Wife Wants Divorce With No Attorneys

[Boss302]

Thanks for support

I had a psychiatrist of some sort for about 30 years of my life.  latest one for past 12 years, but stopped going couple of months ago because just could not afford it anymore.  I mean i will still see him from time to time but not regularly like i was.  He and I have gone through all of this before, and I know what he will say.  Some reason I just have a hard time detaching what she feels from being the reality i believe...

Then I would definitely suggest a therapist or counselor that's tuned into your current situation, if the old one isn't affordable and doesn't meet your current needs. The one I saw cost about $50 per session, which wasn't easy to afford at the time of my divorce (which bled me dry financially), so I didn't do it, but I started seeing one regularly after the divorce, and it was well worth it. Often times, there are mental health agencies that take clients on a sliding-scale basis. I'd definitely suggest finding one - from what you've posted, I really think you need someone to talk to that can support you professionally through this.

I'd also suggest that seeing a therapist can be an effective tool in court if you're being hit with false accusations. At the time I was being dragged through court, I wasn't seeing anyone professionally, and I wish I had - the counselor I eventually went to could have interfaced with all the "experts" on my case and assured everyone that the "anger issues" I had at my BPDx weren't irrational or caused by mental issues on my part - they were being caused by her behavior, which was ATROCIOUS.

Do it even you have to cut something out. You're going to need all the help you can get if you want to emerge from this emotionally healthy and "present" for your kids.

[Boss302]

It is great that you have invested so much into therapy in your past.  One thing that a good friend of mine told me that gave me a different perspective when I was in the throes of indecision about staying/leaving is that he asked me what I would advise HIM to do if he was in my shoes.  For some reason I was able to remove my own emotion and tap into more logic.  Just a thought for you and the rest of your support group here: 

Would you consider telling all of us a dialogue of what you think you would say to your T now, and what you know he/she would say back to you? 

Potentially it would be good for you to hear yourself say it, and it may help us know how to support you better as well.  You obviously have a crowd of people here that care about you!

I would talk about the emotional abuse and toll that my wife is taking on me.  Her rages, her mistakes, her demands.  The insults and blaming and questioning me as a good person and husband.  I would say I feel guilt and shame.  I feel I am inadequate.  I feel scared.  Very scared.

And my question for you would be: what have you DONE to deserve the guilt and shame, and feelings of inadequacy? I don't ask accusingly - I want you to think of what you've actually done to deserve these feelings.

[hurthusband]

It is great that you have invested so much into therapy in your past.  One thing that a good friend of mine told me that gave me a different perspective when I was in the throes of indecision about staying/leaving is that he asked me what I would advise HIM to do if he was in my shoes.  For some reason I was able to remove my own emotion and tap into more logic.  Just a thought for you and the rest of your support group here: 

Would you consider telling all of us a dialogue of what you think you would say to your T now, and what you know he/she would say back to you? 

Potentially it would be good for you to hear yourself say it, and it may help us know how to support you better as well.  You obviously have a crowd of people here that care about you!

I would talk about the emotional abuse and toll that my wife is taking on me.  Her rages, her mistakes, her demands.  The insults and blaming and questioning me as a good person and husband.  I would say I feel guilt and shame.  I feel I am inadequate.  I feel scared.  Very scared.

And my question for you would be: what have you DONE to deserve the guilt and shame, and feelings of inadequacy? I don't ask accusingly - I want you to think of what you've actually done to deserve these feelings.

No I see what your saying... feeling those when I really shouldnt... says something

[momtara]

If you stay you may have far higher bills... .she might want you to buy her a new Lexis, you may need more therapy, doctor's bills... .

As for her kids - I've said this before... .all rules have exceptions.  If you contact enough family lawyers in your state, maybe you can find one who can make the case to the judge that you should have some custody of them.  You never know until you try.  You could post on avvo and see.  Don't automatically assume defeat!

[livednlearned]

It is great that you have invested so much into therapy in your past.  One thing that a good friend of mine told me that gave me a different perspective when I was in the throes of indecision about staying/leaving is that he asked me what I would advise HIM to do if he was in my shoes.  For some reason I was able to remove my own emotion and tap into more logic.  Just a thought for you and the rest of your support group here:  

Would you consider telling all of us a dialogue of what you think you would say to your T now, and what you know he/she would say back to you?  

Potentially it would be good for you to hear yourself say it, and it may help us know how to support you better as well.  You obviously have a crowd of people here that care about you!

I would talk about the emotional abuse and toll that my wife is taking on me.  Her rages, her mistakes, her demands.  The insults and blaming and questioning me as a good person and husband.  I would say I feel guilt and shame.  I feel I am inadequate.  I feel scared.  Very scared.

And my question for you would be: what have you DONE to deserve the guilt and shame, and feelings of inadequacy? I don't ask accusingly - I want you to think of what you've actually done to deserve these feelings.

No I see what your saying... feeling those when I really shouldnt... says something

Guilt is a tool we use to keep ourselves feeling something familiar. It's a form of relief, even though it isn't pleasant. It's internalizing what others have said, and then wearing it like a cloak. It starts off their job to hold us down, and then we take over and help them with this work by using guilt.

Sometimes lifting the guilt is more frightening than getting rid of it.

[hurthusband]

It is great that you have invested so much into therapy in your past.  One thing that a good friend of mine told me that gave me a different perspective when I was in the throes of indecision about staying/leaving is that he asked me what I would advise HIM to do if he was in my shoes.  For some reason I was able to remove my own emotion and tap into more logic.  Just a thought for you and the rest of your support group here:  

Would you consider telling all of us a dialogue of what you think you would say to your T now, and what you know he/she would say back to you?  

Potentially it would be good for you to hear yourself say it, and it may help us know how to support you better as well.  You obviously have a crowd of people here that care about you!

I would talk about the emotional abuse and toll that my wife is taking on me.  Her rages, her mistakes, her demands.  The insults and blaming and questioning me as a good person and husband.  I would say I feel guilt and shame.  I feel I am inadequate.  I feel scared.  Very scared.

And my question for you would be: what have you DONE to deserve the guilt and shame, and feelings of inadequacy? I don't ask accusingly - I want you to think of what you've actually done to deserve these feelings.

No I see what your saying... feeling those when I really shouldnt... says something

Guilt is a tool we use to keep ourselves feeling something familiar. It's a form of relief, even though it isn't pleasant. It's internalizing what others have said, and then wearing it like a cloak. It starts off their job to hold us down, and then we take over and help them with this work by using guilt.

Sometimes lifting the guilt is more frightening than getting rid of it.

could you expand on what you mean by that?

Sounds helpful

[livednlearned]

Often when we're young,  someone characterizes who we are for us, and we allow it. A parent, often. Maybe both parents. They may say we are bad, and over time, we figure they must know. Usually they are an adult, a grown up, someone we believe is trustworthy.

We take that script forward with us into adulthood. Then we meet someone who we believe is trustworthy. That person says we are bad, and we think, "Hey, this sounds familiar. It must be true because so-and-so said this to me too."

It becomes familiar to feel bad. Every time something bad happens, we think it confirms the truth, that we're bad. Every time someone accuses us or blames us, we agree. We start internalizing this stuff, and it shows up as guilt. We use guilt to make sure we don't deviate from the "truth" that we're bad. That's what our mom said, or our dad said, so it must be true. They knew us best, right?

I was thinking about this today with the judge in the news (in the US) who might be impeached for being physically abusive to his wife. He was beating her in hotel room and she called for help. The story is that she told her H that she knew about his affair. In response, he beat her. He may lose his job because the DV made headlines. I can just imagine how furious he is, blaming her for causing him to lose his job.

Did she cause him to lose his job, though? Is it her fault he had the affair? Did she deserve to be beaten?

If she is guilt-ridden, and believes she caused him to lose his job, it's because that feeling will feel familiar to her. "I caused him to lose his job by crying out for help." Even though from the outside looking in, the guy had an affair, then when confronted, he lashed out and beat his wife. He is culpable. Public opinion, which doesn't experience guilt, is thinking this guy is an abuser. There is no way to justify what he did. The judge, instead of thinking, "Wow, I'm out of control, having affairs and beating my wife. I guess I had this coming" he is probably thinking, "My wife ruined my career."

A lot of people who are DV survivors, or those who experience abuse -- both as kids and then as adults -- they sort of become co-conspirators by letting guilt shape their thoughts and actions.

Guilt feels very real, and very familiar, and it seems like it's the source of all true thoughts. It seems like it is a reflection of reality.

But it's often a tool (not a positive one) we use to internalize repeated, insistent, chronic negative messages about who we are. Often, that message is coming from someone who doesn't want us to notice that the person generating that message is behaving far, far worse than we are.

[momtara]

Hurt husband, I've followed your story for months and you have suffered a lot and done the best you can and worked near miracles to try to keep it all together.  Whatever happens, you really did your best.

[Moselle]

Guilt feels very real, and very familiar, and it seems like it's the source of all true thoughts. It seems like it is a reflection of reality.

But it's often a tool (not a positive one) we use to internalize repeated, insistent, chronic negative messages about who we are. Often, that message is coming from someone who doesn't want us to notice that the person generating that message is behaving far, far worse than we are.

This is profoundly eye opening to me. Thanks LivednLearned.

How can we rewrite the guilt script?

I guess awareness is the start, but I can imagine recognising when we're feeling guilty, and asking Boss302's question  "what have you DONE to deserve the guilt and shame, and feelings of inadequacy?"

[hurthusband]

I do not know why I have the guilt problem... Both my parents and family and friends and everyone has always told me I am the most kind, considerate person they know.  That I am rational and do what is right always regardless.  My wife is the first person who says otherwise.  I never considered myself the things she says I am until I was with her.  I have never been told those things until I was with her.  I do not know why I accept them as true.  

I suppose I worry I am a fraud that has everyone fooled.  I am selfish and the things she says.

Latest is last week she said she wanted to go the the State Fair in Oklahoma.  Its only a 3 hour drive so I said ok.  Next day I asked instead of the upcoming weekend if we can go the next becasue this past Monday was quarterly taxes and a big bill day. Plus I did not feel it was fair to only give a 4 day notice before taking off since somebody would have to cover for me. I had nowhere near the funds to cover it all and didnt want to charge more things up.  She was a little disappointed but said ok we can do it the next weekend (this weekend).  

I asked my job to let me off the next Saturday and they said yes.  LAter in the week my wife says she needs a new laptop for work.  She wants a Mac cause she is in graphic design now.  I do alot with computers (build them and manage for companies) and I mention that while traditionally Apple is favored by graphic designers in past, Windows computers are now just as good and sometimes better at a greatly decreased cost.  For instance the new Mac Pro 13" is $1350 while you can get an Asus for $1100 15" which has a better processor, graphics card, more storage (now it is a HDD vs an SSD but 128 gb vs 900 gb), more RAM.  Anyways, we let it rest until next week since we gotta get through taxes

This past monday evening (might have been tuesday evening) she says that her sister got her and the 2 kids tickets to her company outing at Six Flags.  I mention that I took off for us to spend togetehr which she forgot.  She said I can do whatever.  One of the kids says he doesnt want to go, and I say if you like I will go.  She says she isnt sure, but ok.  Then yesterday she says she needs Apple cause it doesnt get virus' (which isnt true) and that it has to be the 15" so its $2k.  In addition, its bull___ I am taking off when I know they are going to Six Flags and that I cannot go cause the ticket is for a child only.  I should have changed my day off.  Generally, nobody in management ever takes off the first or last saturday cause of the business we get flooded with.  She knows this.  Plus, it would not have been fair to then change plans at work 4 days before I am supposed to take off it seems.

She goes bezerk.  She says I am a horrible person.  She says she had a horrible day and I did nothing, I was late coming home from work.  Now I had planned on going to work early because I left early the day before cause she was going out with friends and somebody needed to be home with kids.  It was not that early but still did.  I was going to go in that morning to catch up.  One of our sons left the house and did not go to bus stop and I noticed.  I told her and instead of going to work early i searched neighborhood for him until I found him.  Result was I had to make up work, working later.  I did not get flowers because she says she hates when I get flowers the last time.  She says she hates flowers from grocery stores, and she hates places like pro flowers.  At same time she was complaining about spending $1200 on a computer but then raised it to $2k (mind you I do not have $2k to my name right now after taxes and I owe mortgage and bills come the first)... .how is she going to feel spending a minimum of $100 on a premium florist?  I then spend afternoon talking to lawyers about a malpractice suit against doctor that was with her and she states that it is really just not worth the money to represent the case which I understand.  She is upset about that too... She is upset cause she didnt get much sleep cause she was up late drinking til 2 am with friends...

All of this, she tells me we are over.  She then says I have to get her the $2k computer though.  I tell her she needs to accept responsiblity for some of this.  That some of her problems are self inflicted and some are not my fault at all.  I am not a super villian.  She then says she is going to kill herself and hangs up.  It hen have to call around to make sure she is ok.  

I do not know what to do... she says I have 1 hour tonight to get my stuff and move out.  I cannot get all I need to get out. Do I even move out?  :)o I get her the computer she says she needs to work?  Was I wrong about time off?

I am sure that many will say I need to just leave, and that might be so, but I want to know if I did anything wrong for my own sanity.  I can accept I make mistakes and apologize, but I feel I did not do anything wrong... .and that scares me if I did.  I need to know.  The thing that scares me is while I feel that I did nothing wrong, what if I am mentally ill?  What if I am incapable to judge things correctly?  Maybe I DO deserve the shame and guilt even though I do not feel I do because I am mentally ill too

[catnap]

You did nothing wrong.  She expects you to be off and available for her every whim.  She thinks you "owe" her things--WRONG! 

She uses kicking you out and divorce as threats to make you comply with her wishes.

   

I do not know why I have the guilt problem...

 

You have been conditioned by her to feel guilt. 

[livednlearned]

I do not know why I have the guilt problem... Both my parents and family and friends and everyone has always told me I am the most kind, considerate person they know.  That I am rational and do what is right always regardless.  My wife is the first person who says otherwise.  I never considered myself the things she says I am until I was with her.  I have never been told those things until I was with her.  I do not know why I accept them as true.  

I suppose I worry I am a fraud that has everyone fooled.  I am selfish and the things she says.

My experience with this -- and yours might be different -- is that there are layers to this. My family also says positive things about me. But with the help of a therapist, I can see now that actions when I was younger were very different. I was praised for being the good kid, the kind one, the gracious child, the patient, strong, stoic, never-complaining one. I did whatever I could to be all of this so that my parents praised me and accepted me. It made so I never pointed out what was going on in our family. I didn't ever listen to my own instincts, my own feelings, my own interests.

It could be that you were not overtly undermined as a kid, but maybe you were invalidated in an insidious way.

I don't know, just guessing. There is usually a connection between staying with someone abusive and how we were conditioned as kids. For me, it was doubly hard because my dad would say I was perfect, which I liked. Except perfect meant never crying or complaining about having the crap beaten out of me by an older brother, well into my 20s. I was praised for not rocking the boat. Showered with compliments for enduring everything that came my way. It took me a year in therapy to finally recognize the dynamic.

I do not know what to do... she says I have 1 hour tonight to get my stuff and move out.  I cannot get all I need to get out. Do I even move out?  :)o I get her the computer she says she needs to work?  Was I wrong about time off?

Your description of the computer and the day off is very logical. You are behaving in a logical way, and she is not. When she moves the goalposts, how do you feel?

I want to know if I did anything wrong for my own sanity.  I can accept I make mistakes and apologize, but I feel I did not do anything wrong... .and that scares me if I did.  I need to know.  The thing that scares me is while I feel that I did nothing wrong, what if I am mentally ill?  What if I am incapable to judge things correctly?  Maybe I DO deserve the shame and guilt even though I do not feel I do because I am mentally ill too

It's really common for people to question their own sanity in a blame-shifting relationship. When things become so chronically adversarial (ie. always a "winner" and a "loser", it feels like only one person can be right. If she needs to be right at all costs, when you point out that she might not be, she'll step up the blaming so you stop looking too closely at her behavior.

The only way I was able to work through this was by focusing on how I felt. It took me many years to even feel anger - I had pushed it so deep. I wasn't allowed to feel anger in my childhood. Even just a hint of it and I was swiftly put back in my place. Instead, I was rewarded for being "good." Is there anything similar for you in your past?

Once you can connect with your feelings, you can start using those feelings in tandem with how you think. They go to together. Thoughts and feelings. But you have to know how you feel first, and that can take some work if you are accustomed to letting someone else's feelings drive everything.

How do you feel when you think about putting yourself first? What feelings come up? Not thoughts, feelings.

[hurthusband]

You did nothing wrong.  She expects you to be off and available for her every whim.  She thinks you "owe" her things--WRONG! 

She uses kicking you out and divorce as threats to make you comply with her wishes.

   

I do not know why I have the guilt problem...

 

You have been conditioned by her to feel guilt. 

Now that makes sense.  I figured it was that, but never noticed it creeping up on me.  I am not sure if i should get computer now or not.  Short term it makes no sense because even with this job and the pay which is horrific, its not really doing her much good to spend that much.  I know she also wants a Mac even though I know for sure there are better cheaper alternatives.  At same time, when everyone at your job swears by them and its just the culture of your industry, I can understand that.  Art departments are weird... and I know the Mac will be able to be a good computer even if not as good and overpriced.  At least if I leave she can be set up with tools to attempt to support herself.

Maybe that is whole manipulation though.  It seems when i point out that she bears some responsiblity such as the DWI being her fault and not mine, is when I am labeled as saying the most evil things.

I do not know why I cannot just seperate myself from this.  I feel more and more that I am, but the toll on me is quite heavy. 

[hurthusband]

I do not know why I have the guilt problem... Both my parents and family and friends and everyone has always told me I am the most kind, considerate person they know.  That I am rational and do what is right always regardless.  My wife is the first person who says otherwise.  I never considered myself the things she says I am until I was with her.  I have never been told those things until I was with her.  I do not know why I accept them as true.  

I suppose I worry I am a fraud that has everyone fooled.  I am selfish and the things she says.

My experience with this -- and yours might be different -- is that there are layers to this. My family also says positive things about me. But with the help of a therapist, I can see now that actions when I was younger were very different. I was praised for being the good kid, the kind one, the gracious child, the patient, strong, stoic, never-complaining one. I did whatever I could to be all of this so that my parents praised me and accepted me. It made so I never pointed out what was going on in our family. I didn't ever listen to my own instincts, my own feelings, my own interests.

It could be that you were not overtly undermined as a kid, but maybe you were invalidated in an insidious way.

I don't know, just guessing. There is usually a connection between staying with someone abusive and how we were conditioned as kids. For me, it was doubly hard because my dad would say I was perfect, which I liked. Except perfect meant never crying or complaining about having the crap beaten out of me by an older brother, well into my 20s. I was praised for not rocking the boat. Showered with compliments for enduring everything that came my way. It took me a year in therapy to finally recognize the dynamic.

I never had much asked of me.  It makes sense though there must have been something.  My parents have always viewed me as being a better human than them.  I was encouraged to have and feel emotions.  I honestly loved my childhood.  Maybe a little sheltered, but I loved it.

I can think of somethings though that certainly could play a role in me.   My parents divorced when I was 4.  My OCD manifested at that point and I was put in therapy quite fast for it so I always had help with it.  I did miss my father alot, but at same time, I never wanted my parents to get back together because I loved my step father who my mother started seeing when I was near 6.  My mother did work alot and was young so I did spend a good amount of time with my grandparents who were great people too. 

That being said, from an early age I always recognized flaws in those around me.  I demanded myself to be perfect.  I dreamed about being perfect.  I knew it was impossible, but I wanted to be thought of as the best possible as a person.  I was a sickly kid too... so i suppose I spent more time not around people and wanting to be more ideal.  I did not want to drink, curse, or do anything my friends would do as I got older.  I finally relented and I do curse on occasion.  I still feel a need to impress people with who I am as a person.  I do not associate with many people though.  Only really my wife at this time.  She is the one person though who always feels I am inadequate and I keep trying to change her mind... I think that is a problem and why I am manipulated is she knows I need that.

It is possible my parents fed into that when I was a kid, but unintentionally.  I do work with my mother in company business now days as well as run my own business.  My family never cared if I did this or if I did something else there was never any pressure.  I do feel pressure on myself though to prove to people below me that I work as hard as they do and I hate that I have had to cut corners and not work as hard as them cause my wife stuff disrupts my business...

In some ways, I feel I lived in an imaginary world as a kid and set forth goals to life not based on what was told or expected, but what I imagined... I still daydream

I want to know if I did anything wrong for my own sanity.  I can accept I make mistakes and apologize, but I feel I did not do anything wrong... .and that scares me if I did.  I need to know.  The thing that scares me is while I feel that I did nothing wrong, what if I am mentally ill?  What if I am incapable to judge things correctly?  Maybe I DO deserve the shame and guilt even though I do not feel I do because I am mentally ill too

It's really common for people to question their own sanity in a blame-shifting relationship. When things become so chronically adversarial (ie. always a "winner" and a "loser", it feels like only one person can be right. If she needs to be right at all costs, when you point out that she might not be, she'll step up the blaming so you stop looking too closely at her behavior.

The only way I was able to work through this was by focusing on how I felt. It took me many years to even feel anger - I had pushed it so deep. I wasn't allowed to feel anger in my childhood. Even just a hint of it and I was swiftly put back in my place. Instead, I was rewarded for being "good." Is there anything similar for you in your past?

Once you can connect with your feelings, you can start using those feelings in tandem with how you think. They go to together. Thoughts and feelings. But you have to know how you feel first, and that can take some work if you are accustomed to letting someone else's feelings drive everything.

How do you feel when you think about putting yourself first? What feelings come up? Not thoughts, feelings.

Putting myself first... feeling is shame.  I *know* it is okay to put myself first sometimes, but I feel like a I might be being selfish and unreasonable.  Guilt pops up.

I feel I possibly cared as much as I profess, I would put others before myself.  So I do that.  Sometimes, I find people who take advantage of that, but I usually disassociate from them.  I suppose I rely on them to tell me if I am being selfish by how much they take.

Sacrifice... sacrificing my happiness for the happiness of more people seems better for the world.  I do not necessarily like it though.  I suppose there i some of "what would Jesus, the Buddha, or Ghandi do?" that goes on in alot of decisions I make.  The problem is that my wife questions EVERYTHING bout me.  From a rational standpoint... one of us maybe crazy, but which?

I feel that there is no right nor wrong.  There are just a multitude of options.  Each with its own benefit and consequence.  "many ways to skin a cat".  its okay to be wrong.  I feel no hostility towards people making mistakes.  I do feel hostile towards myself making mistakes even though I do not feel that way towards others. 

Maybe I am narcissistic... expecting myself to be better than others since I expect more of myself than I would of others? Maybe it is just my OCD and obsessive thinking over things.  I feel I have a higher tolerance for emotional/mental suffering than others so I deal with it.

I feel a gambit of emotions constantly.  In particulary, I feed off what others feel.  Pain... if I see somebody in pain... it consumes me too.  For instance, if I see my wife in pain... I feel guilty if I am happy over something in my own life.  I feel pain seeing a bug even suffer.  I do not view anything I feel as bad... I always tell my kids and wife it is okay to feel any emotion at any time.  It is what you do in those states that might be right or wrong.  Even then though, while not correct they are not bad.  I mean if somebody hears their wife cheated on them and they punch a wall.  They are right to be angry, it is wrong they punched the wall, but its reasonable to understand why.  They are human.

The most frustrating thing for me is trying to get my wife to understand I feel things and why I do.  In her mind, it is not okay for me to be angry.  She is angry, and she is the focal...

I seem a bit reluctant to say my parents were bad parents or that they caused this in me.  I suppose they could be called absent at times... I felt like in a way... they were young and I grew up with them as they grew up.  I suppose religion certainly played a role on me as a kid.  Not because either parent was super religious.  I mean my dad was Jewish and mother was Christian.  Certainly not ultra followerers of religion but I went to a religious private school.  No real discipline there like you think at a Catholic school, but certainly it permeated everything.  Perhaps all of that with Jesus sacrificing and so forth played a role in what I felt I wanted to be.  I say want, because I do not believe perfection is needed. 

I know one thing that is really messing with me is i never had a girlfriend even before my wife.  A steady girlfriend.  I mean I dated, but by 24, I had never had a real girlfriend.  The result being I guess I was learning about relationship for first time with her which is a BPD spouse.  Result being I had no basis to compare and contrast what is normal based on previous relationships

[ForeverDad]

The most frustrating thing for me is trying to get my wife to understand I feel things and why I do.

And you will keep getting frustrated because she's not listening or reciprocating and likely won't ever listen or reciprocate unless she makes significant progress in long term therapy.  If she refuses to do meaningful long term therapy then you must accept she won't improve very much if at all.  Accept "What Is", not "What You Want".

Are you yet at the point that you can Accept she won't change?  Once you can do that, then it will be easier for you to see your path forward.  Until then you'll still be tempted to walk in circles frustrated as ever or even take some backward steps.

[momtara]

HurtHusband,

First, do not buy the laptop.  It might satisfy her temporarily, if at all.  You know it doesn't last, and in the end, that's less money you have for the next thing.  How long will this unselfish act really help you?  You keep thinking you'll do one more thing, but there's always another thing you have to do to keep the peace, and some of these are expensive, and can't be remotely twisted to be things that are necessities.  You know when you buy her things and give in, it doesn't last forever - and you're in more debt and can't take care of any of you.  You spent $2,000 to save her from a sucky trip with her family and she was grateful for a few weeks, and you felt good, but eventually you were back to being insulted again, called selfish, etc.  You keep buying things.  Set a boundary.   Yes, she will react badly at first, but in the long run she will not keep demanding impossible things.  And if she says she's leaving because you didn't buy her that thing, then it only shows that the next time, she would have left, or the time after that. 

I feel like you do - I am selfish.  I knew my exH was sick and I still had kids with him.  I could have left.  Every single one of us could beat ourselves up.  But you know what?  NONE of us had an idea that our exes were so sick that they were out of touch with reality.  You are not selfish.  You are in love with a sick person.  This person is sometimes wonderful and sometimes awful.  You don't deserve the awful side.  You are so close to the situation and so attached to her that you can't set all the boundaries you should, and that's understandable.

But I know at least spending more money is the wrong thing to do.  Suppose you buy her the laptop and then one of the kids gets into an accident and you need that money, or she makes a false claim about you and you need bail, or something else.  Eff the computer.  She doesn't need it.

[livednlearned]

My parents divorced when I was 4.  My OCD manifested at that point and I was put in therapy quite fast for it so I always had help with it.  I did miss my father alot, but at same time, I never wanted my parents to get back together because I loved my step father who my mother started seeing when I was near 6.  My mother did work alot and was young so I did spend a good amount of time with my grandparents who were great people too.

There is probably a lot going on here, hurthusband. My son (13) has OCD too. One specialist described it as a genetic predisposition to dealing with uncertainty in ritualized ways. I like that definition -- because we all struggle with uncertainty. We don't all respond with ritualized behavior. From what I've learned, OCD is a specific way to manage the anxiety (compulsions or obsessions manifested in rituals) that happens when someone feels uncertain.

Do you think it's a coincidence that you developed OCD at the same time your dad left the family?

I do not associate with many people though.  Only really my wife at this time.  She is the one person though who always feels I am inadequate and I keep trying to change her mind... I think that is a problem and why I am manipulated is she knows I need that.

That makes sense. A lot of us end up isolated for one reason or other. I also look back and realize that I preferred feeling  "stronger than" or better than my partner(s). It made me feel wanted and worthy. Even though I didn't like what my ex was doing, I liked the part where I could feel better than him.   It sounds similar to what you wrote about wanting to feel perfect. It's a fragile way to feel worthy, though, because it's contingent on what someone else says and does. Real self worth isn't like that.

I feel that there is no right nor wrong.  There are just a multitude of options.  Each with its own benefit and consequence.  "many ways to skin a cat".  its okay to be wrong.  I feel no hostility towards people making mistakes.  I do feel hostile towards myself making mistakes even though I do not feel that way towards others. 

Can you see how your wife's hostility toward your mistakes fits into the script you have for yourself too? If you have internalized a type of self-loathing, then it makes it much easier for someone else to turn the dial up -- we become complicit in the dynamic. On the outside, you feel "better than" but inside, and in a very fragile way, you are susceptible to feeling "bad."

Maybe I am narcissistic... expecting myself to be better than others since I expect more of myself than I would of others? Maybe it is just my OCD and obsessive thinking over things.  I feel I have a higher tolerance for emotional/mental suffering than others so I deal with it.

I don't think wanting to be "perfect" is the same as being narcissistic. Perfection is more about wanting things to be certain. What happens when you don't feel certain about something? What if you aren't certain about yourself?

I feel a gambit of emotions constantly.  In particulary, I feed off what others feel.  Pain... if I see somebody in pain... it consumes me too.  For instance, if I see my wife in pain... I feel guilty if I am happy over something in my own life.  I feel pain seeing a bug even suffer.  I do not view anything I feel as bad... I always tell my kids and wife it is okay to feel any emotion at any time.  It is what you do in those states that might be right or wrong.  Even then though, while not correct they are not bad.  I mean if somebody hears their wife cheated on them and they punch a wall.  They are right to be angry, it is wrong they punched the wall, but its reasonable to understand why.  They are human.

But if feelings are not bad, then why try to fix them? Meaning, if your ex is mad or sad or upset or whatever that you won't do x,y,z, or you didn't do it perfectly, then why not let her experience those bad feelings? It sounds like you may struggle with boundaries here.

The most frustrating thing for me is trying to get my wife to understand I feel things and why I do.  In her mind, it is not okay for me to be angry.  She is angry, and she is the focal...

She doesn't have the same goal as you do. Maybe it's: She wants to be right. You want to be perfect.

[hurthusband]

My parents divorced when I was 4.  My OCD manifested at that point and I was put in therapy quite fast for it so I always had help with it.  I did miss my father alot, but at same time, I never wanted my parents to get back together because I loved my step father who my mother started seeing when I was near 6.  My mother did work alot and was young so I did spend a good amount of time with my grandparents who were great people too.

There is probably a lot going on here, hurthusband. My son (13) has OCD too. One specialist described it as a genetic predisposition to dealing with uncertainty in ritualized ways. I like that definition -- because we all struggle with uncertainty. We don't all respond with ritualized behavior. From what I've learned, OCD is a specific way to manage the anxiety (compulsions or obsessions manifested in rituals) that happens when someone feels uncertain.

Do you think it's a coincidence that you developed OCD at the same time your dad left the family?

I think it certainly started to manifest itself as a result of the divorce.  I mean it is genetic and inherited.  It is a chemical imbalance more like bipolar than an obsessive compulsive personality.  The rituals are definitely a means of control, but there is a sort of real psychotic component to it in which you feel there is something out there that will happen if you do not do certain things.  You know its not real, but you still feel it and its a very strong feeling.  You can do things to desensitize it. 

I do not associate with many people though.  Only really my wife at this time.  She is the one person though who always feels I am inadequate and I keep trying to change her mind... I think that is a problem and why I am manipulated is she knows I need that.

That makes sense. A lot of us end up isolated for one reason or other. I also look back and realize that I preferred feeling  "stronger than" or better than my partner(s). It made me feel wanted and worthy. Even though I didn't like what my ex was doing, I liked the part where I could feel better than him.   It sounds similar to what you wrote about wanting to feel perfect. It's a fragile way to feel worthy, though, because it's contingent on what someone else says and does. Real self worth isn't like that.

yes... its codependency

But if feelings are not bad, then why try to fix them? Meaning, if your ex is mad or sad or upset or whatever that you won't do x,y,z, or you didn't do it perfectly, then why not let her experience those bad feelings? It sounds like you may struggle with boundaries here.

i dont want her to hurt, but there is also an element of fear.  she just told me that we are getting a divorce and if i ever want to see children again i will give her the house to start with.  She also said once i find a place to live for myself i can get my things but only with her persmission.  she then started saying horrible things.  i have never heard anyone say the things she was saying to me.  i hung up.  she said if i ever hang up on her again she will destroy the remaining items i have... clothing, work gear, etc. 

the reason i fear her upset is because what she will do.  If she is upset on a trip to Europe at parents and wants a ticket back right then... if i do not get it. she WILL disappear.  She will literally go off someplace and disappear.  She will do something more severe.  She also WILL find a way to punish anyone who crosses her.  Her professor crossed her in college... she made such a stink he lost his shot at tenure.  The abortion doctor probably deserved it, but after we took his license to practice medicine, she wanted him sued and that is partly why she mad at me because no lawyer will take the case.  She will do anything to crush somebody.  Physical abuse has stopped, but it is much better than what i have seen her capable of and what she has done to me.  Since she turned from grief to rage as her main emotion... I do not fear death in and of itself.  I fear hell.  Not sure i would go there for suicide.  I fear hurting those around me.  I do not fear somebody walking in and blowing me away at my job though.  She has already threatened not to hurt me if i do not go along with what she wants, but hurt those i care about. 

The most frustrating thing for me is trying to get my wife to understand I feel things and why I do.  In her mind, it is not okay for me to be angry.  She is angry, and she is the focal...

She doesn't have the same goal as you do. Maybe it's: She wants to be right. You want to be perfect.

she wants to be right.  she doesnt believe i care or love her.  she keeps saying i do not. she keeps saying i feel things i do not.  I try so many ways to explain i love her and i want her happy, but she doesnt believe it

It is literally her saying im doing exactly what she is doing to me but swapping roles.  It is psychotic behavior.  I know thats borderline, but its more time in psychotic than sane now. 

I know I need to get a lawyer, and i need to cut her loose.  I need to be firm and ruthless to save myself.  I do not know why i am hesitant to do it.  Its gotta be more than love because this is not a loving situation

[momtara]

Tape her.  Always.

I made a lot of mistakes because I kept trusting my exH when he got sweet again.  And that's natural.  But always be taping.  You don't want to feel so bad you shoot yourself in the foot and can't take care of yourself.  You can't afford to lose your job.  And you'd like to see the kids sometimes.  She will have to still be in your life in some way.

Those 'you'll never see the kids' threats make people look really bad in family court.  Of course, they are not biologically your kids so it's not the same thing, but I still think you should fight for some visitation with them, esp the one you have helped raise since he was 1.  I don't care about the precedent - time to make a new one.  That's fathering all his life.

[momtara]

"she doesnt believe i care or love her."

She knows.  You have saved her so many times.  Deep inside they know the truth.  She has an illness and it comes out as her pushing you away.   Try not to take it all so literally, hard as it is.  I"m sure after you protect yourself and set reasonable boundaries and start the process, in time, she will have to understand. 

[catnap]

 

I know I need to get a lawyer, and i need to cut her loose.  I need to be firm and ruthless to save myself. 

Yes, as hard as it may seem, you do need to get a lawyer.  You gave several examples on how she has crushed people in the past, so it is imperative that you set the wheels in motion to protect yourself. 

[ForeverDad]

Can you re-read this thread?  There are many here who have been burned and managed to survive.  We've been there, done that.  Read what you've written and our concerned replies.  It's natural to feel your case can't be as bad as what some of us have experienced.  Maybe it won't be as bad as we fear.  Or maybe it will.  But no one, not even you, can promise it won't get worse, much worse.  Learn from our experiences, try to avoid as much of our sufferings as possible.

[Grey Kitty]

Wow, this is sounding really tough for you. I wish you strength, and hope you take the good (and hard-nosed) advice you've got here already.

She also WILL find a way to punish anyone who crosses her.

When I read things like this... .I see getting divorced without a lawyer working out like this:

1. She makes unreasonable demands for everything.

2. You agree to those unreasonable demands.

3. She is unhappy/dysregulates despite getting all you could give her.

4. She decides to destroy you as punishment anyway, after already getting everything in the divorce.

I'd recommend you follow the stories of "high conflict divorces" here, to see what you are getting yourself in for, and what you can do about it.

Hang in there--you do have people here who care and will support you. Here for sure, and probably some at home will surprise you as well.

[momtara]

[4. She decides to destroy you as punishment anyway, after already getting everything in the divorce.[/quote]
Exactly.  Giving up everything will make it worse in the long run.  Lawyers are expensive, agreed.  You can get some free consultations and see if you can do it inexpensively.

[livednlearned]

My ex is a former trial attorney. He threatened many things during our marriage -- no judge would ever award me custody, N/BPDx would see to it, he knows how the system really works, etc. He would prevent me from getting my degree by telling my department what I was really like. He would make sure I lived in section 8 housing, he would destroy my reputation, ruin my career, have Homeland Security investigate the legitimacy of my citizenship. 

I look back now and it's hard to imagine I ever believed a word that came out of his mouth.

He did try to get custody, and the opposite happened. I have full custody.

He did try to ruin my reputation at work. My boss reported his emails to campus police and legal counsel.

He did try to ruin my reputation at school (he has colleagues there) but I have seen no ill effects. If anything, my advisor, the dean, and the associate dean have become even more supportive of me.

I did lose the relationship I had with my adult step son, which is acutely painful. I hope one day to have a relationship again with him.

I'm not living in section 8 housing.

N/BPDx has become a thorn in my side with court stuff, but he's an attorney and turns out to be very dedicated to keeping me engaged in court. He doesn't win, just wants to be negatively engaged. But that is as much a function of him being an attorney than anything else, I think.

Are these divorces bad? Yes. They're high-conflict and stressful and expensive.

But with very careful planning and a good attorney, you can stay several steps ahead of your wife.

Plan well, pull yourself together, let people help and support you, and start the healing.

There is a lot you can learn and do before leaving the relationship that will help protect you.

Every day I walk into my home I feel gratitude for all this peace and calm in my life. I can't believe I lived with so much dread and fear, so much self-loathing and anxiety and stress, never knowing who my ex was going to be on any given day, any given hour, one minute to the next.

It's not easy to get here, but it's worth it. 

[ugghh]

Hurt,

My marriage of 26 years ended with the divorce settlement this summer.   My ex uBPDw operated in a similar fashion.  I was always the one who was the primary earner, responsible with finances, etc.  My pay covered 95% of the family's expenses while she spent only 10% of her pay on the family and rest on herself.   I have been fortunate to continue to advance in my career despite the sabotaging actions she constantly subjected me to at work.

In the last 5 years before the divorce I made more money than I ever thought I would in my life - guess how much is left?  Yep, not only is nothing left, she managed to wrack up $20,000 in credit card debt unbeknownst to me in addition to the $15,000 i put on credit cards as I tried to struggle to keep up with her reckless spending.  Every time I objected or tried to curtail her spending somehow I was an ogre or being selfish to ask her to live within our means.  When I look back it literally makes me sick to think about how much was wasted.

Today?  Well today I live in a house that was half the size of my old one.  But all three of my late teen/young adult kids elected to come live with me.  I don't worry about having to put gas for my car on a credit card because she spent $200 at the pet store.  I don't have a $1,000 worth of Tupperware in my cabinet I have one small nesting set from Walmart that was about 10 bucks.  Works just as well for my needs.  Most importantly I have stopped the financial bleeding.  I figure in about a year I will have chipped away over half of the of the debt and within 2 years be truly back on my feet.

One of the truest statements ever about divorcing a BPD - mental health costs money, but freedom (via divorce attorneys, etc.) is priceless.

TO REITERATE WHAT OTHERS HAVE SAID - NO WAY, NO HOW should you approach divorcing a BPD without a very experienced attorney in your corner.  To quote from another board I sometimes visit - stop taking legal advice from your stbx.

[ForeverDad]

To quote from another board I sometimes visit - Stop taking legal advice from your stbx.

Reminds me of a phrase I've seen here - Don't let your ex live rent-free in your head.

Also, a reasonably normal person would reciprocate fairness.  Don't expect that of an acting-out disordered ex.  So while you can be fair, as a court would be fair, don't be overly fair, overly nice, overly gifting or it will be used against you.

[hurthusband]

Regardless of what happens, you are all correct.  I am going to make an appointment to at least talk to an attorney.

I thank you all though for your support.  The hard thing about all of this is having somebody to talk to.

Many people I have alienated as a result of my wife.  Those who remain it is difficult to talk about this sort of stuff.  It is not just cause it is an embarrassment to me, but because if we do go forward, the embarrassment it is to her and my kids that we are sitting at a dinner table with others who know all this horrible stuff.  People just do not understand a BPD person unless they have lived with one.  I do not believe my wife is a bad person.  I do believe she does bad things, but due to being at times insane.  The behavior is not rational, for an adult.  It is rational for a 4 year old.

It is helpful to come here and talk with people who know what this is like.  To know they are not judging, and to know that the humiliation this whole thing is to myself, kids, and wife is not something that we have to walk around with around others knowing about.

[momtara]

There may be others who understand too - they are hiding it like you.

While your attorney will sympathize, be careful not to spend so much time emoting to that person, as they are expensive.  A therapist will help you and also it will look good in court that you are getting the right treatment (if there is a possibility of you getting some visitation with the kids).

You know, there are people who get appointed to be a guardian.  Is it possible you could get visitation despite not being biologically related to the kids?

Maybe just one consultation with a really high powered lawyer would help you.  You can post on avvo.com to find some in your area... .

[Indyan]

yea this is what I was thinking.  Man... what a mess.  The damage is so inflicted by her... I am just confused and given up

I'm there too. My BPDbf (we have a baby) kept mentionning shared custody every time he was angry this year. Then I found out he had seen an attorney "to seek advice about his rights" (?). Then he kept talking about getting separated, with his family involved.

I got so sick of all this that I finally went along, and God knows it was hard. I finally said "OK, we ARE separated and the official date is ... ."

I did all the paper stuff in order to protect myself financially (I stopped working last year to take care of baby), he didn't stop me.

I mean he didn't ask me to stop, but he phoned the Income Support centre (as he says anyway) to tell them we weren't separated... .although he's left me and the kids at the beginning and the summer and has spent all his time with his parents since then (except for a couple of exceptions when he came here, told me he loved me and we made up for a couple of days).

Seeing that it wasn't enough, he's now threatened to send his notice to the landlord (we're renting our house).

And he keeps threatening (although he denies it's a threat) of taking baby FT... .

Yesterday he took baby away for a few hours, I was so scared that he wouldn't bring him back.

So this morning I phoned an attorney. She was very helpful, very understanding. She said "You CANNOT possibly stay in this situation."

I understood that WE and mainly THEY need clearly defined boundaries.

I have no idea though whether that destroys any chance there might be left to rebuild our relationship, or for him to accept marital therapy (he finally said yes yesterday... .weird).

My family don't understand why I still want MT. It's because the T I saw is specialized in BPD and may be able to talk the truth to him and hopefully calm his anger down.

Anyway, I have an appointment with the attorney in one week, and it breaks my heart, litterally.

Am I not adding fuel to the fire?