Reconciliation and Christmas (part 6)

[Depression = 72% of members]

The saga of my wife cheating has been going on over the last couple months. If you want background, you can catch up... .The titles shifted as my feeling about the situation did throughout.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=235769.0;all

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236247.0;all

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236799.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236950.0;all

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=237387.0;all

I just talked to my wife for a half hour or so. After meeting for the first time around Thanksgiving, we decided to spend Christmas together at her dad's place in Florida; She would have liked to spend almost a couple weeks there; I felt that 4-5 days was enough, with a travel day on each side. It is a small conflict, but didn't become any sort of fight.

Today the schedule really came up. She told me she could drive down tomorrow or the next day , and we could go on down for Christmas any day after that.

After a bit of discussion and thinking, she said she would rather drive down before the weekend, so depart my boat on Thursday or Friday. I am fine with that. I did tell her that I was looking forward to spending a day with her before we go down, but otherwise wanted to keep working on boat projects. If she comes down earlier, she is welcome, but I'll be doing my own thing for most of this week.

Whew. That part was easy. Now come the hard things... .most of which have come up in conversation, and I keep suggesting we avoid discussing them on the phone, instead of in person later.

• I said something in passing about having the bed ready; She then said something like "Oh, are we going to sleep together?"
  
  I said that I loved cuddling with her, and was looking forward to that. I later had to steer the conversation away from questions about sex--I want to discuss that face to face.



• My big issue is that I nearly negative trust for the guy she was with, and REALLY don't want to hear about safe sex practices, nor would I necessarily believe it. (She once failed to use a condom... .with reasons... .which were NOT good enough.
  
  My position is that I won't have unprotected sex with her until she has a clean STD test. I haven't told her this yet... .and don't expect it to be particularly well received.
  
  



• Next issue is our boat. It is a joint asset, but we both agree that she has no business in the boatyard with me. Too much conflict, too unhappy for both of us. I've told her that I would prefer it to be mine, rather than ours. When we were discussing splitting, she agreed to let me have it... .but that's not the situation anymore.  We had originally dreamed of going off sailing across oceans together, perhaps around the world. We're reconsidering how or if to do that.
  
  



• She's all over the place on what she wants to do, and where she wants to go. She doesn't actually have a home (other than her car). Traveling around and staying with friends/family works for her in some fashion... .but things are just very unstable for her.
  
  



• I need something to do for me. I've decided I want to sail my boat around to the other coast, and have a very good sailing friend who wants to spend 2-3 months next spring on the journey with me. I originally thought I would rather do it without my wife. Now I'm just realizing that I cannot currently trust my wife to commit to doing the sail with me, and I'm working to make it happen one way or the other, but not depending on her.
  
  



• She just told me today that another guy just told her he had a crush on her.      I know the guy, and saw them together, and I'm in no way surprised about this. My wife is a bit of a flirt, and usually it is all fun and games, and I'm OK with the flirting. At least I like this guy more than the guy she cheated with 
  
  Anyhow, she's a little taken aback... .not because he's got a crush on her, but that he actually told her directly.
  
  We have been polyamorous before (with some success!). The way this works for us, she needs my consent to get involved with another guy.
  
  Fortunately, she is not all too interested in this guy for more than friendship/flirting. Her prior history indicates that she finds a guy being head-over-heels in love with her to be very attractive, even if she isn't particularly attracted to the guy iniitially.
  
  She's aware that she has to do SOMETHING about this. Once he's told her he has a crush on her, outrageous flirting is no longer a stable place. It either backs down to friendship (or less)... .or moves up to the next level, whatever that might be.
  
  Prior to this, we both acknowledged that until we work a few things out, this is a terrible time for either of us to start a new relationship with somebody else!
  
  



• This friend did see her with the guy she cheated with. I know they've been texting or talking a lot. I'll probably ask my wife if she told him any part of that story. ... .Or if she told him that she and I are having serious relationship problems.
  
  

Looks like I'll find some very interesting      gifts under the    Christmas tree!   

Wish me luck!

[Grey Kitty]

The saga of my wife cheating has been going on over the last couple months. If you want background, you can catch up... .The titles shifted as my feeling about the situation did throughout.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=235769.0;all

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236247.0;all

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236799.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236950.0;all

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=237387.0;all

I just talked to my wife for a half hour or so. After meeting for the first time around Thanksgiving, we decided to spend Christmas together at her dad's place in Florida; She would have liked to spend almost a couple weeks there; I felt that 4-5 days was enough, with a travel day on each side. It is a small conflict, but didn't become any sort of fight.

Today the schedule really came up. She told me she could drive down tomorrow or the next day , and we could go on down for Christmas any day after that.

After a bit of discussion and thinking, she said she would rather drive down before the weekend, so depart my boat on Thursday or Friday. I am fine with that. I did tell her that I was looking forward to spending a day with her before we go down, but otherwise wanted to keep working on boat projects. If she comes down earlier, she is welcome, but I'll be doing my own thing for most of this week.

Whew. That part was easy. Now come the hard things... .most of which have come up in conversation, and I keep suggesting we avoid discussing them on the phone, instead of in person later.

• I said something in passing about having the bed ready; She then said something like "Oh, are we going to sleep together?"
  
  I said that I loved cuddling with her, and was looking forward to that. I later had to steer the conversation away from questions about sex--I want to discuss that face to face.



• My big issue is that I nearly negative trust for the guy she was with, and REALLY don't want to hear about safe sex practices, nor would I necessarily believe it. (She once failed to use a condom... .with reasons... .which were NOT good enough.
  
  My position is that I won't have unprotected sex with her until she has a clean STD test. I haven't told her this yet... .and don't expect it to be particularly well received.
  
  



• Next issue is our boat. It is a joint asset, but we both agree that she has no business in the boatyard with me. Too much conflict, too unhappy for both of us. I've told her that I would prefer it to be mine, rather than ours. When we were discussing splitting, she agreed to let me have it... .but that's not the situation anymore.  We had originally dreamed of going off sailing across oceans together, perhaps around the world. We're reconsidering how or if to do that.
  
  



• She's all over the place on what she wants to do, and where she wants to go. She doesn't actually have a home (other than her car). Traveling around and staying with friends/family works for her in some fashion... .but things are just very unstable for her.
  
  



• I need something to do for me. I've decided I want to sail my boat around to the other coast, and have a very good sailing friend who wants to spend 2-3 months next spring on the journey with me. I originally thought I would rather do it without my wife. Now I'm just realizing that I cannot currently trust my wife to commit to doing the sail with me, and I'm working to make it happen one way or the other, but not depending on her.
  
  



• She just told me today that another guy just told her he had a crush on her.      I know the guy, and saw them together, and I'm in no way surprised about this. My wife is a bit of a flirt, and usually it is all fun and games, and I'm OK with the flirting. At least I like this guy more than the guy she cheated with 
  
  Anyhow, she's a little taken aback... .not because he's got a crush on her, but that he actually told her directly.
  
  We have been polyamorous before (with some success!). The way this works for us, she needs my consent to get involved with another guy.
  
  Fortunately, she is not all too interested in this guy for more than friendship/flirting. Her prior history indicates that she finds a guy being head-over-heels in love with her to be very attractive, even if she isn't particularly attracted to the guy iniitially.
  
  She's aware that she has to do SOMETHING about this. Once he's told her he has a crush on her, outrageous flirting is no longer a stable place. It either backs down to friendship (or less)... .or moves up to the next level, whatever that might be.
  
  Prior to this, we both acknowledged that until we work a few things out, this is a terrible time for either of us to start a new relationship with somebody else!
  
  



• This friend did see her with the guy she cheated with. I know they've been texting or talking a lot. I'll probably ask my wife if she told him any part of that story. ... .Or if she told him that she and I are having serious relationship problems.
  
  

Looks like I'll find some very interesting      gifts under the    Christmas tree!   

Wish me luck!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[ReluctantSurvivor]

Best of Luck Grey!  I just wanted to thank you for sharing your story, it has been very helpful for me to hear it.  There are enough similarities with the saga between me and my ex fiance that the hearing your journey has helped me with mine.

Merry Christmas!   

[formflier]

 

Grey,

I like the way you think things through and organize.

The military guy in me says you nee do prioritize your list of issues... .so that if you don't get to them all... you have at least hit the ones that you care about most... .and can deal with the others... ."next time".

I'm going to toss out a suggestion... .I think at some point during this trip... .you should propose/make plans for a next trip and the purpose of the next trip is your r/s...

Nothing about Christmas... .nothing about boats... .nothing about extended family... .just you and her...

Maybe you can organize pictures... journal together... watch sunsets together...

Thoughts... .? 

My hope is that after a couple trips with her... GK will have a "cup full of hope... " for the future of your r/s. 

[Grey Kitty]

Prioritizing is a good idea. I just had a chat with my supportive friend (The captain of "Team Grey Kitty", having shared the same information with her.

She first latched onto the guy who has a crush on my W. Honestly, I'm still not sure what my wife wants to do with this guy... .if anything, but I did come into two conclusions about it:

1. If she decides to do anything but tell this guy gently that she either A) has no interest in a r/s with him right now, or B) Has waaaaaay to much on her plate to even consider getting in a r/s with him... .that is one heck of a vote of No Confidence to our marriage.

2. My wife *IS* doing something to get this level of interest. The response is too consistent for this not to be the case. And it is her issue--she needs to figure out what she's doing, and turn the faucet off. I can't go around catching drips and leaks with towels and buckets all over the place.

And the second issue... .

She's all over the place on what she wants to do, and where she wants to go. She doesn't actually have a home (other than her car). Traveling around and staying with friends/family works for her in some fashion... .but things are just very unstable for her.

The way this is working for my wife is that it is helping her keep running so that she doesn't have to stop and face her own issues. I'm afraid she could do it for a long time.

I'm not sure what kind of a marriage this looks like for me, or how long I can watch it going on.

I may be in the difficult position I've seen many of you here in... .the point of saying "I'm done unless you do something about your mental health."

[formflier]

 

GK,

I agree... .you may be getting close to the decision you described.  I hope not... .but we know that is a possibility.

Questions:


Do you flirt with your wife... ?  My sense is have a certain amount of need to be "chased"... .to be desired... .etc etc... what can you do to "up your game" here. 

I realize this can be complicated... .because of the push pull dynamic with pwBPD... .I can't remember how that dynamic plays in your r/s now.

So... if I understand your feelings... .you are not necessarily against her being with another guy... .it's just that you want to be "stable" with her first... .correct?

If so... what does stable look like?

Last... if you ask her directly... .why do you not have a "home"... .?  What does that answer look like?

[Grey Kitty]

Dodged bullet #1 this morning.

Last night I texted her asking her not to come early (i.e. today) She didn't read the text until she was on the road here... .then called me... .I was on the phone, and got a long voicemail that involved not feeling welcome.

I finally talked to her and explained that IF she came here, I knew I would be distracted from my boat project work. [I already am anyway, but it would be worse!] And I wanted to get more work done. That I wasn't trying to make her feel unwelcome. I manged not to say anything about how much she hates being in the boatyard, and now she wants to spend three days here... .What the heck?

I'll be seeing her either Wed evening or Thurs morning, and have the 4-hour drive with her on Thurs.

I managed to do this without her getting too upset, but I did tell her that I didn't think this topic was a safe one to have while driving... .so she pulled over to finish the conversation, and it did go better from there.

Sigh. Still have to take the lead emotionally to keep things from spiraling out. That part is discouraging.

[Cat Familiar]

Dodged bullet #1 this morning.

Last night I texted her asking her not to come early (i.e. today) She didn't read the text until she was on the road here... .then called me... .I was on the phone, and got a long voicemail that involved not feeling welcome.

I finally talked to her and explained that IF she came here, I knew I would be distracted from my boat project work. [I already am anyway, but it would be worse!] And I wanted to get more work done. That I wasn't trying to make her feel unwelcome. I manged not to say anything about how much she hates being in the boatyard, and now she wants to spend three days here... .What the heck?

Sigh. Still have to take the lead emotionally to keep things from spiraling out. That part is discouraging.

Thinking of you Grey Kitty and wishing you well. What the heck is it with these pwBPD and feeling "unwelcome"? That was a major theme last night at my house.   

[Grey Kitty]

I've grumbled a lot of times that I'm the one who has to take the lead at an emotional level in my relationship. I guess I don't quite accept it as well as I could, or perhaps as well as I have at other times. I still know that my wife will either lead herself in circles, or lead herself down a rabbit hole if I leave her to do so. I should probably be grateful that she does respond well to my lead. Sigh.

This morning I found another place to lead, and it is a hard one. My wife wants to be wooed, appreciated, love bombed, even. Deep in her heart is a hopeless romantic.

It isn't my style. I'm not cold. I'm loving and cuddly, and like to take care of people. Hosever love-bombing doesn't feel natural to me, and the art of romancing a woman or even complimenting her isn't one that comes naturally to me.

Add to that all the other complicated things I'm feeling about my wife. I am VERY aware of all the unresolved conflicts I have with her. I'm also still smarting from her cheating.

So I don't even enthusiasm to do this thing which feels difficult and unnatural to me.

And I know that it would help my marriage if I did it.

[MaroonLiquid]

I've grumbled a lot of times that I'm the one who has to take the lead at an emotional level in my relationship. I guess I don't quite accept it as well as I could, or perhaps as well as I have at other times. I still know that my wife will either lead herself in circles, or lead herself down a rabbit hole if I leave her to do so. I should probably be grateful that she does respond well to my lead. Sigh.

This morning I found another place to lead, and it is a hard one. My wife wants to be wooed, appreciated, love bombed, even. Deep in her heart is a hopeless romantic.

It isn't my style. I'm not cold. I'm loving and cuddly, and like to take care of people. Hosever love-bombing doesn't feel natural to me, and the art of romancing a woman or even complimenting her isn't one that comes naturally to me.

Add to that all the other complicated things I'm feeling about my wife. I am VERY aware of all the unresolved conflicts I have with her. I'm also still smarting from her cheating.

So I don't even enthusiasm to do this thing which feels difficult and unnatural to me.

And I know that it would help my marriage if I did it.

GK, it could be that is the very thing she is looking for from other sources that she isn't getting enough of from you.  I know with all that you have had to deal with, it's not easy to do that.  Do you feel like by doing that it is almost like you are saying her cheating is ok?

[KateCat]

Formflier's questions seem really central to me. For instance, this one : if you ask her directly... .why do you not have a "home"... .?  What does that answer look like?



I wonder if this isn't a really important time of self-definition for you (though perhaps not for your wife). Maybe a true mid-life crisis.

Going forward, do you think that maybe you want a home (other than an a floating one)? And that maybe you want a relationship (other than a polyamorous one)?

I get the feeling you're not quite done working through this tough stuff.

[shatra]

Grey wrote---

I finally talked to her and explained that IF she came here, I knew I would be distracted from my boat project work. [I already am anyway, but it would be worse!] And I wanted to get more work done. That I wasn't trying to make her feel unwelcome.

----Is she actually homeless? I can understand why she would be upset and feel unwelcome if she is homeless and you want to delay her going to your place because you don't want to be distracted. Yet the feeling unwelcome can also be typical BPD feeling unwanted/fearing abandonment.

---Re: her wanting to be wooed and romanced and that not being your style... .it may be a case of different "love languages". If you want to be with her, it might help for you to "Act As If" you are more romantic... .in other words, go thru the motions of flowers, sweet words,, etc. even if it doesn't feel natural.

Shatra

[Crumbling]

Here's my thoughts:  Don't bend.  Don't try ' retending' to be someone else.  Don't make this about her.  This is about you.  This is about what you can take and where your boundaries are.

It sounds like you've taken great strides to get to where you are now, and bending to her whims to win her over sounds like jumping back into the fire.  If she opts to complicate her life further by getting involved in yet another pointless r/s, that's her life she's hurting.  Don't let it be yours too.  Maybe the fact that you have different 'love languages' is just more ammunition to say this r/s is not for me.

I'm where you are... .hurt that I cannot be supported by the one I love.  You are fortunate to have Team Kitty in your bleachers!  I'm proud of you for that.  And maybe a little envious.

You deserve to be loved fully, GK.  Don't forget that.

[Grey Kitty]

her wanting to be wooed and romanced and that not being your style... .it may be a case of different "love languages". If you want to be with her, it might help for you to "Act As If" you are more romantic... .in other words, go thru the motions of flowers, sweet words,, etc. even if it doesn't feel natural.

Thanks for the reminder. I do fake it. I'm having trouble finding the sincerity and motivation today.

GK, it could be that is the very thing she is looking for from other sources that she isn't getting enough of from you.  I know with all that you have had to deal with, it's not easy to do that.

I'm sure of it. I'm also pretty sure that there is a void in her... .that she is looking for external solutions to an internal problem.

Do you feel like by doing that it is almost like you are saying her cheating is ok?

Nope. WANTING that stuff, from me and/or from other guys is OK. (It is a feeling)

Cheating to get it isn't. (it is an action) And for that matter, leading another guy on by flirting shamelessly isn't really OK either... .but that isn't my problem; I'll let her figure it out on her own schedule.

Is she actually homeless? I can understand why she would be upset and feel unwelcome if she is homeless and you want to delay her going to your place because you don't want to be distracted. Yet the feeling unwelcome can also be typical BPD feeling unwanted/fearing abandonment.

Yes, literally she is. For many people, this would be a tragedy with a capital "T". For us, it represents a choice; we've done this sort of thing for months or even years before in our lives. We are also both retired (although our finances probably won't permit staying that way), without regular jobs to go to.) However it is also a problem for us. It gets tiring after a while, and she's just f***ing exhausted. I've been moving around a lot too, and I chose to stay on our boat so I could give myself some stability, which I definitely need right now.

Convincing her that she needs to bite the bullet and spend six months or a year living in one place, or at least on one boat that is moving from place to place is a hard sell. The best I can do is try to sell it softly to her, as we've got too much history of trying to control each other for the hard sell to work. Or tell her that she really needs to address this stuff if she's going to have a chance to make things work with me, because I can't bear to watch her spin her wheels for another six months or year.

The most important reason I tried to keep her away is that SHE is miserable in the boatyard, but doesn't have the emotional resolve to keep herself from coming here and making a mess of things by being so unhappy and spreading misery to me. It would be bad for both of us. I got this text from her last night after she made it to the place she is staying:

Neener, neener. This beats the boatyard all to heck.

[Grey Kitty]

  Thanks, Crumbling!

I'm where you are... .hurt that I cannot be supported by the one I love.  You are fortunate to have Team Kitty in your bleachers!  I'm proud of you for that.  And maybe a little envious.

I am indeed very blessed and fortunate. In addition, I did hard work to get that kind of 'fortune'. "Team Grey Kitty" wasn't built in a day.

"Team Crumbling" won't be either. If it takes a month or a year... .starting today instead of tomorrow will make the day it is there for you one day sooner.

[formflier]

 

Grey,

I've got some gut reactions after I've gone backwards... .and then read back to this point.  The key is (IMO) to stay away from sideshows... and try to see if the "main issue" can be moved forward.

I'm seeing (feeling) two things.

1.  Grey kitty turning into a Tom and chasing his wife for all its worth (push your comfort zone)

2.  Making a decision about this nomadic lifestyle (for now).  It's hard to chase long distance.

I'm going to hush... .and see if there is a reaction... .I've got details... .but don't want to go there... .on the chance I am way off... .not that I've ever been way off before   

[Crumbling]

Point taken, GK!  If my support team had been in place over the last six months, I would not be where I am today.  I see now where I have made decisions along the way that have contributed to my isolation in our relationship.  My first step is talking to my doc, secondly, I do have a friend who has been hinting lately that she is unsettled by some of my BPDh's behaviours that she has seen.  I will call her, as well, and maybe try opening up to her.

ps, Your wife's text sounds so childlike. Is she always that way, or just when she is 'off' and looking for a rise out of you?

[Cat Familiar]

This is a tough one, Grey Kitty. I have a similar issue, on the opposite side of the gender gap in my r/s. My husband would like me to be more girly and feminine and instead he gets a ranch hand.

He gives me jewelry and perfume I forget to wear and when we go out, I've typically alotted only 10 minutes to shower and dress, so no makeup, a quick comb through the hair and I throw on something that's hopefully clean and appropriate.

Fortunately I can get away with the natural look--I have to remind myself to shave my legs in the summer. I've tried to do the girly thing, but I just feel stupid and uncomfortable.

We can try to act outside our nature, but how long can we do something that is not really us?  I get the idea of stretching our boundaries, but when does that go into play acting?

[Grey Kitty]

@Crumbling, did you see my other topic? This comment is part of what inspired it.

And the 'childlike' aka playful tone is common. Knowing her, it came across as happy and silly, not mean and entitled.

FF, the decision about the nomadic lifestyle is complicated, given the other context of our decisions over the last few years. In a nutshell: Ms. GK comes up with all sorts of things she wants to do. GK was not in touch with his own feelings enough to come up with his own ideas. So GK would latch on to the 'good' ideas from Ms. GK, and dig his heels in on the 'bad' ideas from Ms. GK.  Ms. GK felt that GK was always telling her "No" and shutting her down.

My new paradigm is doing the hard work of figuring out what I want, then taking action to make it happen. Part of it is letting my wife make her own choices, and not make them for her.

Balancing this with taking the lead emotionally (as I mentioned earlier) is tough.

I've found the solution I want to being nomadic, which involves staying put while preparing myself for a sailing voyage of a few months, completing the voyage, and then settling down in a new region better suited to grey kitties for somewhere around a year... .more details to be figured out while I'm there.

When it comes to telling (or asking!)  my wife to stop running around in circles chasing her tail from one city to another... .I may need to do this, but I can read the caption on that region of the map very clearly: "Here there be Dragons."

As for being a tomcat. Yes. It is time to step up my game there. It will help my marriage. It will not fill an unfillable void in my wife.

I do like doing SOME of that, and love the way it can melt her when I do. Fortunately, we've come a long way toward healing her ancient history of blaming me for not doing enough of it, and then lashing out at me when I finally did try because it wasn't enough... .and my fear reaction to any time I was somehow obligated to show her some romance/etc.   :'(

[formflier]

We can try to act outside our nature, but how long can we do something that is not really us?  I get the idea of stretching our boundaries, but when does that go into play acting?

The key to this... .is that you are doing it for the right reasons.  Doing it because you just don't want to be yelled at... .naaahhh... .that doesn't sound right.

Doing "it" because you know your partner appreciates it... .feels loved by it... .and "it" is a way you can fill up their "love cup" so it runs over...   Yeah... I like that.

Here is where we need to be careful... .if we are very early in the process of "dealing with" pwBPD traits... .filling a love cup can be very invalidating.  (read that again... .)  If they feel like you hate them... and you are doing lovey things... INVALIDATION. 

Once you have gained knowledge on validation, invalidation and have gotten the r/s to a better place... .IMO... it is time to let them "feel the love".  Because you can now tell when they are in the right mind to appreciate it.

So... pissy and grumbly mood... .take a different tactic. 

If the Grey Kitty takes wife for a sunset walk and she seems to be in a good mood... .the Grey Kitty jumps in a phone booth... and out pops a confident... suave Tom Cat... .and that cat is out for a prowl...



Best imagery I could come up with on short notice... .hope it worked... .

[Grey Kitty]

Update:

Been having some good conversations with her. Not easy, but good.

She's pretty overwhelmed by this visit. She's got an older brother (somewhat disabled) that she loves... .who is demanding of her, and her time. Her dad is aging, slowing down... .and also is demanding of her. And her dad doesn't treat her brother with the sort of kindness and respect that he deserves... .so she tries to deflect things and steer around problems. The other brother is high-drama and hasn't showed up yet. (He won't say when he's coming, either... .adding to the drama!)

She did express that she is sorta used to me being demanding on her time as well, and that I've changed--I'm not doing that.   

We also had an interesting or three about conversation about the guy she's texting/flirting with. At the big picture level, we have some incompatibility of prioritizing values regarding how we handle being polyamorous. When it gets down to specific behavior, we don't disagree as strongly, although we do have one big hot-button area.

My wife is doing stuff, and mostly not acknowledging it to herself (or me) (or the guy she's doing it with). One of the toxic 'games' she has played most of her life is "I'm not doing anything wrong." where deep down, she knows she's playing with fire or breaking the rules, but the situation is a little vague and she can claim/feign innocence. (Her 8th grade example was staring at another girl in class insistently until after the bell rang, the girl beat her up, all the while claiming she did nothing wrong.)

Anyhow... .I'm very sensitive to a feeling I get when she's playing this sort of game. And it is hard not to be confrontational when I point it out to her, because she *IS* rationalizing as hard as she can about something. Anyhow, she just today admitted that she was doing something like an emotional affair with this guy.

There was a lot more to that conversation, and perhaps I'll relate it later... .or anything relevant will show up when the next phase happens.

[Crumbling]

Thanks for the last post, GK.  It's nice to see you understanding, and sharing everything she is dealing with.  You are truly a supportive hubby!  Good job!

Enjoy having people around, and keep focused, and things will go fine.

Blessings, c.