The core issue of BPD

[maxsterling]

I was thinking recently about what really separates us from our BPD loved ones.  We've all had crappy things happen to us.  We've all experienced some traumatic events.  We've all had bad breakups.  None of us had perfect parents.  Sure, the crappy things in the pwBPD's life may be at a level even more crappy, but not always.

If I think about how I get myself through the bad times, and compare that to my dBPD fiancé, I think the key difference is in my sense of identity and how I view myself.  When bad things happen to me, I feel sad or angry, but deep down I know who I am and after a period of time I go back about my business.  With my fiancé, bad things happen to her and suddenly she doesn't know what her life is. 

Take for example a breakup with a dating partner.  I will feel sad, maybe bitter, or angry.  But deep down I still know what I like and who I am and what makes me happy.  And after a while of grieving, I go back out and do the things I enjoy.  Rationally, I recognize that dating partner has an identity as well, and can choose who they want to be with, and it just wasn't me.  So life is sad for awhile, but slowly I recognize it wasn't meant to be and the bitterness or anger fades.  Now with my fiancé, if a dating partner breaks up with her, her whole image falls apart because she identifies herself based upon who she is with.  Right now, outside of me, she has NOTHING to define who she is - and she vocalizes this to me.  So to her, breakups are all "rejections" or "being dumped". 

If you have a poor sense of self, it will make all the crappy things about life that much crappier.  If someone says something bad about you, you will have less ability to shake it off.  What keeps me going when bad things happen is that I still know who I am.  If I didn't have that self image, the world would be an out of control chaotic mess without meaning, and likely would feel all negative.

I think the severe abandonment issues are made worse by a lack of identity.  We've all been abandoned, but most of use don't feel it like an abandonment because we still have ourselves.  So we weather those storms and abandonment is not traumatic.

I think the black and white thinking is made worse by a lack of identity.  Because I know who I am and know what I like, I can relate stuff to my identity, and that makes it easier for me to not label things as all good or all bad because I can compare and contrast individual elements to my complex identity.  I think my fiancé has a hard time seeing some good and some bad in people because she can't see her own identity in the same way. 

It seems to me that many of the issues our pwBPD face wouldn't really be big issues at all if they had a better understanding of who they were in relation to society and other people.  It's the lack of identity that brings out the other issues that we see so often.

Thoughts?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[maxsterling]

here's an analogy:  Suppose you are the captain of a space ship.  You know your ship inside and out.  You know how fast it does, what it's weapons and defenses are, and how much damage it can sustain before you die.  Now suppose some Klingons come around and shoot a hole in your space ship.  Yeah, it stinks and your anger and emotions rise, but because you know your ship's capabilities, you know you won't die, and know how to repair it.

Now suppose you know nothing about your ship and some Klingons shoot a hole in it.  You instantly panic, thinking you will die.  Because you know nothing about your ship, you have no way of knowing you will be okay.  It doesn't even have to be a hole in your ship.  You could pass by an energetic nebula - and since you don't know how your ship works, you don't know whether the nebula will hurt your ship or recharge your batteries, so you are fearful. Or perhaps you are travelling with a group of other space ships, and the other space ships veer of on another mission, leaving you alone.  If you knew your ship well, you would know you will be fine without them.  If you don't know your ship, you have no way of knowing how to survive on your own if you run into trouble.

I think that is how my fiancé goes through her life every day.  She doesn't know herself, so she doesn't know how to tell if she will be okay when the inevitable bad things happen to her.  And she doesn't even know if she will be okay when the inevitable good things happen to her, because if she doesn't know herself, she doesn't know if it is good or bad.

[MaybeSo]

Very good explanation and analogy.

This stuff isn't just psychological... .it's biological, too. You get your wiring hooked-up to have the capacity to experience a stable sense of self... .at a very young age... .or you don't.  If you don't... .then the wiring is NOT hooked up.  It's not connected.  You are not connected.   They aren't just trying to be difficult... .the wiring, the connection... .that facilitates a sense of self (anchors you, your mind, and your body to the world and with others in a connected, grounded way) isn't hooked-up.  There's no internal representation of a YOU that is stable over time.  Similar to early phases of child development... .but arrested so that now you have an adult that feels unteathered, like an infant feels.  Scary stuff.

So your analogy is very good... .that if you don't really know your ship, not sure how it runs or works,... .not sure if it's even your ship or not, sometimes feel like you have no ship at all... .

then everything tends to be incredibly disorientating and fearful.   There's no solid core.  You are not anchored to anything.

[maxsterling]

MaybeSo - exactly.  When my grandmother's Alzheimer's was getting advanced, she went through a phase where she was constantly asking people to take her home, despite the fact she was sitting on the chair in her living room.  You could point to the photos of her on the wall, the dining room table, or the television, and she would tell you they were all hers.  Yet rather than figure out from that information that she was sitting in her house that she lived in for 30 years, she would conclude that someone must have built an exact duplicate of her house to trick her, and that is where she was.  It wasn't home because it didn't feel like her home, and because it didn't feel like it was her home, there was no amount of information you could give her to convince her that she was home.  The part of her brain that allowed her to feel comfortable in her surroundings had died.

It often seems like a similar problem with a pwBPD.  There is a part of our brains that keeps our identity.  It helps us feel comfortable with who we are and how we relate to others and society.  I'm not sure if we are born with it or it develops at a young age through experience or just biological development.  But it seems that pwBPD must lack that.  I seem to read story after story on here about us being frustrated because the pwBPD in our lives seemingly doesn't know what he or she wants and constantly and abruptly switches direction.  And I've read many stories where we talk about our pwBPD not knowing how to answer when challenged with questions like, "what makes you happy" or "what do you like to do for fun."  Listening to my fiancé, it seems that even at an early age, the way she viewed herself was drastically different than the way I viewed myself at the same age.  Some of the stories she tells of her early childhood make me wonder if she even understood that she was a human.

And I wonder if knowing your identity is something someone can learn as an adult.  Or is it one of those things that hast to happen very early on?  She's obviously developed coping mechanisms that have gotten her through life to this point, but its pretty clear that the way she deals with things such as what to do with her time or the purpose of friendships is completely different than me.  Her coping mechanisms seem to involve latching on to others or running away (searching).  It's like the process of the search gives her an identity.  I remember once she told me she liked living abroad because she said that being an "expatriate" gave her an identity. 

And very curiously, when she was having a breakdown a few weeks ago, she was remarking about how she hates it here and feels like she just wants to go "home" but doesn't know where "home" is... .

[KateCat]

Such beautiful posts, maxsterling.

[JohnLove]

I second that. Brilliant thread maxsterling. Very helpful. You are a gem.

Although I am still holding out for some sort of "cure". I understand those bits and pieces but if a pwBPD could make that connection in their brain. That would be a revolution would it not?. "Experts" once thought the brain once fully formed... .well... .that was it, brain cells only died off after that, but now we know the brain can make new connections all the time.

I appreciate the complexity of this problem and that even if this were possible (and I believe it is) it is not going to happen overnight... .sigh.  

[waverider]

Without the ability to self soothe, self rescue and self regulate, a person cannot have any confidence in their own ability to sustain themselves. This is the basis of neediness with no real sense of self.

[flatspin]

BPDs don't have self-identity. They are mirrors, so to speak. They are what they like in others and what they hear from them. It's related to enmeshment too, I think. One day, they need the mix; the day after, they kick us out !

My ex-wife was craving for someone with whom she would have a "connection". Connection here ! connection there ! I'm pretty sure that what she meant by the term "connection" wasn't how I interpreted it back then... .

Maybe that she didn't even know what she wanted... .

[maxsterling]

I think much of the therapy for BPD focuses on behaviors, and being mindful and controlling of one's emotions.  And that is all very productive, because it is the behaviors and inability to control emotions that causes the issues.  But if I listen to my fiancé, it just seems like she already knows certain behaviors are bad, yet she keeps repeating them.  I think it's difficult for her to control her emotions or even examine what her emotions are in the moment because she's constantly overwhelmed with the task of staying in the moment. And I mean constantly - like 24/7.

Take a recent example with her job, she knows that she needs to change her behaviors or she will fail at this job.  She's said as much to me, and to our therapist.  Yet last night and this morning, she's already told me she hates her co-workers because she claims they aren't helping her enough.  She knows it's not their job to bend over backwards for her.  And when challenged, she really cannot find too many examples of her co-workers being that evil or intentionally malicious towards her.  Deep down, she knows her behavior is an issue.  The reality is she has a feeling that she doesn't belong, or that she's a terrible person, and her constantly trying to validate herself eventually gets tiresome.  Think of us nons - we grow tired of constantly having to validate them in order to keep the peace we are doing their emotional work for them.  Just imagine if you were the pwBPD!

Obsessive thinking is another example.  My fiancé will obsessively think about something that really can't be solved, or doesn't make much rational sense.  She knows it is a waste of her time to think about.  She knows it stresses her out to think about.  She knows she has this problem.  yet she continues.  How is she supposed to stop this?  By continuously and consciously telling herself to not think about it?  To constantly distract herself?

It just seems to me that all that work she has to do just to remain emotionally level wouldn't need to be done if she knew who she was.  And I don't think I can know what that feels like to her.  It's more than just having a poor self esteem, which I can understand and relate to.  It's more than just an inability to be alone.  I think there is a comforting feeling of knowing who we are that my fiancé seems to lack. 

I wonder if long term therapy for BPD, and our roles as supportive partners, would be more successful if we focused more on helping them develop a sense of identity (help them answer what they like to do for fun) than solely focus on them being mindful of their behavior.  It just feels like spinning wheels right now - I want her to think about her behavior and how it affects her life and get a better handle on her behavior and emotions.  But the reality is, she is already thinking about that, it's just that after years of trying to validate herself and change herself, the feelings haven't followed.  As we all know, it's very tiresome to try and try and have things still feel crappy.  That's what half the posts on this board are about!

[Heartandsole]

As Waverider says: "This is the Black hole principle. You can keep tipping your resources into it. It disappears continuously, there is nothing to show for your efforts, the hole persists. Eventually you run out of resources. The hole is no different it is still trying to draw stuff into it... .

Being around a needy person can suck the life out of you if you dont impose limits you are comfortable with.

It is a personality trait, it is hard to stop without help. So you have to learn to with it, without being dominated by it."

The Black Hole Principle sure will wear you out. Being a "nice guy" I let it dominate me until there was nothing left of me.  I have been worn down to a shell of myself to the point that I couldn't take care of myself, much less my wife, and being in such a devaluing hyper toxic relationship was too much to bear.  The brain washing and the constant fighting in circles late into the the night... .no sleep or sleeping on the couch so I was never rested... .off to work, back into the frying pan at night.

I've been seperated for 3.5 months and now I feel like I have some peace and some energy to put back into the relationship, but honestly the "Black Hole" is going to take everything I've got again.  I am still orbiting around this black hole contemplating divorce, because I don't want to touch that event horizon now.

My wife has constantly told me I have "never taken care of her" "never put her first" "never taken care of ___" and "NEVER made her feel SAFE".  Really?  Never in fifteen years and 10 years of marriage?   

In my head I'm asking myself ":)o you not remember me taking care of you through Chemotherapy?  Supporting you for years when you couldn't work?  Putting you through schooling?  Remember when you got arthritis so bad you couldn't get on or off the toilet yourself or even work your hands to rip the toilet paper, dress yourself?  Remeber when you got shoulder surgery and I was there for you?  When I couldn't be there, I hired in help to get you dressed in the morning so I could go make money for our family. 


NEVER in 10 years have I taken care of you?  The whole time you telling me I am a weak human being, you are embarrassed to be married to me and it would be a disgrace to bring a child into this world with me as the father... .all the while I never ONE time held in your face that you could not give me a child because you went through Chemotherapy induced menopause at age 26 (cancer three weeks into our marriage).

Sorry guys, this thread just made me angry and I needed to vent!  I love this woman still, but I am sick of being told I am a failure at being a human and a husband... .  She is right.  I have failed to fill a black hole which consumes all matter and everything that matters.

[waverider]

.

My wife has constantly told me I have "never taken care of her" "never put her first" "never taken care of ___" and "NEVER made her feel SAFE".  Really?  Never in fifteen years and 10 years of marriage?   

In my head I'm asking myself ":)o you not remember me taking care of you through Chemotherapy?  Supporting you for years when you couldn't work?  Putting you through schooling?  Remember when you got arthritis so bad you couldn't get on or off the toilet yourself or even work your hands to rip the toilet paper, dress yourself?  Remeber when you got shoulder surgery and I was there for you?  When I couldn't be there, I hired in help to get you dressed in the morning so I could go make money for our family. 


NEVER in 10 years have I taken care of you?  The whole time you telling me I am a weak human being, you are embarrassed to be married to me and it would be a disgrace to bring a child into this world with me as the father... .all the while I never ONE time held in your face that you could not give me a child because you went through Chemotherapy induced menopause at age 26 (cancer three weeks into our marriage).

Sorry guys, this thread just made me angry and I needed to vent!  I love this woman still, but I am sick of being told I am a failure at being a human and a husband... .  She is right.  I have failed to fill a black hole which consumes all matter and everything that matters.

This dismissal of our efforts with absolute statements, a perceived shortfall is described as never, really does cut to the core. Even when you know it is just a passing frustration it it still rings bells. I still find it frustrating, but as general levels of conflict in our RS has reduced now to minimal levels I can find the humour in it now so it passes. But still at times I just walk away when she starts this.

I think about times when say a I cant find something I make frustrated growling statements like " I can never find XYZ, I'm always loosing it"... Again absolute statement. Reality is I probably misplace the item 1 time in 50, but at that time it feels like always... Its much the same thin,. The difference is I can accept responsibility for it. pwBPD can't, so you are it. .

You are not responsible for it, deep down they know it, but their frustration is too great to keep in, so they just blow a passing smokescreen. Otherwise to admit it again goes into absolutes, they haven't just screwed up this time they ALWAYS screw up. That is the path into self hatred and depression

[tayana]

I do think the lack of a sense of self is part of the issue.  My pwBPD has stated many times that she doesn't know who she is anymore.  She takes very little pleasure in anything and in the past has become consumed with various tasks.  She'll focus all her energy into the task and if her view becomes jaded, then she is done with it and goes into a depression, often with a lot of vindictive anger toward individuals she had been involved with.  She co-ran a puppy rescue for a while, and then she started to clash with the founder and suddenly dropped all contact with her.  Then she started sending hateful messages and playing tricks on her because it made her feel better.  She sabotaged my relationship with my own mother by starting email conversations with her because she liked, "Playing the woman."  My mother is NPD and possibly BPD as well.  I didn't want contact with her since the woman is toxic, but my partner convinced me I should try to repair the relationship, so she "helped" by trying to explain things to my mother by pretending to be me or my son and talking via email.  Once she started to hear my mother's version of the story, suddenly everything I told her was a lie.  She got super involved with our church until she started getting tired of the politics, and now does things just to irritate various people.  Right now she is so unstable that she can barely function and was just rehospitalized.  She repeatedly tries things to find herself to find her purpose in life and what she is meant to do, and if she fails then she is no good to anyone.

My wife has constantly told me I have "never taken care of her" "never put her first" "never taken care of ___" and "NEVER made her feel SAFE".  Really?  Never in fifteen years and 10 years of marriage?  

I identify with this so much.  It doesn't matter how much you do or how much you give up, it's never enough.  Nothing is ever quite good enough or sincere enough or real enough or heartfelt enough.  According to my partner, I have never done anything for her, even though I am the sole supporter of our family.  My job means nothing to her.  She expects me to take off work at a moment's notice.  I paid off her car that was about to be repoed when when first got together.  Bought her a new car.  Took care of her when she was sick.  Had a child for her, and was then told that it was her child and I was expected to give up all of my rights so she could be his mother.  Then after almost two years of repeated hospitalizations, I'm not a good enough parent, even though I've been the one that has always been there for him.  I've had to explain why his "mama" isn't there to tell him night night.  I've had to deal with trying to explain where she is, what happened, and that she has an ouch.  Then she's jealous because he is now closer to me than her.  She even had the gall the other day to tell me that I don't do anything with him at home, even though as soon as I get home, he is attached to me and we have to do everything together.  My three year old is now more competent in the kitchen than his teenage brother because my partner would get upset that she had to watch him while I made dinner and I wasn't asking her to do so.  I thought that was a logical thing.  No toddlers near the stove,etc.  She didn't see it that way, so he's been "cooking" with me for two years.

Living with BPD is a black hole that drains all your energy.  My partner has requested that I not talk to anyone about my frustrations with her or her recovery.  If she sees a text on my phone, she will read through the thread just to see what I said about her.  Most of the time I feel like I live with a time bomb and am just waiting for it to explode.

My relationship with my partner isn't a real relationship.  We no longer share a bed, have little to no intimacy other than me holding her, and our lives are centered around making her less upset.  I have to explain to my children that she doesn't feel well and that's why she doesn't want to do XYZ.  Or that she needs some quiet.  She literally got jealous of our cat the other night because it was sitting in my lap and I wasn't paying enough attention to her.  She says she is "there for me." But I long ago stopped expecting her to support my feelings, in fact, the opposite is usually true.  If I try to "Vent" about anything to her, my feelings are somehow wrong and unjustified and I need to think about the situation from a different viewpoint.  I have just accepted that no matter what I do it won't be enough.

[maxsterling]

Geez, tayana.  You sure have a full plate.  I feel for you.  I've dealt with much of the same attitude, but not nearly to the level you have.  But you also have many more years with your pwBPD.

I hear ya on what you say about her being consumed with tasks but taking little pleasure.  I've seen it with my fiancé.  Over the course of a year and a half, she has told me about various things she likes to do, but haven't seen her do any of them.  And I can't recall once where she has said "I'm going to go out and do this by myself" and then come home and tell me she had a good time. If she goes out with friends, she's never very excited to go.  Friends often have to drag her out (she even admits to this).  If she wants to do whatever and I am not available, she won't go, or will go and then come home complaining about how miserable it was.   

Conversely, I know what I like.  When I do those activities, I get a feeling of joy or satisfaction.  Sure, there are times when I may not feel like doing those activities, but I would say most of the time once I start into them, I feel better.  It doesn't matter if I do them by myself or with others. 

I don't think it's just an issue of needing to develop interests or boost self esteem.  I had a friend for a long time who would be really into whatever his friends were into.  When he got new friends, he'd get new interests.  If he really liked the activities he got introduced to, you would think he would continue on his own, no?  And people I know who have low self esteem usually have it with a few aspects of life, but turn to other areas of interest as coping mechanisms.  I could consider myself an example of that. 

I just don't know how one would go about solving those empty feelings.  Daily affirmations don't really address this.