Do BPD women ever find happiness in a relationship w/o therapy

[tim_tom]

I was thinking about this, alot of the folks here seem to have been (pre bbd) lonely, maybe some self esteem issues, and a caretaker/people pleaser type of role. These seem to be a prime target for BPD women, but these are also the same type of people who get emotionally chewed up and cave  under the constant pressure of BPD relationship tactics. Seems like it could never work as the same qualities that draws the BPD to them, are the same qualities that will destroy the non

I've heard a lot about BPD's going for NPD's, but haven't really spoken to anyone about that dynamic. My experience with BPD's seem to be that they target the nice guys who get sucked in and fall completely for the initial idolization phase. Doesn't seem to fit the NPD mold. Do these relationships work better and that's why we don't see alot of self proclaimed NPD's on here heartbroken? How do these relationships evolve... I think I have a pretty good idea of the above, but not so much this one

Just a thought, hope nobody takes any offense.

[walksoftly]

Hi,

From my own experience (which was painful) she will pick anyone that is available at the time. "water seeks its own level." Imagine being courted by someone who is totally into you- especially when you are going through a difficult time. My ex had an affair(and left me for him) with a man who is going through his third messy messy divorce.

From what I have read, many BPD's have traits of NPD so they seek out easy targets vis a vis men who are needy. Remember the bPD has incredible low self esteem and will be intimidated by men who have high self confidence. She'll go for someone who is needy and she predates on that. But more importantly she'll need adoration COMPLETE adoration.

replacement, new supply, whatever term you want to fix to the new guy; As long as he adores her , thats the game.

[Blimblam]

They put bait out and who ever takes the bait gets them.  The love bombing is to open your heart to them.  Once that connection is established slowly things begin to change.  Npds and people that don't open themselves up don't get hurt as badly.  

Our desire to think of ourselves as special is our own internal thing. 

[Moselle]

No, in my opinion happiness cannot be had by a BPD/NPD without treatment. It is an illness, and without therapy, there is no healthy functioning relationship possible. It's too destructive.

Adoration - that's the game.

But the more you adore, the more the beast needs.

I'm done adoring my BPD/NPD. She'll need someone else for that. I'm happy to respect her, and keep her emotionally safe.

I'm learning that she needs a bit of Narky, to function. I tell her where to get off now and again, and she responds much better to that, than validation.

But she does switch to BPD sometimes which does need validation. I prefer the NPD. I can relate to it.

[tim_tom]

- especially when you are going through a difficult time. My ex had an affair(and left me for him) with a man who is going through his third messy messy divorce.

From what I have read, many BPD's have traits of NPD so they seek out easy targets vis a vis men who are needy. Remember the bPD has incredible low self esteem and will be intimidated by men who have high self confidence. She'll go for someone who is needy and she predates on that. But more importantly she'll need adoration COMPLETE adoration.

replacement, new supply, whatever term you want to fix to the new guy; As long as he adores her , thats the game.

yeah, thats what i mean. I find it hard to believe that an NPD would be reciprocating soulmate and love of my life crap in < 1 month like a more needier guy would

Yeah

[lm911]

Only for short period ot time. It could be weeks or months but I don't think years.

[Skip]

I was thinking about this, alot of the folks here seem to have been (pre bbd) lonely, maybe some self esteem issues, and a caretaker/people pleaser type of role. These seem to be a prime target for BPD women, but these are also the same type of people who get emotionally chewed up and cave  under the constant pressure of BPD relationship tactics.

We might have this backwards.  

People drawn to a pwBPD are generally drawn to the higher than normal idealization.  Who is this?

~ pwNPD traits - they adoration fits with there self image

~ people with low self-esteem - its a boost

~ people from an long term invalidating environment (FOO, tired marriage)

~ people from an acute invalidating environment (e.g., divorce, death, loss of job)

pwBPD are drawn to someone who has a life they feel will complete them and who is very responsive/validating to them.

[tim_tom]

We might have this backwards.  

People drawn to a pwBPD are generally drawn to the higher than normal idealization.  Who is this?

~ pwNPD traits - they adoration fits with there self image

~ people with low self-esteem - its a boost

~ people from an long term invalidating environment (FOO, tired marriage)

~ people from an acute invalidating environment (e.g., divorce, death, loss of job)

pwBPD are drawn to someone who has a life they feel will complete them and who is very responsive/validating to them.

Can you explain what I have backwards? That is kind of what I am saying? Unless I am misunderstanding you

[Skip]

Can you explain what I have backwards? That is kind of what I am saying? Unless I am misunderstanding you

pwBD don't target this profile.  This profile is responsive to BPD.

~ pwNPD traits - they adoration fits with there self image

~ people with low self-esteem - its a boost

~ people from an long term invalidating environment (FOO, tired marriage)

~ people from an acute invalidating environment (e.g., divorce, death, loss of job)

[tim_tom]

pwBD don't target this profile.  This profile is responsive to BPD.

~ pwNPD traits - they adoration fits with there self image

~ people with low self-esteem - its a boost

~ people from an long term invalidating environment (FOO, tired marriage)

~ people from an acute invalidating environment (e.g., divorce, death, loss of job)

Oh I see, it's me saying the BPD targets them, this is kind of what my T said and what I experienced, and what I've seen/read about a lot. Mine came after me like a heat seeking missile, I had to make no effort other then to respond to her. My T said that I have some qualities that women like this sense, and go for.

Now, I am not removing my own culpability, if that is where you are bristling, I happily suspended disbelief and jumped feet first in.

[borderdude]

My BPD seems happy in her new rel. She give him sex, she got to a have relationship witch she craves with obsession , mostly to be in a relationship , normalcy prop.

When he did not get any girls out, he only call her, both are happy , abusing each other.

[Moselle]

My BPD seems happy in her new rel. She give him sex, she got to a have relationship witch she craves with obsession , mostly to be in a relationship , normalcy prop.

When he did not get any girls out, he only call her, both are happy , abusing each other.

Rolfie, that's tough. Sorry to hear that

[Skip]

Oh I see, it's me saying the BPD targets them, this is kind of what my T said and what I experienced, and what I've seen/read about a lot. Mine came after me like a heat seeking missile, I had to make no effort other then to respond to her. My T said that I have some qualities that women like this sense, and go for.

Now, I am not removing my own culpability, if that is where you are bristling, I happily suspended disbelief and jumped feet first in.

I'm saying that a person with BPD is not looking for the things on that list.  She/BPD is not thinking, I need a man in mid-life crisis - oh, theres one - activate pheromones.    He/BPD is not looking for a women who's mother died.  These are the reasons we are vulnerable and latch on.

She/BPD is looking for Prince Charming.  If it is seen in someone, these are the reasons she will latch on.  They are not hunting for the weak... .they are trying to attract a Prince.

[tim_tom]

I'm saying that a person with BPD is not looking for the things on that list.  She/BPD is not thinking, I need a man in mid-life crisis - oh, theres one - activate pheromones.    He/BPD is not looking for a women who's mother died.  These are the reasons we are vulnerable and latch on.

She/BPD is looking for Prince Charming.  If it is seen in someone, these are the reasons she will latch on.  They are not hunting for the weak... .they are trying to attract a Prince.

Well my T seems to think it's a subconscious thing on their part. Here is a wounded soul that will fawn all over me.

I am no expert, just deferring to what my T said very directly, and assimilating all of the stories I read online. The online data pool could be self selecting, maybe people not meeting that criteria never get sucked in so deep and end up posting about it online

[Skip]

I thought I was miscommunicating.  You understand, but don't agree.

OK.  

So there are many studies of BPD/NPD pairings, one type of attachment. We have many members with NPD predisposition or traits.  The woundedness of a NPD is fragile ego which, when triggered, is nasty.

So, is the person with BPD attracted to the fragile ego?  No.  They are attracted to the appearance of  "strength".

What, in turn, attracts the NPD to the BPD is the adoration  - a strength...

Where you attracted to your ex's brokeness?

I wasn't  

It's imortant to see this to get past the preditor / prey thinking.  pwBPD are not predators (strong), they are more like parasites (I hate using that term) in that they are weak and looking for something to hold onto for survival.

[tim_tom]

I thought I was miscommunicating.  You understand, but don't agree.

OK. 

So there are many studies of BPD/NPD pairings (traits). We have many members with NPD predisposition or traits.  The woundedness of a NPD is fragile ego which, when triggered, is nasty.

So, is the person with BPD attracted to the fragile ego?  No.  They are attracted to the appearance of  "strength".

What, in turn, attracts the NPD to the BPD is the adoration  - a strength...

Where you attracted to your ex's brokeness?

I wasn't 

Well, I am not BPD and had no idea she was broken, even thought I should've... .I was attracted to the complete and total instant adoration and the fact that I didn't have to do anything, she pursued me.  (seems common, from stories i read)

I don't think the ex consciously thought of me as doormat potential, just that she sensed it, it was part of the package. My words backed it up as did hers. She's tired of dating jerks and wants a nice guy a change. (although I came to find out the guy she was living with at the time was also a "nice" guy)

Sure, she saw that I was successful and I'm sure the $$ played a role. I am not discounting it.

Like I said in my first post, I believe it's the wounded soul part of us that gets us in so deep, but also is what eventually makes us succumb to their disorder driven behaviors. By the end, I was chewed up and spit out, a shell of my former self. Had I possessed more confidence and esteem, there is simply no way that happens. (imo)

I don't understand if or how NPD would get sucked in so deep, that was part of my initial question.

[Skip]

Well, I am not BPD and had no idea she was broken, even thought I should've... .

And in the same way she most likely didn't know you were broken either... .

She wasn't hugely smarter than you, was she?  Or have more highly refined empathy skills (the ability to understand how someone else is thinking/processing)?  Right?

This might help: https://bpdfamily.com/book_review/joan_lachkar.htm

[Pingo]

Can you explain what I have backwards? That is kind of what I am saying? Unless I am misunderstanding you

pwBD don't target this profile.  This profile is responsive to BPD.

~ pwNPD traits - they adoration fits with there self image

~ people with low self-esteem - its a boost

~ people from an long term invalidating environment (FOO, tired marriage)

~ people from an acute invalidating environment (e.g., divorce, death, loss of job)

I would have to agree, I had other prospective men interested in dating me when I met my uBPDexh but he was exactly what I was looking for (I thought). 

He DID adore me and let me know on our first date.  My self-esteem was at an all time low, I had recently got out of a 10 yr marriage with a man who drained the life out of me with his immaturity.  I was invalidated by my FOO and to top it all off, I had lost control of my teenage daughter whose life was spiralling out of control and my parents went behind my back and moved her out of province to their house 3000 miles away!  So as much as he saw me as vulnerable and the answer to his needs, I saw him as the answer to mine also. 

[tim_tom]

And in the same way she most likely didn't know you were broken either... .

I think that is where you and my T differ. I tend to agree with my T and believe she did know on some level, not right away, but she figured it out pretty quickly. And not because of my T's perceived expertise, for all I know you can be a therapist yourself (i know you started this site afterall, and your opinion obviously commands respect). It's just the only thing that makes sense given how it played out.

I read somewhere the BPD's can be highly attuned to other people. not sure where, as I've read so much it's hard to remember what i read where

[Moselle]

I thought I was miscommunicating.  You understand, but don't agree.

OK.  

So there are many studies of BPD/NPD pairings (traits). We have many members with NPD predisposition or traits.  The woundedness of a NPD is fragile ego which, when triggered, is nasty.

So, is the person with BPD attracted to the fragile ego?  No.  They are attracted to the appearance of  "strength".

What, in turn, attracts the NPD to the BPD is the adoration  - a strength...

Where you attracted to your ex's brokeness?

I wasn't  

Well, I am not BPD and had no idea she was broken, even thought I should've... .I was attracted to the complete and total instant adoration and the fact that I didn't have to do anything, she pursued me.  (seems common, from stories i read)

I don't think the ex consciously thought of me as doormat potential, just that she sensed it, it was part of the package. My words backed it up as did hers. She's tired of dating jerks and wants a nice guy a change. (although I came to find out the guy she was living with at the time was also a "nice" guy)

Sure, she saw that I was successful and I'm sure the $$ played a role. I am not discounting it.

Like I said in my first post, I believe it's the wounded soul part of us that gets us in so deep, but also is what eventually makes us succumb to their disorder driven behaviors. By the end, I was chewed up and spit out, a shell of my former self. Had I possessed more confidence and esteem, there is simply no way that happens. (imo)

I don't understand if or how NPD would get sucked in so deep, that was part of my initial question.

I think they need flexibility in a partner, one who can switch between roles, rescuer, victim, persecutor, to maintain a base level of dysfunction.  A level both are comfortable with.

I'd say I was 80%-NP, 20%-Empath when I met my W. Over 14 years I think I slowly tried to become 20%-NP 80%-Empath, just to adapt and survive what I did not understand.

I got all twisted out of shape. It went to mayhem over that 14 years.

Since my separation 7 months ago, I have felt more NP coming out, I'd say  60%NP and 40% Empath, and would you know it, she's after me like crazy. I'm almost back to where I was when I met her.

But wiser and much more self aware.

[tim_tom]

She wasn't hugely smarter than you, was she?  Or have more highly refined empathy skills (the ability to understand how someone else is thinking/processing)?  Right?

No, not smarter. And if she had empathy skills they weren't combined with sensitivity.

She did always think she knew what peoples real motives, intents and feelings where. Even mine. If I had a nickle for every time she told me why I was really doing something, I could buy a BPD book   But I don't know that her intuitions were always spot on with other people, although they were extremely accurate with me. Scary so, to the point that it greatly increased my feelings of being soulmates. She knew what I was thinking and feeling.

[Rise]

I think skip's point is (and if I'm wrong on this, feel free to correct me) that it's not a hunter/prey complex. People with BPD aren't looking for victims, plotting their downfall from the get go. They aren't looking for the weaknesses  a person exhibits in an attempt to take advantage of them. They are looking at the positive attributes we exhibit. When a person with BPD is attracted to a person with narcissistic traits, it's because they are attracted to their strengths: The outward appearance of confidence and their strong personality. When a person with BPD is attracted to someone on the opposite end of the spectrum, it's because they are attracted to the person's empathy and emotional availability (another strength). In the same way, we were attracted to the "positive" characteristics of our exes.

Well my T seems to think it's a subconscious thing on their part.

I think it's a subconscious thing in most relationships, not just ones involving people with PDs. How many of us sit down and analyze all the reasons why we are initially attracted to a person? How many of us just know that we feel an attraction to someone and accept it? We may do so later to assess the viability of a long term relationship, but how many of us really do that in the initial phases of attraction (or at least did before we got out of our BPD relationships)?

We seek out certain types of people because we are subconsciously looking for someone to fill an emotional need we have. The truth is, I seek out high conflict relationships. But I don't sit there and think to myself, "Gee, this woman looks like she's going to make my life chaotic and turn it upside down". I think to myself, "Gee, this woman looks fun and passionate and is free spirited, etc., etc., etc."

I can't speak to how the mind of a person with NPD works, but I do know a person with narcissistic traits gets pulled in because the person with BPD provides a supply of what they need; same as everyone else. How do I know? Because I had quite a few narcissistic traits of my own when I got into my BPD relationship. Now don't get me wrong, I was not to the PD level, but up until having kids forced me to change, I was all about me and my ego. My BPD ex provided me with the ultimate source of adulation and admiration. It was like crack for my ego, and fed my narcissism like nothing else ever has. It pulled me in, and my addiction to it refused to let go.

[myself]

She/BPD is looking for Prince Charming.  If it is seen in someone, these are the reasons she will latch on.  They are not hunting for the weak... .they are trying to attract a Prince.

So, is the person with BPD attracted to the fragile ego?  No.  They are attracted to the appearance of  "strength".

When they find a Prince, someone who shows strength, it's wonderful for a brief time but then the cracks of reality show a different light. Then the BPD kicks in, in the worst of ways, tearing apart the Prince. Weakening him as much as possible. Either/Or. The pwBPD may have had everything they needed/wanted, but destroy it. A very apparent pattern.

The Prince will use his strengths to help her, to try saving the r/s, and finally turning the focus on himself for self-preservation. But there's also kind of a flaw there that the Prince was susceptible to it. Although dishonesty/disorder are often hard to see or comprehend before more facts are in.

[tim_tom]

I think skip's point is (and if I'm wrong on this, feel free to correct me) that it's not a hunter/prey complex. People with BPD aren't looking for victims, plotting their downfall from the get go. They aren't looking for the weaknesses  a person exhibits in an attempt to take advantage of them. They are looking at the positive attributes we exhibit. When a person with BPD is attracted to a person with narcissistic traits, it's because they are attracted to their strengths: The outward appearance of confidence and their strong personality. When a person with BPD is attracted to someone on the opposite end of the spectrum, it's because they are attracted to the person's empathy and emotional availability (another strength). In the same way, we were attracted to the "positive" characteristics of our exes.

Well yes, I wasn't really suggesting they were hunting, other then in the use of purposely inflammatory terms in other threads. For me and others. Vilifying them a bit is a step in counteracting ALL the blame they dump on you at the end. Disordered or not, it's cruel. I lost the girl I loved in a finger snap, and then spent the last 6 weeks being told how it was all my fault using twisted fiction that made me question my own sanity. It's inhumane frankly. You miss them, your ego is bruised cause they reject you, and they dump a whole heaping pile of shame and guilt in there too for good measure, not to mention the crazy making. I never said that, I never did that, I never wanted that. Sure, one of us lying or severely disassociative

What I am suggesting is that they sense the hidden doormat, and that is part of the appeal. Again, my T said this to me and I agree. I'm sure it's not one size fits all here regardless. This is what I heard from someone who treats them, and resonates with me logically. So there I sit.

In terms of relating it to the non BPD experience. I don't know that we were attracted to their "positive" characteristics. Maybe their looks, but the rest is a mirage. Whether it's intentional or not isn't the point, the infatuation we get is strong and instant and certainly not anything reflecting real depth of feeling. We were silly to buy into the fairy tale for sure, and therein lies our own culpability. The most positive characteristic she had is how much she proclaimed to love me. Good for wounded ego.

[Blimblam]

I really think at the core of the borderline is the victim complex.  Ultimately they don't allow themselves to be happy.  But I think they can find temporary happiness having multiple fwb type relationships with a few "bad guys" to abuse. This is a huge generalization though. Or maybe a polyamorous swinger type situation.

[Rise]

What I am suggesting is that they sense the hidden doormat, and that is part of the appeal. Again, my T said this to me and I agree.

I think we are basically saying the same thing, it's just a different way of looking at it. As I said, we subconsciously seek out those that fill some need we have (regardless of whether or not it's a healthy need). Do pwBPD do the same thing? Yeah.

I don't know that we were attracted to their "positive" characteristics. Maybe their looks, but the rest is a mirage.

Once again I don't think we're that far apart. There is a reason why I put positive in quotes.

[tim_tom]

Once again I don't think we're that far apart. There is a reason why I put positive in quotes.

Got it. Peace man!

Thanks for the intellectual stimulation

[Nomad1027]

So, is the person with BPD attracted to the fragile ego?  No.  They are attracted to the appearance of  "strength".

I couldn't agree more, Skip.  My UxBPDgf is very high-functioning.  Our 2 year relationship (unlike the one with my DxBPDw) was not chaotic, abusive, or volatile. We never even really argued or fought.  We were long distance and that is a big factor that kept me from seeing her BPD traits.  It wasn't until after the break up that the classic BPG behaviors came out:  she painted me black, disconnected fast, found the replacement, began with devalutation, said emotionally abusive things, etc.  Looking back though, I see the red flags were always there. I just chose to ignore them.

When our relationship started she always talked about how attracted she was to my self-confidence.  She liked the fact that I have had a successful career, make a good living, and that I had won custody of my children in my divorce. She liked that I knew what I wanted and that I pursued it.  In the bedroom, she wanted me to be the dominant, take-charge partner.  She said it really turned her on.

When we broke up, we kept in touch for a while. However, in one of the last conversations we had I finally broke down crying and told her that I did not want it to end and I asked her to "please do not do this".  Her tone suddenly turned cold, distant, and even a little mocking and she simply said "oh please!  Stop begging."

After that, I was truly painted black. She said I was too codependent, too damaged and that I needed to take time for myself (she's a psychologist).  Suddenly I was too broken to be in a relationship with her and I was too weak to be attractive.  She dropped me like a hot potato and was almost immediately back on a dating web site.

It's imortant to see this to get past the preditor / prey thinking.  pwBPD are not predators (strong), they are more like parasites (I hate using that term) in that they are weak and looking for something to hold onto for survival.

I am glad you stated this.  I am not an apologist for BPD's, but I do not think they are evil predator, lurking in the shadows for prey.  Their traits are the results of a lot of early childhood trauma and severe pain.  As much as I am turned off (and terrified) of their behavior, I think it is not consciously intentional.

In my search to understand this experience, to understand my UxBPDgf (whose traits presented so differently from those of my DxBPDw), and identify how and I missed the red flags, I have visited several message boards for people who have been diagnosed with BPD and are aware of their disorder.  What I have read has shown me that these are real people with very, very severe challenges.  They are in deep pain, suffer from the chaos of their emotions, and are tormented by the chaos in their lives.  Many do feel remorse for the loss and destruction of relationships (though how deeply or permanently, I do not know). I found that they understand each other (like we do here) because of their shared experience and trauma.  But I also found their experience to be so alien to me, that I cannot really understand it.

What I have taken away from "hearing" from BPDs is that they are tormented people who live in a private hell. They are constantly struggling to find peace, balance, and happiness.  I left with the feeling that the majority of these people will be prisoners to their past, their pain, and their disorder for most of their lives.  We in this community have the opportunity to heal, to change, and to be healthier and happier.  The very large majority of the people I read about on those BPD message boards do not.

As I have begun to come to grips with the end of my relationship with my UxBPDgf. I am still mourning the loss of my relationship and I still miss the girl (the persona) that I knew and still love.  But since I have peaked into the world of diagnosed BPD sufferers, something has begun to change in me.  Instead of anger, sadness, or even the impulse to save my UxBPDgf, I am feeling compassion for her.  It is detached compassion; I cannot fix her or heal her or save her.  But it is compassion nonetheless.

I still love my girlfriend, by I do not love my UxBPDgf (I distinguish between the two now). Though I do not love the person that my UxBPDgf is today, I feel compassion for my UxBPDgf.  Her disorder will likely always hold her in bondage, so to speak, for the rest of her life.  Her disorder, while destructive to me and to others, will prolong her suffering long after I have found peace.