee in her eye when she would act out in public with her new BF to emotionally hurt me. She would act out doing childish things in public by herself as well. And she was obviously enjoying herself? The thing is, she is sick, but for me it doesn't hurt any less when I am subjected to these behaviors.

[LostGhost]

Why do they act like they dont know you after? How can you be that closely comnected to someone in everyway, and act like you literally do not know them when you see them? Is there really no thought at all in their mind when the see you? Is it like we are strangers in their minds? What do they really think inside their heads when they see us? I really really wish I knew.  The heart has zero reaction? If it was never " real" then why go that deep with someone? Why not just sleep around or be a one night stand type person? Its so difficult to truly understand how people who are soo emotional and persue you soo hard, then just turn it off like a switch. If its that easy, why dont they disconnect earlier? They must know their patterns? How in the world could they not? They repeat them all. I really mean this.

These are some of the questions I contemplate also. Especially why don't they just have multiple non-committed, one night stand type relationships ongoing? What's the point in attaching to someone like us like a symbiotic parasite, feeding off us but invisibly killing us? Why invest that much effort and vulnerability only to throw it all away 6 months later. This disorder is just ridiculous. What kind of power came up with such an illness? They want and desire love. We give it in spades. That love triggers them to flee so they abandon us and start the process anew. If they just stayed in the damn relationship where we're idealizing each other... .still not healthy but harmony. A lot better than the attach/idealize/devalue/abandon pattern. I know it's more complicated than that. Lack of identity, mirroring and so on but... .this is just aggravating to me at times. Filled my head with all this "I'm so hurt by everyone, I'm such a hurt little girl but you're my hero, my soulmate! We're meant to be!" Then runs away, acts like I don't exist and repeats the same pattern again with someone else (her ex).

Do you ever wonder how many of "us" there are? How many other people do they have in their Rolodex at any one time? Maybe we were all in a relationship with the same person

[Hopeless777]

My hopes are dashed. My soul is crushed. I'm wallowing in self-pity. I am loathsome and pathetic. What happened? 28 years in the toilet. My adult kids can't even address the issues. My friends have all deserted me. I feel alone and lost and I wish I were dead. I must have done something terrible to deserve this much hatred. Yes, yes, I know all about BPD after 7 months of constant research. But knowledge doesn't lessen the pain. The easy way out seems so inviting tonight. I ask all the questions that I always laughed about in others: Why? Life is "unfair." Little did I know that I too would be asking these ridiculous questions about the world's worst mental illness. At 57 I should be at the heights. But I feel at the depths. I don't know what to do to make it. How stupid. She has proven to be evil and I should be glad to be rid of her no matter what. But I love her and I can't stop. How irrational. God help us!

[Caredverymuch]

Do you ever wonder how many of "us" there are? How many other people do they have in their Rolodex at any one time? Maybe we were all in a relationship with the same person [/quote]
Lostghost, thank you for such a spot on post. Exactly how I have felt and wondered very much about.  Why on earth attach to that deep depth to another if you know your pattern is to abandon them and then do it all again? Why cling and enmesh and cry and share so much with someone you know you are going to eventually abandon? I don't get that.

Yes I have wondered how many of "us" there have been. It's hard to trick the mind as the pBPD I had my interaction with was someone I thought of as a true friend for a good deal of time before becoming a r/s partner. I always thought the world of this man and never on earth, even if it just ended at a friendship, would have believed he had multiple dalliances. He was an incredible friend. A man of integrity like no other. Now when I look back I can almost identify some of the folks you refer to as the other "us". Late night texts from your older female boss that you will "answer later" (who just happens to be a wonderful person in my opinion and who had endured a great deal of real life misgivings that might make her perhaps... .vulnerable) Hmmm.

[myself]

It's hard for me to imagine shame is the reason. It feels more like deliberate cruelty and arrogance.

The more they get away with it, the less shame they seem to feel.

The deeper the patterns, the more deliberate the actions.

They could change. They choose not to.

[LostGhost]

Do you ever wonder how many of "us" there are? How many other people do they have in their Rolodex at any one time? Maybe we were all in a relationship with the same person

Lostghost, thank you for such a spot on post. Exactly how I have felt and wondered very much about.  Why on earth attach to that deep depth to another if you know your pattern is to abandon them and then do it all again? Why cling and enmesh and cry and share so much with someone you know you are going to eventually abandon? I don't get that.

Yes I have wondered how many of "us" there have been. It's hard to trick the mind as the pBPD I had my interaction with was someone I thought of as a true friend for a good deal of time before becoming a r/s partner. I always thought the world of this man and never on earth, even if it just ended at a friendship, would have believed he had multiple dalliances. He was an incredible friend. A man of integrity like no other. Now when I look back I can almost identify some of the folks you refer to as the other "us". Late night texts from your older female boss that you will "answer later" (who just happens to be a wonderful person in my opinion and who had endured a great deal of real life misgivings that might make her perhaps... .vulnerable) Hmmm. [/quote]
And there's the other perplexing factor. Looking around this community I see only givers -  people who have so generously given without a second thought their time, affection, love, patience, finances, heart, mind, body and soul. I asked my therapist what it was about people like us that they're able to seek us out so efficiently and he joked they have incredible radar capability and they can zero in on you as soon as you walk into the same room. Raises a lot of questions. Is it something in our demeanour or our body language that makes us seem like perfect prey? From what I can tell, they never fail. I haven't seen an example of someone with BPD walking up to a confident person with all their mental faculties in order and being rejected. So do they avoid the strong and prey only on the weak somehow?

I don't understand how they select their targets. One revealing bit of information from my ex that I thought nothing of at the time but might consider a red flag now: during devaluation she claimed she doesn't take physical characteristics into account when selecting a partner, all that matters is their personality. It made me feel a bit shallow because I certainly have preferences. But she was adamant I could basically be an inanimate blob. As long as I had the same personality, she'd be fine with it. At first I thought wow, what a benevolent and non judgemental person. But as time went on I felt uncomfortable with the notion. It felt like she could replace me with anyone at any time. And she did

The opposite end of that during idealization was complimenting my hair, my body etc. anything to give me an ego boost. "I like guys who are/have xxxx" - insert whatever multitude of traits/characteristics I have. This felt great.

That devaluation side of her was creepy though. Almost like an alien creature or emotionless machine that was saying to me "I don't care what you look like or who you are. You're a food source to me. As long as I can deplete you for sustenance, you'll do".

[patientandclear]

One revealing bit of information from my ex that I thought nothing of at the time but might consider a red flag now: during devaluation she claimed she doesn't take physical characteristics into account when selecting a partner, all that matters is their personality. It made me feel a bit shallow because I certainly have preferences. But she was adamant I could basically be an inanimate blob. As long as I had the same personality, she'd be fine with it. At first I thought wow, what a benevolent and non judgemental person. But as time went on I felt uncomfortable with the notion. It felt like she could replace me with anyone at any time. And she did

The opposite end of that during idealization was complimenting my hair, my body etc. anything to give me an ego boost. "I like guys who are/have xxxx" - insert whatever multitude of traits/characteristics I have. This felt great.

That devaluation side of her was creepy though. Almost like an alien creature or emotionless machine that was saying to me "I don't care what you look like or who you are. You're a food source to me. As long as I can deplete you for sustenance, you'll do".

I think it may go even beyond the idea that they care about "personality."  I think the aspect of "personality" that they care about is "willing to be affirming of me."

My ex once noted that of all the qualities he loved about me (none of which he actually listed), the one that most stood out was that I consistently asked how he was doing. !  That was it.

I may not be everyone's cup of tea but I do have some distinctive qualities that would be the reason why someone who was spending his life with me would choose me.  The fact that, like 75% of the women out there, I am basically polite and interested in my partner, would not be one of my more remarkable characteristics.

I think my personality was as irrelevant to him as my physical appearance (and like you LostGhost he praised that enthusiastically).  The one thing that mattered was how besotted I was with him.

[Caredverymuch]

Mutt, thank you for sharing your insight and this passage. Its deeply insightful and profound. I apologize for note knowing your full experience, but how long has is been since your r/s ended to your present state of full emotional detachment? 

Thank you Caredverymuch. She left February 21st 2013 from a 7 year relationship and married 5 of those years. A young family with 2 kids aged from 3 to 8 now. Infidelity on her part going on for about 8 months or so before she decided to leave. She got pregnant from him and tried to hide it and that was around Aug of 2012 when I knew there was another man in the picture. She was triangulating from the primary relationship and coping through him. A transitional object.

Family court ended last month and it was high conflict. I think there was emotional attachment lingering through the court process and some certainly ongoing resentment for having to go through all of that. It certainly wasn't fun but not impossible because I see her patterns now. All or nothing and no in between. It's the second time I've had to battle her through court. The first time in 2010 for false DV charges.

Full emotional detachment I would say in the last month (June - July '14) after court ended. I felt like I hung over from court and unwinding from those events over the last year. Not a pleasant feeling.

Divorcing a borderline is probably one of the hardest things to do. Her email bombs dropped right off after court ended and things felt smoothed out. I didn't get triggered by every email but I certainly didn't like the quantity of unnecessary aggressive / dissociate emails she sent. That was triggered and I think it kept an emotional tether to some degree. Now I just follow what's on the piece of paper, it's her choice if she disagrees but it's black and white. She 's welcome to change the order in court but I laid serious boundaries and she gets the picture. The ambiguity is removed and it gives her less opportunities to cause unnecessary conflict. It was walking on eggshells with having the kids living under her roof and she had primary guardianship and it's shared custody now.

I hope that answers the question but it took me 15 months approx. I feel like I've buffed out my space with court and consumer proposal (Canada. I'm not sure about US but it's a less severe type of bankruptcy) and things are slowly but surely moving forward with plans without her in my life  I can let my hair hang down and reap the rewards a little. I feel good. I'm looking in the long-view now with short term goals in between.

Mutt, thank you for sharing your experience. You have surely endured a lot and I am sorry for that. I'm inspired by your strength and continual healing as well as the very sound and insightful perspective you have as a result. 

I know all pBPD are different but one thing I have so often wondered, what is it really like to be married to a pBPD? I was not married to my ex but surely would have done so if things went forward. He is back with his ex, the one I replaced for the time we were together. His ex is NPD (identified) and he jumps when she says how high, literally. I've seen it.  I would not wish the treatment I endured on anyone, but he surely didn't seem to be the same in that regard with her as he was with me. Which makes me curious on what a committed r/s is really like.

I'm happy that your life is back on track, Mutt. You really help so many here with the good advisement and support you offer. Thank you.

[malwa]

@Caredverymuch and @malwa

I couldn't of said it better than both of you with your responses. I felt absolutely exausted emotionally after the break-up and it was such a difficult time. This passage helped me during that period in embracing that difficult period and understanding that all of the work that I put into myself will and did pay off. The greatest reward comes with greatest challenges. I'll leave you both with this.

"To be whole, let yourself break.

To be straight, let yourself bend.

To be full, let yourself be empty.

To be new, let yourself wear out.

To have everything, give everything up.

Knowing others is a kind of knowledge;

knowing yourself is wisdom.

Conquering others requires strength;

conquering yourself is true power.

To realize that you have enough is true wealth.

Pushing ahead may succeed,

but staying put brings endurance.

Die without perishing, and find the eternal.

To know that you do not know is strength.

Not knowing that you do not know is a sickness.

The cure begins with the recognition of the sickness.

Knowing what is permanent: enlightenment.

Not knowing what is permanent: disaster.

Knowing what is permanent opens the mind.

Open mind, open heart.

Open heart, magnanimity."

~ Tao de Ching

thank you so much!

I will put it on my wall:)

[malwa]

Malwa thank you for sharing your feelings on this topic. Yes, there was codeoendancy at work in the r/s with a pBPD.  Whats interesting at least in my case is that I dont consider myself as a codependent personality type. In fact, I consider myself independent. My ex used to comment on that often during idealization. How my independent and confident nature was something he was intrigued by and admired. 

pBDW work very hard to instill a very codependent theme to the r/a to hook you in. At first, it was just a fun pleasant r/s and something I could have walked away from easily.  The idealization works hard on the psyche and subconsciously, at least for me, seems to start to almost agree to the codependence because it is wrapped in bliss.  So I was going along in this state of incredible bliss during idealization, then the clinging begins. But its masked in " I just cant wait to see you" type of ways.  The attention remains beautiful and blissful.  And the moments together are so full of good and peaceful caring and endearments that there was nothing to not like about any of it. 

The push pull begins so insidiously and out of nowhere that I chalked it up to things like stress, pressures, etc.   If my logical mind knew that this was actually the beginning of d&d and splitting, I would have walked right then. I still could have. But I stuck with it under those misguidments and of course we all know thats when the power shift occurs and full codependency to the r/s blossoms.

Hi Caredverymuch!

I totally understand your point, because (although in 2008 I went through 1 year a therapy for Adult Children of Alcoholics) I considered myself quite independent type with quite healthy boudaries.

I was aware of some patterns and shcemas that I can fall into and I tried to protect myself. After 2-3 dates with my ex I felt that something was not OK. So I told her "I like you but... .".

Then she kept me feeling she adored me, and after 4th date she... .dumped me texting that " it was just sex".

You know waht happened then? I could not sleep at night because I was feeling so... .lonely.

To make it clear - when I was starting dating her I had two music bands, many friends, loved to be alone as well... .

But then I felt just "whyyyy, I want to be here for you, to care about you".

power shift occured definitely.

My therapist asked me to do a homework for our next meeting on Tuesday.

She said "Something must have happened between 2008 when you were quite good after your 1 year therapy, and 2013 - when you ignored "red lights" and engaged into this relationship. Think about it because it's not this relationship that ruined you, it started earlier".

So I am making my homework 

[Caredverymuch]

One revealing bit of information from my ex that I thought nothing of at the time but might consider a red flag now: during devaluation she claimed she doesn't take physical characteristics into account when selecting a partner, all that matters is their personality. It made me feel a bit shallow because I certainly have preferences. But she was adamant I could basically be an inanimate blob. As long as I had the same personality, she'd be fine with it. At first I thought wow, what a benevolent and non judgemental person. But as time went on I felt uncomfortable with the notion. It felt like she could replace me with anyone at any time. And she did

The opposite end of that during idealization was complimenting my hair, my body etc. anything to give me an ego boost. "I like guys who are/have xxxx" - insert whatever multitude of traits/characteristics I have. This felt great.

That devaluation side of her was creepy though. Almost like an alien creature or emotionless machine that was saying to me "I don't care what you look like or who you are. You're a food source to me. As long as I can deplete you for sustenance, you'll do".

I think it may go even beyond the idea that they care about "personality."  I think the aspect of "personality" that they care about is "willing to be affirming of me."

My ex once noted that of all the qualities he loved about me (none of which he actually listed), the one that most stood out was that I consistently asked how he was doing. !  That was it.

I may not be everyone's cup of tea but I do have some distinctive qualities that would be the reason why someone who was spending his life with me would choose me.  The fact that, like 75% of the women out there, I am basically polite and interested in my partner, would not be one of my more remarkable characteristics.

I think my personality was as irrelevant to him as my physical appearance (and like you LostGhost he praised that enthusiastically).  The one thing that mattered was how besotted I was with him.

Patient, I agree with all you express here. Im not boastful but Im fairly certain I have a rather long list of good qualities I've worked hard to establish as my core values.  In fact, I often hear, as many folks here do too Im sure,  that Im a great and generous friend, coworker etc. Additionally, I take care of myself physically.   And I really do have a bright outlook on life as seeing all in a positive way. Im also educated and have accomplished admirable things.  I asked my expBPD a few times how he described me to those he had told about me.  He looked like he had to search for words. And both times could come up with only this " I feel very safe with her." 

[Emelie Emelie]

What mine loved most about me was that "I was always happy to see him".  What he loved about me was, of course, about him.

[Caredverymuch]

Do you ever wonder how many of "us" there are? How many other people do they have in their Rolodex at any one time? Maybe we were all in a relationship with the same person

Lostghost, thank you for such a spot on post. Exactly how I have felt and wondered very much about.  Why on earth attach to that deep depth to another if you know your pattern is to abandon them and then do it all again? Why cling and enmesh and cry and share so much with someone you know you are going to eventually abandon? I don't get that.

Yes I have wondered how many of "us" there have been. It's hard to trick the mind as the pBPD I had my interaction with was someone I thought of as a true friend for a good deal of time before becoming a r/s partner. I always thought the world of this man and never on earth, even if it just ended at a friendship, would have believed he had multiple dalliances. He was an incredible friend. A man of integrity like no other. Now when I look back I can almost identify some of the folks you refer to as the other "us". Late night texts from your older female boss that you will "answer later" (who just happens to be a wonderful person in my opinion and who had endured a great deal of real life misgivings that might make her perhaps... .vulnerable) Hmmm.

And there's the other perplexing factor. Looking around this community I see only givers -  people who have so generously given without a second thought their time, affection, love, patience, finances, heart, mind, body and soul. I asked my therapist what it was about people like us that they're able to seek us out so efficiently and he joked they have incredible radar capability and they can zero in on you as soon as you walk into the same room. Raises a lot of questions. Is it something in our demeanour or our body language that makes us seem like perfect prey? From what I can tell, they never fail. I haven't seen an example of someone with BPD walking up to a confident person with all their mental faculties in order and being rejected. So do they avoid the strong and prey only on the weak somehow?

I don't understand how they select their targets. One revealing bit of information from my ex that I thought nothing of at the time but might consider a red flag now: during devaluation she claimed she doesn't take physical characteristics into account when selecting a partner, all that matters is their personality. It made me feel a bit shallow because I certainly have preferences. But she was adamant I could basically be an inanimate blob. As long as I had the same personality, she'd be fine with it. At first I thought wow, what a benevolent and non judgemental person. But as time went on I felt uncomfortable with the notion. It felt like she could replace me with anyone at any time. And she did

The opposite end of that during idealization was complimenting my hair, my body etc. anything to give me an ego boost. "I like guys who are/have xxxx" - insert whatever multitude of traits/characteristics I have. This felt great.

That devaluation side of her was creepy though. Almost like an alien creature or emotionless machine that was saying to me "I don't care what you look like or who you are. You're a food source to me. As long as I can deplete you for sustenance, you'll do".[/quote]
-------------------

Absolutely understand this Longghost.  Yes, they do seek out the good and generous hearted.  We are the parent they never had before we become the punitive parent that they hate. 

So many red flags retrospectively.  My expBPD told me several times early on that he could walk into a room full of people and immediately find the lonely one, the one who wasn't taking up all of the attention. And that was the kind of person he would immediately be attracted to.  I thought it was benevolent too at that time.  Beautiful even. Looks don't matter as top priority to me, character does. I thought this man had the most beautiful character on the face of the earth, which made him wholly beautiful to me in every way.

I far surpassed him physically as many have also stated here that they too were on the better looking scale in the pairing.  In fact some close friends who tried to console me after the D and Ds and before I knew anything about BPD even said words like " you let someone who looks like that hurt you this way? You're kidding right?  Move on."  Disclaimer: I don't think that way AT ALL-just sharing others surface perspective.

No looks don't matter to them.  But not in the same way I just stated as not priority.  The better I looked, the less he even seemed to notice.  Yes, the comments on idealization side were full of flattery.  But thereafter, my physical nature appeared unseen.  It was my inner unwavering goodness and caring that he clamped down on and drained dry before splitting and never looking back.

When I saw who he replaced me with, it all rang true. 

[malwa]

your posts reminded me my ex telling me at the beginning of our relationship that she used to "prefer" more feminine girls, like with big breasts etc.

I am kind of tiny girl.

But I felt like I am someone special, new for her.

Later she became very judgemental - she was telling me what should I wear. I have never had such experience before in any relationship! Mostly I agreed with her ideas (to please her) but sometimes I felt that it was not me who she was trying to... ."create"? When I was strong enough to voice my objections I was saying - "Well,  I dont like this shirt or pants, dont you like me how I am?" and she replied - "Malwa, people do not tell you the truth, I am telling you the truth to make you look more pretty! People always lie to make you feel good. i am just sincere".

[Infared]

Caredverymuch... .

I believe you are correct that BPD's spot us in a room full of people, unfortunately there is also something in us that makes us all too willing to meld with them... .much to our demise.