How to PROTECT our kids

[Robins0n]

What I would have wished most for, though, was my mom stating really, really, really clearly in some delicate way at any time of her choosing that my father's behavior was not really o.k.

What an eye opener and food for thought this sentence was for me   I too grew up with a scary father and was looking for what you're describing my whole childhood - wouldn't that be what my own children are looking for, too? Unbelievable how I couldn't see this.

Of course, this kind of support could very easily backfire, regardless of it having been provided in the presence of the other parent or not. The child could use this in their next battle with pwBPD directly and potentially worsen the deregulation ("It's not ok to ... .Mommy!". Hmm... .what's worse? Leaving the child to their own devices out of fear to equip him with tools he can't handle yet or send him into battle? Since leaving the child to their own devices is not an option for me, it must either be the ill-equipped battle or the 'delicate way', as KateCat called it, which I'm completely clueless about   Is there a way to convince your child that an action by the pwBPD isn't ok - as pragmatic as necessary (to convince the child) and delicate as possible (to not trigger the pwBPD)? If so, I certainly haven't found it yet.

... .but in the end, I keep asking myself "What sort of relationship of peers will this (n)ever be?"

Well said.

This exact thought burns me out too sometimes. I'm trying to accept the fact that in certain areas, the relationship I HAVE is not the relationship I WANT; however, in my case, the benefits of making it work outweigh the risks associated with ending it... .and sometimes, there's clear skies and sunshine to enjoy, too

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[KateCat]

this kind of support could very easily backfire, regardless of it having been provided in the presence of the other parent or not.

No kidding! I don't know how this can actually be done. It seems more possible to provide different narratives to kids when there are two separate households, and in that case kids figure out that parents do not always see eye-to-eye.

But kids who spend their entire childhoods in confusion of this sort do look for ways to blame themselves for their troubled families. Because my dad was an academic, I had somehow convinced myself that he was permanently "mad" because none of us kids got all A's on our report cards all the time. Given that my brother was taking calculus classes at the state U when he was in high school and that I went on to become Dr. KateCat myself, that seems a reach.  But it made sense to me.

I've seen a few older episodes of Dr. Phil wherein Phil plays a video of parental behavior that seems BPD. And then he says things like, "That's not OK." Or "This changes who a child is." But it's only TV and he's not really providing a fix or anything.

[KateCat]

This might work... .think long and hard before doing it... .

Got to be in a calm supportive mood.  Ask her what she was feeling when she "stomped" the fridge.  Don't focus much on the stomping... .but keep it in the conversation.  Keep most of the focus on her feelings.

Understand and validate those... .maybe at some point you can transition to how to help make those feelings better... .less intense.

Thoughts?

formflier, do you think this could be practiced in the presence of the kids? In a kind of two-birds-with-one-stone way? Such that the kids receive validation indirectly that they are not in fact to blame?

Hmm. Sounds to me potentially powerful.

[formflier]

This might work... .think long and hard before doing it... .

Got to be in a calm supportive mood.  Ask her what she was feeling when she "stomped" the fridge.  Don't focus much on the stomping... .but keep it in the conversation.  Keep most of the focus on her feelings.

Understand and validate those... .maybe at some point you can transition to how to help make those feelings better... .less intense.

Thoughts?

formflier, do you think this could be practiced in the presence of the kids? In a kind of two-birds-with-one-stone way? Such that the kids receive validation indirectly that they are not in fact to blame?

Hmm. Sounds to me potentially powerful.

Sure... .I think it could be tried either in their presence... or without it.

I think the key is that you don't want to start this when you know they are tetering on dysregulation... .

That being said... don't want until the "perfect day"... .it won't come.

[formflier]

 

Hey... .just wanted to provide my input on the proper "theory" or principle that we are all after.

Sometimes principles and "tactics" get mixed up. 

If you don't get the principle of the matter correct... .chances of getting the correct tactic are pretty low.

Here goes.

Best way to raise healthy happy well adjusted kids is to have to loving parents that openly show that love in front of the kids.  Loving and "perfect" are not the same... .focus on love... .stay away from perfection.

So... .if you have a limited amount of energy (and most of us do... pwBPD can sap that energy)... .it is usually best to focus that energy on improving the marriage r/s rather than the r/s with the children.

Yep... I said it... .focus on the marriage r/s... .let the child be secondary. 

Shocking?

I don't think so... .

Think about what naturally flows. 

If I said that a great parental r/s will "naturally" create a great marriage... .what would you guys say?

If I said that a great marriage will most likely produce happy well adjusted kids... .what would you guys say?

Obviously... .I think the second question/statement is true... .good marriages produce good children.


Does this mean we blindly keep pouring energy into a failing marital r/s... .nope. 

Livednlearned was mentioned earlier.  A powerful story of a Mom that decided to protect her child... .

That always has to be in our scan... .

Any thoughts?

[waverider]

Awareness of the big picture and the effectiveness of our actions is the key.

Kids are affected more by what happens routinely.

Kids are more affected by being brought up in an environment of a frozen facade of appropriateness, rather that one that contains open affections, and conversely at time disapproval.

Kids are testing boundaries and learning, that is their job. So coming up against rejection and going off in a sulk is part of normal development they dont need sugar coating all the time.

On going pointless conflict between the parents confuses them, especially if they get dragged into a bit of projection.

Of course we cant always have a perfect relationship with our partners, that is the burden of BPD. However we can be seen to do the appropriate and caring thing. That is the priority example to be set. If we are failing as long as we are showing intent, we are still setting a good example

With this principle in mind any boundaries we enact need to be seen to be fair and reasonable without spite.

I too have seen marriages where the parents are always publically appropriate, but without any warmth between them. No thrust and parry, this teaches kids to be afraid to be themselves and often define themselves by material possessions and status (outward image), rather than opening up their soul, even to themselves.

Working on a marriage does not mean keeping a stronger lock on the cupboard full of skeletons. It means letting them out and working on them.

[formflier]

Kids are testing boundaries and learning, that is their job. So coming up against rejection and going off in a sulk is part of normal development they dont need sugar coating all the time.

Huge point to consider.  Some parents seems shocked when kids test boundaries... .they exclaim... I thought we raised them better than this!  What they need to realize it that this is part of the raising... .no a result of the raising.

Working on a marriage does not mean keeping a stronger lock on the cupboard full of skeletons. It means letting them out and working on them.

Well said!

[KateCat]

formflier (who is certainly a hero parent along with livednlearned),

"Help me to understand." Because I think the gist of what you're saying on this thread is escaping me in a fundamental way. . . . Do you not think your kids need protection specifically from their mother's behaviors?

[formflier]

formflier (who is certainly a hero parent along with livednlearned),

"Help me to understand." Because I think the gist of what you're saying on this thread is escaping me in a fundamental way. . . . Do you not think your kids need protection specifically from their mother's behaviors?

 

Someone has been reading my posts... and picking up on my favorite lines... .

And now the force is being used against me... .

Yes... .the kids need protection... .but... .what is the best way to do that... .this is a "tactical" discussion.

Especially with people that are fairly early on in learning about how to deal with BPD... .and they are still figuring out how much "better" their r/s with a pwBPD can be.

So... .think of it like this. 

I have a limited amount of energy... .I can put that energy into protecting my kid... .and it works today... .and I'm out of energy.  So... .not much validation went towards the pwBPD... .so they don't get better... .and tomorrow.  The kid needs protecting again... .energy gets used up protecting the kid... .not much validation to pwBPD... .so pwBPD doesn't get better... .and the cycle keeps repeating.

Now... .what I wanted to point out is that long term (especially for stayers)... .it may be best to minimize energy going towards kids and maximize it going towards pwBPD... .especially if you are starting to see some impact of using tools and lesson. 

BECAUSE!  If this works out... .then there should be less dysregulation... .and less need to protect the kids... .and more energy to dump into the r/s... .which leads to less dysregulation... .which leaves more energy to do other things with.

Obviously there are some situations where kids need to be protected... .regardless of impact on the pwBPD... .

I was trying to make a general statement about where to focus limited effort... .

Understand better now?

[waverider]

formflier (who is certainly a hero parent along with livednlearned),

"Help me to understand." Because I think the gist of what you're saying on this thread is escaping me in a fundamental way. . . . Do you not think your kids need protection specifically from their mother's behaviors?

Protection, but not complete isolation from the fact that the behavior exists.

eg If a parent decends into a screaming banshie at times, that is who they are. You cannot hide this from the kids. You protect them from the effect and let them know you will keep them safe.

There is much value in teaching them ways so they see it as an"episode" if you like, and to not be afraid of that parent, to understand that the nonsense and threats that spew forth are not as deeply held as they may seem. Have their own "escape plan" if needed, much as we do.

Kids are quite capable of rationing that mum/dad is acting like a complete fruitcake at the moment, I will just go outside/to my room put my headphones on and avoid them until they "get over it'. Let the other parent deal with it.

They do that at the drop of a hat anyway. Sometimes I think they could teach us better coping skills. They are learning, we are not used to learning new things, hence we have trouble adapting.

If you as the non are trying to cover it up, put it back in the closet and pretend everything is fine this leaves the kids scared of the bogey in the closet. If you are acting scared for the kids they will believe there is something to be scared of

If your kids can do this they are not splitting your attention and you can then just focus on interacting with your partner, which also will not trigger your partner into the "taking sides' argument.

Being constantly in the middle, handicaps your efforts. So separate the the two parties and focus on the pwBPD.

[KateCat]

Hey, waverider, I didn't ask you! 

There is no doubt on God's green earth that you are out of the FOG.

[formflier]

Being constantly in the middle, handicaps your efforts. So separate the the two parties and focus on the pwBPD.

My hat's off on this one... .a much simpler way to put it. 

[KateCat]

formflier,

I'm sorry if I seemed to suggest that you are not aware of the kids' needs. I genuinely look forward to hearing of your efforts and your learning curve as you return to the family home. (Or has that already happened?)

[formflier]

formflier,

I'm sorry if I seemed to suggest that you are not aware of the kids' needs. I genuinely look forward to hearing of your efforts and your learning curve as you return to the family home. (Or has that already happened?)

No worries... .ask away... .and I didn't think you were suggesting... .just clarifying.

I still don't sleep in the home... .but spend tons of time over there.  Lots of individual and group time with the kids.  Focused more on individual time... .so that each kid clearly understands they have a separate r/s with me.

Things keep moving towards reunification with my wife and I.  Most of focus has been on being effective parents and building a friendship... .or building it back. 

Very little focus on romance.  Cracked the ice on the romance over the weekend.  Got away for a couple days with her with no pretext other than to spend time alone and work on our r/s. 

I should probably create a new thread to update things... .but there has been no dramatic "one thing"... .just lots of small baby steps towards back together.

Honestly... I'm anxious to get going.  However... .me constantly pestering or badgering about it isn't going to help so I put my focus on other places... .

She, I and some of the kids are doing some individual work as well as family T work.  That is keeping us all pointed in same direction.

I still do MC with wife as well... .focused mostly on empathy and understanding each others emotions.

I'll have to get an update out soon... .

[KateCat]

Well, you are indeed a hero dad.

It's a great big thing for a healthy man in vigorous middle age who has a lot to enjoy in life . . . to put the brakes on all of that one fateful day and do what you have done for your family.

[formflier]

Well, you are indeed a hero dad.

It's a great big thing for a healthy man in vigorous middle age who has a lot to enjoy in life . . . to put the brakes on all of that one fateful day and do what you have done for your family.

Thanks... .and what a fateful day that was... .

I knew that my family would never again be the same... .and it hasn't... .that is a good thing.


For those that are thinking about protecting children or taking a big stand.  Sometimes that is needed to get things "unstuck" in a r/s.  One thing that is scary about getting unstuck... .is that nobody knows where this will end up.  There were times I figured we were getting divorced.  I was not for this... .but also realized that it was out of my control.  Currently my thinking is that we will get back together as a "normal" family unit.

I am for this... .but have to realize that ultimately this is also outside of my control.  I'll do my best... .and deal with what actually happens.

I  continue to sail into "uncharted waters" in my r/s with my wife and family... .

[ydrys017]

Yes... .the kids need protection... .but... .what is the best way to do that... .this is a "tactical" discussion.

Especially with people that are fairly early on in learning about how to deal with BPD... .and they are still figuring out how much "better" their r/s with a pwBPD can be.

So... .think of it like this. 

I have a limited amount of energy... .I can put that energy into protecting my kid... .and it works today... .and I'm out of energy.  So... .not much validation went towards the pwBPD... .so they don't get better... .and tomorrow.  The kid needs protecting again... .energy gets used up protecting the kid... .not much validation to pwBPD... .so pwBPD doesn't get better... .and the cycle keeps repeating.

Now... .what I wanted to point out is that long term (especially for stayers)... .it may be best to minimize energy going towards kids and maximize it going towards pwBPD... .especially if you are starting to see some impact of using tools and lesson. 

BECAUSE!  If this works out... .then there should be less dysregulation... .and less need to protect the kids... .and more energy to dump into the r/s... .which leads to less dysregulation... .which leaves more energy to do other things with.

Obviously there are some situations where kids need to be protected... .regardless of impact on the pwBPD... .

I was trying to make a general statement about where to focus limited effort... .

Understand better now?

Wow!  This is me  :'(  I've been focusing on the kids completely, house chores, my job, etc... .and am too exhausted to even communicate with uBPDw on anything but utilitarian topics.  I so don't want another dereg session, but it started this morning - it was due... .  So, now I'll be forced to deal with it tonight, most likely with kids present.  I've prepped myself today by watching the Dr Alan Fruzetti video on validating.

[Robins0n]

It seems more possible to provide different narratives to kids when there are two separate households, and in that case kids figure out that parents do not always see eye-to-eye.

I agree - but at what price? What about the initial separation where the kids have to deal with the fact that one parent is permanently moving out of their house, the potential divorce battle they might get sucked into, the potential lies told by the pwBPD about you - after all, separation is the ultimate rejection, the (unjustified) shame for having a broken home, etc. - in my opinion, separation is a very risky if not doomed investment, if your priority is the well being of your kids.

Before I get bashed, I'd like to add that, in my opinion, the lack of actively and consistently working on your marriage with a pwBPD and instead simply 'holding on' must be far worse than anything a separation can ever do to a child.

So... .if you have a limited amount of energy (and most of us do... pwBPD can sap that energy)... .it is usually best to focus that energy on improving the marriage r/s rather than the r/s with the children.

Yep... I said it... .focus on the marriage r/s... .let the child be secondary. 

Very interesting! This approach has certainly worked for us and I wasn't even aware of it until you put it into words. I wonder if this tactic is 'enough', once the kids are older and potentially become full-time triggers for dysregulation episodes themselves.

I so don't want another dereg session, but it started this morning - it was due... .  So, now I'll be forced to deal with it tonight, most likely with kids present.  I've prepped myself today by watching the Dr Alan Fruzetti video on validating.

What works for me is to remind myself right before I get home that while I'm not always entirely sure what to say during an episode, one thing is certain: being defensive WILL make it worse. Also, think about formflier's tactic (marriage 1st, children 2nd) - if he's right (which I believe he is), this should eliminate some of your anxiety associated with your kids being present tonight. Focus on improving and not worsening things with the wife tonight. Good luck! 

[ydrys017]

Waited until the kids were in bed, removed myself from the conversation 2x to take a walk - 2nd one was at midnight, and I know from experience that late night attempts at communication do not end well!  Her final response was that she wants a divorce    I've heard it enough times now that it doesn't sting as it used to, I simply tell her that she has that option and needs to live the outcome.  A few small fires since then, not a fun time... .

[formflier]

Waited until the kids were in bed, removed myself from the conversation 2x to take a walk - 2nd one was at midnight, and I know from experience that late night attempts at communication do not end well!  Her final response was that she wants a divorce    I've heard it enough times now that it doesn't sting as it used to, I simply tell her that she has that option and needs to live the outcome.  A few small fires since then, not a fun time... .

What do you say when she wants a divorce... .

My favorite... .is an even... .non-reactive... ."I'm sorry you feel that way... .".

Then move along to a totally different topic... .

Don't show shock... .don't show fear... .

[ydrys017]

I tell her that it is not what I want, and that is her decision.  Honestly, I'm not sure that she is able to actually make that decision, and I now refuse to live in fear of that threat... . 

[formflier]

I tell her that it is not what I want, and that is her decision.  Honestly, I'm not sure that she is able to actually make that decision, and I now refuse to live in fear of that threat... . 

You most likely invalidate her by saying that... .

If she feels you want a divorce... .and you say you don't... .invalidation.

Better to say "Sorry you feel that way... ." and move along... .don't pay the threat any more attention.